Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

I mean, you're talking about a single experience you had vs the vast majority of experiences where runs go perfectly fine going wall to wall. Speaking of the OP's scenario, I highly doubt a group of 3 people are telling a tank to pull more if they see he is in min ilevel gear, like why would anyone purposefully want to wipe? And then to talk about tank entitlement in discord afterwards and how tanks should vs should not dictate the pace; it sounds a lot more like the tank was being stubborn about not wanting to grab more despite being perfectly able to gear wise than a group of bullies forcing a brand new tank to do something that would be hazardous to their run. Like, just logically people don't want to make their own lives harder for no good reason. I imagine this tank was being a little angsty about being asked to do it.

Edit: Welp, you deleted your post so this doesn't make sense now lol. Basically Mixt gave an example of how he was forced to pull too much in min ilevel gear and was berated which I replied to.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

Not gonna lie, I've never seen a group wipe in any of those three situations so... Maybe it's just you?

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Naah I've seen it happen. I've never seen any drama because of it though and I play since ARR.
Typically it's the tank that pulls a bit more than the group can handle, says "Sorry, that was too much" and that's that.

Everyone who wants mass pulls, knows that it can be a gamble and that a wipe is always a possibility. After all, that's what you get (or rather got, nowadays mobs are too weak) when you try to find the absolute limits.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

I'm not in love with kicking anyone for playing bad.

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This is what this thread comes down to for me.
If you aren't willing to kick people for being bad at the basics of the game in level +50 dungeons, then it promotes a lazy behavior.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

This is what this thread comes down to for me.
If you aren't willing to kick people for being bad at the basics of the game in level +50 dungeons, then it promotes a lazy behavior.

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If they are bad to the point that the group cannot progress, aye. I kick too.
That never applies to dungeons though and the time you lose while waiting for replacements is usually longer than doing the second half of the dungeon (need to play 15 minutes anyway) with the slowpoke. In the end I don't care too much whether the dungeon takes 20 or 25 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

If they are bad to the point that the group cannot progress, aye. I kick too.
That never applies to dungeons though and the time you lose while waiting for replacements is usually longer than doing the second half of the dungeon (need to play 15 minutes anyway) with the slowpoke. In the end I don't care too much whether the dungeon takes 20 or 25 minutes.

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You're missing the point.
If I get bad player after bad player, I don't care if I time out the dungeon.
If you wanna finish the dungeon with someone such as myself, know your class.

I am a majority rules kind of person, unless reasoning is given as to why someone can't do whatever the majority wants. That said, the tank wasn't wrong for wanting to pull small, but the group also was not wrong for removing him from the group.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

You're missing the point.
If I get bad player after bad player, I don't care if I time out the dungeon.
If you wanna finish the dungeon with someone such as myself, know your class.

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I know my class but you sound like someone really unpleasant to play with. I'd much rather play with someone nice but not all that good then someone who good but rude.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I know my class but you sound like someone really unpleasant to play with. I'd much rather play with someone nice but not all that good then someone who good but rude.

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I'm being blunt, not rude.
I ain't interested in people who are lazy for the sake of being lazy.

Kindness has nothing to do with this.
I ain't gonna be rude when I ask a tank to tank, but I ain't gonna take their crap either.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I'm being blunt, not rude.
I ain't interested in people who are lazy for the sake of being lazy.

Kindness has nothing to do with this.
I ain't gonna be rude when I ask a tank to tank, but I ain't gonna take their crap either.

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Kindness and civility should be the base line for a game where you interact with other people

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Kindness and civility should be the base line for a game where you interact with other people

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What does this have to do with kicking people who are under-performing?
Or are you implying that because I'm willing to tell people to either learn their role, or get kicked that I'm no longer being polite in game.

I kick politely. Stop spreading toxicity @70 by being bad.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Kindness and civility should be the base line for a game where you interact with other people

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Wouldn't the kind and civil thing to do at the very least try? Sure it might go wrong, but if the tank used their cooldowns properly nothing bad would have happened, and even if the tank does not use cooldowns I am sure the healer had faith in their own ability and the ability of the dps to make quick work of the pull. As someone else mentioned I doubt any reasonable person would ask a tank to do something that they knowingly would lead to a wipe.

