Dark Knight Megathread

Would have to make Fray appear in some form though, or else the level 80 DRK quest wouldn't make much sense.

Quote:

---

引用元：Absurdity

Let's be honest, both Living Shadow and Automaton Queen may look flashy but they're essentially glorified DoTs with some extra clunkyness.

I wouldn't shed a tear if they were replaced by something else.

---

Like scourge maybe

cries

What are people's expectations for 6.2?

I know they just changed Blood Weapon and LD, but them saying they're going into 6.2 looking to reduce button bloat makes me think they're going to adjust DRK further.

I haven't played a lot of jobs but the difference between playing Warrior and DRK in dungeons is night and day, the amount of fucking weaving you have to do on DRK feels awful.
I'm aware that dungeons aren't very hard, but even for casual players- having to pop all that mitigation on top of the amount of weaving you have to do must be shit for them.

Oblation which is only really worth using if you in turn weave THAT with another defensive feels like a joke.

IMO they should just kill off Salted Earth, even with the changes I think it just feels stupid to use, it does nothing of note and I'd rather they just got rid of it instead of tack more stuff onto it.
They could make it heal like in PvP but I still think that'd just be kinda stupid, if you have to move then you just lose that healing- I'd rather they put lifesteal or some sort of regen onto an actual attack instead of a puddle you have to stand in.
Alternatively, if they really want to keep it they could maybe combine it with Abyssal Drain like Xeno one suggested. Make AD drop the puddle under whatever it hits, but even then it would probably still just be inconsequential.

Shadowbringer being how it is feels so boring and having two charges just contributes to the OGCD clusterfuck, I feel like a cool ability like that would be better off as a GCD.
I'm fully in support of differentiating DRK from Warrior, but it feels like it should be a delirium finisher like Primal Rend, wouldn't be ideal but it'd be a band-aid to reduce bloat for now.
IMO they should rework it but I'm not expecting to see that for 6.2.

The OP lists a lot of problems that still remain and I agree 100%, but I wouldn't expect any of those to be resolved in 6.2.


They'll fix it in 7.0 /cope

Quote:

---

引用元：Nosaji_

What are people's expectations for 6.2?

---

They are mainly going to be looking at DRG. Woe betide anything other than a dps get positive adjustments past a X.1 patch unless a job is literally unplayable (eg sch getting energy drain returned because it doesn't function without it, monk after it was abandoned completely they had to go back to ARR monk until EW)
The track record and mix of apathy and hatred the devs have on healers means Ast's changes are either going to be meaningless or worse in all likelihood. Maybe a sensible button merge but don't get your hopes up as undraw is still around after 7 years.

If they could do anything for drk, its bring back more combo finishers to make it closer to 3.0 or 4.0's drk rather than discount warrior, split CnS and AD again, make TBN or Oblation have a cure or lifesteal buff etc
There's loads they could do with drk to make it better. It requires them to put effort in like they do with blm.

Quote:

---

引用元：Recon1o6

If they could do anything for drk, its bring back more combo finishers to make it closer to 3.0 or 4.0's drk rather than discount warrior

---

Fucking please.

I started playing Warrior recently and now DRK just feels like playing Warrior but without the good bits, It's so sad because I'll still say that I love DRK and that it's my favorite job, despite the state it's in.

I didn't play DRK back in the day but I've spent time looking at it's old kit and it looks like it was infinitely more engaging;
BW giving haste, Delirium giving you MP as well as extending BW and Blood Price, Scourge, Darkside (not the complete joke that we have now), I could go on.
(Also why did they decide to keep the Souleater animation instead of Power Slash??)

I agree that there's a lot they could do, but yeah, I don't think we'll see any of it until 7.0 sadly :(

Quote:

---

引用元：Nosaji_

What are people's expectations for 6.2?

---

I legit expect nothing, but if they were going to do anything for DRK I'd like for them to make Salt and Darkness a trait that causes damage on the initial Salted Earth cast instead of something you have to press, and trade out Enhanced Unmend for an ACTUAL skill/trait instead of a joke.

Quote:

---

引用元：RyuDragnier

I'd like for them to make Salt and Darkness a trait that causes damage on the initial Salted Earth cast instead of something you have to press

---

That'd be an improvement, I can see them doing that if they're trying to reduce bloat.

