Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Available mitigation dictates how outgoing damage gets tuned, not the reverse, since all tank combinations need to be able to clear content. Discrepancies limit your ability to create challenging mitigation checks. As an example, if you release a big physical damage raidwide like HH in P10S, you have to still design to allow a DRK/GNB composition to clear on week 1, knowing that they will only have access to Reprisal. That in turn results in a softer check for a WAR/PLD setup, whereas a level playing field would naturally result in tighter checks across the board. The end result of all those supposedly 'little' advantages result in WAR having a smoother ride under all conditions.

I'm all for tanks having their unique strengths and weaknesses, but I don't really see a lot of give and take in that regard. When is WAR supposed to be at a disadvantage?

I think what needs to happen is that they need to get fresh eyes to look at the tanks from the ground up and re-evaluate how they can make a fair playing field for all involved. I think that there's a belief amongst the dev team that if they at least make WAR artificially popular, they can make people want to tank. This is shortsighted and will drive players away from tanking in the long run, simply because even non-tanks are recognizing and openly talking about the bias now. Nobody wants to invest in a role where they're forced to play a specific job to have the maximum advantages.

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Hence, why I have been saying from the get go. SAVAGE/ULTIMATE IS HOW THEY BALANCE JOBS. Not the other way around. If they change something like Bloodwhetting for dungeons to be weaker...then WAR will be at a disadvantage in savage/ultimate. Which in turn with the logic of this thread....just nerf all the tanks to WAR's level...*wipe hands* there done. Now all the tanks are at a disadvantage....

Oh but Shake is to strong...better lower that too...once again...WAR is at a disadvantage. Community of WAR tanks now in an uproar...dev team nerfs the other tanks to keep the tanks balanced again...because WAR is to strong.

Now the community is happy. WAR isn't a god in dungeons anymore....and it isn't used in savage at all because it's the worst of all the tanks. It can do damage...but can't stay alive.

Yeah...that seems smart.

I agree with you that if this is going to be "fixed" then they need look at it with fresh eyes.

My opinion start with the content itself, that would be the least depressing route as NOBODY likes nerfs. Because I guarantee you in 6 months time...it will be reverted back to the way it was due to community outcry and not understanding what they are asking at the time by just nerfing the tanks.

But the current state of the tanks....is perfectly fine within savage. Because they are tuned for savage. Dungeons....if that's your thing to just only run them....yeah it must be pretty boring...but I would argue they are boring on ANY job....so I don't know what to tell you.

Again for the 8301959106106@3&2th time a 1600 potency heal every 25 seconds, a 1500 potency heal on top of that every 60, an oGCD shield stronger than any healer oGCD shield that also gets a heal and a regen and a single target heal amplifier that works on your own heals is not “balanced in savage” it’s just not so hilariously broken that it’s causing as much of an outcry as the casual equivalent

At this point single target healing on the healers is downright useless, I can take tetra, bension and aquaveil off my bar and basically nothing about how WHM plays in savage changes, same for lustrate, excog, ED, CI and exaltation

SIO and holmgang are too powerful collectively, SIO is literally the best mitigation and is the only one that has 2 extra effects, self healing on WAR (and PLD) is too strong that it’s warping the healers kits, it’s not balanced from any other perspective than tank mains wanting to be overpowered

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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There are easy ways to avoid harsh nerfs against bosses, while still limiting healing against big groups. Those ideas have already been posted, numerous times. And there already is community outcry right now, which is selectively ignored. In dugeons a WAR does higher HPS than healers, while still doing their tank role and higher damage. That is not acceptable.

It's relatively easy to retune an ability like Bloodwhetting such that it only affects dungeon performance. We've talked about this before. By the action tooltip, you would expect the healing on Bloodwhetting to only apply once per weaponskill. This is in the same vein as Raw Intuition historically guaranteeing critical heals when your healer was flank or rear, when it was intended as a drawback for incoming damage in Heavensward. They should have fixed it immediately, but they let it sit for the entire expansion just because it had a favorable short-term response.

I think that you're being shortsighted here in the name of preserving your territory. The current approaches to self-sustain that WAR uses are low effort and low skill, and reflect poorly on the current state of tanking. You can easily revise these systems to make self-sustain more challenging, as it once was. Soloing bosses on WAR was once considered to be skillful. Nobody bats an eyelid at it anymore. It comes down to making self-sustain less available and more timing dependent.