The reality is if the healer and dps are good enough and the tank at the very least is properly geared and maintains aggro during the large pull the group can get by. Do not get me wrong it makes it easier if the tank uses cooldowns properly but it is not something the over three are unable to overcompensate for.

Being civil and kind is a two way street. I do not think someone expecting another player to try and adapt to the groups pace be it if the group wants large or smaller pulls is not kind or civil, I think someone who digs their heels in the group and refuses what the group wants because lack of desire, or will does show a lack of kindness and civility.

As someone who has mained a PLD for over 4 years, I can clearly answer this for you.

If a tank does not want to do big pulls, that's up to them. If you want big pulls, then main a tank yourself. I personally feel that small pulls are boring regardless of if I am tanking, healing or DPSing, but it is the tank that gets to decide that so deal with it.

Please remember that in many cases a tank is completely new to a dungeon. They have not even completed the map. How can they be expected to do a big pull when they don't even know where to run nor what enemies they will encounter and what tankbusters they may or may not do? When I was new to a lot of level 50 dungeons years ago everyone would demand big pulls from me despite that it was impossible because I didn't have the map completed. I had to cope with a lot of criticism and ragequits that ruined my day.

If you want to set the pace of the run without being the tank, then setup your own party either with friends or in Party Finder, specifically requesting that the tank pace the run a certain way. Otherwise, deal with what you get in Duty Finder.

Personally, I take the view that there are a lot of roulettes for people to get through and as I get to decide whether the run is 16 minutes or 50 minutes, I choose to make it as efficient as I can for them by doing big pulls and DPSing bosses in all but leveling dungeons which are too heavily synced to be worth it. But it's the tank's choice.

Tanks have a lot of jobs the DPS don't have - enemy positioning, enmity management, cooldown management, tank busters, tank swaps, watching the groups health incase they need to adjust based on that - all whilst doing what DPS do... avoid things, DPS and hit damage cooldowns. It's an underappreciated role. As a tank 50% of people want you to do big pulls and 50% of people want you to do small pulls. 50% of people like you stance dancing and the other 50% will berate you for not being in tank stance, especially on EU DC. Tank life is a hard life.

Just like a tank shouldn't be removed for refusing to do big pulls, a healer shouldn't be removed for refusing to DPS and a DPS shouldn't be removed for refusing to AOE. It's their choice not to do these things if you were randomly matched with them in DF. If you created a Party Finder party and said they must do these things in the description, then it's different and you are then right to kick them if they don't.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I'm being blunt, not rude.
I ain't interested in people who are lazy for the sake of being lazy.

Kindness has nothing to do with this.
I ain't gonna be rude when I ask a tank to tank, but I ain't gonna take their crap either.

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you should not rope newbies and slow players into playing with you then, since you have extra requirements. Its not a time attack queue. You are taking advantage of a system made for the lowest common denominator in skill. This is something people attempt story and gear progression with. People who dont have friends or premades to do the content with. And you are victimizing them because you don't like their existence, and you want quick queues.

Nobody signed up for a queue so that you could grade their performance and waste their time based on your whims.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you should not rope newbies and slow players into playing with you then, since you have extra requirements. Its not a time attack queue. You are taking advantage of a system made for the lowest common denominator in skill. This is something people attempt story and gear progression with. People who dont have friends or premades to do the content with. And you are victimizing them because you don't like their existence, and you want quick queues.

Nobody signed up for a queue so that you could grade their performance and waste their time based on your whims.

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You keep using "new player" like it applies to this situation.

As I have said, I don't care if a person who is new to the dungeon, or new to tanking pulls small groups, but I'm not going to give the level 70 WAR/PLD/DRK who queues up in The Burn because they click "Duty Roulette: Expert" a free pass.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Wouldn't the kind and civil thing to do at the very least try? Sure it might go wrong, but if the tank used their cooldowns properly nothing bad would have happened, and even if the tank does not use cooldowns I am sure the healer had faith in their own ability and the ability of the dps to make quick work of the pull. As someone else mentioned I doubt any reasonable person would ask a tank to do something that they knowingly would lead to a wipe.

The reality is if the healer and dps are good enough and the tank at the very least is properly geared and maintains aggro during the large pull the group can get by. Do not get me wrong it makes it easier if the tank uses cooldowns properly but it is not something the over three are unable to overcompensate for.

