Tank healing is to high

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

Aren't you supposed to be trolling the Healer forums? Why are you over here now, we already have enough nonsense on the Tank forums, we don't need another person who doesn't know what they are talking about shout more garbage.

If you don't think something is seriously amiss with two tanks being able to carry six DPS in current, extreme content, you're being disingenuous at best, or outright refusing to see how devastating it is to community sentiment torwards both roles. It doesn't matter if it's a "super optimized static" or whatever, it flat out should not be possible.

If you are bad/someone is your team is bad, and you are part of a lynchpin role such as a tank or a healer and your inadequacy leads to wipes, that team should not clear. Full stop. They're not good enough to clear, so they shouldn't.

If you're unwilling to compromise your own role's VERY OBVIOUS imbalance through justified nerfs, it just means you're selfish, and would rather see yourself at the top of the hierarchy without earning that spot through legitimate effort and skill.

That doesn't make me a traitor to the role, it means I care about game design that makes sense and doesn't invalidate entire portions of the playerbase. Even if it means alienating the outliers.

---

Stop lmao, the only reason that was possible is because of 2x Arcane Crest and 4x Improvised Finish not because of tanks.

If you're going to talk at least be knowledgeable on the matter so follow your own advice and stop with the spreading of nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shalan

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ithout-Healers

Both were cleared within two weeks of the expansion's official launch. Each run takes about 10 mins (one 9 mins, the other 11). There's just not enough unavoidable damage going out in current content, and what little that is going out is spaced out enough you don't need a healer to survive it.
It's been the talk of the Healer section for a few days now.



It would be a positive if it wasn't for the fact that healers have almost nothing to do when they're not healing. If you're not healing your only other option is to DPS and your DPS is just spamming one button over and over and refreshing a dot every 30 seconds. It just gets old after a while, especially since your DPS rotation doesn't change at all since you get it at level 1.

I wouldn't mind less scrutiny or the team relying on healers to survive if I had more to do as a healer. As it stands now though, the team relying on me is all I've got left. You take that, you might as well not have any healers.

---

I completely sympathize, healer design simply doesn't fit the mold and if the devs actually played it for a week they'd see it as well.

Quite frankly, FFXIV's healers are literally the worst designed healers I've seen in any game. Not only in gameplay but thematically as well, 4 light based mages and they thought this was a good idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aluja89

Stop lmao, the only reason that was possible is because of 2x Arcane Crest and 4x Improvised Finish not because of tanks.

If you're going to talk at least be knowledgeable on the matter so follow your own advice and stop with the spreading of nonsense.

---

Thank you. My point exactly, this is such a dumb conversation from people saying X meme shouldn’t be possible as if even more than 5-10% of the player base can pull it off. Most people don’t even know ex1 still and just do follow the leader. I’ve farmed it like 10 times and that’s all I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aluja89

Stop lmao, the only reason that was possible is because of 2x Arcane Crest and 4x Improvised Finish not because of tanks.

If you're going to talk at least be knowledgeable on the matter so follow your own advice and stop with the spreading of nonsense.

---

Replace Warrior with Dark Knight and the Zodiark run fails, straight up.

"The only reason it was possible" is actually a fairly long list of reasons, but "Warrior was present" is one of them.

And for those curious, a few other reasons would be:

You regenerate health in combat.
Clemency.
Reapers are a little overtuned (and were there for damage - arcane crest cannot stack)
Dancers because they have Everlasting Flight but it's not connected to their DPS.
Dancers because Summoners aren't dealing 25% more damage than the fight was tuned for (as it was in E4s: Titan)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Replace Warrior with Dark Knight and the Zodiark run fails, straight up.

"The only reason it was possible" is actually a fairly long list of reasons, but "Warrior was present" is one of them.

