[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Yeah...good point, but the advance jobs that we're all talking about putting in, I think we would need a more comprehensive list with some good examples of the way the armory system could be used to augment them. Warrior, monk, thief, ranger, dark knight, paladin, ranger, dragoon, samurai, ninja, black mage, white mage, red mage, summoner, beast master.

You'll notice I put summoner and beast master last because I don't think they'll be implemented for quite some while. Now, we've put a lot of thought into drk, pld, rdm, and blm, but what about warrior and monk? To unlock them using the system we discussed earlier would mean they would have to unlock abilities correct? But which abilities could they use to unlock the classes and still be different to the abilities those jobs could unlock on their own is the question. Warrior is a mix of gladiator and marauder, which in my mind would be one of the hardest classes to implement because really what could you give them that marauder and gladiator don't already have? These are the hardball questions that need to be asked before we could really demand anything from the dev team asfar as answers go

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This is exactly what I tried to express in my last few posts.

I think the concept itself is flawless, but the ways to implement it still needs a bit of work.There are very good propositions in place, but there are still some gray zones as you just pointed out.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

The only question I had at the time with this post and it's still not clear to me is whether the poster wanted a) that those stats allocations are permanent for the base weapon class (i-e gaining 1 rank on GLA as a DRK would permanently add 4STR, 1DEX and 3VIT to your GLA, think of the esper bonus system in FFVI), or b)if the stats per rank of a basic weapon class are automatically reallocated when you switch title. In any case, what happens to the stats of your basic weapon class when you have no title equipped?

There are potential balance problems with either possibility. In case (a), permanently allocating stats would greatly alter the possibilities in a system where in theory you play only 1 character. Also, you need to stop everything you do so you don't waste levels with lower bonuses in stats? What about the current rank50?In case (b), several questions remain, i-e, say you can unlock titles at rank 30. But when you have it, can you equip a title on your rank 10 THM? If so, how will it affect your THM stats? Or do you have to wait to rank 30 to equip a title? This also takes its importance considering point (a)

You see, there are several good propositions but I don't think that they all have been optimized. I would like this proposition you cited, but I would prefer more customization by either allocating myself a reduced (compared to now) amount of stat points depending on the way I want to play, or to unlock bonuses in a grid system (HP+3%, STR+2, VIT+4, for example; a PLD grid would have higher occurrence of HP+, enmity+ and VIT+ slots compared to DRK which would have many ATT+ and STR+ slots to unlock so you would have to choose where you want to allocate your points).

This is an example to illustrate that even though many suggestions are in the thread, I think that there still are several possibilities.

That being said I realize that just because I personally am not fully satisfied with the current propositions on how to allocate abilities, traits and stats does not mean that the OP's suggestion is incomplete.

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Alright, I'm back from work and would like to adress these issues with what I have in mind. Hopefully we can come up with an answer to the questions as a community giving each other good ideas and constructive criticism. Now, let me adress the two points you made in your first post after mine.

Yes, the bonuses gained from leveling your title to the next tier would always be present depending on which class you had equipped (not a permanent bonus though), however the stat bonuses would depend on the rank of the class equipped and type of class equipped (lol, I think I just repeated myself). Now, you would have to put in static stat allocation for the base classes and get rid of the player allocated points. Right now stats are broken and I don't think by making it static you would be hurting anything.

Now, assuming stat allocation is static and determined by the developers it's therefore not a balancing issue. the stats for a r50 gladiator would be static and the bonuses gained from having an advanced job would just augment them. when you switched from r50 gladiator to r10 thaumaturge, your actual stats come from the weapon spec and the bonuses are just gained from the title. and remember the stat bonuses gained from your title would vary depending on the weapon spec equipped, the bonuses you get from dark knight would be different for gladiator than for thaumaturge, but it would indeed differ from r50 to r10 unless you were a master dark knight. the master dark knight high point bonuses would carry over to a low class weapon spec. this is to reward high level players trying to level low ranking specializations, not to punish low level people. to be honest this is the same as new players in ff:xi having no subjob and veteran players having a subjob no matter what level their main was.

Going on to my final part of this response, the stat bonuses gained from your title could indeed be changed using the "sphere grid" system to add different percentages to the bonuses your title gives to any given stat. but I think this should be something of a either/or choice. you either gain the percentages to stats, bonus effects to spells, increased weapon skill dmg, or maybe a passive trait. active abilities and title specific spells will always be given at the advancement to next tier no matter what.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

This is exactly what I tried to express in my last few posts.

I think the concept itself is flawless, but the ways to implement it still needs a bit of work.There are very good propositions in place, but there are still some gray zones as you just pointed out.