Being civil and kind is a two way street. I do not think someone expecting another player to try and adapt to the groups pace be it if the group wants large or smaller pulls is not kind or civil, I think someone who digs their heels in the group and refuses what the group wants because lack of desire, or will does show a lack of kindness and civility.

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not really, because its his role. Ultimately as long as his playstyle is a winning one, kicking him is somewhat abusive. No player is an npc, controlled by the will of the other 3.

lets look at it this way.

4 people pay for a shared cab. They find out 1 person's destination will make the trip 15% slower. They demand he get off 5 blocks away, or they will kick him out the cab.

1)why are people choosing to ride share if they can't accept some people's location?
2)why is it riteous that 3 people get to decide where he gets off, for thier own benefit?
3)why is it he has to pay extra, even though he is the one properly using the ride sharing cab?

yes, 3 people are slightly inconvienced by his stop, but if they didnt want random locations they should not be taking random extra passengers and kicking them out, after they pay.

they are more wrong because they are against the spirit of the duty finder, and because they are making him pay for thier error (joining a random queue with specific demands)

Is it fair?

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

You keep using "new player" like it applies to this situation.

As I have said, I don't care if a person who is new to the dungeon, or new to tanking pulls small groups, but I'm not going to give the level 70 WAR/PLD/DRK who queues up in The Burn because they click "Duty Roulette: Expert" a free pass.

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you have no idea why they queued up. Duty Roulette users are paired with any one seeking to complete that dungeon. This is intentional, roulette's exist to give people who don't need the content reasons to help those who do need the content. The burn is a mainstory quest dungeon, which is required to progress in the game.

congratulations on preventing people from getting to shadow bringers because they are not elite enough for you.

even if they have completed it, and are doing expert for the genesis, not sure why you expect them to be great it, to the point you kick them if they are not.

This is not a time attack queue, the main purpose of regular duty finder is for people without friends available, to be able to complete content. Your behavior works against that. There is party finder for people who expect more of their groups for that very reason.

Aren't "small" pulls just... ya know... regular pulls?

Also, what's actually being considered as bad in this thread? Doing regular pulls? Really? Out of all the things a tank can fail at, not pulling huge seems so insignificant to me.

I understand wanting to save time, but I'd never kick over this. I'd just enjoy my single target rotation and move on with having fun in the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you have no idea why they queued up. Duty Roulette users are paired with any one seeking to complete that dungeon. This is intentional, roulette's exist to give people who don't need the content reasons to help those who do need the content. The burn is a mainstory quest dungeon, which is required to progress in the game.

congratulations on preventing people from getting to shadow bringers because they are not elite enough for you.

This is not a time attack queue, the main purpose of regular duty finder is for people without friends available, to be able to complete content. Your behavior works against that. There is party finder for people who expect more of their groups for that very reason.

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The Burn is a level 70 dungeon.
It isn't elitist to expect some of the most basic stuff.
The party finder is irreverent.
I expect some skill of level 70s, even in leveling/story dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sorry, by the what if statements I more so meant as a group should we base our judgement of a player around unseen factors? Or should we assume such factors off the bat and proceed accordingly?

Reason I ask is because I tend to treat people as I would not mind being treated, but as I have noticed that has lead to some interesting encounters because how I am okay with being treated seems to differ from the general soical or communally norms.

For future reference since I do not wish to cause players unnecessary grief do you think instead of using my level of tolerance as a baseline should I go based off some other metric? If so what would you suggest?

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No worries about the what-ifs :)

Much like you, I was raised to treat others as I wish to be treated. To be polite, kind, and courteous towards others. I believe if everyone was like this, the world we live in would be more just, and threads like this would not exist.

Sadly, the world is cruel, and people are cruel. It is not kind, or just, or fair. Despite this, it doesn't and never will change the respect and kindness I will initially show towards others. Only when people show a lack of courtesy and respect will I return it in kind. So to directly answer your question, I am going to say no. The moment we give into defeatism, we're no better than those who are selfish and only care about their own gains in this world. It is absolute that I will be disappointed time and time again by remaining tolerant, I don't care. I refuse to change who I am, and start stepping on others to gain ground.

