The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Healers don't get stressed when you pull large in level +50 content unless:
- They are bad at healing
- You are bad at tanking
- Either of you are new to the dungeon

Pull wall-to-wall is the general rule in dungeons that are high level because everyone has AOEs.

On the other hand, when a DPS takes the aggro of something and gets ripped to shreds, not pulling it off the DPS causes me to have to heal multiple sources when I could be DPSing.


Honestly, if a tank ended up not pulling mobs off of a DPS in late game dungeons, even if the DPS pulled it, I would probably give them a little nudge to take them before vote kicking them.

Do the job of your class, or get shown the door. If the DPS are pulling more mobs, it's because you are pulling very little, and making the dungeon take twice as long so you can watch netflix while tanking.

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I mean that's a pretty crap attitude, and if you are asking someone to pull past game design, and only stick to your job description, well healers dont have the letters DPS in them, heal or get kicked and that's all you do.

See how dumb that sounds?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The depressing thing is the number of tanks that don't do even that one button.

My personal favorite are the halone heroes that never break off of their first target.

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Well its simply not just 1 button though believe me its watching cool downs as well as your single target rotation or aoe rotation because as a drk if you only spam abyssal drain on big pulls your bad because mp doesnt last forever. If your not using cd's and blackest night as a drk and not weaving in dark arts for drain or quietis on wall to wall pulls you suck.

Not going to lie there are bad tanks out there I've seen my share and have tried to coach them but if someone isn't comfortable with big pulls don't force it on them try ease them into it.

At the end of the day every class has bads healers dps and tanks but a bad dps imo is worse then a bad tank or healer because if you can't do damage for shit you slow everyone down.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The depressing thing is the number of tanks that don't do even that one button.

My personal favorite are the halone heroes that never break off of their first target.

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Ah yes, when you pop diversion & still get aggro because the tank is only attacking 1 of 8 enemies while you cast AOEs.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I mean that's a pretty crap attitude, and if you are asking someone to pull past game design, and only stick to your job description, well healers dont have the letters DPS in them, heal or get kicked and that's all you do.

See how dumb that sounds?

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Yes, telling someone to do less or you are going to kick them does sound stupid. I do encourage the opposite however. If a healer can't DPS & heal (once again, I feel the need to say - not to people who are new to the role) - kick them.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Ah yes, when you pop diversion & still get aggro because the tank is only attacking 1 of 8 enemies while you cast AOEs.

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lol

Been there, done that.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I was mainly talking about a tank doing single pulls, would a normal group of three dps and one healer really be that much slower then a single pull tank and 2 dps 1 healer? Granted I rarely ever queue alone so my experience is rather skewed from the norm.

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Its late for me and i missed that part about pulling only 1 trash mobs groups, so yea there you are right i agree. :p

Bad tanks should be kicked if they are slow, yes indeed.
I want to have adventure in nee... em what, no i dont mean that will discourage people to play a tank if they are being kicked and it benefits me since... ops i did it again.
Nevermind, kick bad tanks in the back! if they are in charge and cant do it, then they shouldnt.

I mean, look the hierarchy goes tank, healer, dps that's overall the way the cookie crumbles. Content is "designed" to be pulled one pack at a time. Just because you can do something , doesnt mean it was intended.

My solution, since we apparently all cannot get along and want to be stubborn? Everything level syncs up so it impossible to do wall to wall, or put more walls in.

Then, we can play by the rules set forth. The tank is the tank, we don't need to worry about anyone pre pulling anything and dps get to dps, healers get to heal.

Now we act like grown adults and avoid this by simply saying, hey tank of you want pull wall to wall I got you. If he say cool, cool. If he says no then he doesn't owe anyone an explanation. It may be a team game but the defacto person in charge is the tank. Dont like it? Just like in life you can promote yourself to team leader by doing the job yourself. This isn't a democracy, it's a meritocracy. That means the tank outranks you. Don't like your circumstance? Change it. Dont like tanking? We all have to sacrifice and do things we don't like to get things accomplished our way and we need to stop pushing our expectations on someone else and take responsibility for our actions and future. Be professional, be tactful, be an adult and respect others wishes while engaging with their hobbies.


