Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

Yes please ignore the people from the same FC who have people that look exactly the same normally are the same job/class and also dress the same. They're either multiboxing or two people with an alt. only other thing I can think of is friends or family that want to add the creepyness factor to their gaming.
Back on topic going to that guy's screen shot. I have had my screen look just like that and not have the window pop up once so how am I supposed to click this button if the silly thing doesn't pop up in the first place? To those who say if the timer is up post 10-15 seconds it's totally means you're getting in is a bunch of crap. I've had the waiting on that last person and have the timer run out do to whatever in between the multiple the person withdrew so fast the commence window didn't even pop up crap that it starts to become annoying. Heck I've had to wait a bit in a full premade group just for the commence window to pop.

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that people are accepting and then withdrawing so fast that you can't click the commence button? Because yeah, that happens. And it's getting really out of hand... >.<

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Best solution is to make the queues separate.

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This. So much this.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Why don't you just do what other games do?

DON'T TELL PEOPLE IF THE INSTANCE IS IN PROGRESS OR NOT.

If you check the mark to "allow in-progress groups" in every single game I've ever played, the game does not effin' tell you where the group is. You just zone in, and then the people in the group tell you where they are.

Don't separate the queues, because that'll just make queue times terrible for everyone.

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I think they should separate them . It takes forever to get a in progress group , im sick of having to withdraw from ones that aren't in progress .

note: I just got Haukke Manor HM (3/4) it took about 5 minutes of fishing for in progress. A lot of withdrawing from not in progress dungeons .

Also I am sorry for people who get que pop ups from people who aren't looking for not in progress games . That is why I hope they separate the ques for everyones piece of mind.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

I think they should separate them . It takes forever to get a in progress group , im sick of having to withdraw from ones that aren't in progress .

note: I just got Haukke Manor HM (3/4) it took about 5 minutes of fishing for in progress. A lot of withdrawing from not in progress dungeons .

Also I am sorry for people who get que pop ups from people who aren't looking for not in progress games . That is why I hope they separate the ques for everyones piece of mind.

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No, you only want separate queues so that you can get in and out quickly. That is NOT what in Progress is for. It is only there to help the stranded. That tank you rep'd, he had to eat a 30 minute time out because he quit... YOU should have to be penalized for your '5 minutes of fishing' too. Haukke Manor HM only takes about 30 mins (or under) with a skilled party. The final boss isn't the dungeon. People who only care to get the final loot/tomes and then get out to do it again are abusing the In-progress feature.

But you know what: If they DO separate the queue, then ironically, BOTH sides will have to wait longer...because I mean, YOU think it's okay to be selfish and only care about grabbing the quick loot/cash at the end, what happens when everyone else thinks the same? Then who's going to do the first 2/3's of the dungeon for you so you can just waltz in and get the easy reward? No one. And if no one enters, then no one can rage-quit. If no one rage-quits, then you can't get an 'in-progress queue'

I'm starting to think that they should just make every mob drop a tome... then people'd actually, I don't know, PLAY the GAME. Not the other players.

But really, they don't need to punish people for spam queuing, they just need to allow you to select like you can now, but make your entrance blind so you don't know what you're getting. Then at least, people like you would have to either clear the dungeon (which takes less than 30 mins many times) or eat a 30 minute penalty.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

they just need to allow you to select like you can now, but make your entrance blind so you don't know what you're getting. Then at least, people like you would have to either clear the dungeon (which takes less than 30 mins many times) or eat a 30 minute penalty.

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You do realize if they didn't show a run was in progress and a tank wanted a almost finished one someone would just force dc just to be kicked from the party log back in with no 30 min debuff and try again if they didn't want a fresh group. Then you be on here complaining about tanks that dc at the start of a fresh run.

If you dc, you get the 30 minute lockout too. I know this because I DC'd in the wolves den and couldn't log back in in time and suffered a 30 minute DF cue penality.

And tanks and healers already DC/abandon at the very beginning of runs...so your point?

I cue almost everyday as a healer/tank 'join party in progress' and get 0/4 as my party and end up at the very beginning of the duty...not a single mob pulled. So your point? People already do this when they use Dungeon Roulette...but at least they are penalized for their behavior.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

If you dc, you get the 30 minute lockout too. I know this because I DC'd in the wolves den and couldn't log back in in time and suffered a 30 minute DF cue penality.