It's also about giving every tank unique advantages and disadvantages. You can say that actions like Vengeance being unconditionally better than their equivalents are minor, but they stick out to players and add to the general perception of developer bias. I think you'll gain more by thinking about how to improve the overall state of tanking, rather than seeking to further your personal benefit on your preferred job.

I also think that pushback against WAR nerfs will be irrelevant in the long run if they put their minds to it. If the dev team commit to a change, then it really doesn't matter how many hundreds of threads you make on the subject - we've seen an example of this already this expansion. They just need to bite the bullet and do it, and they'll improve support gameplay tremendously by restoring fairness.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Hence, why I have been saying from the get go. SAVAGE/ULTIMATE IS HOW THEY BALANCE JOBS. Not the other way around. If they change something like Bloodwhetting for dungeons to be weaker...then WAR will be at a disadvantage in savage/ultimate. Which in turn with the logic of this thread....just nerf all the tanks to WAR's level...*wipe hands* there done. Now all the tanks are at a disadvantage....

Oh but Shake is to strong...better lower that too...once again...WAR is at a disadvantage. Community of WAR tanks now in an uproar...dev team nerfs the other tanks to keep the tanks balanced again...because WAR is to strong.

Now the community is happy. WAR isn't a god in dungeons anymore....and it isn't used in savage at all because it's the worst of all the tanks. It can do damage...but can't stay alive.

Yeah...that seems smart.

I agree with you that if this is going to be "fixed" then they need look at it with fresh eyes.

My opinion start with the content itself, that would be the least depressing route as NOBODY likes nerfs. Because I guarantee you in 6 months time...it will be reverted back to the way it was due to community outcry and not understanding what they are asking at the time by just nerfing the tanks.

But the current state of the tanks....is perfectly fine within savage. Because they are tuned for savage. Dungeons....if that's your thing to just only run them....yeah it must be pretty boring...but I would argue they are boring on ANY job....so I don't know what to tell you.

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This is starting to get infuriating.

There is NO FUNCTIONAL DIFFERENCE if Bloodwhetting is made to only heal once per GCD in both single target and aoe. Shake it off could have the healing removed entirely and is still better than both Dark Missionary and Heart of Light, and only removing the HoT equalizes it with current Divine Veil.

You would rather sacrifice the collective peoples' enjoyment just so you can continue to do the healers role for them with way more sustainability than a tank should have. You have zero reason to have such strong healing on a tank so often with no drawbacks.

Quite frankly, the part where they only think about week 1/2 savage balance is a part of the issue because they just blindly ignore the other 95% of content most of the playerbase actually interacts with on a more constant basis.

Cry all you want, if and when you Warrior mains receive your justifiable nerfs I look forward to all the salt in the tank forums.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Hence, why I have been saying from the get go. SAVAGE/ULTIMATE IS HOW THEY BALANCE JOBS. Not the other way around. If they change something like Bloodwhetting for dungeons to be weaker...then WAR will be at a disadvantage in savage/ultimate.

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Please do us all a favor and explain the logic of how nerfing the heal WAR gets on MULTIPLE TARGETS and leaving the single target healing that you're ranting about making WAR weak in Savage/Ultimate ALONE puts WAR at a disadvantage in said content? We're literally targeting the dungeon healing and nothing else.

What is sounds like to me is you aren't reading the complaints properly and that you don't give a crap about how balance affects the entire game outside of your role.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Please do us all a favor and explain the logic of how nerfing the heal WAR gets on MULTIPLE TARGETS and leaving the single target healing that you're ranting about making WAR weak in Savage/Ultimate ALONE puts WAR at a disadvantage in said content? We're literally targeting the dungeon healing and nothing else.

What is sounds like to me is you aren't reading the complaints properly and that you don't give a crap about how balance affects the entire game outside of your role.

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Because I don't see bloodwhetting in a dungeon environment as a gauge of the ENTIRE game. I have mentioned before "yes it is broken in dungeons" "It would do well to have a drop off heal per target". I don't see this as a nerf as it DOESN'T AFFECT SAVAGE.

I feel that you are confusing the fact that I don't give two shits about dungeon content...I don't see dungeons as a gauge for how a job is SUPPOSED to operate at high level. Where it matters.

Can a WAR solo a dungeon boss....yes. I have also done this on PLD. And GNB.....and DRK. Hell I have done this on MNK. ....you want to know how? BECAUSE IT'S A DUNGEON BOSS!