Or we can change the game to treat us all like irresponsible whiny entitled children. No skin off my back, I don't get riled up when children throw tantrums, because every pond has scum in it.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I mean, look the hierarchy goes tank, healer, dps that's overall the way the cookie crumbles. Content is "designed" to be pulled one pack at a time. Just because you can do something , doesnt mean it was intended.

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Intent has zero relevance to the impact of design. If you made it to be food, but it works better as an explosive such that everyone soon uses it instead as a weapon, sorry, but that's an explosive.

If it can be done, and doing so is a net gain, then design encourages it. Whether that was intended or not has no place in the conversation.

I believe respecting each other is the very basic of MMO group content

If one found the tank pulling too little and believe the tank could handle more,

I am sure simply asking the tank to pull more would be a more appropriate action than just run ahead

It is the tank job to pull and hold aggro, it is also the job for a tank to access the group and tank personal ability if the tank could pull more. "Ask" is not difficult.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Just like in life you can promote yourself to team leader by doing the job yourself. This isn't a democracy, it's a meritocracy. That means the tank outranks you. Don't like your circumstance? Change it. Dont like tanking? We all have to sacrifice and do things we don't like to get things accomplished our way and we need to stop pushing our expectations on someone else and take responsibility for our actions and future. Be professional, be tactful, be an adult and respect others wishes while engaging with their hobbies.

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It actually is a democracy when the party fires the tank with a votekick.

I'm fine with the game adjusting incoming and outgoing damage to be less paste-eating simple, but that's not something Square is going to do. And unless they do, you'll be expected to operate at a pace your party is comfortable with. Even if that pace is uncomfortable to you personally, time to time. Because the healer can forcibly take over the healing AND tanking roles with the numbers as they are.

Ultimately, a tank's self-importance doesn't count for much when the only reason they remain in the party is that party's good pleasure. Tip the scales and the tank is gone just like that.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

It may be a team game but the defacto person in charge is the tank. Dont like it? Just like in life you can promote yourself to team leader by doing the job yourself. This isn't a democracy, it's a meritocracy.

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Tank can't lead if they aren't the tank anymore. That's simply how it is.
Majority rules - not the tank. If the tank wants to pull slow, and the rest of the group doesn't, they will just end up getting a new tank. You can't lead the group you aren't in anymore.

Also all roles are expected to DPS, not just the DPS roles.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I believe respecting each other is the very basic of MMO group content

If one found the tank pulling too little and believe the tank could handle more,

I am sure simply asking the tank to pull more would be a more appropriate action than just run ahead

It is the tank job to pull and hold aggro, it is also the job for a tank to access the group and tank personal ability if the tank could pull more. "Ask" is not difficult.

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True enough, the ones that get the special assistance are the ones that don't respond to chat. Or they respond with the typical "No." or "You don't pay my sub."

Usually those that respond badly don't even make it to the special assistance phase; I prefer kicking those right then and there.

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That's a dangerous game, because if you just watch while three other people kill the adds -- and they survive without you -- you've just confirmed to three separate people that you aren't really needed.

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That usually doesn't happen (the errant puller surviving, I mean; the vast majority of the time I see this happen when I'm tanking, they end up dying and immediately leaving the dungeon without a word), and quite frankly, as a tank I really don't care if a group decides to kick me. I will get another group far easier than the majority of them.

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Not to mention it's a lot more appealing for a DPS player to kick the tank than to kick the healer, if it comes down to that.

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The majority of melee DPS will do crappier DPS without someone to reliably hold hate for them so they can hit their positionals. Healer DPS will also be compromised too because they will have to do more babysitting.

It's really not "appealing" for DPS to kick their tank just because his pacing is a little slower than they'd like. If they're really just standing around and being useless most of the time, then sure, but otherwise they're usually just shooting themselves in the foot.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That usually doesn't happen (the errant puller surviving, I mean; the vast majority of the time I see this happen when I'm tanking, they end up dying and immediately leaving the dungeon without a word), and quite frankly, as a tank I really don't care if a group decides to kick me. I will get another group far easier than the majority of them.