And tanks and healers already DC/abandon at the very beginning of runs...so your point?

I cue almost everyday as a healer/tank 'join party in progress' and get 0/4 as my party and end up at the very beginning of the duty...not a single mob pulled. So your point? People already do this when they use Dungeon Roulette...but at least they are penalized for their behavior.

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No you don't I have dc for 5 min because my internet went out, came back and no timer, because I got vote kicked from the group when i was dced so no lockout.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

No you don't I have dc for 5 min because my internet went out, came back and no timer, because I got vote kicked from the group when i was dced so no lockout.

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Yeah, but if they DID NOT vote kick you, you'd be locked out. So again....DC away. So you got back in because people kicked you NOT because the game actually let you. If you would have re-logged within 5-10 minutes, you'd also still be stuck in that dungeon. (because the game allows a dc'd player to log back into their duty as long as they haven't been kicked/timed out/duty complete)

But the only way to be sure your 'DC plan' will always work, is to stay logged out for 10 minutes. So still enough of a pain that many will not abuse it. At least, not as many who spam hoping for 2/3 completions now. So you'd sooner or later just say screw it, I'll do the bloody run.

So again, the party has an option:
1. Vote Kick the 'Dc'd' player to get a rep. (that player does not get a penalty but I believe we each can only vote kick someone every couple hours...if you are the 2nd+ tank to join, guess what, you're stuck with us until you clear/quit/rage/AFK/DC....and then wait 10 minutes until autokick)
2. Soldier on and see if they come back (contrary to popular belief, you CAN keep going through a dungeon without a tank esp if just killing trash)
3. Let your 10 minute timer wear out and it auto-kicks you from dungeon. (you officially 'abandoned' your duty and got stuck with 30 min penalty)
4. Wait on you. See if you come back. Believe it or not, some people are nice in this game, and believe that people honestly DC and honestly come back.

It was funny yday for the first time i had some tank withdraw more than 20times in a 3min time window (not exagerating at all) ;)

The problem is that there are players that ONLY want to join "in progress" even if they have to wait 30 minutes to get into a group like that.

The logic is flawed today since the queue puts together "in progress" and "new" in the same pot for faster pops.

They should separate the queues. If you want to join "in progress" you will never get a pop for "new dungeon".

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

3 days ban for checking the "Join in progress" box, and wanting to actually join a group in progress?
Are you for real?

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Yes and he's right. I guess you are one of those ranting when the said thing happens all the time.

Either seperating the queues or not showing in progress status.

TBH, I'd be in favour of either.

Seperating the queues won't cause the fresh queues to be longer because it's a natural balancing act: Fewer fresh runs because tanks are in 'In Progress' queue = fewer runs for people to join in progress = In progress queues take longer = Tanks less willing to rage quit because In progress queues take a long time.

If the 'In progress queue isn't as attractive to tanks because the queue is so long, more will join fresh parties.

And as for not showing the 'In progress' status of a queue... I don't really see any possible downsides.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

And as for not showing the 'In progress' status of a queue... I don't really see any possible downsides.

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There are no downsides. Every game I've ever played with an instance matching system did this. You could flag yourself as "able to join an in-progress dungeon," but it would never tell you if it was new or half-completed. You wouldn't find that out until you got in.

Splitting the queues apart completely? No. That just encourages toxic, greed-driven behavior. These people aren't queue fishing to help people finish runs. They just want an easy 50 myth tomes or to snipe that last boss's drop.

"Sickens me"

Really?

This forum would be a much more productive place if we could reign in the emotional hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

That just encourages toxic, greed-driven behavior.

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Seems to me this doesn't need any more encouragement, SE already did that with asinine gear acquisition requirements and dungeon entry mechanics.

In this case it's the back-loading of rewards on the last boss that's crass, they obviously should be spread over the entire dungeon .. except doing that kills pretty much any incentive to join 'in progress' groups, which is presumably why SE end-loaded on the last boss .. which causes the toxic behaviour we have now.