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Right, and I'll be honest I stopped playing the game in november BUT I will try and study a little more about the current classes. I didn't say that being able to come up with something for warrior would be impossible, just a little more difficult given what we have to work with. Now what comes to mind first is the adjustment of bonuses given by titles and making warrior the generic title I was referring to earlier. The bonuses given by warrior could be those that strengthen the skills and abilities already given to the base weapon spec's. the sphere grid for warrior could also give percentage bonuses to the stats static to the base DoW classes. now as far as DoM goes that's actually an easier fix and I believe all DoM issues have been adressed earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Alright, I'm back from work and would like to adress these issues with what I have in mind. Hopefully we can come up with an answer to the questions as a community giving each other good ideas and constructive criticism. Now, let me adress the two points you made in your first post after mine.

Yes, the bonuses gained from leveling your title to the next tier would always be present depending on which class you had equipped (not a permanent bonus though), however the stat bonuses would depend on the rank of the class equipped and type of class equipped (lol, I think I just repeated myself). Now, you would have to put in static stat allocation for the base classes and get rid of the player allocated points. Right now stats are broken and I don't think by making it static you would be hurting anything.

Now, assuming stat allocation is static and determined by the developers it's therefore not a balancing issue. the stats for a r50 gladiator would be static and the bonuses gained from having an advanced job would just augment them. when you switched from r50 gladiator to r10 thaumaturge, your actual stats come from the weapon spec and the bonuses are just gained from the title. and remember the stat bonuses gained from your title would vary depending on the weapon spec equipped, the bonuses you get from dark knight would be different for gladiator than for thaumaturge, but it would indeed differ from r50 to r10 unless you were a master dark knight. the master dark knight high point bonuses would carry over to a low class weapon spec. this is to reward high level players trying to level low ranking specializations, not to punish low level people. to be honest this is the same as new players in ff:xi having no subjob and veteran players having a subjob no matter what level their main was.

Going on to my final part of this response, the stat bonuses gained from your title could indeed be changed using the "sphere grid" system to add different percentages to the bonuses your title gives to any given stat. but I think this should be something of a either/or choice. you either gain the percentages to stats, bonus effects to spells, increased weapon skill dmg, or maybe a passive trait. active abilities and title specific spells will always be given at the advancement to next tier no matter what.

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Ok I needed to read this a few times but I think I understand. So you add some of your own ideas and some discussed in the thread to the example that you brought in the previous page.

From what I understand, and I think that is the main issue that prevented me from understanding your points before, there would basically be no progression (in terms of stats, abilities) between 2 title tiers, as there is no progression in your stats between 2 ranks or levels right now. So in this situation, the word "tier" would be just another way to say rank or level? After reaching tier 2, you get a bunch of stats bonuses and abilities that remain the same until the next tier?

I have to say, this would be a huge improvement over the current system. Personally tho, I would prefer even more customization and progression in between the tiers, that's where I came from with a grid-like system (yeah I know I'm becoming annoying with the grids lol, btw they don't have to be "sphere" grids).

Say you have one grid per title per tier. For example, you have a Dragoon tier 1 grid, dragoon tier 2, dragoon tier 3... If you play Paladin, you have tier 1, 2, 3 paladin etc. You need to meet certain requirements (weapon spec rank, NM fight, number of slots unlocked in the grid) to advance to the next tier and within each tier, you can only earn enough points to unlock a percentage of the slots in that grid.

For Dragoon tier 1 grid, "Jump" is your starting ability then you choose your path toward either str+, enmity-, hp+ path and strong weapon skills or rather crowd-control abilities, hate shed/transfer, enfeebling path, depending on the strength and weaknesses of your weapon spec. Once you meet the requirements to unlock tier 2 grid for dragoon, you keep all your tier 1 bonuses, plus you start to unlock tier 2 bonuses in a whole new grid, which starting point is "Call Wyvern".

So this allows you more customization and progression between tiers.

However at this point it's very much a matter of personal preferences.

I think that the system you propose could actually be easier to implement. But you say that the bonuses are different according to your weapon spec... Don't you think it would be complicated to attribute (and balance) different bonuses to all the possible combinations of weaponspec/title? I see where you're coming from though and I like the idea I just see difficulties in the process of balancing the stats for say, 8 weapon specs x 12 titles x 5 tiers possibilities.

Thanks for replying to my previous posts

well I know it's difficult but it's a multi million dollar game, the ability to have different stats between weapon classes is a must that will allow alot of different customization without completely getting rid of the armory system. and yes what you're thinking of with the grid system at tier leveling is exactly what I'm saying should be implemented (with of course, the option of "paying" for a grid reset).