Enhanced unmend is stupid, I was reclearing E12 for mounts after the EW release and I used unmend while she jumped away during a Cataclysm and I thought I was lagging or something because I saw my Plunge CD jump.
I genuinely forgot the trait existed, and tbh I'd forgotten again until now :p

Quote:

---

引用元：RyuDragnier

I legit expect nothing, but if they were going to do anything for DRK I'd like for them to make Salt and Darkness a trait that causes damage on the initial Salted Earth cast instead of something you have to press, and trade out Enhanced Unmend for an ACTUAL skill/trait instead of a joke.

---

Placing more potency on the initial cast would just make the skill more finnicky... merely to avoid some 0.67 apm.

If we're going to go the route of reducing raw APM, which I don't think there's any reason to anyways, I'd far rather have Shadowbringer deal an extra Edge's worth of potency, with its falloff slightly increases as to net only an extra Flood's worth in AoE, and cost 3k MP. That reduces our 2-minute burst oGCDs to weaves far more significantly, makes our capstone ability more punchy, and does not cost us functionality.

Quote:

---

引用元：Nosaji_

What are people's expectations for 6.2?

---

Literally nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs consider it "fixed" now that Blood Weapon is on stacks and Living Dead has a minuscule chance of killing the DRK. It still needs work, but I honestly doubt they give a fuck. As Recon mentioned, the devs are already looking to ruin DRG and AST come 6.2 so DRK will probably be ignored until 7.0 where they get a trait called Enhanced Unmend+ that reduces the cooldown of Plunge by 10s.

Quote:

---

引用元：Nosaji_

I didn't play DRK back in the day but I've spent time looking at it's old kit and it looks like it was infinitely more engaging;
BW giving haste, Delirium giving you MP as well as extending BW and Blood Price, Scourge, Darkside (not the complete joke that we have now), I could go on.
(Also why did they decide to keep the Souleater animation instead of Power Slash??)

---

On paper it looks cool as hell, even though I've heard plenty of people said it was janky in some areas. Makes me wish there were private servers so I could see for myself.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...k-Knight-Guide

Dark Arts had an animation lock every time you used it. It was kinda jank

Quote:

---

引用元：Oizen

Dark Arts had an animation lock every time you used it. It was kinda jank

---

Just remove the animation lock then, no need to throw the baby with the bathwater...

Quote:

---

引用元：Oizen

Dark Arts had an animation lock every time you used it. It was kinda jank

---

Dark Arts had no more animation lock than any other (non-movement) oGCD.

Quote:

---

引用元：Oizen

Dark Arts had an animation lock every time you used it. It was kinda jank

---

It wasn't an animation lock, we just stopped moving to admire it.

DRK Blood weapon change did help a lot. It still has that problem of being very loose on whether you can fit using all your defense cooldowns and offense cooldowns properly on rotation. They fixed a few things, but what it needs is to have the actions reduced. Most likely they didn't cut actions yet because they wanted to see how the blood weapon change and living dead change impact things.

Quote:

---

引用元：Oizen

Dark Arts had an animation lock every time you used it. It was kinda jank

---

Dark Arts and Plunge had some of the shortest animation locks in the game after.... 4.4, wasn't it? Somewhere along that line. It made things look pretty awkward but the gameplay was so much better.

Quote:

---

引用元：Colt47

They fixed a few things, but what it needs is to have the actions reduced. Most likely they didn't cut actions yet because they wanted to see how the blood weapon change and living dead change impact things.

---

The question is, what actions could they remove?

I mean, I'm a fan of reworking Oblation into a trait on TBN, and I could potentially see them reworking Blood Weapon into a lower-level form of Delirium since they have the same CD and a similar niche (sorry to fans of their animations).

But as far as damage tools go, there's not much to cut; we're already Warrior-lite. Dark Mind and Dark Missionary may be underwhelming, but they should at worst be reworked or replaced, not removed from the action count.
You could maybe cut Carve & Spit and just bump up AD's damage on the first target to compensate? But I can't think of anything else.

they could fuse Flood and Edge, not a change on rotation really, but saves a button, especially now that there is another line AoE in Shadowbringer...

Square already does a good job of cutting abilities without us encouraging it, they should be looking at how to spread our actions out through the rotation rather than keeping them concentrated in our opener.