It's an un-squareable circle, fix one thing, break another. Ultimately it's due to SE making gear acquisition such a painfully, drawn-out and tedious process that it encourages people to find the path of least resistance and be jerks to everyone else in the process.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

And as for not showing the 'In progress' status of a queue... I don't really see any possible downsides.

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But wouldn't they just beg for a vote kick (or hold the party hostage by sitting) once they got in and saw they weren't at a point they wanted? That's awful too... and something we know many people would do. :(

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Originally Posted by Sadana

But wouldn't they just beg for a vote kick (or hold the party hostage by sitting) once they got in and saw they weren't at a point they wanted? That's awful too... and something we know many people would do. :(

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Ah, but that's harassment and subject to reporting and possible disciplinary action.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Ah, but that's harassment and subject to reporting and possible disciplinary action.

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True... but HAS anyone been hit with the banhammer after being reported for this?

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Originally Posted by Sadana

But wouldn't they just beg for a vote kick (or hold the party hostage by sitting) once they got in and saw they weren't at a point they wanted? That's awful too... and something we know many people would do. :(

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Report for harassment. Wait them out. They don't get what they want and a they will get a GM visit and/or reprimand.

Even if you do kick them, they flag backup for an in progress run: they get you. There's no way for them to avoid a full run.

Holy cow! I read the first page of this thread and was flabbergasted - folks saw that checkbox, and thought it was a method for expressing PREFERENCE for in-progress runs?

No. Just no. Roulette as a whole is meant for one purpose: To allow people to help other people in need. The rewards you get are an incentive for doing so, not an end in themselves. When you are checking the "in-progress" box, you are saying, "Yes, I'm willing to help out an in-progress run if I'm needed." You are not saying, "I don't have the patience for a full run, so try to add me to a partially finished run."

A change needs to be made, yes. Players can't be allowed to know that they're getting an in-progress run until they accept, and harsher penalties need to be levied for withdrawing, or abandoning a run.

So, some people want an option to skip most of the content of a dungeon and just grab their reward at the end in the fastest way possible...
Yet, most people are complaining about "lack of content" and "fast-food MMO".

That's interesting.

In addition to that, the people who want two separate queues seems to absolutly not understand what will happen. There will be a gap between people who only want to skip the dungeon and rush to get their reward, and "regular people" who just want to do the dungeon.
This will lead to a situation where "regular people" will feel that they are wasting time going through the dungeon while other people are getting profit over their efforts, and so they will just join the "In-progress fishing club" like everyone else.

Problem is: if nobody (or few people) want to start a fresh dungeon anymore, there will be no (or very few) parties "in-progress" to join, making you (in-progress queue people) wait forever. Especially for a DPS slot. Thus, no point doing this.

Yet, it seems that some people are supporting this idea anyway, even if it's really bad and against all form of logic and common sense.

Very interesting.

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Edit: Let's sum' it up, shall we?
http://i.imgur.com/YbxxzRy.jpg

I'm hoping that with over 12K views in about 3 days in this thread alone (and there are many others around), SE will realize that they need to react to this situation sooner rather than later.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

[snip]
Even if you do kick them, they flag backup for an in progress run: they get you. There's no way for them to avoid a full run.

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Yes, the delicious irony.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that people are accepting and then withdrawing so fast that you can't click the commence button? Because yeah, that happens. And it's getting really out of hand... >.<

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That is exactly what I was saying mostly happens during dfing for CT but have had it happen for other places as well.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

But wouldn't they just beg for a vote kick (or hold the party hostage by sitting) once they got in and saw they weren't at a point they wanted? That's awful too... and something we know many people would do. :(

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Maybe, but this is harassment and reportable/totally kickable. Also, you can wait them out. After 10 minutes, the game forces them out. The only way a tank can avoid suffering some sort of penality is a vote-kick.Still in order for this to work, the tank needs to convince you to vote kick him. Which you don't have to do. Anything else he does to purposefully leave the dungeon=30 minute timeout. (40 minutes of waiting if you add the 'AFK' timer if they simply DC/AFK) You can even report him for harassment, but still keep him in the party (not vote kick). So he's still getting a GM call and potential punishment, and you still clear your duty...albeit in a more hostile way.