And for those curious, a few other reasons would be:

You regenerate health in combat.
Clemency.
Reapers are a little overtuned (and were there for damage - arcane crest cannot stack)
Dancers because they have Everlasting Flight but it's not connected to their DPS.
Dancers because Summoners aren't dealing 25% more damage than the fight was tuned for (as it was in E4s: Titan)

---

No, it'd still be fine. You said it yourself. Clemency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Replace Warrior with Dark Knight and the Zodiark run fails, straight up.

"The only reason it was possible" is actually a fairly long list of reasons, but "Warrior was present" is one of them.

And for those curious, a few other reasons would be:

You regenerate health in combat.
Clemency.
Reapers are a little overtuned (and were there for damage - arcane crest cannot stack)
Dancers because they have Everlasting Flight but it's not connected to their DPS.
Dancers because Summoners aren't dealing 25% more damage than the fight was tuned for (as it was in E4s: Titan)

---

Dark knight is trash though and has been for a minute, worst invuln, and now you have zero self protection compared to like the other 3 who can heal. Look when it gets real in savage and alliance if people want to go no healer then so be it, zero raises and must have near perfect mechanics also passing up on the free 5% buff to stats good luck to them.

Hallelujah. A combat raise and a passive stat buff are your contribution. Such interactivity. Healers are the best designed they've ever been after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shalan

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ithout-Healers

Both were cleared within two weeks of the expansion's official launch. Each run takes about 10 mins (one 9 mins, the other 11). There's just not enough unavoidable damage going out in current content, and what little that is going out is spaced out enough you don't need a healer to survive it.
It's been the talk of the Healer section for a few days now.

---

This was also done with 4 dancers though which if used correctly (as in the video) can take care of raid wide damage. Seems you need DPS that can heal in order to do this though. No way WAR and/or PLD can carry 6 DPS. So it's still not a tank problem but a mechanic problem if anything (as you pointed out in your third sentence). Even with that said, this strategy isn't the most viable. You can kill both extremes faster with healers (especially on Hydaelyn). But kudos to that team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Replace Warrior with Dark Knight and the Zodiark run fails, straight up.

"The only reason it was possible" is actually a fairly long list of reasons, but "Warrior was present" is one of them.

And for those curious, a few other reasons would be:

You regenerate health in combat.
Clemency.
Reapers are a little overtuned (and were there for damage - arcane crest cannot stack)
Dancers because they have Everlasting Flight but it's not connected to their DPS.
Dancers because Summoners aren't dealing 25% more damage than the fight was tuned for (as it was in E4s: Titan)

---

Yeah but replace WAR with another PLD or even a GNB and it'd still be fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

Which is why some of us are asking: Why is it just now that people are complaining about it?

---

Because it's becoming more common and easier to do.

Current kits are tuned for this next savage tier and ultimate I believe. They are giving more healing tools to dps and tanks because it's likely there will be more outgoing damage in harder content. heck, I dare you to try running P2 normal right now with 0 healers and tell me how it goes.

Just waiting for square enix to nerf every single bit of healing and support other classes offer in 6.05 because of general populace, followed by inevitable healer mains complaining about P2S being "overtuned"

Personally, I prefer buffs that reward player skill. My reasoning is that if anyone can pick up my job and do the exact same thing with minimal practice, then I'm easily replaceable. I don't think that the present setup with tank self-sustain particularly rewards player skill. I don't think that it makes tanks more valuable to play.

If anything, what it does do is devalue tanking. Currently, we're situation in which players are starting to take tank survival as expected and for granted. And that should be worrying. If you had a group of eight players who were capable of playing all three roles equally, you'd probably assign your weakest two players to pick tank, simply because of how safe it's become. And while you could argue that this is not entirely a new development, it is a trend, and it has gotten progressively worse with each expansion after Heavensward. I don't think that identifying a long term issue as a problem makes it any less relevant.