Tankxiety is a real thing. It does not matter how easy or difficult it actually is. It's easy for one person to get into a hot air balloon as well, but if I do it I will start freaking out as soon as it gets to a height where falling would cause injury or death. The mind is so powerful. It can cripple someone who isn't even in a threatening situation. I know this from my own experience, and I will never underestimate how it can affect others. I would never, ever try to get someone to do something they are not comfortable with. I might try to encourage them through ensuring their safety, but that is about as far as it goes.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

The Burn is a level 70 dungeon.
It isn't elitist to expect some of the most basic stuff.
The party finder is irreverent.
I expect some skill of level 70s, even in leveling/story dungeons.

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level 70 doesnt mean they know the dungeon, it doesnt mean they are well geared. It is not basic stuff. Its a style choice on how they prefer to fight the enemies. Some people hate big pulls, some people love big pulls. Big pulls are faster, they are also more chaotic.

Also they have auto level potions, HoH, Potd, squadrons, sidequests. Level means nothing in terms of skill.

really, why are you using duty finder if you want to avoid getting a random slow player? Why not filter out slow players ahead of time? Why is the slow player penalized because you expected more out of him than duty finder told you to?

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I know my class but you sound like someone really unpleasant to play with. I'd much rather play with someone nice but not all that good then someone who good but rude.

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So, does that mean you would kick them? :p

For me it comes down to this. Are they trying? Can DPS hit aoe button? Can healer use something besides basic GCD single target heals? (like a cooldown) Can tank pull wall to wall (at endgame dungeons, leveling is a different story) and then hold aggro? (don't even care if he stays in tank stance or not) If the tank is under geared for the endgame dungeon (why u do dis????) then that can be adjusted slightly.

If they can do these things than they are doing the basics and get a pass. There is alot of room past these points for people to be "leet". I do not see how any of this criteria would be picking on "casuals" because the vast majority of people I run random duty finder content with, are capable of at least that much.

Level 70 is NOT a new player. As far as why we don't have many tank players.... has anyone stopped to consider that it might actually be boring. Seriously, it's the easiest role to play (my opinion) so I refuse to main it, because I'll fall asleep at the keyboard otherwise.

How about we ask people to not be exceptionally rude, or exceptionally lazy. Gotta respect peoples time, we don't get enough of it in life to waste.

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Originally Posted by Physic

not really, because its his role. Ultimately as long as his playstyle is a winning one, kicking him is somewhat abusive. No player is an npc, controlled by the will of the other 3.

lets look at it this way.

4 people pay for a shared cab. They find out 1 person's destination will make the trip 15% slower. They demand he get off 5 blocks away, or they will kick him out the cab.

1)why are people choosing to ride share if they can't accept some people's location?
2)why is it riteous that 3 people get to decide where he gets off, for thier own benefit?
3)why is it he has to pay extra, even though he is the one properly using the ride sharing cab?

yes, 3 people are slightly inconvienced by his stop, but if they didnt want random locations they should not be taking random extra passengers and kicking them out, after they pay.

they are more wrong because they are against the spirit of the duty finder, and because they are making him pay for thier error (joining a random queue with specific demands)

Is it fair?

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While I am no ride share expert, have only done it three times, from my experience when using ride share each passengers route is on the way no real deviations were ever made. Never ran into the case where someones location was random in the sense that it was not along the same or similar route. So the three in question did not have to alter their plans in any great way. (Might have been luck) not sure how that equates to the same situation.

Where did he 15% extra time come from? If I took part in ride share and three people found out the fourths ride required the driver to take a different route that deviated from their destination or the person willingly wanted to take forever to get out of the car taking micro steps then yeah I do think they would be within their right to be annoyed. Now if some outside factor caused the delay such as an accident caused by speeding, or the person had a hard time getting out of the car for whatever reason. That is a different story.

LOL though if ride share did have a vote system that was based off the majority pretty sure some would have exercised their right to try and vote the fourth out.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

So, does that mean you would kick them? :p

For me it comes down to this. Are they trying? Can DPS hit aoe button? Can healer use something besides basic GCD single target heals? (like a cooldown) Can take pull wall to wall (at endgame dungeons, leveling is a different story) and then hold aggro? (don't even care if he stays in tank stance) If the tank is under geared for the endgame dungeon (why u do dis????) then that can be adjusted slightly.