Honestly, the ONLY reasons this is happening now is because:
1. SE stacked the rewards at the end of most dutys.
2. SE rewards people for queuing as tanks
3. There's a short supply of certain roles (Tank/Healer) that can benefit from 'queue fishing'
4. Tanks and Healers rage-quit instances at a far higher rate than DD's allowing the slots to open up in the first place.
-Lets face it, if tanks weren't rage-quitting parties at an alarming rate (healers too), this ALSO wouldn't be nearly as an effective means of queuing. They only way you can join 'in progress 2/3 is for someone else to have left the group. Tanks and Healers rage-quit at far higher rates than DD's....because well they believe they are 'special' and also they have short queue times and can take the hit for leaving.
5. Some people care more about 'fast gear/points/tomes' than actually playing the game. Or are in such a rush to have 'everything' they don't even think 'gee, I am paying to play...not to look sexy in town' Or they decided they need to gear up 9/9 jobs instead of selectively gearing 1-3ish.
6. But most importantly, while there IS a punishment in place for abandoning a Duty (which some people still of course choose to eat but not as often anymore), there is NO penality for spamming withdraw. It probably would be far easier to just make it so the player couldn't see whether they got 'In Progress' or 'new' despite how they queued than to penalize spamming withdraw, although either method could work.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

True... but HAS anyone been hit with the banhammer after being reported for this?

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They don't need the banhammer for this. That's more than excessive. The 30 minute lock-out is more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Maybe, but this is harassment and reportable/totally kickable. Also, you can wait them out.

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Not according to the devs. The first time I did Garuda HM in df we had a drg go sit in a corner, I reported it, got a reply saying that players are free to engage enemies as they see fit and its not against the tos. So yeah :T

but 30 min timer is nothing to a tank either. think about if they just play tank ya 30 min might be something to them but if they play dd which the wait for a party in DF is 30 to an hour hes already use to it. A dd quitting would have to wait the 30 min to re duty then possible another 30 min to get in were as the tank will get right back in. in the end dd would suffer even more.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

...Also, you can wait them out. ... The only way a tank can avoid suffering some sort of penality is a vote-kick.Still in order for this to work, the tank needs to convince you to vote kick him. ...Which you don't have to do. You can even report him ...and you still clear your duty...albeit in a more hostile way....

They don't need the banhammer for this... The 30 minute lock-out is more than enough.

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Ummm... I would only see the run as potentially successful if there was a SMN with Titan in the party. Otherwise, how are you going to successfully complete the dungeon with the tank sitting on their butt at the entrance? Or worse yet, the healer.

By ban-hammer I suppose I mean more something like probation. The offender would cool their heels for a couple days.

As mentioned upstream, the tank has an instant queue, what's a thirty minute cooldown? DPS are lucky to get into any dungeon within that time frame.

Solution could be to remove the need for tanks from the game like in guild wars 2 . Since most problems are occurring with tanks. In GW2 there is no problem .

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

No, there should NOT be 2 cues.

Look again, and I don't know how to make this more clear:

Join in Progress IS NOT, a speed to the end/get to skip a boss or 2 card. It was NEVER intended to used for such purposes or intended to be a 'skip' button. It was a 'sure, I don't mind helping' button. It was actually intended to help out groups who got stuck or abandoned. Therefore, there should NOT be 2 cues. Because the reality is you should always plan on starting from the beginning of any Duty you join. That is how each dungeon was intended to be played. So no, there should not be 2 cues because the whole point of 'Join In Progress', which is to HELP others, is lost then.

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Originally Posted by Tridus1x

They need to separate the in progress queue in order to fix the problem. Any other suggestion is ignorant and childish and spawned out of pure entitlement. That 3 day ban? Ha! What a joke. The emotions of a child crying when they don't get their way.

News flash- That 3 day ban means that nobody gets the tank that wanted to queue, so you are hurting other players experience in order to cater to your own. Pathetic OP.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Best solution, and imo easiest to implement is to not show the progress of the dungeon whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Don't separate the queues, because that'll just make queue times terrible for everyone.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

There are no downsides. Every game I've ever played with an instance matching system did this. You could flag yourself as "able to join an in-progress dungeon," but it would never tell you if it was new or half-completed. You wouldn't find that out until you got in.