The majority of melee DPS will do crappier DPS without someone to reliably hold hate for them so they can hit their positionals. Healer DPS will also be compromised too because they will have to do more babysitting.

It's really not "appealing" for DPS to kick their tank just because his pacing is a little slower than they'd like. If they're really just standing around and being useless most of the time, then sure, but otherwise they're usually just shooting themselves in the foot.

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Then we're in agreement! We'd find each others' companionship in a single-pull party to be insufferable, so a tank kick is mutually beneficial.

And honestly, a little bravado from the healer makes a lot of DPS tingly. Something along the lines of "Since he won't tank, I'll be happy to" has always worked for me when a tank attempts (and fails) a wipe.

It actually doesn't really seem like we agree, but sure, if you say so.

Is... Is this actually a thread discussing the morality of and advocating for griefing someone you dont like?

Honestly, this can be settled in 2 sentences;

Use your words.
Don't be an *expletive*


Justify it however you'd like, but you're going out of your way to punish behavior you dont find acceptable- especially so if you're doing it without a word. Assuming this is solely a PUG situation, of course. As someone that both loathes tanks that pull slow and as a tank constantly finding excuses to pull more than is intended (and will continue to do, thank you SE for this torrent of AoE skills raining down upon this barren land).... I'm sorry, going "too slow" isn't an offense. If you're not even willing to give them the common decency of asking, why should they give you the decency of what you want?

Just... talk. should have plenty of time to with all those unbearably slow pulls full of downtime. Met a tank the other day that was recovering from a concussion. sure, teach them a lesson, you are truly the hero this community deserves.

This would be a much different discussion if this were about tanks that dont talk or pull slow out of spite... but just not enough in general in your roulettes? Cmon, guys. this aint a good look and the new ToS is gonna bear down on you. If you want more tanks around, try not treating the ones you have like garbage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Intent has zero relevance to the impact of design. If you made it to be food, but it works better as an explosive such that everyone soon uses it instead as a weapon, sorry, but that's an explosive.

If it can be done, and doing so is a net gain, then design encourages it. Whether that was intended or not has no place in the conversation.

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Intent of design is relative in game design, and i guess we need to lock down your ideas and make sure the intent is made clear then? Since we cannot respect when others play the content as intended:)

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

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Originally Posted by van_arn

It actually is a democracy when the party fires the tank with a votekick.

I'm fine with the game adjusting incoming and outgoing damage to be less paste-eating simple, but that's not something Square is going to do. And unless they do, you'll be expected to operate at a pace your party is comfortable with. Even if that pace is uncomfortable to you personally, time to time. Because the healer can forcibly take over the healing AND tanking roles with the numbers as they are.

Ultimately, a tank's self-importance doesn't count for much when the only reason they remain in the party is that party's good pleasure. Tip the scales and the tank is gone just like that.

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See in democratic system, a bad agent usually is punished by the group for not working together as intended.

There are zero repercussions as a tank, kick me? Fine I re que instantly with little to no loss, i still get my bonus and i am more likely to play with adults than children.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

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In my experience, when the tank dies the healer usually isn't far behind. So yeah, I'd be willing to call bull on this as well. And like you I'm also open to proof if there is any.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

See in democratic system, a bad agent usually is punished by the group for not working together as intended.

There are zero repercussions as a tank, kick me? Fine I re que instantly with little to no loss, i still get my bonus and i am more likely to play with adults than children.

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I'm saying that's perfectly fine; the goal is to merely get rid of the person that got voted out. You're someone else's problem at that point.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Tank can't lead if they aren't the tank anymore. That's simply how it is.
Majority rules - not the tank. If the tank wants to pull slow, and the rest of the group doesn't, they will just end up getting a new tank. You can't lead the group you aren't in anymore.

Also all roles are expected to DPS, not just the DPS roles.