From what I gather from your comments is that you want 100% of the game balanced at ALL times....no exceptions. And any outliers should be ground into the dirt. Good luck with that. And we wonder why we have homogenization in the game....it's because people want EVERYTHING to balanced to a razor thin margin....and they bitch and moan when it's .0003% off from the lowest and highest in the tank category.

How hard is that to understand?

So yeah...I feel like I want the tanks to stay just the way that they are because to me...this is a compromise. What we have now is the most balanced they have ever been given each tanks respective strengths and weaknesses.

Where I have an issue is when people that want to take an inch.....then take a mile with this whole furthermore way of addressing the tanks. I argue...where does it end? Until all the tanks mitigation is the lowest is has ever been and we have nothing to address incoming damage? That healers would "god forbid" stop DPSing to heal us?

You change something from the tanks....you change something from the healers....and so on.

I feel nobody will be satisfied until WAR is ground into the dirt so that they can have some personal gratification of "There, that's better" mentality. Then like always the "mob" shifts it's gaze to the other tanks and wring their hands..."Now who's next?"

So....continue to use NORMAL content as a gauge for the entire game and decide what is to strong and what is weak.

Let the nerfing begin....hope healers can keep up.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Because I don't see bloodwhetting in a dungeon environment as a gauge of the ENTIRE game. I have mentioned before "yes it is broken in dungeons" "It would do well to have a drop off heal per target". I don't see this as a nerf as it DOESN'T AFFECT SAVAGE.

I feel that you are confusing the fact that I don't give two shits about dungeon content...I don't see dungeons as a gauge for how a job is SUPPOSED to operate at high level. Where it matters.



From what I gather from your comments is that you want 100% of the game balanced at ALL times....no exceptions. And any outliers should be ground into the dirt. Good luck with that. And we wonder why we have homogenization in the game....it's because people want EVERYTHING to balanced to a razor thin margin....and they bitch and moan when it's .0003% off from the lowest and highest in the tank category.

How hard is that to understand?

So yeah...I feel like I want the tanks to stay just the way that they are because to me...this is a compromise. What we have now is the most balanced they have ever been given each tanks respective strengths and weaknesses.

Where I have an issue is when people that want to take an inch.....then take a mile with this whole furthermore way of addressing the tanks. I argue...where does it end? Until all the tanks mitigation is the lowest is has ever been and we have nothing to address incoming damage? That healers would "god forbid" stop DPSing to heal us?

You change something from the tanks....you change something from the healers....and so on.

I feel nobody will be satisfied until WAR is ground into the dirt so that they can have some personal gratification of "There, that's better" mentality. Then like always the "mob" shifts it's gaze to the other tanks and wring their hands..."Now who's next?"

Rinse repeat.

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This is the most ironic nonsense coming from the same people who complained about Warrior dps until they caved and gave you the damage.

I want you to explain just what weakness Warrior has right now. Like, this isn't a small margin.

-You have the best invuln
-You have, by far, the most sustainability
-You have shields and by far the most potent raid utility of the tanks

It used to be you had all this in exchange for having lower dps, but that drawback is here no longer. Paladin at least has to sacrifice GCD's to cast clemency. So tell me. What weakness do you have?

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So....continue to use NORMAL content as a gauge for the entire game and decide what is to strong and what is weak.

Let the nerfing begin....hope healers can keep up.

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You're the same person who suggested they ramp up the damage in mob packs in regards to Warrior being immortal in dungeons because you actively refuse to see making Bloodwhetting one heal per GCD or percentage of damage dealt as viable solutions, so this isn't the sudden retaliation you think it is. Especially when our suggestions don't include neutering our kits, only toning them down.

This is all without even stating that DRK has way less survivability (thanks to low to no self-healing) than WAR has currently, tieing with the weakest raid-wide defensive with Gunbreaker (Dark Missionary/Heart of Light). And guess what? The comps they've been in performed just fine this entire expansion without having access to as potent party utility as WAR/PLD.

Please wake me up when certain individuals figure out that you can gauge for and make balance changes to both normal/dungeon and high-end content at the same time without making either functionally useless.

I'm just amazed at this point.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

This is the most ironic nonsense coming from the same people who complained about Warrior dps until they caved and gave you the damage.

I want you to explain just what weakness Warrior has right now. Like, this isn't a small margin.