I for example want to play a dark knight tank, something that might've been done in ff:xi but for stat differences couldn't, I would level the proper classesd to obtain the necessary spells/abilities to unlock dark knight, I do the title quest and unlock it. I equip dark knight as my title, and gladiator as my weapon specialization. Now lets say I'm a rank 20 gladiator, if the stats were static I can assume (just for examples sake) my STR to be 30, VIT be 40, DEX be 30, MND 20, INT 20 or what have you. Now I equip my dark knight title, it grants a +1 STR/VIT and lets say for every level of gladiator I have equipped so now I have STR 50 VIT 60 DEX 30 MND 20 INT 20. as I progress my dark knight title the +1 str/vit becomes +5str/vit +3 dex for every level of gladiator I have, so as a rank20 gladiator I now have 130 STR VIT 140 DEX 90. now that is VERY VERY rough example of how the system could work, please don't take it at face value. you could see the clear benefits of getting an advanced job and how it might be used to augment any base weapon class. (marauder being very heavy on str, pugulist being a balance of str/dex etc etc)

Then again I might not choose to take those stat bonuses as my title bonus and instead opt for something along the lines of a passive ability that makes my atk buffs last longer, or my absorbs drain massive amounts of stat you see? it's pick and choose and definitely allows for greater customization of the job you want to play.

And really balancing the different titles and tiers it's all done with percentages, it would be difficult I'm sure but not impossible, it only took a day for the community to come up with that leveling scheme. the best way to possibly do it is to give a percentage type bonus, tier 1 giving you 1% (for dark knight lol, I use it for all my examples because thats the class I love to play) for str/vit with a gladiator spec, but giving you a 2% str bonus with marauder spec. Percentages are easiest to implement and the easiest to balance out after releasing. nerf's or boosts would happen after implementation I'm sure, but that just goes with the territory of making an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

well I know it's difficult but it's a multi million dollar game, the ability to have different stats between weapon classes is a must that will allow alot of different customization without completely getting rid of the armory system. and yes what you're thinking of with the grid system at tier leveling is exactly what I'm saying should be implemented (with of course, the option of "paying" for a grid reset).

I for example want to play a dark knight tank, something that might've been done in ff:xi but for stat differences couldn't, I would level the proper classesd to obtain the necessary spells/abilities to unlock dark knight, I do the title quest and unlock it. I equip dark knight as my title, and gladiator as my weapon specialization. Now lets say I'm a rank 20 gladiator, if the stats were static I can assume (just for examples sake) my STR to be 30, VIT be 40, DEX be 30, MND 20, INT 20 or what have you. Now I equip my dark knight title, it grants a +1 STR/VIT and lets say for every level of gladiator I have equipped so now I have STR 50 VIT 60 DEX 30 MND 20 INT 20. as I progress my dark knight title the +1 str/vit becomes +5str/vit +3 dex for every level of gladiator I have, so as a rank20 gladiator I now have 130 STR VIT 140 DEX 90. now that is VERY VERY rough example of how the system could work, please don't take it at face value. you could see the clear benefits of getting an advanced job and how it might be used to augment any base weapon class. (marauder being very heavy on str, pugulist being a balance of str/dex etc etc)

Then again I might not choose to take those stat bonuses as my title bonus and instead opt for something along the lines of a passive ability that makes my atk buffs last longer, or my absorbs drain massive amounts of stat you see? it's pick and choose and definitely allows for greater customization of the job you want to play.

And really balancing the different titles and tiers it's all done with percentages, it would be difficult I'm sure but not impossible, it only took a day for the community to come up with that leveling scheme. the best way to possibly do it is to give a percentage type bonus, tier 1 giving you 1% (for dark knight lol, I use it for all my examples because thats the class I love to play) for str/vit with a gladiator spec, but giving you a 2% str bonus with marauder spec. Percentages are easiest to implement and the easiest to balance out after releasing. nerf's or boosts would happen after implementation I'm sure, but that just goes with the territory of making an MMO.

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Yup it's becoming clearer.

Considering the grid system I propose, I would like to be able to reallocate my points to different slots at any time. If for one fight I want to go full attack and damage then I could.

I think we are both kind of saying the same thing in the essence behind the mechanics. The point being that bonuses could be different depending on your weapon spec and thus that your role and style of play could also be very different with the same title.

Working with % bonuses is definitely a much better way to work and would simplify a lot the system. No point in granting GLA a +2STR +1VIT bonus per rank with DRK title instead of +3STR and +1DEX to your MRD with the same title. If your MRD already has higher base STR and lower base VIT, the same % bonus granted by the DRK title would actually be different depending on your weapon spec.