Splitting the queues apart completely? No. That just encourages toxic, greed-driven behavior. These people aren't queue fishing to help people finish runs. They just want an easy 50 myth tomes or to snipe that last boss's drop.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

This will lead to a situation where "regular people" will feel that they are wasting time going through the dungeon while other people are getting profit over their efforts, and so they will just join the "In-progress fishing club" like everyone else.

Problem is: if nobody (or few people) want to start a fresh dungeon anymore, there will be no (or very few) parties "in-progress" to join, making you (in-progress queue people) wait forever. Especially for a DPS slot. Thus, no point doing this.

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There are a multitude of key points that people seem to fail to grasp.

• The in-progress parties that have lost a member should be top priority in the queue.
• One of the reasons that parties lose members is because they are failing to progress in the duty at a reasonable pace.
• The long queues exist only because there is a disproportionate number of DPS compared to tanks and healers. This is the root cause of these problems, and it is created by the DPS themselves. We can't address this issue, obviously, but people need to be aware that this is very much a player-community-caused problem.
  

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

I think they should separate them . It takes forever to get a in progress group , im sick of having to withdraw from ones that aren't in progress.

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Thank you for the voice of reason.

I am sick and tired of people saying "make in-progress separate' as a solution to the problem.

Things will only get WORSE. People will not join at the beginning thus making groups that start at the beginning rare as all hell. Its a catch 22.

Leave a loophole and only the really unscrupulous people will make use of it. Make it a legit thing and MORE people will do it.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.
Thank you for the voice of reason.

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What don't people understand? We've already discussed a multitude of times that two separate queues wouldn't work. It'd actually slow down parties being made, and is rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR. Queue in progress is to HELP people, NOT YOURSELF. A blind queue system with the OPTION to *queue in progress* is the best answer by far. This means people will click commence either way, priority on "in progress" groups will be there, and if the tank so chooses to click the *in progress* button, they'll get in one as it opens.

Griefers will be griefers, and deliberately afking/logging out is douche behavior that deserves ban time. In progress dungeons is not for the tanks convenience, it is to help the unfortunately stranded groups.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Thank you for the voice of reason.

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Thumbs up for knowing what you're talking about instead of spouting some altruistic crap about how we should all help each other and be self-sacrificial. Thanks for living in the real world and not in a utopian dream world. :)

Honestly, WoW's LFG system works. It took years of refinement, but the features in place work for a reason. Too bad mentioning WoW is sacreligious here.
-Prioritize in-progress groups
-Queue system needs to be reworked so that the party does not scrap when one person withdraws
-Satchel Rewards for Tank/Healer when they're in demand
-Hide progress so the person queueing does not know how far into the dungeon they are
-When queueing as group, people cannot leave at start of dungeon (no more selling tank queues)

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Originally Posted by Archona

Thumbs up for knowing what you're talking about instead of spouting some altruistic crap about how we should all help each other and be self-sacrificial. Thanks for living in the real world and not in a utopian dream world. :)

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I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:

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Originally Posted by Archona

Honestly, WoW's LFG system works. It took years of refinement, but the features in place work for a reason. Too bad mentioning WoW is sacreligious here.
-Prioritize in-progress groups
-Queue system needs to be reworked so that the party does not scrap when one person withdraws
-Satchel Rewards for Tank/Healer when they're in demand
-Hide progress so the person queueing does not know how far into the dungeon they are
-When queueing as group, people cannot leave at start of dungeon (no more selling tank queues)

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We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

When someone checks Join in Progress, it should mean they are willing to join a group in progress, not they are looking to join a group in progress. Once you establish that, don't reveal whether a group is starting fresh or in progress until you actually get into the dungeon. If you wanna quit then, great, 30 minute timer. Currently the system encourages people to look for groups in progress. You can't really expect people to not wanna do half a dungeon when their goal is just the myth or drop at the end when the game makes it easy to have that mentality.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:



We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

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Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Traek

What don't people understand? We've already discussed a multitude of times that two separate queues wouldn't work. It'd actually slow down parties being made, and is rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR. Queue in progress is to HELP people, NOT YOURSELF. A blind queue system with the OPTION to *queue in progress* is the best answer by far. This means people will click commence either way, priority on "in progress" groups will be there, and if the tank so chooses to click the *in progress* button, they'll get in one as it opens.