If they can do these things than they are doing the basics and get a pass. There is alot of room past these points for people to be "leet". I do not see how any of this criteria would be picking on "casuals" because the vast majority of people I run random duty finder content with, are capable of at least that much.

How about we ask people to not be exceptionally rude, or exceptionally lazy. Gotta respect peoples time, we don't get enough of it in life to waste.

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there is no endgame dungeon. They are all progression or sidequest dungeons. There is no undergeared, they have an ilevel requirement. You are likely overgeared. The vast majority of people you play with are not casuals, most people have a lot of experience. The players who arent that good/low ilevel? are generally the people who are more casual, inexperienced, or whatever you want to call it.

basically its most likely not that they are lazy, its that they are not that experienced or skillfull. Duty finder is made for them. Roulette is made so that there is a large number of players of all skil levels so people can complete content.

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Originally Posted by Physic

there is no endgame dungeon. They are all progression or sidequest dungeons. There is no undergeared, they have an ilevel requirement. You are likely overgeared. The vast majority of people you play with are not casuals, most people have a lot of experience. The players who arent that good/low ilevel? are generally the people who are more casual, inexperienced, or whatever you want to call it.

basically its most likely not that they are lazy, its that they are not that experienced or skillfull. Duty finder is made for them. Roulette is made so that there is a large number of players of all skil levels so people can complete content.

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The Burn has an ilvl requirement of 340, a fresh 70 is given 290 gear if they bother to do the class quest. Furthermore, it is gated by the MSQ in such a way that the game is certain the player knows how to push buttons.

By the time a player can meet those gear requirements and gain access, then they have no excuse to not know the basics of the job they are playing.

If they were *given* crafted gear, then they get to learn by a trial by fire. And it is perfectly fine if they keep getting kicked until they learn the basics of their role.

That all aside, the fact remains that if a party doesn't want the bumbling idiot that somehow still doesn't know how fill the role they queued in for, then the party has every right to fire them and replace them with someone that can do their advertised job.

And you can't stop them.

The essentials of big pulls?

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Originally Posted by Awha

While I am no ride share expert, have only done it three times, from my experience when using ride share each passengers route is normally on the way no real deviations were ever made, (Might have been luck) not sure how that equates to the same situation. If I took part in ride share and three people found out the fourths ride required the driver to take a different route that deviated from their destination then yeah I do think they would be within their right to be annoyed.

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it was an example, the real rules of ride share was not the point.

the point is every one has to pay up front before getting a group, in time. Everyone pays extra time until the conflict occurs.
one guy wants to continue to play in a way that is consistent with design of the game
other guys want to play in a different way that is also consistent

why do the other guys get to choose to waste the other guy's initial investment, when no ones initial investment needs to be wasted?

what is fair about 3 people punishing one guy, simply because they disagree on how fast he should do his job?

Majority opinion is not necessarily the correct stance.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The Burn has an ilvl requirement of 340, a fresh 70 is given 290 gear if they bother to do the class quest. Furthermore, it is gated by the MSQ in such a way that the game is certain the player knows how to push buttons.

By the time a player can meet those gear requirements and gain access, then they have no excuse to not know the basics of the job they are playing.

If they were *given* crafted gear, then they get to learn by a trial by fire. And they should repeatedly get kicked if they somehow haven't figured out the essentials by then.

That all aside, the fact remains that if a party doesn't want the bumbling idiot that somehow still doesn't know how fill the role they queued in for, then the party has every right to fire them and replace them with someone that can do their job.

And you can't stop them.

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Not necessarily. At this point is possible to purchase a full set of gear or have a guild be kind and craft you one. So it’s quite easy to get to ilvl380 with little to no effort. And your trial by fire that includes repeatedly kicking them isn’t really conducive to learning and just perpetuates the problem. Fortunately in my experience most players don’t just kick folks unless it was a party finder party they lied their way into.

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Originally Posted by Physic

level 70 doesnt mean they know the dungeon, it doesnt mean they are well geared. It is not basic stuff. Its a style choice on how they prefer to fight the enemies. Some people hate big pulls, some people love big pulls. Big pulls are faster, they are also more chaotic.