Finally I would definitely like to be able to pick and choose my bonuses in one way or another. It opens so much more possibilities and unique game play.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

Yup it's becoming clearer.

Considering the grid system I propose, I would like to be able to reallocate my points to different slots at any time. If for one fight I want to go full attack and damage then I could.

I think we are both kind of saying the same thing in the essence behind the mechanics. The point being that bonuses could be different depending on your weapon spec and thus that your role and style of play could also be very different with the same title.

Working with % bonuses is definitely a much better way to work and would simplify a lot the system. No point in granting GLA a +2STR +1VIT bonus per rank with DRK title instead of +3STR and +1DEX to your MRD with the same title. If your MRD already has higher base STR and lower base VIT, the same % bonus granted by the DRK title would actually be different depending on your weapon spec.

Finally I would definitely like to be able to pick and choose my bonuses in one way or another. It opens so much more possibilities and unique game play.

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Right, cairdeas and I actually got real indepth with choosing your bonuses at tier advancement if you want to read back that far lol. Really the only issue in my mind is the balancing between the DoW classes, I mean that warrior, monk, dragoon all only get abilities...you wouldn't really be able to compound abilities like you could for paladin and dark knight. Maybe you guys could think of some ideas for balancing? I'm sure you must have some ideas for dragoon.

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...but what about warrior and monk? [...] But which abilities could they use to unlock the classes and still be different to the abilities those jobs could unlock on their own is the question. Warrior is a mix of gladiator and marauder, which in my mind would be one of the hardest classes to implement because really what could you give them that marauder and gladiator don't already have?

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I think some assume that "weapon specialization" and "title" are completely different things, but they are both substantially just labels for looks and skills of a character. Titles just allow to give more unique traits to classes.

So, when you say "What do we give WAR that GLD or MRD don't have?" you are saying "what fighting skills we give to a fighter that a sword fighter and an axe fighter don't have?"
It's redundant. I believe in this system certain titles are better scrapped, like WAR.
Make melee weapon specialists have more unique titles, such as PLD, DRK, DRG... and make more new titles if necessary. There's no reason to cling to FFXI jobs precisely.
In the case of "WAR" it is already diluted in the other classes.

Melee classes are similar in their gameplay to FFXI melee obs. You go and maul the enemy with your weapon of choice.
Mages however are much more different. If you make a "BLM" you won't be redundant with the two base classes, however if you make a WAR title, you will.

It was already generic in FFXI, it would be simply unnecessary in FFXIV. GLD and MRD are your WAR. PUG is your MNK.

That said, if you all really like WAR as title, a warrior is "Someone adept at warfare combat" which means a fighter skilled at fighting in group against other groups. Give it AoE melee buffs/debuffs like "Warcry" from FFXI, dual wield, enmity bonuses, crowd control skills that allow parties to fight multiple monsters (like long lasting AoE stun)... which i don't think is that difficult to do.

Also, remember the system OP proposed is good because it's simple. Grids and other madness should be kept for future expansions.

Grids were just a method to choose your own bonuses when leveling your title. And warrior was just an example, and I was just concerned about the people who don't really want to have to take the advanced jobs, warrior was a generic term so gladiator and marauder would have advanced options that would augment their current play style.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I think some assume that "weapon specialization" and "title" are completely different things, but they are both substantially just labels for looks and skills of a character. Titles just allow to give more unique traits to classes.

So, when you say "What do we give WAR that GLD or MRD don't have?" you are saying "what fighting skills we give to a fighter that a sword fighter and an axe fighter don't have?"
It's redundant. I believe in this system certain titles are better scrapped, like WAR.
Make melee weapon specialists have more unique titles, such as PLD, DRK, DRG... and make more new titles if necessary. There's no reason to cling to FFXI jobs precisely.
In the case of "WAR" it is already diluted in the other classes.

Melee classes are similar in their gameplay to FFXI melee obs. You go and maul the enemy with your weapon of choice.
Mages however are much more different. If you make a "BLM" you won't be redundant with the two base classes, however if you make a WAR title, you will.

It was already generic in FFXI, it would be simply unnecessary in FFXIV. GLD and MRD are your WAR. PUG is your MNK.

That said, if you all really like WAR as title, a warrior is "Someone adept at warfare combat" which means a fighter skilled at fighting in group against other groups. Give it AoE melee buffs/debuffs like "Warcry" from FFXI, dual wield, enmity bonuses, crowd control skills that allow parties to fight multiple monsters (like long lasting AoE stun)... which i don't think is that difficult to do.

Also, remember the system OP proposed is good because it's simple. Grids and other madness should be kept for future expansions.