Memes aside, you'll naturally still bring healers into Savage, simply because raidwides and mechanic damage have always been important, even if tank damage is not. All that you've done is decouple tanks from the equation so that they're not all that relevant to the outcome, and thus your lowest priority for skill and gear. Healers and DPS still maintain a mutually interdependent relationship, and it's oddly more satisfying to mitigate raidwides with the various mitigation tools that DPS have at their disposal. The one thing that you may see is a swap to a solo healer if that pushes teams through a dps check, but that'll depend on how tightly it's tuned. But I do note mechanics in P4N itself that were probably specifically included to discourage non-standard comps, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more.

I'm not overly invested in this either way, but I think that if you consider yourself to be a tank of even average skill, you should want tanking to be dangerous and challenging. You should want mitigation checks with tight timing windows. You should want your healers to be fretting over keeping you alive. And you should want a tank death to unilaterally result in a wipe. Why? Because you want your place in the team to be the deciding factor for the clear. And you want your teammates to feel grateful to have you playing such a clutch role for them.

But by all means, enjoy the feeling of power while it lasts.

And just to address a side discussion from earlier:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

...

---

I think most of the situations you've described for Oblation can be summarized as: TBN is on cooldown, and every little bit helps, so why not? But I think you'd have to find some very specific HP thresholds at 10% DR for Oblation to be the deciding factor in a player living or dying from a targeted attack.

And if we're talking about using the charges to shield two players simultaneously, then really what we're getting at is a situation in which TBN, Reprisal, and all of the other job specific raidwide mitigation tools are on cooldown. And for that matter, Sheltron/Intervention have effectively been operating on a 2 charge system from baseline, and both actions are considerably more useful now. So this isn't even breaking novel ground in terms of flexibility.

I can't argue that Oblation has no value at all. But then again, the original iteration of Shake it Off also had 'value', but there was blood in the streets over that one because it was too niche. Well, that and the fact that WARs demand efficiency in their actions.

Would I trade Oblation for a second charge on TBN and a second storage stack of Dark Arts? Probably. Would I trade Oblation for Arcane Crest? Ye- er, no, get your grubby paws off my actions! Would I trade Oblation for a 10% bubble that generates gauge/Dark Arts when used on a tankbuster and plays a little shattering sound when it breaks? Definitely. I agree that it looks cool. That's pretty much it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

Current kits are tuned for this next savage tier and ultimate I believe. They are giving more healing tools to dps and tanks because it's likely there will be more outgoing damage in harder content.

---

You weren't there for SHB or just got short memory? This is exactly the same naive assumption people were making back then, with all the new mitigation and healing skills on both tanks and healers and none of that happened. In fact there's been less damage, especially directed at tanks. Bosses can't even crit on autos anymore since 5.0 and something like Godka in Stormblood had more tank busters in the first 3 minutes (some of them doubles) than majority of the SHB fights in their entire duration. We've been there before, it ain't happening.

The only change in direction is to make things easier and more forgiving - you can of course argue that it's for the better, but don't delude yourself into thinking it's going the other way.

1) Auto attack crit rng on bosses was a horrible mechanic that had no place in the game. taking back to back crits putting a tank at 35% hp was something that healers could not account for with planning and in some cases basically lead to tanks dieng when they were mitigating properly to a tank buster + crit auto from full health.

2) When SE removed crit autos from the game they compensated by raising the average damage per auto from the bosses. E4S slaps tanks for 1/4 of their hp every auto attack at around 455 item level. TEA slaps both tanks for over 1/4 their hp every single auto on top of all the mechanics that are going on. many fights follow suit.

3) P2N is already a highlight that there is a ton of raidwide damage going our way, savage version is only going to be worse.

4) Every single fight in SHB had more tank busters than the first 3 minutes in godka besides E9S which was a joke of a fight once your team was on the same page. 2 part fights in general also have far more leeway with being difficult since there is a checkpoint to fall back to.