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I just covered this in another comment, in a real world it would work that way because of repercussions/ consequences.

But as a tank, you can kick me. Absolutely nothing can or will happen to me for playing the game as intended. No ban, same q time, same bonus, same everything. Thus it is not a democracy. I will continue leading, and I will lead adults not children.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

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Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now. And even entire boss fights, though PLD with a bit more effort than WAR. MP management and all. Neither want to DO IT of course, DPS and all. But I've both seen it and done it myself on request and when healers have D/Ced. Is that grounds for treating healers like second rate citizens?

Also to clarify, im not throwing you under the bus or anything, I just find the silent animosity to be far too much. if you want someone to do something, ask first. this shouldn't be a hard concept. the response shouldnt be to do your thing, make things harder, and then goad or talk down to someone like theyre a dog. That's pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Also to clarify, im not throwing you under the bus or anything, I just find the silent animosity to be far too much. if you want someone to do something, ask first. this shouldn't be a hard concept. the response shouldnt be to do your thing, make things harder, and then goad or talk down to someone like theyre a dog. That's pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me

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Not sure if this is in response to my post, but what animosity? I think I've not said anything at all in my OP or in any of my posts to appear disgusting or to goad or talk down to anyone?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm saying that's perfectly fine; the goal is to merely get rid of the person that got voted out. You're someone else's problem at that point.

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You are missing the point of the ability to kick, thus you are abusing it in a childish manner.

You are supposed to kick bad actors because it's a negative gain, griefing, abusive behavior, offline, etc. It by in all rights is supposed to be a punishment, that's a core tenant of democracy, this is not the case with the current system. Its is a meritocracy and thus tanks suffer no ill consequences.

Kicking a tank, playing the game as intended under the orginal design is not a net loss to the tank at all, it's a net loss to yourself and the other players. You must wait for another tank, by the time that's happened you could have been done. Meanwhile the other tank you kicked is probably half way through the new dungeon they re q into. Thus it's ethire a zero gain/ zero loss or positive gain because overall they spent less time for the same rewards you receive plus not having to play outside of their box, and most importantly not playing with people who push expectations on a role, instead of doing it themselves like an adult.

I'm sure you are going to strawman my comment by only quoting a specific phrase I mentioned because a constructively conservative is lost upon you.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Not sure if this is in response to my post, but what animosity? I think I've not said anything at all in my OP or in any of my posts to appear disgusting or to goad or talk down to anyone?

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I was meaning in general- the responses here toward slow tanks. not you specifically. i've skimmed too much and skipped over the indiviudal infighting, so i apologize for missing nuggets of the discussion. Slow tanks need to be kicked on sight sort of thing. sure, at the end of the day it doesnt really affect too much, but... are they really the toxic one in that situation. i mostly piggybacked off you since your response seemed tailored against deflecting me, and I wasnt calling you out. I was commenting on this thread and I apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

I was meaning in general- the responses here toward slow tanks. not you specifically. i've skimmed too much and skipped over the indiviudal infighting, so i apologize for missing nuggets of the discussion. Slow tanks need to be kicked on sight sort of thing. sure, at the end of the day it doesnt really affect too much, but... are they really the toxic one in that situation. i mostly piggybacked off you since your response seemed tailored against deflecting me, and I wasnt calling you out. I was commenting on this thread and I apologize for the confusion and misunderstanding

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Ooooh - I wasn't meaning to deflect and actually I think we both think the same ^^ Slow tanks shouldn't be punished since maybe they aren't at the comfort level to full pull and such ^^

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I just covered this in another comment, in a real world it would work that way because of repercussions/ consequences.

But as a tank, you can kick me. Absolutely nothing can or will happen to me for playing the game as intended. No ban, same q time, same bonus, same everything. Thus it is not a democracy. I will continue leading, and I will lead adults not children.