Also they have auto level potions, HoH, Potd, squadrons, sidequests. Level means nothing in terms of skill.

really, why are you using duty finder if you want to avoid getting a random slow player? Why not filter out slow players ahead of time? Why is the slow player penalized because you expected more out of him than duty finder told you to?

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You're right. I take it back.
Everyone should be treated like they just started the game because we have auto-level potions & skip potions.

Let's not take into account the fact that the tank would have to level form 60 to 70 still.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to have an iLvl of 340 minimum - more then enough to complete The Burn.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to play a significant amount of content to even access it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to coddle people who decide to use level skipping potions, or story skipping potions, and I'm not going to coddle people who can't do the most basic of functions for their class that they should have learned by level 50.

I refuse to set the bar so low that it becomes "hold aggro & auto attack 4 enemies" for level 70 content.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Not necessarily. At this point is possible to purchase a full set of gear or have a guild be kind and craft you one. So it’s quite easy to get to ilvl380 with little to no effort. And your trial by fire that includes repeatedly kicking them isn’t really conducive to learning and just perpetuates the problem. Fortunately in my experience most players don’t just kick folks unless it was a party finder party they lied their way into.

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When you get lazy, and get gifted/buy iLvl380 gear, and can't even be bothered to pull more then 4 enemies in a dungeon where the iLvl requirement is 340, and that's more then enough - it's laziness.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Not necessarily. At this point is possible to purchase a full set of gear or have a guild be kind and craft you one. So it’s quite easy to get to ilvl380 with little to no effort. And your trial by fire that includes repeatedly kicking them isn’t really conducive to learning.

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Possible isn't likely. And the player that can put in the effort to obtain that gear through the marketboard can put in the effort to learn their job without going potato.

If the gear is given to them, then they have friends that can teach them how to play. Without making a df group suffer.

But df groups don't need to suffer, they can always kick.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

You're right. I take it back.
Everyone should be treated like they just started the game because we have auto-level potions & skip potions.

Let's not take into account the fact that the tank would have to level form 60 to 70 still.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to have an iLvl of 340 minimum - more then enough to complete The Burn.
Let's not take into account that The Burn requires you to play a significant amount of content to even access it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to coddle people who decide to use level skipping potions, or story skipping potions, and I'm not going to coddle people who can't do the most basic of functions for their class that they should have learned by level 50.

I refuse to set the bar so low that it becomes "hold aggro & auto attack 4 enemies" for level 70 content.

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Freaking amen.

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Originally Posted by Physic

it was an example, the real rules of ride share was not the point.

the point is every one has to pay up front before getting a group, in time. Everyone pays extra time until the conflict occurs.
one guy wants to continue to play in a way that is consistent with design of the game
other guys want to play in a different way that is also consistent

why do the other guys get to choose to waste the other guy's initial investment, when no ones initial investment needs to be wasted?

what is fair about 3 people punishing one guy, simply because they disagree on how fast he should do his job?

Majority opinion is not necessarily the correct stance.

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In hypotheticals rules do matter, since said rules have an impact on how one would react to the situation. Because fair is subjective only objective marker we can go by are the rules present in the situation. In aspect of fairness it does not add much to the conversation, since in my case going based off no established, and my stop would caused a delay for the other three people I would simply get off their stop and walk to my desired location since in that would net the largest postive outcome since in theory more people would be generally pleased.

Which sense of fairness is right? What marker could we use to determine that if no rules are present.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Possible isn't likely. And the player that can put in the effort to obtain that gear through the marketboard can put in the effort to learn their job without going potato.

If the gear is given to them, then they have friends that can teach them how to play. Without making a df group suffer.

But df groups don't need to suffer, they can always kick.



Freaking amen.

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Didn’t say they couldn’t kick. I said in my experience most players don’t behave this way.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The Burn has an ilvl requirement of 340, a fresh 70 is given 290 gear if they bother to do the class quest. Furthermore, it is gated by the MSQ in such a way that the game is certain the player knows how to push buttons.

By the time a player can meet those gear requirements and gain access, then they have no excuse to not know the basics of the job they are playing.

If they were *given* crafted gear, then they get to learn by a trial by fire. And it is perfectly fine if they keep getting kicked until they learn the basics.