-You have the best invuln
-You have, by far, the most sustainability
-You have shields and by far the most potent raid utility of the tanks

It used to be you had all this in exchange for having lower dps, but that drawback is here no longer. Paladin at least has to sacrifice GCD's to cast clemency. So tell me. What weakness do you have?

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Warrior downsides:
- invuln REQUIRES a target be in range (I understand most will just macro to use on self, but this is inefficient when timing matters)

- invuln offers ZERO damage mitigation, you still take full brunt of damage...you just can't fall below 1. If not timed properly you can run the risk of being low HP if your healers are busy. P12s Lazy Lazers and P8s Shared Autos comes to mind as progging that was rough on the healers as a WAR...I died a LOT when my healers "think" I can bene myself.

- must be in range of target to attack for bloodwhetting to work correctly otherwise zero heals...only mitigation. As MT I have had to peel off the boss for mechs. The last tier was really much of an issue as the target circle is gigundo now, but in previous tiers I lost out on a lot of healing from bloodwhetting due to mechs>dps.

- zero range capabilities save tomahawk (compared to Holy Spirit which is considerably stronger....better nerf Holy Spirit)

-Few DAMAGE mitigation (3) buttons to choose from:

• Vengeance : 30%
• Bloodwhetting: 20% with 10% drop off. With 400 potency heal equivalent barrier. (cure 1 level value)
• Shake It Off: 15% absorb based on WAR MAX HP. (Thrill, bloodwhetting, vengeance, buffs this by 2% each when each respective mitigation is present...lost after using shake it off)....so a WAR will SACRIFICE it's personal mits...to buff the party.
  -Equal is a self heal...no mit
  -Thrill is a minor heal with increase MAX HP...no mit
  -Nascent is a heal only to WAR...no mit

compared to PLD (6):

• Sentinel: 30% mit
• Hallowed Ground: 100% damage mit
• Bulwark: 20% damage mit (block rate is 100% but 20% block mit)
• Divine Veil: Barrier 10% of MAX HP of PLD granted to party.
• Passage of Arms: 100% block rate to PLD 20%, lowers incoming damage to party by 15%
• Holy Sheltron: 30% damage mitigation then falls to 15%

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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1) Holmgang is the shortest cooldown invuln and you have MORE than enough tools in your kit to heal yourself alongside mitigation to reduce damage after. Which, by the way, bloodwhetting provides a shield, mit, AND healing. Also, healers failing to heal you IS NOT A WARRIOR ISSUE, IT'S THE HEALER'S FAULT.

1a) Holmgang hasn't required a target since probably Stormblood (It might have at the start of Shadowbringers but I honestly don't remember.)

2) You're listing Bloodwhetting of all abilities as a downside, lmao. You have Equilibrium if need the healing that terribly, which not only heals you but ALSO gives you a HoT.

3) This might be news to you, but DRK and GNB also only have their one ranged attack too. Are you gonna ask for a Holy Spirit equivalent next? I've been a dedicated DRK main since Stormblood launch, and in my 7 years playing I've never complained about Holy Spirit, but nice try at a "gotcha"

4) with the amount of sustain you have you ABSOLUTELY do not need more mitigation. Vengeance+BW is plenty reliable if you need to kitchen sink. Or Holmgang if the TB calls for it)

4a) Hallowed Ground is PLD's invuln, you aren't using that as a rotational defensive CD in high end content, you're using it in specific places.

4b) you shouldn't be using SiO, Divine Veil, or Passage of Arms for personal mitigation anyway

4c) PLD got Bulwark back because it actually was struggling to stay alive due to bleeds (which is why [Holy] Sheltron no longer provides blocks and instead got flat mitigation)

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Originally Posted by Zairava

1)
4) with the amount of sustain you have you ABSOLUTELY do not need more mitigation. You actually have more tools (and more potent at that) than DRK has, and DRK gets by just fine.

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There it is. Bingo.

Like I have been saying all along....WAR has everything is needs.

Anyone else getting that pigeon and chessboard feeling here?

I've been having it for a while.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

There it is. Bingo.

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uhhh, what? I don't think you quoted me properly lol

edit: ah. I see now.

Yeah, to continue Reinhardt's point. You do realize that shields are effective HP (eHP) right? Which means Thrill of Battle is providing you 20% bonus HP (eHP) for a duration, and not only that, it provides you 20% bonus received healing. TBN is a 7s duration max which is never actually supposed to reach the end of it's duration bar the opener. AND it costs MP (an actual cost? Blasphemy!)