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You can continue attempting to lead, yes. True, you'll get another instant queue by which to play house with another group if you so choose. But you will not be able to actually continue leading, as you would say, adults, so long as their playing competently puts them in conflict with you. You'll simply continue getting kicked, attempting to lead poorly, and being kicked again, until you find a group that is sufficiently inundated to not bother removing you. Whether you'd call those people "adults" -- at the exclusion of anyone who signs up for something to complete that something, and expects that their timing doing something will be spent with the goal of completing it -- or not is up to you.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now.

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I personally find DRK the best for the really large pulls. Enter with Blood Weapon, Delirium, TBN, and full Blood at the ready and you're nigh unkillable for 20 seconds off self-heals alone. Add to that BP, LD, and DRK's mitigation suite and I've damn near soloed large Skalla and Ala Mhigo pulls.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Like I've said in my posts, I always full pull but I also feel for new tanks or those not comfortable full pulling who are kind of being forced to by people like a few in this thread (both healers, btw). What I'd LOVE to see as someone who plays all roles, is a video of a 'healertank' or a healer keeping 3 dps alive and well throughout an entire dungeon, thus proving that a tank is completely and totally not needed. And I don't mean i400+ people running sub expert dungeons. I'd like to see a party of 3 dps + 1 healer completing the most current expert dungeon with minimal wipes successfully in under 30 minutes ^^ Even at 30 minutes, this is about twice what it would take with a proper tank. So, please provide evidence of the so called 'healer can make a party of 3 dps make a tank irrelevant' idea being sprouted here...

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The only thing this tells me is you've not really tried it yourself. It's doable in most content, but at the expert tier it's hit or miss depending on the boss. That said, tanks are an unlimited resources at expert tier, and by the time you make it to the next boss you'll have a replacement ready. Not to mention tanks have absolutely no excuse at expert tier not to multipull, so the kicks are exceptionally easy.

If you'd like to get started for yourself, though, try Snowcloak. The bosses are simple until Fenrir, at which point you'll have fun managing your healing and threat over an extended period. You can also try more bizarre party compositions in other dungeons, such as three healers and a ninja "tank," or just try kicking your tank and seeing how your party does on the boss. It's difficult to express just how fun it can be to use your skills in ways you don't typically use them, like in the worst case using raise as a tankbuster mitigation tool.

As I've said before, it's not about what's fastest or most efficient-- efficiency is often the death of fun, anyway. It's about getting rid of an undesirable from your group, and you all agreeing to stick together to the end. Without that undesirable, just because you can. It just so happens that for a lot of the time, it's hard to tell a tank is missing outside of the damage spikes.

Putting my general shame for this little set of commentors on this thread aside though, i should clarify my stance in the first place-

I do think that large pulls should be the norm- its a benefit to everyone in the group. Should you and your healer be comfortable, there should be 0 reason behind making things run slower. If you're still new, uncomfortable, or don't know what pulls even exist yet (such as a new dungeon being released), thats fine to not go balls to the wall- however, they should be the goal. To work towards that.

That being said, there are a number of factors that need to be worked in for that to be a reality- the first of which being my immediate party. If my healer cant keep me up and my DPS cant even swat a fly down... I'm sorry, your poor performance has revoked your right to big meaty pulls. flat out. If I'm using 2 ramparts in the same pull, you're getting 3 mobs next time. Help me help you.

Second is another I brought up- life circumstance. This also includes comfort and stuff. You're simply not going to get increased performance from someone if you heckle them or make it harder. If I'm pulling what i think I or you can handle and you run off and pull another pack i didnt know i could handle because your buddy did it once? sure, I'll grab them, but if we wipe, I'm -NOT- going to let you deflect it on me because i was too slow for you. and like I said in my first post- This guy came in, was vocal of, and told us they were fresh out of the hospital for a concussion. It takes a special kind of disgusting to treat them like some posters here advocate for.


So... again, I just think this all boils down to 2 things;

1. Use your words. Ask them. Don't demand; Ask. You have a mouth and a brain. Use them.
2. Don't be a jackoff. If you havent asked anything, then you dont have the right to take inaction as a response. If you want to make them miserable, They should have the moral standig to make you miserable.