That all aside, the fact remains that if a party doesn't want the bumbling idiot that somehow still doesn't know how fill the role they queued in for, then the party has every right to fire them and replace them with someone that can do their job.

And you can't stop them.

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big pulls are not a basic skill of tanking. They require being familiar with the level, fairly well geared. being minimal ilevel for tank and healer means more than 2 pulls is probably fatal. Its also a skillset only used in dungeons, which is no longer the only way to level, and also in no way required, or even reccomended by any mechanic in the game.

if you dont want a chance of slow player (because some one pulling one group is not necessarily a bumbling idiot). Make speed run guild, or a party finder, or ask in discord. Dont punish people for attempting to play the game in casual content in a casual way.

you cant stop people from punching random people in the face either, it doesnt mean its the right course of action.

but lets be honest, you enjoy punishing people who annoy you, even if its unintentional. you could care less if SE told people not to, unless they could realistically enforce it. For you, its really only about yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Didn’t say they couldn’t kick. I said in my experience most players don’t behave this way.

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This is true; I'd say we need more kicks though. The fact that so many players can make it so far into the game without knowing the basics is partially the community's fault for permitting leeching.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Didn’t say they couldn’t kick. I said in my experience most players don’t behave this way.

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Kick is the final solution.
It's a solution that most people don't want to use, but feel they need to put on the table at some point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

In hypotheticals rules do matter, since said rules have an impact on how one would react to the situation. Because fair is subjective only objective marker we can go by are the rules present in the situation. In aspect of fairness it does not add much to the conversation, since in my case going based off no established, and my stop would caused a delay for the other three people I would simply get off their stop and walk to my desired location since in that would net the largest postive outcome since in theory more people would be generally pleased.

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why is it fair that you suffer for their benefit, even though you were using the service as advertised?

even if you yourself put the desires of the many, over your own rights, do you understand why that should be a choice, and not a requirement?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

why is it fair that you suffer for their benefit, even though you were using the service as advertised?

even if you yourself put the desires of the many, over your own rights, do you understand why that should be a choice, and not a requirement?

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In either case, people are suffering for somebody else's benefit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by van_arn

This is true; I'd say we need more kicks though. The fact that so many players can make it so far into the game without knowing the basics is partially the community's fault for permitting leeching.

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a tank is not leeching by doing small pulls, in fact he is probably working harder than he needs to. Kicking people doesnt teach them anything, other than to hate other players, or kick players that annoy them, if they accept your premise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

big pulls are not a basic skill of tanking. They require being familiar with the level, fairly well geared. being minimal ilevel for tank and healer means more than 2 pulls is probably fatal. Its also a skillset only used in dungeons, which is no longer the only way to level, and also in no way required, or even reccomended by any mechanic in the game.

if you dont want a chance of slow player (because some one pulling one group is not necessarily a bumbling idiot). Make speed run guild, or a party finder, or ask in discord. Dont punish people for attempting to play the game in casual content in a casual way.

you cant stop people from punching random people in the face either, it doesnt mean its the right course of action.

but lets be honest, you enjoy punishing people who annoy you, even if its unintentional. you could care less if SE told people not to, unless they could realistically enforce it. For you, its really only about yourself.

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You aren't qualified to say what I feel or what I like. I can do that just fine on my own, thanks.

As for the necessity of a pf group, we're now at the point in the expansion where someone that wants to run min ilvl can create their own pf group. If someone can't handle the mechanics in post-stormblood gated content, then they can be the laughable person in pf forming a learning party for the Burn.

I'll say now as I always have been, the right course of action is to follow the party's wishes. I'm fine on just bailing and eating the 30 minute penalty if two dps and a tank don't want to multipull, but it's not difficult to see one of those two dps click yes to get rid of a slow tank in this dungeon.

In that situation, it's time to multipull. And if they don't know how by this point, then they can go back to a lower-tier dungeon where they can learn at their leisure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

a tank is not leeching by doing small pulls, in fact he is probably working harder than he needs to. Kicking people doesnt teach them anything, other than to hate other players, or kick players that annoy them, if they accept your premise.

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How have you gone from "small pulls > large pulls" to "Small pulls = harder working than big pulls."