You have shields (amongst another eHP ability via Thrill), this minus all the healing you can just do to yourself, and you want to complain that mitigation is a downside? Give me a break.

Warrior has far more than what it actually needs to survive. You're the type to unironically sit there and complain that when the healer fails you when you play properly that it's somehow a problem with the job. You're one the worst types. You'll moan so long as you aren't totally self-sufficient. The trinity should actually be relevant, and Warrior laughs at the concept.

Kind reminder that when TBN is considered shield-based mitigation (different from %-based) and we herald that stuff as great when paired with standard mit...

Thrill of Battle is a 20% TBN that can be rehealed.

It's a bit rich to hear a WAR complain about inferior mitigation. Effective HP is a concept.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Anyone else getting that pigeon and chessboard feeling here?

I've been having it for a while.

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LOL....oh no my feelings....

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Because I don't see bloodwhetting in a dungeon environment as a gauge of the ENTIRE game. I have mentioned before "yes it is broken in dungeons" "It would do well to have a drop off heal per target". I don't see this as a nerf as it DOESN'T AFFECT SAVAGE.

I feel that you are confusing the fact that I don't give two shits about dungeon content...I don't see dungeons as a gauge for how a job is SUPPOSED to operate at high level. Where it matters.

Can a WAR solo a dungeon boss....yes. I have also done this on PLD. And GNB.....and DRK. Hell I have done this on MNK. ....you want to know how? BECAUSE IT'S A DUNGEON BOSS!

From what I gather from your comments is that you want 100% of the game balanced at ALL times....no exceptions. And any outliers should be ground into the dirt. Good luck with that. And we wonder why we have homogenization in the game....it's because people want EVERYTHING to balanced to a razor thin margin....and they bitch and moan when it's .0003% off from the lowest and highest in the tank category.

How hard is that to understand?

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Frankly you're the one that's failing to understand.

WAR is OVERTUNED. Shake it Off DOES NOT NEED ITS HEALING. It can be removed.

Nascent Flash/Holmgang is its own issue that ya'll can debate from here until kingdom come. I don't care about either. I didn't bring up either.

Bloodwhetting, as you yourself mentioned IS OVERTUNED IN DUNGEONS AND CAN BE FIXED WITHOUT BOTHERING SAVAGE.

So I ask ONCE AGAIN:

What the hells is your issue about nerfing it if it isn't going to affect savage? If you're ok with WAR having a drop off heal per target, LIKE I MENTIONED IN MY POST or any other change that doesn't bother the healing in a single target sense, WHY are you arguing so much against something that it needs? Because dungeons don't matter to you? If it's not going to affect you in savage what so ever, then BW getting nerfed like that shouldn't be your problem now is it?

Also, healers can keep up. We LITERALLY don't need any other role to have healing. You could remove it all come DT and any good healer will be perfectly fine.

Also this:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

you can gauge for and make balance changes to both normal/dungeon and high-end content at the same time without making either functionally useless.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Warrior downsides:
- invuln REQUIRES a target be in range (I understand most will just macro to use on self, but this is inefficient when timing matters)

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Extremely telling that your first downside is followed by parenthesis stating that you can completely sidestep the downside entirely. "Having to take 10 seconds to write a macro" is not a downside.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

Extremely telling that your first downside is followed by parenthesis stating that you can completely sidestep the downside entirely. "Having to take 10 seconds to write a macro" is not a downside.

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The downside is the fact that people would just say...write a macro for it. That's not ideal. Macros work off of server tick...using a macro for an invuln isn't efficient as it may cause delay when you need it most.

It's not a sidestep...it's a yes I thought of that to.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Frankly you're the one that's failing to understand.

WAR is OVERTUNED. Shake it Off DOES NOT NEED ITS HEALING. It can be removed.

Nascent Flash/Holmgang is its own issue that ya'll can debate from here until kingdom come. I don't care about either. I didn't bring up either.

Bloodwhetting, as you yourself mentioned IS OVERTUNED IN DUNGEONS AND CAN BE FIXED WITHOUT BOTHERING SAVAGE.

So I ask ONCE AGAIN:

What the hells is your issue about nerfing it if it isn't going to affect savage? If you're ok with WAR having a drop off heal per target, LIKE I MENTIONED IN MY POST or any other change that doesn't bother the healing in a single target sense, WHY are you arguing so much against something that it needs? Because dungeons don't matter to you? If it's not going to affect you in savage what so ever, then BW getting nerfed like that shouldn't be your problem now is it?