Quote:

---

引用元：baklava151

On paper it looks cool as hell, even though I've heard plenty of people said it was janky in some areas. Makes me wish there were private servers so I could see for myself.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...k-Knight-Guide

---

It was janky for sure but that was also due to a combination of battle design and job design clashing. DRK could DA+dark passenger for a blind on enemies but blind enemies means they hit you less and you want to get hit more since parries procs your low blows. Its things like that where on paper its good but in execution its a bit of a wash. I think that was my biggest complaint for losing the actions. Its not that they were redundant but rather they had some of the coolest animations. DA is what I think of when I think of DRK similar to how I think of IR for WAR, HG for PLD. It's thematically relevant.

Imo 4.0 DRK was the closest to "fixing" DA and all they needed to do was remove siphon strike from being altered by DA, or, apply the stack system to DA where you get x amount of stacks and appropriate actions just use it up automatically.DA could have worked as a stack system if it was on a 1 min cd and put to two charges. For example:

Dark Arts:
-60 sec recast
-Grants 3 stacks of Dark Arts, 15 sec duration
-2 charges

Actions affected by Dark Arts:
-Syphon Strike = increased mp regen
-Souleater = increased damage, action changed to power slash
-Stalwart Soul = increased damage, reduce recast of abyssal drain (and C&S) by 5 secs
-Unmend = increased enmity, reduce recast plunge by 5 secs

Abilities affected by Dark Arts:
-Dark Mind = increased from 20% to 30% mag reduction
-Abyssal Drain = cure potency increased to 400
-Carve and Spit = Restore additional MP
-Dark Missionary = Increased from 10% to 15% mag reduction

In most scenarios you would use up 2/3 stacks just doing your single target rotation once. Which leaves one stack to use for an ogcd. You could alternatively just use it on gcds. That would be 3 single target or 6 aoe combos. The increased mp regen means that the penalties of failing TBN, i.e. wasting 3k mp, is mitigated slightly. It's also a throwback to 4.0 where you would double weave SS and C&S with DA but now that its a stack system its much easier to use. It also mirrors WAR and keeps with the design of the jobs going forward. Both have a 60 sec cd that their toolkit revolves around, yet both are very different. This would also make designing DRK going forward since there is a precedent set.

I hated SB's DA with a passion, due to the insane MP generation and the fact that most of its defensive purposes were stripped from it. Should they bring back DA, it needs to be like Eukrasia, meaning less a straight potency use and more of something that adjusts what the move actually does. Example, if they made it so you got Oblation early, it's a straight 10% damage mitigation normally. However, if you DA it, it turns into Dark Mind, giving the 20% magical damage mitigation instead. Using DA with Unleash changes it to Salted Earth. Using DA with Unmend turns it into Abyssal Drain. Etc etc. Meaning DA should be altering moves and possibly be on a stack system.

Quote:

---

引用元：Marxam

Dark Arts:
-60 sec recast
-Grants 3 stacks of Dark Arts, 15 sec duration
-2 charges

Actions affected by Dark Arts:
-Syphon Strike = increased mp regen
-Souleater = increased damage, action changed to power slash
-Stalwart Soul = increased damage, reduce recast of abyssal drain (and C&S) by 5 secs
-Unmend = increased enmity, reduce recast plunge by 5 secs

Abilities affected by Dark Arts:
-Dark Mind = increased from 20% to 30% mag reduction
-Abyssal Drain = cure potency increased to 400
-Carve and Spit = Restore additional MP
-Dark Missionary = Increased from 10% to 15% mag reduction

In most scenarios you would use up 2/3 stacks just doing your single target rotation once. Which leaves one stack to use for an ogcd.

---

The problem with the system as you've written it though, is that it pits utility against optimization; despite the intent, as long as any of the options contribute to damage and the others do not, most of these options will in fact be avoided with DA active, unless the alternative is overstacking/wasting them, or imminent death.

Quote:

---

引用元：Archwizard

The problem with the system as you've written it though, is that it pits utility against optimization; despite the intent, as long as any of the options contribute to damage and the others do not, most of these options will in fact be avoided with DA active, unless the alternative is overstacking/wasting them, or imminent death.