5) Shadowbringers as a whole had far more annoying mechanics for the PARTY than the entirety of Stormblood barring a few in O8S and O12S and even then average players had far more issues dealing with mechanics like conflag strike, light rampant, and lions in E6S, E8S and E12S respectively

Players as a whole have become relatively more competent and able minded to tackle harder mechanics, but this is still a team game in the end so fights should not be designed to be hell on just one job or another otherwise nobody in their right mind is going to want to play those jobs. lower player base participation = less content of that type.

also, clearing TEA I can tell you that having the tools the tanks had then was ABSOLUTELY something that was required on release. This is obviously ultimate content which is the highest of the high so my viewpoint there might be different to somebody that might only do extreme content.

I just can't believe tanks are advocating for their own nerf. This thread is just baffling I won't lie, I feel like it was made by a healer, or these are healers commenting not real tanks. Why would anyone want their class to get nerfed??? I'm a paladin and I LOVE these changes, the healing from sheltron is perfect when my healer doesn't want to wall to wall, and needs to be forced to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

1) Auto attack crit rng on bosses was a horrible mechanic that had no place in the game. taking back to back crits putting a tank at 35% hp was something that healers could not account for with planning and in some cases basically lead to tanks dieng when they were mitigating properly to a tank buster + crit auto from full health.

2) When SE removed crit autos from the game they compensated by raising the average damage per auto from the bosses. E4S slaps tanks for 1/4 of their hp every auto attack at around 455 item level. TEA slaps both tanks for over 1/4 their hp every single auto on top of all the mechanics that are going on. many fights follow suit.

3) P2N is already a highlight that there is a ton of raidwide damage going our way, savage version is only going to be worse.

4) Every single fight in SHB had more tank busters than the first 3 minutes in godka besides E9S which was a joke of a fight once your team was on the same page. 2 part fights in general also have far more leeway with being difficult since there is a checkpoint to fall back to.

5) Shadowbringers as a whole had far more annoying mechanics for the PARTY than the entirety of Stormblood barring a few in O8S and O12S and even then average players had far more issues dealing with mechanics like conflag strike, light rampant, and lions in E6S, E8S and E12S respectively

Players as a whole have become relatively more competent and able minded to tackle harder mechanics, but this is still a team game in the end so fights should not be designed to be hell on just one job or another otherwise nobody in their right mind is going to want to play those jobs. lower player base participation = less content of that type.

also, clearing TEA I can tell you that having the tools the tanks had then was ABSOLUTELY something that was required on release. This is obviously ultimate content which is the highest of the high so my viewpoint there might be different to somebody that might only do extreme content.

---

the party DID take more damage in stormblood raids than in shadowbringer ones. In some cases not even relative damage, but absolute.

neo exdeath https://www.fflogs.com/reports/cnbGm...e=damage-taken
total damage taken: 8.69m

ifrit and garuda savage https://www.fflogs.com/reports/KBQ1g...e=damage-taken
total damage taken: 8.55m

TEA is the exception rather than the rule. shadowbringers savages were woefully undertuned for healers. im really hoping pandemonium savage proves me wrong, but im absolutely not holding my breath for higher healing requirements when 8/13 of the fights last expansion were pathetic.

Healers complaining tanks have too much self sustain now... likely as a result of every Tank dying to auto attacks because the healer decided to ignore healing the tank with a GCD heal when they need too and then yelling at a tank for not using cooldowns when they have none available. Now some of the power to help keep a tank topped up is in our hands every once in a while. Good. Let healers DPS more and focus on mechanics. Heal us during the tankbusters, let us focus on the AAs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QooEr

the party DID take more damage in stormblood raids than in shadowbringer ones. In some cases not even relative damage, but absolute.

neo exdeath https://www.fflogs.com/reports/cnbGm...e=damage-taken
total damage taken: 8.69m

ifrit and garuda savage https://www.fflogs.com/reports/KBQ1g...e=damage-taken
total damage taken: 8.55m

TEA is the exception rather than the rule. shadowbringers savages were woefully undertuned for healers. im really hoping pandemonium savage proves me wrong, but im absolutely not holding my breath for higher healing requirements when 8/13 of the fights last expansion were pathetic.