Also, healers can keep up. We LITERALLY don't need any other role to have healing. You could remove it all come DT and any good healer will be perfectly fine.

Also this:

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Because people want to keep changing WAR...for what? Make the bloodwhetting change...idk. Just don't change the single target value. Leave it alone. It's not going to drastically impact dungeons in ANY way shape or form....healers will still heal a warrior in a dungeon like all the other tanks.

But with that....leave everything else alone. But nobody can...."WAR NEEDS EVERYTHING CHANGED!!!!"

Shake needs a nerf and remove the healing and make it 8% shield....what's next? Vengeance...remove the reflect damage? What's next....Thrill is now just a 20% eHP bump for 10 sec with no increased healing....? What's next Equilibrium is just a flat heal with no HoT? While we are at it just remove guaranteed direct hit's on burst...because it's damage is to much. Holmgang timer changed to 360 sec so it's just like all the other tanks. Hell change all the invulns to 420 sec then so it matches PLD...because invulns are CHEESE!

Sheesh. This is what this forum wants.

Just gut it already then if that will make everyone happy. Guess i'll stick with PLD....until everyone starts to see that it's "overtuned" also and we start this cycle all over again.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I miss danger in dungeons and pulling to much would rekt any tank. Healers needed to actually sweat and heal. DPS needed to DPS or the tank would die...or healer would oom whichever came first

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Because people want to keep changing WAR...for what?

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To make the healer "actually sweat and heal"? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Tanks are not healers. As a matter of principle, the amount of HP they can restore, either to themselves or to the party as a whole, at max level, is simply too much. DRK is the one exception.

(I'll ignore party-wide mitigations here, except to say that I still don't understand why every tank has Reprisal @ 60s while WHM is stuck with Temperance @ 120s.)

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Because people want to keep changing WAR...for what? Make the bloodwhetting change...idk. Just don't change the single target value. Leave it alone. It's not going to drastically impact dungeons in ANY way shape or form....healers will still heal a warrior in a dungeon like all the other tanks.

But with that....leave everything else alone. But nobody can...."WAR NEEDS EVERYTHING CHANGED!!!!"

Shake needs a nerf and remove the healing and make it 8% shield....what's next? Vengeance...remove the reflect damage? What's next....Thrill is now just a 20% eHP bump for 10 sec with no increased healing....? What's next Equilibrium is just a flat heal with no HoT? While we are at it just remove guaranteed direct hit's on burst...because it's damage is to much. Holmgang timer changed to 360 sec so it's just like all the other tanks. Hell change all the invulns to 420 sec then so it matches PLD...because invulns are CHEESE!

Sheesh. This is what this forum wants.

Just gut it already then if that will make everyone happy. Guess i'll stick with PLD....until everyone starts to see that it's "overtuned" also and we start this cycle all over again.

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Congratulations because the entire time we've been going in circles none of us have been suggesting to make bloodwhetting worse in single target, which you've been welcomely ignoring.

Warrior could still perform fine on its own before Thrill got convalescence baked in (which means it now has two CD's for the price of one, but you don't care about that) and Shake it Off got healing and regen added. Their response to more aoe bleeds was to give Shake it Off healing and regen, do you understand how backwards that sounds? The HEALER SHOULD BE THE ONE COVERING IT.

And we ALSO already see PLD as overtuned, because, and we have already said this multiple times, the tanks in general are overtuned bar maybe Dark Knight (TBN makes it stronger the more the DRK is geared). You could take the healing off the req combo and off of Divine Veil and it would be fine.

For the quintillionth time, the changes would make the healers, by your own admission "actually sweat and heal". You would also be taking more damage without making the damage intake so high the healers literally cannot handle it when you aren't in your BW window.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Their response to more aoe bleeds was to give Shake it Off healing and regen, do you understand how backwards that sounds?. the HEALER SHOULD BE THE ONE COVERING IT

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This has always been funny to me. They say they're increasing healing requirements so healers have to heal more, but wait, WAR also heals more now.

What next? Add Esuna requirements into savage fights and then add a cleanse effect to Nascent Flash and Shake it Off? :)

I’ll at least say that I’ve been an advocate for the fact that WAR’s healing in savage is still disgustingly overtuned it’s just not as egregious as in AOE but I’m certainly the only one who is bringing up that point recently

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ll at least say that I’ve been an advocate for the fact that WAR’s healing in savage is still disgustingly overtuned it’s just not as egregious as in AOE but I’m certainly the only one who is bringing up that point recently

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WAR has honestly had too much healing in savage since ShB when they got Nascent Flash, the only difference is that it was percentage based back then so it required the WAR to be good at their job to heal a lot, but it did already trivialise double tankbusters at the time (very few people realised how strong cross-mitigating with Intervention and Nascent Flash was back then).