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Very well said. It's easy to use previous games as comparisons but we don't actually need to recreate all this stuff. There are well enough possible jobs to choose from in order to avoid redundancy and maybe jobs like warrior could just be put aside.

Also I used the grid as an example because it has been done in the past and allows customization. It could be anything else, I just wish that there would be a way that a player who plays as DRG/LNC is different from another DRG/LNC beside gear. I was thinking of something similar to the merit points system but with a visual representation. This was actually simple.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Grids were just a method to choose your own bonuses when leveling your title. And warrior was just an example, and I was just concerned about the people who don't really want to have to take the advanced jobs, warrior was a generic term so gladiator and marauder would have advanced options that would augment their current play style.

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In the short term there may be a need for maybe 4 to 8 titles so just leave warrior for now (I know it was just an example, point is I think we can work on the easiest matches). Then with time and further expansions there will be additional weapon specs so the possibilities to add and tweak titles will be exponential.

Or they could call it by its Japanese name of Fighter.

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Originally Posted by Shikyo

so should a blm be able to use axe's swords ect?

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In short Yes, Should they be the most effective option? No. But it should be up to the player to determine black mage shouldn't use swords or axes, not the game.

well I mean warrior, fighter, adventurer, etc etc. whatever you want to call it. in the end I'm just worried that you need a generic title to put on the base DoW classes so people who don't want to play paladin, dark knight, or dragoon have something to fall back on if they still want to play a melee character.

and yeah, blm should be able to use an axe but they're definitely gonna suck at it lol. the beauty of this system is that it allows any type of customization you want but you're the one that has to deal with the penalties involved with doing something crazy like that. I'm just a staunch supporter of this idea and I'm gonna see it through to the end or at least until we find out exactly what type of class introduction system they're going to go ahead with.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Grids were just a method to choose your own bonuses when leveling your title. And warrior was just an example, and I was just concerned about the people who don't really want to have to take the advanced jobs, warrior was a generic term so gladiator and marauder would have advanced options that would augment their current play style.

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I understand what grids are, but obviously no one will change the system completely in one night. Adding the titles would already be big enough and it would bring the much needed class uniqueness. Improving customization is all another matter, it brings forth balancing issues and complications many people could frown about. I personally like the grid idea a lot, but if we want to actually try proposing this we should thread lightly. Then again, i may be wrong.

Those who don't want specialized titles can stick with the basic classes. Instead of having particular skills they'll be jacks-of-all-trades, their skill slots free from particular specialized skills or gameplay types.

Actually, i believe many would chose this option for solo and pick titles and related skills for party combat.

If you force everyone to take a specific title and use title skills you virtually bring back FFXI jobs and fixed roles. We need uniqueness, not constraints.

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Originally Posted by Shikyo

so should a blm be able to use axe's swords ect?

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As Cairdeas says. Ideally there would be situations or play types that make it an interesting option. For example, a monster weak to physical damage. Losing the staff's skills and bonus to magic stats would be acceptable thanks to the gained sword damage and skills, while you still use the characteristic BLM nukes. It is also more viable with another staff mage in the party casting enfeeblements and heals.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I understand what grids are, but obviously no one will change the system completely in one night. Adding the titles would already be big enough and it would bring the much needed class uniqueness. Improving customization is all another matter, it brings forth balancing issues and complications many people could frown about. I personally like the grid idea a lot, but if we want to actually try proposing this we should thread lightly. Then again, i may be wrong.

Those who don't want specialized titles can stick with the basic classes. Instead of having particular skills they'll be jacks-of-all-trades, their skill slots free from particular specialized skills or gameplay types.

Actually, i believe many would chose this option for solo and pick titles and related skills for party combat.

If you force everyone to take a specific title and use title skills you virtually bring back FFXI jobs and fixed roles. We need uniqueness, not constraints.

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I know, thats really what I want is to bring back the ff:xi jobs (well classic ff jobs in general) but I don't want fixed roles. thats why you would need the grid system to bring in customization to the roles. a dark knight being a tank, dd, or enfeebler. a paladin being a tank, dd, or off-heal/buff. dragoon being dd, enmity control, crowd control. if you just put in abilities given to the titles then it's not really doing anything special, it's just slapping a title on a broken system. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, don't get offended. I just want you see why it's important that you do, afterall, have to get complicated with it. Even if you did put in basic titles and didn't give anything to the current classes the outcry would be tremendous.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I know, thats really what I want is to bring back the ff:xi jobs (well classic ff jobs in general) but I don't want fixed roles. thats why you would need the grid system to bring in customization to the roles. a dark knight being a tank, dd, or enfeebler. a paladin being a tank, dd, or off-heal/buff. dragoon being dd, enmity control, crowd control. if you just put in abilities given to the titles then it's not really doing anything special, it's just slapping a title on a broken system. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, don't get offended. I just want you see why it's important that you do, afterall, have to get complicated with it. Even if you did put in basic titles and didn't give anything to the current classes the outcry would be tremendous.