---

Yep. It's why I'm heavily against the potency uses of it alone. If DA is to return, it must ONLY be to alter the move into something else, like how Eukrasia changes Prognosis from a heal to a shield heal.

here's what i'd like to see

first off TBN should be purely a CD based defensive ability still proccing edge of shadow (or hell i'd even argue shadowbringer now)

secondly make blood weapon and delirium cost darkside timer to use (15-20seconds per ability) (actually giving it a use and a reason to actually refresh it)

thirdly as a counter balance and to help not change opener too much i would add an ogcd that gives darkside by itself on a relatively long CD so it's usable every say 4 mins basically still allow you to prepull blood weapon and delirium if you so choosed, also allows you to recover after death alot easier

defensively we're fine tbh although i would like C&S to have a decent heal tied to it since they wanna tie it and abyssal drain together

my changes are more so aimed at creating a constant engine for DRK there's always something to do some form of generating and spending resources you spend MP to get blood weapon and delirium up which not only help your guage go up but replenish the MP you spent getting hte darkside then you spend the MP to generate the darkside needed for bloodweapon/delirium leaving the guage more for esteem (which is a whole nother story) and delirium off time cause delirium would still be on a decently long CD (40seconds) and blood weapon being more spammable so to speak (20 second CD so there is some downtime and helps you fill the guage during hte delirium downtimes)

esteem if he's gonna use a preset rotation should grant all beneficial effects to you. that should've been done when it was released (or make him only copy our moves after a slight delay)

they can further improve on this system by adding more spenders that in return give another resource to help you achieve an engine you're still 1-2-3ing but now have something to keep you busy during downtime while still being able to optimize for burst windows that to me is DRKs biggest downfall rn is nothing to do outside of our 1min burst and 2 min burst windows

Honestly just take notes from pvp. TBN having no mp cost. Quietus and bloodspiller restoring HP. But sadly we wont see real change until 7.0

Quote:

---

引用元：Derio

TBN having no mp cost.

---

I don't get why people make this out to be some huge deal. Yes, it adds a small learning requirement, but you're basically never going to be capable of fewer than 3 TBN pops per minute of uptime (and with time to spare). Removing that MP cost would make it feel even more finnicky and dependent on boss damage; or, alternatively, you then have to remove DA, removing your ability to shift your overflow MP back into/under raid buffs (granted, that difference is far slighter now that Trick Attack-as-raid-buff has been turned into the 2-min-CD Mug).

And having its procced DA bypass an HP cost on a damaging oGCD is still giving it potency value, identical to the current MP refund. It makes no difference save that now you have to loop healers into your offensive loop.

Quote:

---

Quietus and bloodspiller restoring HP.

---

This, on the other hand? Absolutely. There's no reason for us not to have that. We average fewer than 6 Blood spenders per minute. Slapping a 300-potency heal onto each would merely bring us nearer to parity with PLD's free self-sustain. And it'd be so damn easy to implement.

Quote:

---

引用元：Shurrikhan

I don't get why people make this out to be some huge deal. Yes, it adds a small learning requirement, but you're basically never going to be capable of fewer than 3 TBN pops per minute of uptime (and with time to spare). Removing that MP cost would make it feel even more finnicky and dependent on boss damage; or, alternatively, you then have to remove DA, removing your ability to shift your overflow MP back into/under raid buffs (granted, that difference is far slighter now that Trick Attack-as-raid-buff has been turned into the 2-min-CD Mug).

And having its procced DA bypass an HP cost on a damaging oGCD is still giving it potency value, identical to the current MP refund. It makes no difference save that now you have to loop healers into your offensive loop.


This, on the other hand? Absolutely. There's no reason for us not to have that. We average fewer than 6 Blood spenders per minute. Slapping a 300-potency heal onto each would merely bring us nearer to parity with PLD's free self-sustain. And it'd be so damn easy to implement.

---

TBN already is only used while wall to wall pull or during raidwides/TBs (and on rare occasions use to fit four+ edge of shadows into burst window but that depends on factors) cause if you risk it not popping it's a DPS loss cause that 3k mana is wasted it's why the can apply to another party member is never used outside of like OT shielding MT for TB. with you making it purely a CD based DR like almost every other tanks low CD DR and you now not only benefit when you get it to go off but you're more encouraged to shield others cause if it doesn't pop oh well at least you didn't actively lose DPS it's now DPS neutral with proper usage giving you a DPS increase

Quote:

---

引用元：pikalovr

you now not only benefit when you get it to go off when you get it to go off but you're more encouraged to shield others cause if it doesn't pop oh well

---

That is not how balance works.