It's just become a more noticeable problem in EW because they got a new massive party heal from Shake it Off buffs and Nascent Flash was changed to be a flat 400 cure potency.

I honestly think WAR would be more fun if its life steal mechanic wasn't a flat number but more based on what you poor into it. I don't like how few decisions WAR has to make about, basically anything.

BW/NF should basically be spammed on CD without a thought unless theres an upcoming tank buster, its so comically free compared to TBN's resource, or HoC actually requiring damage to proc, sure it'll proc when that 20s CD is up but I've found that to be a very inefficient way to use it.

Ironically despite its reputation I honestly think WAR would make for an insanely powerful OT, more so than its MT abilities due to NF being so powerful and free.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I honestly think WAR would be more fun if its life steal mechanic wasn't a flat number but more based on what you poor into it. I don't like how few decisions WAR has to make about, basically anything.

BW/NF should basically be spammed on CD without a thought unless theres an upcoming tank buster, its so comically free compared to TBN's resource, or HoC actually requiring damage to proc, sure it'll proc when that 20s CD is up but I've found that to be a very inefficient way to use it.

Ironically despite its reputation I honestly think WAR would make for an insanely powerful OT, more so than its MT abilities due to NF being so powerful and free.

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So basically exactly how it worked prior to bloodwhetting

If you pressed nascent flash in ShB then just did 1-2-3 you got functionally nothing out of it

I dont think they are going to touch WAR. They are more likely to give DRK a small heal and call the tanks balanced. The problem is tanks received alot of sustain based on healers. Healers didnt want to spend a GCD on a heal to get the tank up so they said they will make it easier and give tanks more healing.

Ultimately it will come down how they do the healers this expansion to determine what they do for tank self sustain.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Healers didnt want to spend a GCD on a heal to get the tank up so they said they will make it easier and give tanks more healing.

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And they just happily based balancing around the people who say "Hey, I don't want to do the main role that I signed up for"?

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Originally Posted by Derio

I dont think they are going to touch WAR. They are more likely to give DRK a small heal and call the tanks balanced. The problem is tanks received alot of sustain based on healers. Healers didnt want to spend a GCD on a heal to get the tank up so they said they will make it easier and give tanks more healing.

Ultimately it will come down how they do the healers this expansion to determine what they do for tank self sustain.

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Their entire design philosophy on healers pushed them this way because in their attempt to make healers easier all they have done is discouraged GCD healing by stuffing so much potency in the nuke

Imagine if you as the tank had to lose goring blade/primal rend/blasting zone/shadowbringer every time you used rampart. Because of how maim and mend works that’s about how much the healer nukes are worth

They need to diversify healer DPS actions so GCD healing isn’t so punishing. Saying “poor tanks were dying because the healers are selfish” ignores everything about how the current design punishes healers on every front

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again for the 8301959106106@3&2th time a 1600 potency heal every 25 seconds, a 1500 potency heal on top of that every 60, an oGCD shield stronger than any healer oGCD shield that also gets a heal and a regen and a single target heal amplifier that works on your own heals is not “balanced in savage” it’s just not so hilariously broken that it’s causing as much of an outcry as the casual equivalent

At this point single target healing on the healers is downright useless, I can take tetra, bension and aquaveil off my bar and basically nothing about how WHM plays in savage changes, same for lustrate, excog, ED, CI and exaltation

SIO and holmgang are too powerful collectively, SIO is literally the best mitigation and is the only one that has 2 extra effects, self healing on WAR (and PLD) is too strong that it’s warping the healers kits, it’s not balanced from any other perspective than tank mains wanting to be overpowered

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Yeah, agreed.
It doesn't completely trivialise high end content, but that's not the bar to something being overpowered.
Tank sustain needs to come down.