---

Sorry but using a 2 minute shorter kill time and a second floor boss which typically has a lower skill floor requirement versus a final floor boss, that had almagast of all things on top of everything else, typically final floors are a bit of a challenge especially for healers, and this doesn't factor in defense being relatively equivalent for the fight on Neo Exdeath versus ifrit and garuda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I just can't believe tanks are advocating for their own nerf. This thread is just baffling I won't lie, I feel like it was made by a healer, or these are healers commenting not real tanks. Why would anyone want their class to get nerfed??? I'm a paladin and I LOVE these changes, the healing from sheltron is perfect when my healer doesn't want to wall to wall, and needs to be forced to do it.

---

some can see the forest for trees, others cannot.

Some people want the game to be enjoyable for all roles and not solo everything without efforts indeed.

Why do some people think there is a rivalry between tanks healers and dps ? It's a *team* game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

Some people want the game to be enjoyable for all roles and not solo everything without efforts indeed.

Why do some people think there is a rivalry between tanks healers and dps ? It's a *team* game.

---

Yeah that's why I'm helping the team by keeping myself healed. Is making myself a burden more conducive to a team game lol?

Is that what we should be looking for, aspects of a role that actively make things WORSE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

Some people want the game to be enjoyable for all roles and not solo everything without efforts indeed.

Why do some people think there is a rivalry between tanks healers and dps ? It's a *team* game.

---

It´s not only a teamgame, it´s the holy trinity. Ppl should beware of their role and it should execute like that:

- Tanks are there to eat the damage for the group.
- Healers to keep the group alive.
- DPS to do damage obviously. (And to do some extra mechanics normally.)

Some personal survive-abilities and debuffs on the enemy might be fine, but not any class should be able to do everything. Tanks are a broken mess, meanwhile healers are pretty much obsolete out of bigpulls and spam 11111 all day long. DPS have nothing to take care about but DPS and moving from A to B content-wise with braindead rotations. I don´t get it how so many ppl are like "It´s all fine!", when it´s clearly not. And no, personal fun doesn´t matter in multiplayer-balancing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

And you want your teammates to feel grateful to have you playing such a clutch role for them.

---

Once tanking has been the major role in MMORPG´s. You´ve been the game-maker, you had to kite, interrupt, taunt, permaswap, positioning the boss... you´d to know any encounter, you needed to use your 2-3 defs wisely and you´ve been raidlead most of the times. On top you had ressources to take care for and your rotation needed to be on top, otherwise you lost some majorbuffs on yourself or the boss turn around and slapped your best DPS-member.
"Tanks first" was pretty normal when anyone talked about equip, because having a "wall of iron" made things easier since healers had a hard time playing around their ressources. 10 more DPS had no real meaning unless you had hard issues with DPS checks. But mechanic-skips? No chance...
Everyone have even known your name, if you´ve been a good tank and ofc everyone wanted you to be in their raidparty because of that.

Meanwhile tanks in FF14 are like:

- "Oh you here? 1st time savage? Go OT, just follow the group and taunt 1 time with invul please. :)"
- "Don´t worry, just put your tankstance on, you can´t lose aggro!"
- "Wait... tankgear? You gonna be the last one, tanks are broken anyway."

The whole role is overpowered and the content doesn´t even force anything. The major-sign to differentiate between good / bad tanks is the amount of healing you need in dungeon-bigpulls. Like wow...
(Or in kind of WAR, if the healer have to heal him in savage or not.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jetfire117

You guys really hate fun, don't you? Nothing literally wrong with tanks being able to sustain themselves in dungeons. It makes it fun and gives the healer the ability to DPS (I know, gods forbid that). DRK used to be able to do that, but we got that taken away from us. And now you want to take it away from the other tanks? Come on now. Let people have fun in their video game.

---

The "DPS healer" thing has been talked about since the end of time, but you realise the reason why us healers are healers...because we want to heal, right?