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If you give stat bonuses to titles it means you make them better than classes. It means you can't mix-match classes and titles in a party. You actually create constraints, you force everyone to have a title at some point: it's a return to FFXI.

Plus, the system isn't broken (tell me what's broken?), it's just too boring.

I say:
Titles can use specific role skills (even without a staff a BLM still has fire, thunder etc); small stat bonuses and/or extra skills with specific title gear (so BLM gear would be wearable by anyone but would have mediocre stats, becoming really good only with that title); special title-exclusive skills.

That's all we need and that's the only thing everyone agrees on, i think. And i believe it's the limit of what we have a chance to be listened for (including title requirements).

You play like a BLM (cast BLM spells and use BLM skills), you wear BLM gear and you can still use any weapon you want, with its attached skills.

Adding bonuses to magic would be useless and make the base classes logically weaker, unless they have better gear. But better gear would make BLM weaker, logically. Sure, you can balance it, but it's redundant to go this far.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

If you give stat bonuses to titles it means you make them better than classes. It means you can't mix-match classes and titles in a party. You actually create constraints, you force everyone to have a title at some point: it's a return to FFXI.

Plus, the system isn't broken (tell me what's broken?), it's just too boring.

I say:
Titles can use specific role skills (even without a staff a BLM still has fire, thunder etc); small stat bonuses and/or extra skills with specific title gear (so BLM gear would be wearable by anyone but would have mediocre stats, becoming really good only with that title); special title-exclusive skills.

That's all we need and that's the only thing everyone agrees on, i think. And i believe it's the limit of what we have a chance to be listened for (including title requirements).

You play like a BLM, you wear BLM gear and you can still use any weapon you want, with its attached skills.

Adding random bonuses to magic would be useless and make the base classes logically weaker, unless they have better gear. But better gear would make BLM weaker, logically. Sure, you can balance it, but it's redundant to go this far.

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Lol I think you didn't fully understand what we meant by title stat bonuses. You get small percentage bonuses from your title based on your equipped weapon specialization. Giving the title those bonuses allows the titles to be more than just locked into whatever weapon spec you give them and it allows you to implement new weapons into the game.

And yes, you do force everyone to get a title, just like you had to have a subjob in ff:xi and you have to place your talent point into a certain spec in other games. But my solution to that was to have a generic title that give balanced percentage bonuses to the base DoW classes so you you're not forced to play dark knight, paladin, or dragoon.

And on another note, we have no idea what yoshi-p will listen to lol, but if we completely flesh out these ideas to encompass all variables and present them in an ordered and logical manner THAT is probably the best way to get listened to.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

And on another note, we have no idea what yoshi-p will listen to lol, but if we completely flesh out these ideas to encompass all variables and present them in an ordered and logical manner THAT is probably the best way to get listened to.

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Yes, so we have to keep it as simple as possible. Simple to understand and simple for them to implement.

I understood what you mean by title stat bonuses and i also agree that the way you suggest is viable. What i don't get is why you would like it more.

- You practically remake FFXI jobs:

starter jobs (classes) > level requirement > advanced jobs (titles) [solo, party, etc.]

it's a form of evolution, from worst to better.

You start as a Gladiator or a Marauder and become...a Warrior or a Fighter? You gain stat boosts and gain a generic title and generic fighting skills. As a warrior you have better stats than equal levels of GLD or MRD, which means its useless for them to level the classes further. We have to cap the levels of those then, otherwise players will feel the system is broken. The classes thus become starter jobs. If you make different level requirements to get a title you will force people to level the classes even though they are weaker...

- I suggest the following:

classes > you want to specialize > level requirement > titles (bonus skills and title gear) [party, behest, instances]
classes > jack of all trades > level the classes to gain specific skills > strong all-rounder class [solo, quests, etc.]

its a form of specialization, from generic to specific, and you can chose.

It's longer to schematize, but it's not a change, it's an expansion. In a party specialized roles will give forth to party strategies, while in solo you can still play with the current system.

I think it's more dynamic and thus entertaining than to reach your title and forget about classes.