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I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS, which would be incredibly unfair). Therefore, we need MORE incentives (MORE than allowing for fishing) to solve this problem.

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, we need more people to stop playing DPS and start playing tanks and healers.

Stopping queue fishing is just patching up a symptom of a greater problem, which is role imbalance. We need more incentives for tanks and healers, not less.

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Originally Posted by Archona

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

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Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

To be honest it wouldn't be that bad to have blind queues. But you have to make up for that lost incentive in some other way. We can solve the frustrating problem of queue fishers and cancelled queues, but if tanks and healers simply aren't queuing anymore, we need to encourage them. Your idea of satchel rewards would likely work, kind of with the duty roulette 'in-demand' role, but something more substantial besides a few hundred gil.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.

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Good.
Nobody wants to play a MMO surrounded by selfish people who just want to skip the content and eat another piece of their fast-food MMO.
They can go away.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

There are a multitude of key points that people seem to fail to grasp.

• The in-progress parties that have lost a member should be top priority in the queue.
• One of the reasons that parties lose members is because they are failing to progress in the duty at a reasonable pace.
• The long queues exist only because there is a disproportionate number of DPS compared to tanks and healers. This is the root cause of these problems, and it is created by the DPS themselves. We can't address this issue, obviously, but people need to be aware that this is very much a player-community-caused problem.
  

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.

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No, the ONLY reason there is a tank/healer slot open for your 2/3 progress queue in the first place is typically because after a wipe or something stupid happened...something that might not have even been the fault of a remaining party member, the Tank/healer left them. After 1 mistake. Or after entering and seeing 'someone is new' or the have the wrong 'type' of DD for that dungeon etc.

Again, the DF is get this, NOT the only way to queue up for content. You can form your own parties to your own expectations....but even this doesn't happen as much anymore because that takes tanks and healers willing to start>finish an instance, and since as you say, they get rewarded for skipping most of the dungeon, less and less tanks/healers are even willing to party up with their own friends/FC's to do this content.


What you really want is this:

1. Reward-spread stays the same in each instance (so best reward still at end)
2. You have queue options:
-Start at beginning
-2/3
-and maybe an 'I feel like helping someone, randomly assign me where most needed'

because that's how you are treating it. So how about this. If tanks and healers can continue to abuse 'Join in Progress' than from now on, so can everyone else. EVERYONE can cue for 2/3 of every dungeon. It's just a checkbox.
Oh but wait...that will now make the DF lines long for the 'skippers' and that isn't cool?

That's basically what happens if you separate the queues...even if it isn't listed that way, and only as 'Fresh' and 'In progress' by dividing up the players, at MOST you only have half as many people to party with (because now the only people who can unlock the instance are those selecting 'start', and those waiting in the 'in-progress queue will only be able to enter if one of the starters leave...So now, you have less people to select from to actually start and unlock the Duty but MORE people waiting for someone to rage quit so everyone will have longer queue times (especially, and most amusingly for the 'Join in Progress' folk).

Not only that, the reason Tanks and Healers can even abuse this feature currently is because their counterparts who DID queue at the duty entrance, did most of the dungeon and then for whatever reason (probably a modest party mistake...one mistake), got all princessy and left, not concerned about their 30 min lockout. Why? because they can queue instantly after their 30 minutes is up...many times for an in progress party and so they can save time/spend the same amount of time and still 'punish noobs' or 'not have to deal with stupidity'

You understand that the only way and 'In-progress' entrance window can pop is because some group of 4 or 8 entered that instance from the start right? And without enough people reliably and consistantly doing that, the whole 'join in progress' feature wouldn't even work? So separating out the queues not only hurts those wishing to do a full run, but it hurts the 'skippers' too. So those who DO want to be able to join 'in-progress' groups actually benefit more from the 'blind entry' plan over the 'separate queues plan'. Because if it's blind, sure people might leave when it's not 'the spot they wanted to queue at'....but them leaving=your opening. Separating the queues just makes the 'In-progress' function broken and useless. (Because either too many people will use it=loooooong queue times or no one will=stranded parties)