Tanks happy they can pretty much one man army it, healers are like 'Why are we here if they can do everything?" You're alienating an entire role....That's bad.
You can go heal and press 1 button mostly the entire run with the occasionally 2 for dot and 3 for you oGCD attack but
come back to me and tell me how much fun it is to be a healer that doesn't heal and presses 1 button 95% of the run. Love to hear about it.

IMO, they should just make healers like RDM/DNC/BRD and support DPS if they want to continue this route. Give us more DPS tools to play with and some buffs and some heals and be done with it.
The healer kit is bloated with extra potency up buttons anyway and they struggle to make healer interesting otherwise.

Gonna die on the hill here and say: Either tanks need to be nerfed with their sustain, DRK needs a buff lol and healer role need to be reworked or revamped.
Something has to give or there will be many healers making a move to other roles...such as myself lol.

I don't see how it's tank's fault that incoming damage as a whole is so low that you can effectively heal an entire encounter with planned oGCDs. That's how it was before this expansion. Making my role less fun because you're not satisfied with yours is the worst way to go about it.

If you want more healing to do then beg the devs to make damage more threatening, don't gimp me because you're frustrated. You don't see me complaining when healers get damage reduction, especially when SGE has % reduction out the wazoo.

Should I be making threads advocating for the removal of all damage reducing effects in the game that aren't on tanks? Bye bye Addle, Feint, Temperance. Damage reduction is a tank's job, not the healer or DPS. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jybril

snip

---

Reading that makes me asume you play nothing else but dungeons in this game. Because it's not nearly as bad as you describe it in trials and raids.
Sure there has been people that challenge themselves with only tank UCOB for example but I asure you things like these are nothing the average player can even dream to do.

As strong WAR is in Dungeons right now with their selfheals, in raids/trials they can't completely selfsustain themselves for long.

But in turn, you're making my job less fun because yours is more fun to you.
Obviously, this means the jobs are not balanced and needs to be looked into.
No side should feel this way and now healers and tanks are fighting because of it.
Source: This entire thread.

Increase dungeon difficulty, double the outgoing damage and AoEs so healers are too busy to even care about whats going on with the tank. RIP (current) DRK and healers be happy because they have something to do. Fixed.
Solves the issue of the entire dungeon crawler thread.

I can understand the resistance against turning healers into support DPS, and instead wanting the healing itself be intense and engaging, but I've yet to hear a single realistic way you could rebalance the game to work like that. Hugely trimming down the healing kits and replacing them with a decent DPS rotations is pretty easy thing to do as top-down change, to make things more in line with how healers actually spend their time. But going back and rescripting 8-10 years worth of encounters so you have to actually spend even half your time healing seems like a pipe dream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jybril

But in turn, you're making my job less fun because yours is more fun to you.
Obviously, this means the jobs are not balanced and needs to be looked into.
No side should feel this way and now healers are fighting tanks because of it.
Source: This entire thread.

---

No, the GAME needs to be looked at, not my role. I shouldn't have to perform worse so that YOU can have more fun. The game's damage should go up, not my healing go down.

The game was never designed with GCD heal spamming in mind regardless, this is nothing new. This is LITERALLY HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

No, the GAME needs to be looked at, not my role. I shouldn't have to perform worse so that YOU can have more fun. The game's damage should go up, not my healing go down.

The game was never designed with GCD heal spamming in mind regardless, this is nothing new. This is LITERALLY HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

---

In the PoV of game-dev time/resource investment, if one tank can trivialize dungeons, out of the 4 tanks available, the problem is that 1 tank, not a redesign of 3 other tanks and all the dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I can understand the resistance against turning healers into support DPS, and instead wanting the healing itself be intense and engaging, but I've yet to hear a single realistic way you could rebalance the game to work like that.