You do not get up to 4 free Edge/Flood per minute via your defensive at no cost to your potency per minute budget elsewhere.

Just as with Third Eye (save that you'd be making 1840 potency per minute dependent on this, up from Samurai's current 240 ppm), if given the capacity to acquire 4 Dark Arts procs per minute, you then become balanced around that (or, however many DA procs per minute the devs feel is reasonable, which will probably be more than you want to desync TBN timings from defensive use to get more free offensive potency value out of, regardless).

Moreover, not getting a free edge is just as much a loss as not having Edge refunded. It makes no difference; they are identical DPS losses.

Quote:

---

引用元：Shurrikhan

This, on the other hand? Absolutely. There's no reason for us not to have that. We average fewer than 6 Blood spenders per minute. Slapping a 300-potency heal onto each would merely bring us nearer to parity with PLD's free self-sustain. And it'd be so damn easy to implement.

---

Isn't 300 potency a tad bit too weak? Why not a 400 potency instead? Paladin's damaging spells have a 400 potency heal, and the only limit is their mana pool.

Quote:

---

引用元：Shurrikhan

That is not how balance works.

You do not get up to 4 free Edge/Flood per minute via your defensive at no cost to your potency per minute budget elsewhere.

Just as with Third Eye (save that you'd be making 1840 potency per minute dependent on this, up from Samurai's current 240 ppm), if given the capacity to acquire 4 Dark Arts procs per minute, you then become balanced around that (or, however many DA procs per minute the devs feel is reasonable, which will probably be more than you want to desync TBN timings from defensive use to get more free offensive potency value out of, regardless).

Moreover, not getting a free edge is just as much a loss as not having Edge refunded. It makes no difference; they are identical DPS losses.

---

no actually i pretty much only use TBN for extra edges/not overcapping it's not needed at all for defensives which is why you want to push it as a party tool compared to a shield for yourself. also if you're just gonna refund the mana anyways if shield doesn't pop why not just make it free? also you say that they'd balance around it with only potency changes but there's other ways of balancing it simply add 5-10 extra seconds to CD (bringing it more inline with other tanks low CD DRs) or instead of giving the proc outright make it instead restore the MP that would be required for a edge of shadow or hell if that is still considered too strong make it half a edge of shadow MP return. you could get two procs of thge MP gain under buff window cause most buff windows are only 20seconds. also it would give you more reason to actually use edge of shadows wduring downtime knowing you can get the MP back or two procs every 40-50 seconds (30 if you wanna take the 1.5kMP return route instead). which is well worth the trade off of it basically never being a damage loss

when you talk about damage loss damage neutral and damage gain you talk about it from both the worst and best scenario possible like old TBN is damage gain at best (getting those 4+ edges under party buff window) and damage loss at worst (purely cause you're eating the resources necessary for a damaging skill). this TBN would remain DPS neutral at worst (cause you're not eating the reources necessry to do what you would anyways.) and a DPs gain at best (cause you're replenishing a resource that is used for your damage and with some shenanigans depending on the route you take balance wise you can still be hitting 4+ edge of shadows per party buff window)

Quote:

---

引用元：pikalovr

no actually i pretty much only use TBN for extra edges/not overcapping it's not needed at all for defensives which is why you want to push it as a party tool compared to a shield for yourself. also if you're just gonna refund the mana anyways if shield doesn't pop why not just make it free?

---

You just answered your own question. It takes a would-be overcap that would have occurred outside of raid buffs and allows you to move the potency it affords into raid buffs.

But again, the question isn't whether or not it should be free. So long as any offensive proc is tied to it, it literally can't be; any potency it'd then make "free" would have already been siphoned from other parts of your kit, nerfed in turn. The question is whether you want it to (A) have a shorter cooldown and (B) offensive procs.

If no, then homogenize it, like all else. If yes, then retain its MP cost; that system is actually far less complicated than just about any other suggestion seen across this megathread attempting to "fix" it.

Quote:

---

this TBN would remain DPS neutral at worst (cause you're not eating the reources necessry to do what you would anyways.) and a DPs gain at best

---

Again, that's not a thing unless you purposely ignore the surrounding kit. Imagine if Samurai's Third Eye was similarly buffed by 360% (DA's value relative to its own), to instead grant 40 or 50 Kenki per pop. Do you honestly expect that SAM wouldn't be tuned down as a result of that extra ~800 potency per minute?