Just as a suggestion, you mentioned armors favoring titles as well as the jobs. Well from my viewpoint of how you mention it this would mean since a favored piece of gear is more beneficial to one job type than another it would create a somewhat confusing conflict between jobs of a similar yet different type. Say for instance there is a piece of armor that favors Marauder but doesn't favor DRK. The effectiveness of that piece of gear would drop if you were using it as such under the current system. What if instead of a "favored item" for titles it just simply gains small extra bonuses while using a particular title as opposed to losing effectiveness when used with a non-favored class. So for example a piece of gear might normally give 50 defense, +20 HP, +2 Str might instead give 60 def, +30 HP, and +4 str instead when used with a favored title. Just a suggestion I don't know if its been brought up before but it just makes it so that even if you weren't using a particular title you didn't lose any benefits from the armor.

The system that I wanted to implement, let's say dark knight. its gladiator > dark knight. When leveling my gladiator I also level my dark knight, upon reaching the next tier of dark knight I can choose to put bonus points in whatever option is given to optimize the play style I want. I reaaly feel focusing on my warrior idea isn't really the point I wanted to make, rather it was an idea to further augment base classes using a title that would play differently than drk and pld. You're not evolving the weapon spec, you're augmenting your weapon spec with abilities/spells from the title. There's no need to put a cap on your weapon specilization because titles are interchangable and you level your title with your weapon spec.

Now I 100% agree with you that certain titles should be allowed to carry over their spells to any given equipped weapon spec but, the point of the percentages is to augment a play style that will allow you to play a weapon spec in a idfferent manner using the bonuses given by the title. Its not limiting a spec to a title, its opening up the weapon specs with the title.

Cairdeas and I had a very indepth discussion on what you're talking about right now about a week or two ago and the schematics for what I'm trying to describe are much more well written by him than by me. I hope you'll go back and look for them. And to be honest I feel like we're. Having the same idea, I'm just not explaining myself properly. The reasoning behind my warrior class was to be that jack of all trades title you mentioned. The title is just there so you can make your marauder a better tank, or your gladiator a better DD. I think I shouldn't ha veused warrior as the example though it seems to have worked against me. But without the bonuses given by a title really, that just means your weapon specialization determines your play style with little room for customization that could properly be implemented in most playing situations.

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Originally Posted by Cadaceus

Just as a suggestion, you mentioned armors favoring titles as well as the jobs. Well from my viewpoint of how you mention it this would mean since a favored piece of gear is more beneficial to one job type than another it would create a somewhat confusing conflict between jobs of a similar yet different type. Say for instance there is a piece of armor that favors Marauder but doesn't favor DRK. The effectiveness of that piece of gear would drop if you were using it as such under the current system. What if instead of a "favored item" for titles it just simply gains small extra bonuses while using a particular title as opposed to losing effectiveness when used with a non-favored class. So for example a piece of gear might normally give 50 defense, +20 HP, +2 Str might instead give 60 def, +30 HP, and +4 str instead when used with a favored title. Just a suggestion I don't know if its been brought up before but it just makes it so that even if you weren't using a particular title you didn't lose any benefits from the armor.

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This was indeed brought up and we came to a similar conclusion that really is almost the exact same you gave ^^

I understand better what you mean now, i must have indeed missed some past post or thread...

I will go look up the schematics, but if you went as far as making schemes we should make some sort of poll, wrap them up and try to present a basic idea together with OP's rationale to a mod.

Meanwhile i stand by my first point: if a class is redundant, like MNK, it should be simply eliminated, because MNK is virtually a pugilist with less skills. This is not the case for WAR, which can be given generic bonuses, being a generic title. And even if that was a problem, we should probably present the raw principle and let the devs eventually decide which skills to give to each title.

EDIT: please point me to a specific discussion because Cairdeas has dozens of started threads with a bunch talking about the combat system.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

This was indeed brought up and we came to a similar conclusion that really is almost the exact same you gave ^^

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Lol, good to know that we're on the same page. XD

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Originally Posted by Carpe

The Title/Job system gives you plenty of options, what it doesn't do is let everybody be able to do everything EQUALLY well. That I think was a problem, at least for me, with FFXII, once you filled up the license board there was nothing to differentiate your characters other than the armor/weapon you chose to equip, you could use all the abilities/spells with equal proficiency so imposing a role on a specific character was just a state of mind, not something that was implemented into the system.

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I know this post will be late to the party, however, in XII there were also unchanging stat differences between the characters. No matter how hard you tried to change it, Panelo and/or Ashe made the best healers simply because their stats dictated them as such. Granted everyone could learn everything but Stat points were varied enough to define a character as being better for a specific role within the party.

Just a clarification. :O

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I understand better what you mean now, i must have indeed missed some past post or thread...

I will go look up the schematics, but if you went as far as making schemes we should make some sort of poll, wrap them up and try to present a basic idea together with OP's rationale to a mod.