---

Take a look at the healer forums. We have asked this time and time and time again.
The only reason I even mentioned the Support DPS because they haven't done anything to remedy current issues.
So the next best thing is to just move us to DPS. *Shrugs* People already scream at us because we don't DPS enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

No, the GAME needs to be looked at, not my role. I shouldn't have to perform worse so that YOU can have more fun. The game's damage should go up, not my healing go down.

The game was never designed with GCD heal spamming in mind regardless, this is nothing new. This is LITERALLY HOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

---

You're right, it was "Press 1 DPS button forever as a healer" instead. So you get to use all your spells and skills and I use 1 and occasionally 2.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. We won't see eye to eye so I'll leave it at that. I just want healers to not be crap is all. I don't really want any role/job to be bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

In the PoV of game-dev time/resource investment, if one tank can trivialize dungeons, out of the 4 tanks available, the problem is that 1 tank, not a redesign of 3 other tanks and all the dungeons.

---

I've been trivializing dungeons with every single tank since ARR. The only time dungeons were threatening was that weird period where tank stance wasn't available on PLD until 40. They do not balance, and will not ever balance the game around dungeons. In fact that is the specific reason the devs have said they don't plan on adding extra content like WoW's Mythic+ dungeon system. The game is NOT balanced around 4 man content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

In the PoV of game-dev time/resource investment, if one tank can trivialize dungeons, out of the 4 tanks available, the problem is that 1 tank, not a redesign of 3 other tanks and all the dungeons.

---

Thats what we're talking about the one tank that needs to be adressed is DRK because he is the only one that feels bad in dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreides

As strong WAR is in Dungeons right now with their selfheals, in raids/trials they can't completely selfsustain themselves for long.

---

They can. The only bad thing are the overused multi-stack marks. But with a decent cd-management or even LB1 here and there it´s possible and not only on WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

I don't see how it's tank's fault that incoming damage as a whole is so low that you can effectively heal an entire encounter with planned oGCDs. That's how it was before this expansion. Making my role less fun because you're not satisfied with yours is the worst way to go about it.

If you want more healing to do then beg the devs to make damage more threatening, don't gimp me because you're frustrated. You don't see me complaining when healers get damage reduction, especially when SGE has % reduction out the wazoo.

Should I be making threads advocating for the removal of all damage reducing effects in the game that aren't on tanks? Bye bye Addle, Feint, Temperance. Damage reduction is a tank's job, not the healer or DPS. :/

---

Your claim doesn´t make much sense.

It would be the same if the game is getting tuned up to the point where tanks actually need some brain to use, as if the tanks are getting nerfed in their current form. It would be the same... but you´ve less work to adjust some classes instead of redesigning every encounter. On top the game would be like "You need a tank who´s able to make use of ALL his tools, otherwise they group will wipe permanently", if they adjust the encounters only. (I would prefer both combined, but that´s another thing.)

Most of these Warriors posting have me thinking: "What? You wanna take away MY HEALS, HEALER!? I don't need you! I don't need any of you!" - Angy warriors.
Me a sad healer: FeelsSadMan... ):
DRK's who need love: Well, I'm still here... :)

Welp as long as I'm needed somewhere. Gotta find the silver lining somewhere lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ssunny2008

They can. The only bad thing are the overused multi-stack marks. But with a decent cd-management or even LB1 here and there it´s possible and not only on WAR.



Your claim doesn´t make much sense.

It would be the same if the game is getting tuned up to the point where tanks actually need some brain to use, as if the tanks are getting nerfed in their current form. It would be the same... but you´ve less work to adjust some classes instead of redesigning every encounter. On top the game would be like "You need a tank who´s able to make use of ALL his tools, otherwise they group will wipe permanently", if they adjust the encounters only. (I would prefer both combined, but that´s another thing.)

---

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

Again, incoming damage should go up rather than things being taken away from other roles. It doesn't have to be drastic enough that casual players can't complete things, but enough to apparently force GCD heals out of players since that's seemingly what people want. Let's ignore the fact that tanks can't raise, don't have an rDPS increase, and don't have consistently available aoe healing.