If you waste the potential for dealing extra damage, that is not damage-neutral in practice. It's a damage loss. We can't exactly excuse blowing all our oGCDs late, outside of raid buffs, on the mere basis that they were free damage anyways.

Quote:

---

引用元：BlackLion3173

Isn't 300 potency a tad bit too weak? Why not a 400 potency instead? Paladin's damaging spells have a 400 potency heal, and the only limit is their mana pool.

---

EDIT: As RyuDragnier reminded me below, PLD's Divine Magic Mastery II trait also affects Confiteor and its follow up combo.

400 or even 500 would be fine. We don't have much of a flexibility advantage over PLD, after all. Though Req/Conf heals are wholly untimeable, thus largely going to waste, Bloodspiller heals wouldn't be much more flexible, but still significantly advantaged. At some 5.8 Bloodspillers per minute, 400 would put us at ~2320 free cppm, and 500 at ~2900, either of which seem reasonable.

(Original post below)
Because of the number of healing attacks done per minute -- or, more importantly, their total cure potency per minute (cppm).

PLD gets just under 4 heals per minute for a total of ~1600cppm. We'd get 5 or 6 Bloodspillers per minute, depending on the particular minute. That'd be 1500 to 1800cppm. Slap at least an Abyssal Drain's worth of cure potency, quite reasonably, onto Carve and Spit, and we'd be at 2000cppm. That's enough already for parity with all but the great and glorious outlier, who should probably be reined back slightly anyways.

I always felt that DRK should be more similar to Paladin than anything else, it is meant to be a magical tank after all.
Tacking a heal onto Bloodspiller would be nice but it would probably feel a bit dull, although I haven't got any better ideas rn.

Also, I don't think having Bloodspiller or CnS heal you would be enough, using Bloodspiller for healing would be a potential damage loss since you could be holding it for buffs, and CnS is used in your burst.
If you get hit hard, chances are you won't have CnS up and using a Bloodspiller to help heal would, again, be a loss of dps. Although, this would make mitigating during delirium much easier.

Ideally TBN should heal you like all the other big mitigations do on top of Bloodspiller, maybe a regen like Sheltron. I don't really like the whole dark arts bit, I'd rather get rid of it and make it free like the rest.
Obviously it'd need a longer cooldown too.
I'd like to try and come up with something snazzy for TBN, but DRK already has the most convoluted invuln (not that it's bad or anything).

Quote:

---

引用元：Shurrikhan

snip

---

once again you never balance around the absolutely optimal TBN pops every x seconds gameplay. cause that's just unreasonable you will always have those moments when it doesn't proc you applied it to early or late, you have no way to pop it rn, etc... also yes it's an anti overcapper but thats basically ALL it is rn for DRK which is not what it should be used for as a SHIELD thats meant to be used to protect teammates and yourself.

also you really out here comparing a 4 second DR on a melee that's one of the top DPS on the game (also procs on any damage dealt to the SAM period mind you) to a 7 second shield on a tank that based on what we've seen so far that they want to keep as the DPS tank meaning having more DPS at the cost of optimizing when and where to use shields is not that far out of the ball park (some would argue thats what's happening with current TBN anyways look at holding DA procs for burst windows) and i've already explained multiple way to balance it without touching the potencies

you don't need to nerf potency just cause a skill is strong or can be used alot or right now SAMS shinten would be getting nerfed even more as thats all they really spam anymore so you're actually more so looking at for your example for SAM a 2k potency increase using third eye at 50 kenki gain every 15seconds. but instead of raising the reward for third eyes proper usage they lower the reward value but still make you lose nothing if it does be finnicky or if you for some reason cast it to late/early now imagine if for example it cost 10 kenki to use but gain 35 kenki on proc (it would still be better than TBN cause as i saisd it pops on any damage period done ot the SAM but) if for some reason you don't proc the third eye it's now a damage loss but if you proc it it's a straight DPS gain meanwhile now you get half a shinten with absolutely no downsides if it doesn't proc once again this is why it's a dmaage neutral skill with potential to be a damage gain

Maybe the cost could be removed from TBN and we get some big MP spender (more than 3k) that could be used in an opener to avoid overcapping, something like Reaper's Soulsow/Havest Moon could be interesting.
It'd work thematically too considering that DRK is meant to be a dark magic tank, I think it'd be nice to have some sort of big spell to use.