And yes I'm commenting on this mentality of pulling *for* someone done silently in protest. Because i'll be frankly honest- you expect me to believe the AVERAGE tank is pulling slow and when they do, they fill the screen with profanity and defensive remarks? It HAPPENS, but you expect me to believe its the norm? the majority? get out of here with that. If you have to lie to stand by your case, then what do you even have.

Please just be decent human beings, guys. It's human nature to be polite and cordial- especially if approached amicably. There's exceptions, but dont let them write the rules.


EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I personally find DRK the best for the really large pulls. Enter with Blood Weapon, Delirium, TBN, and full Blood at the ready and you're nigh unkillable for 20 seconds off self-heals alone. Add to that BP, LD, and DRK's mitigation suite and I've damn near soloed large Skalla and Ala Mhigo pulls.

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I dont think DRK are deficient in this regard, but im commenting on a purely "no healer" situation. TBN and AD go a long way, but DRK's survivability against this and especially "soloing" bosses is depressingly lacking compared to the competition

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

See in democratic system, a bad agent usually is punished by the group for not working together as intended.

There are zero repercussions as a tank, kick me? Fine I re que instantly with little to no loss, i still get my bonus and i am more likely to play with adults than children.

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Thing is you are right being removed from a group is not a negative so no need to get annoyed or upset about being removed. It is still adult like behavior so speak to remove someone that simply does not gel with the group. It is not childish to not want play with someone that has a different play style.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Reading a few reddit posts, and also having some discussions with FC mates who pull for 'slow tanks', is there really an 'unwritten rule' that only tanks pull?

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It's not an unwritten rule. It's common sense.

It's also common sense to TALK to someone before taking the situation into your own hands when you know very well that you're not a tank.

I have seen wipes happen because someone got impatient with a slow tank, pulled, and the tank didn't start tanking because they were legitimately afk. The last time I saw this happen the tank's cat pulled the plug of their keyboard so they were fixing it. Had that impatient player simply spoken to the tank they would have quickly found out they were afk. We laughed it off but I have seen other instances of this sort of thing happening lead to arguments.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The only thing this tells me is you've not really tried it yourself.

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Oh, I agree with you that it is totally doable in less than expert content -- I've done it myself in some of the lower level 70 dungeons. However, I guess I just saw you saying that tanks were not needed or irrelevant and took issue with this since I've yet to be able to heal through or complete the latest expert dungeon without a tank. I just figure if you say that tanks are not needed, that you'd be able to prove this by having fun and completing the latest expert dungeon w/ just you healing and 3 dps, again in under 30 mins since that is twice what a good run with a capable tank would do. Because if a tank is truly irrelevant, that means the most relevant content can be done without them.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Funnily enough, tanks... or to be specific, WAR and PLD *can* clear major pulls without a healer right now. And even entire boss fights, though PLD with a bit more effort than WAR. MP management and all. Neither want to DO IT of course, DPS and all. But I've both seen it and done it myself on request and when healers have D/Ced. Is that grounds for treating healers like second rate citizens?

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It's almost like the story/leveling content is so dumbed down roles are more of a convenience then anything, eh?

Personally speaking I've seen tanks kill bosses from start to finish (Zenos, I was in the dungeon - and due to poor communication from both me and the tank, I ended up getting cleaved in the throat. Tank decided to try and just see if they could continue and kill him, and it worked.)

If they are comfortable without one, don't bring one. If the healer in the group isn't DPSing during the time they aren't healing, kick them. Being honest a healer isn't worth their weight in salt if they can't DPS in the current leveling content with how easy it truly is ATM.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Thing is you are right being removed from a group is not a negative so no need to get annoyed or upset about being removed. It is still adult like behavior so speak to remove someone that simply does not gel with the group. It is not childish to not want play with someone that has a different play style.

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I get difference in play style, but demanding all players who tank to be held to a standard outside of game design is childish. Not to mention it completely disregards their own personal preference.

I'm saying that as adults you deal with behavior on a daily basis and you just deal with it because people are human and you will never find me vote kicking someone for playing the game they want. It's a hobby.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

You are missing the point of the ability to kick, thus you are abusing it in a childish manner.