I wonder if part of the solution is in WAR thematically going back to its roots as a high HP pool tank. I remember part of the fun back in ARR and HW was in seeing how high you could push your HP totals with stacked buff effects. You could have effects that let you 'overheal' for temporary HP to boost your maximum (Bloodwhetting, Shake it Off), and have effects that consume all your temporary HP (Equilibrium), healing you in proportion to the difference between maximum HP and current HP. If you did this, you wouldn't need additional barriers, regens, or heals, because you'd be able to generate equivalent effects by manipulating your HP total situationally. You'd also have pretty good synergy with Holmgang, because that would be the ideal time to cash in your temporary HP.

Rather than looking at the negatives of losing passive regens and on demand heals, does it not make more sense to develop a more interesting set of gameplay mechanics that supports a more equitable design? Personally, I'd like to see all the tanks developed along more individualized mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

And they just happily based balancing around the people who say "Hey, I don't want to do the main role that I signed up for"?

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Jokes on you, that’s because the dev themselves came from that camp of players.:v

/s

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Originally Posted by Derio

I dont think they are going to touch WAR. They are more likely to give DRK a small heal and call the tanks balanced. The problem is tanks received alot of sustain based on healers. Healers didnt want to spend a GCD on a heal to get the tank up so they said they will make it easier and give tanks more healing.

Ultimately it will come down how they do the healers this expansion to determine what they do for tank self sustain.

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So because healer (and everyone else) doesn't want to spend GCD on anything else but damage, they give more ogcd healing to tanks. I don't see the cause and effect there. They could have just buffed the ogcd single target healing from healers.

Try making defensive abilities on tanks GCD, and see how much complaining that gets you. By your logic that would be a a reason to give DPS jobs more ogcd defensive abilities.

What you're missing is that most players are bad at the game and if you powered up oCGDs you wouldn't solve the problem because half the WHM are spamming Medica II at full HP before the fight even start. They don't know how to use or time oCGDs effectively.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

What you're missing is that most players are bad at the game and if you powered up oCGDs you wouldn't solve the problem because half the WHM are spamming Medica II at full HP before the fight even start. They don't know how to use or time oCGDs effectively.

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Tanks are also pretty universally terrible at this game but they don’t get punished, they just get buffed so damn hard that they physically can’t fail no matter how much they try to fail

Think of bloodwhetting, 4 benedictions and mitigation for pressing literally 1 button and you cannot press it at the wrong time if healers got a CD even half as strong it’d be a lot easier for medica 2 spammers to do more damage, imagine if holy’s stun didn’t fall off, no need to heal when I just drop the enemies from ever doing damage

Going along for a moment with the idea SE balances classes with considerations about "what if a healer is bad". Why is that a reason to give the additional ogcd healing to tanks? Are those inherently better players? As a healer I had to babysit countless tanks with questionable use of mitigation and selfhealing. Why didn't dps jobs get that extra healing to cover all those terrible single point of failure healers. And why does all the tank healing (besides clemency) need to be ogcd? If it's just to cover bad healers, some gcd healing would be enough.

And tanks are by far the biggest single point of failure at the moment. To avoid all those bad tanks ruining stuff, we surely need healers and dps classes with similar damage mitigation and threat, right?

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Going along for a moment with the idea SE balances classes with considerations about "what if a healer is bad". Why is that a reason to give the additional ogcd to tanks? Are those inherently better players? As a healer I had to babysit countless tanks with questionable use of mitigation and selfhealing. Why didn't dps jobs get that extra healing to cover all those terrible single point of failure healers.

And tanks are by far the biggest single point of failure at the moment. To avoid all those bad tanks ruining stuff, we surely need healers and dps classes with similar damage mitigation and threat, right?

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My assumption is that they think that pressing oGCDs between GCDs comes more naturally to people playing melee, also helps that melee GCDs are (almost) all instant.
But I have seen a similar phenomenon with people playing XIV for the first time, they don't "weave" oGCDs, they press their GCD, wait for the lockout timer to finish and then press their oGCD.

And they have put training wheels on tanks, just in a different way. They removed all responsibility from them besides not dying, and even that has become easier than ever before.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

My assumption is that they think that pressing oGCDs between GCDs comes more naturally to people playing melee, also helps that melee GCDs are (almost) all instant.
But I have seen a similar phenomenon with people playing XIV for the first time, they don't "weave" oGCDs, they press their GCD, wait for the lockout timer to finish and then press their oGCD.

And they have put training wheels on tanks, just in a different way. They removed all responsibility from them besides not dying, and even that has become easier than ever before.

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By that logic they could also give all healers a bunch of Assize type abilities with a lower cooldown. That would get use naturally while optimizing dps too. So that is still no reason to push that all on tanks.