You don't see me complaining when I get a normal mode encounter that has two tanks but no actual mechanics for the 2nd tank. I'm just there as a gimp DPS and that's fine, you're there for safety. In the same way that fates are so easy oftentimes you can do them without a tank or a healer. Game's not balanced around fates, and the flexibility of not need specific roles is a good thing actually. If you're a tank or a healer in a fate party you add way more safety though, and there's still value in having you around even if you're not "required".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

---

That doesn't mean we should make it worse. Lowering healing requirements even more (which this expansion did via massive tank healing buffs) is a step in the wrong direction, not the right one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

That doesn't mean we should make it worse. Lowering healing requirements even more (which this expansion did via massive tank healing buffs) is a step in the wrong direction, not the right one.

---

You will still be a safety net in the vast majority of content even if they removed all the self-healing from tanks completely. Again, healing has rarely been so intense that you absolutely 100% need two healers to accomplish your task. It's true for dungeons, for fates, for eureka, bozja, pvp.

You will still be planning out your oGCD heals and doing the bare minimum you need to keep everyone alive, if that.


If you want to spam heals 24/7 then the game needs to change, nerfing tanks won't accomplish anything. Aoe damage should be more frequent, boss autos should either hit harder or occur more frequently, otherwise things will always be the way they've always been.

Healers still have a niche in that they're still the role with the most agency when things go badly. They have the best tools to save other players, make up for people messing up mechanics, etc etc. And that's why people will always WANT to have them even if they don't "NEED" them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praesul

You will still be a safety net in the vast majority of content even if they removed all the self-healing from tanks completely. Again, healing has rarely been so intense that you absolutely 100% need two healers to accomplish your task. It's true for dungeons, for fates, for eureka, bozja, pvp.

You will still be planning out your oGCD heals and doing the bare minimum you need to keep everyone alive, if that.


If you want to spam heals 24/7 then the game needs to change, nerfing tanks won't accomplish anything. Aoe damage should be more frequent, boss autos should either hit harder or occur more frequently, otherwise things will always be the way they've always been.

Healers still have a niche in that they're still the role with the most agency when things go badly. They have the best tools to save other players, make up for people messing up mechanics, etc etc. And that's why people will always WANT to have them even if they don't "NEED" them.

---

I don't think so. There's been times in the game's past when solo healing (and solo tanking, yes) were pretty common. Being able to take 5 or 6 DPS has massive benefits as well - faster kills, less mechanics seen, more reliability. And you'll fill your PF faster.

It's possible SE will continually include mechanics that force 2 tanks and/or healers - they seem fond of shared tankbusters so far in EW, for example - but outside of that, there's no shortage of people all too happy to dump tanks and healers when they can.

-

Now to address the wider issue, because people say similar things on the healer forums: Yes, if you want more healing, there needs to be different and probably more fundamental changes as well. Yes, the low healing requirements have been a "problem" if seen as such for a while.

But more than one problem can exist at a time. Endwalker introduced a new one. Just because this problem exists, doesn't negate the old problems. And just because the old problems exist, doesn't negate the tank healing problem.

This thread is a freaking joke. All I’m reading is good healers are upset there are buttons now to make it so that their job is easier if the tank can play the game. Do you know how many DF runs i’ve done and seen terrible healers/tanks while playing opposite roles. I don’t honestly care if you think healing is trivialized cause it’s just a load of crap. Unless the tank is good and knows to rotate mitigation, can use it on first pulled mob, doesn’t stand in bad, can time certain cds for TB AND is geared well then my job is VERY active. I find myself using adloquiem far more this expansion than last one.

On the tank side unless my healer understands how to weave, can plan ahead, knows how to use buttons like regen, sacred soil, knows not to just press physic/cure1/bend ic 1, is geared gets how to maintain mana and also dps like it goes on and on bro stop crying you feel unneeded. You want to see the state of the games current real skill level go que up for duty finder 10 times and DONT kick bad tank or healer opposite of what you play.