You are supposed to kick bad actors because it's a negative gain, griefing, abusive behavior, offline, etc. It by in all rights is supposed to be a punishment, that's a core tenant of democracy, this is not the case with the current system. Its is a meritocracy and thus tanks suffer no ill consequences.

Kicking a tank, playing the game as intended under the orginal design is not a net loss to the tank at all, it's a net loss to yourself and the other players. You must wait for another tank, by the time that's happened you could have been done. Meanwhile the other tank you kicked is probably half way through the new dungeon they re q into. Thus it's ethire a zero gain/ zero loss or positive gain because overall they spent less time for the same rewards you receive plus not having to play outside of their box, and most importantly not playing with people who push expectations on a role, instead of doing it themselves like an adult.

I'm sure you are going to strawman my comment by only quoting a specific phrase I mentioned because a constructively conservative is lost upon you.

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What's childish is expecting a party to put up with you when they don't like you.

Kicks are there to resolve disputes before they happen. If you're playing in a way that removes you from your party's good graces, you're going to get kicked. This is intentional.

You're also overestimating the amount of time it takes to replace a tank, not to mention how much happier the party that you were kicked from is when you're removed. If there is a penalty to time -- which isn't always, thanks to healers being able to take your job -- it is gladly paid to get rid of the player who has left the party's good graces.

And honestly? If you're in a situation where you're replacing a terrible tank you'll probably make that time back with the replacement's inevitably increased pace.

It happens due to the game design. The reason it didn't happen in FF11 is cause DPS would get smacked if the Tank wasn't already preparing for that enmity and you could only fight one mob at a time or two if you had a brilliant EXP party going on.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

If there is a penalty to time -- which isn't always, thanks to healers being able to take your job -- it is gladly paid to get rid of the player who has left the party's good graces.

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See this right here is what I mean... can a healer take the tanks job in the most current expert dungeon -- please show me ^^ I will gladly admit that I'm in the wrong when I see a party of 3 dps and 1 healer (preferably you or Healer Adjust) complete Ghimlyt Dark in under 30 minutes. Again, this is twice the amount of time it would take with a decent tank, assuming it can be done at all. Of course, if you're @ 410 that is already +50 ilvl over the minimum...not being adversarial, but just genuinely curious if it can be done.

I, for one, am not nearly stupid enough to risk making someone who gets instant queues mad after I spent 45 minutes in one as a damage dealer.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

I get difference in play style, but demanding all players who tank to be held to a standard outside of game design is childish. Not to mention it completely disregards their own personal preference.

I'm saying that as adults you deal with behavior on a daily basis and you just deal with it because people are human and you will never find me vote kicking someone for playing the game they want. It's a hobby.

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For me it comes down to that one persons personal preference should not override the collective groups because the game itself does not set mass pulling as the standard. It is a hobby and sometimes the amount of time people put into the same hobby may differ, and thus they have certain expectations. Just as people have different opinions as to what is fun. If my view of fun does not match the group I am not going to try and force the group to bend to my will, I will either adjust or leave. For me I think it is childish to think that one persons preference should inherently hold more value because they groups standards do not fall in line with game design.

Maybe I am just an odd ball though.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

What's childish is expecting a party to put up with you when they don't like you.

Kicks are there to resolve disputes before they happen. If you're playing in a way that removes you from your party's good graces, you're going to get kicked. This is intentional.

You're also overestimating the amount of time it takes to replace a tank, not to mention how much happier the party that you were kicked from is when you're removed. If there is a penalty to time -- which isn't always, thanks to healers being able to take your job -- it is gladly paid to get rid of the player who has left the party's good graces.

And honestly? If you're in a situation where you're replacing a terrible tank you'll probably make that time back with the replacement's inevitably increased pace.

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Are this is the disconnect, I don't expect anyone to play with me if they dont like me, I agree.

Not liking me because I play how the game is intended or not the way YOU want me to play is childish and is something I only see in daycare and preschool.

Even middle schoolers grow out of that phase.