Quote:

---

引用元：Shurrikhan

Because of the number of healing attacks done per minute -- or, more importantly, their total cure potency per minute (cppm).

PLD gets just under 4 heals per minute for a total of ~1600cppm. We'd get 5 or 6 Bloodspillers per minute, depending on the particular minute. That'd be 1500 to 1800cppm. Slap at least an Abyssal Drain's worth of cure potency, quite reasonably, onto Carve and Spit, and we'd be at 2000cppm. That's enough already for parity with all but the great and glorious outlier, who should probably be reined back slightly anyways.

---

Wait, wouldn't that be 8 heals instead of 4 heals? Holy Spirit x 4, then Confiteor, then the 3 Blade combo. All of them heal. That's 8 attacks that have 400 cure potency attached to them a minute, isn't it? Meaning more like ~3200cppm, unless there's something about the PLD rotation I'm not aware of.

Quote:

---

引用元：pikalovr

once again you never balance around the absolutely optimal TBN pops every x seconds gameplay.

---

Nor did I say they would. But you do balance around some degree of TBNs popped per minute, which means any time you don't pop as many TBNs per minute as the devs determined as a reasonable balancing point, you underperform. Moreover, any time DRK would manage to pop more TBNs per minute than that balancing point, they'd perform as if overtuned.

Is that really a balancing lever you want? At present, the first TBN pop is a ~60-93 potency bonus, depending on one's raid buffs, because it shifts that MP back and into raid buffs. Because Trick no longer exists, any MP spent on TBN thereafter that would otherwise have been spent to avoid overcapping MP (so long as the DA stack is spent before being overriden) is DPS-neutral. Each that moves MP out of raid buffs is then a 60-93 potency loss, depending on one's raid buffs.

If you used TBN on CD right now, but popped each (and popping a TBN is not nearly so unlikely as you seem to make out), you could lose no more than 420-650 potency per two minutes. What you have been suggesting would instead cost you 460 every 15 seconds you fail to pop TBN, or 3680 potency per two minutes for not optimizing TBN. You'd trade a flexible defensive for a use-as-near-as-possible-to-on-CD offensive tool.

Quote:

---

引用元：Nosaji_

Maybe the cost could be removed from TBN and we get some big MP spender (more than 3k) that could be used in an opener to avoid overcapping, something like Reaper's Soulsow/Havest Moon could be interesting.
It'd work thematically too considering that DRK is meant to be a dark magic tank, I think it'd be nice to have some sort of big spell to use.

---

We worry about overcapping MP because it's MP that can't be spent in our raid buffs. Why would we purposely use a big MP spender, which to have reason exist must have more potency per MP than Edge of Shadow, outside of raid buffs?

Quote:

---

引用元：RyuDragnier

Wait, wouldn't that be 8 heals instead of 4 heals? Holy Spirit x 4, then Confiteor, then the 3 Blade combo. All of them heal. That's 8 attacks that have 400 cure potency attached to them a minute, isn't it? Meaning more like ~3200cppm, unless there's something about the PLD rotation I'm not aware of.

---

Shoot, you're completely right. I had forgotten it's not just Holy Shock and Holy Circle. Yes, we'd want to double PLD's rotational free cure potency then (nearly 3200cp per minute), which would then give DRK reason for a 400-potency or even 500-potency BS to compete.

My apologies.

Regarding Bloodspiller/Quietus giving back HP and since we're back to the topic of DA again, they could make it where DA adds a lifesteal to those abilities. Just making it a more active choice rather than something that passively happens when you use your Blood abilities is more appealing to me.

Quote:

---

引用元：baklava151

Regarding Bloodspiller/Quietus giving back HP and since we're back to the topic of DA again, they could make it where DA adds a lifesteal to those abilities. Just making it a more active choice rather than something that passively happens when you use your Blood abilities is more appealing to me.

---

If that's coming at cost to the free Edge/Flood, then we'd have to actively avoid using Bloodspiller/Quietus until having used DA on Edge/Flood. Even some 600 potency of healing isn't going to be worth losing 460 ST or 160 AoE potency for.

So long as something is sufficiently bankable, its timing is an active choice (sometimes favoring raid buffs, sometimes favoring the reduced chance of a DF healer panicking and using a GCD heal). Locking the heals behind TBN, moreover, means making that healing far less responsive, something you may have to prep up to 8s in advance.