Meanwhile i stand by my first point: if a class is redundant, like MNK, it should be simply eliminated, because MNK is virtually a pugilist with less skills. This is not the case for WAR, which can be given generic bonuses, being a generic title. And even if that was a problem, we should probably present the raw principle and let the devs eventually decide which skills to give to each title.

EDIT: please point me to a specific discussion because Cairdeas has dozens of started threads with a bunch talking about the combat system.

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Monk is not a Pugilist with less skills. Its a more specialized fighter then that.

Pugilist is just "One who fights with fists."

a Monk is a spirtual fighter who uses their mind and their vit more then their brute strength to deal damage. They get bonuses for having higher vit then strength as well as bonuses for not wearing heavy armor over wearing lighter faster armor.

Also Monks are not religated to fighting with just their fists like the weapon class Pugilist is. They also have

Fist, Foot, Nunchacku, Spiritual Abilities, some incarnations (White Monk) have healing powers based in White Magic but powered by Vit, Bo-staffs, Clubs, and many other weapons.

Right now yes. Monk would be limited to Pugilist if you wanted the biggest bang for your buck and to be depicting the visual presence of that job. But Monk is a Pugilist while a Pugilist is not a Monk. Enforcer which is a known coming soon Weapon class dealing with clubs/twohand blunt weapons possibly would also be a great choice for Monk, though a Monk Conjurer would be akin to a White Monk from FFTA without having to implement White Monk directly at first.

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

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Actually. Having the Monk Job title unlock Kicks and kick combat maneuvers over fist maneuvers would be how you'd implement Kicking, instead of unlocking them for pug, let monk be the catalyst for the kicks.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

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I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

Amazing and completely necessary thread. Bringing back traditional classes and styles would be the way to go, no matter how its handled. Applause to thread maker. =P

So when a pugilist becomes a monk, he finally realizes that he can use his legs in battle too? :p

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

So when a pugilist becomes a monk, he finally realizes that he can use his legs in battle too? :p

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Lol, yeah funny how that works out. So kirith did I clear it up?

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

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Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

Hi. I do not currently play Final Fantasy XIV, but I played in the beta. I really like your ideas for a two-tier class system, and I hope that the developers take them into consideration as they continue working on the game.

I was one of the players who was turned off by the class restructuring and renaming, partially because that made the game less connected to previous Final Fantasy titles, but also partially because the class descriptions made it non-intuitive what the roles of each class were supposed to be (though it seems that roles are kind of muddy right now anyways).

There's a lot that needs to change from the Beta before I would consider buying and subscribing to XIV, but this would absolutely be a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

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But how could you keep open customization without being locked into any particular weapon specialization without using the stat bonus system? The reason I reccomended the stat bonus system was not only to encourage unlocking the advanced jobs, but to actually make them better than weapon specializations.

And to be honest it wouldn't be redundant, let's say the spec tree or grid for monk was DD, healing, and tanking (just for an example don't take it at what I really want) you couldn't just equip pugilist and excel at all three, you could put conj as a sub or gladiator as a sub. And honestly titles would have their own weapons or be able to use weapons regardless of weapon spec right? Or maybe have that be one of thbe tier unlocks. The ability to use your titles weapon on any class equipped after tier 2 or 3.

Lol, I really just want you to see the benefits of the stat bonus system. Its about leveling up your title, people won't feel they've actually leveled a job unless they see a dmg increase, or something like that.

I'd really like to know carpe's thoughts on the stat bonus when leveling to the next tier as part of a grid system that let's you choose your bonuses.

Nah that wont work Ana, The classes as they are are dedicated to the Weapon itself. They are Weapon Classes in the Disciplines which are part of the Armoury System.

Alright I went back and read the main post, and really the only problem I see is that, let's say I want to be an enfeebling drk I would use thau as my weapon...but its a staff...now we're losing class identity. Really the best solution to this is to make tier upgrade unlocks that give you a title specific weapon. Drk=scythe. Now, I didn't say that drk would be completely Limited to scythe but just be able to use it on a different weapoln spec that doesn't necessarily favor it. Thus the penalty system suggested in OP would apply to the scythe because of the thau weapon spec but you could still equip the scythe because you are a dark knight focusing in enfeebling. I'm sorry but I just can't get behind something that has a dark knight equipping a wand and using spirit dart when all your passive traits and abilities will be focused on melee...doesn't seem right to me lol, but maybe that's the sacrifice drk players will have to make to see a system as great as this implemented.

I hope I made myself clear on that one. Now, the other point I wanted to bring up is that there are indeed some weak points when considering monk and a title to benefit those who are content to stay gladiator/marauder. We could get rid of stat bonuses sure, but what does that really fix? Not a whole lot, the stat bonuses would've been dependant on the weapon spec equipped not the title, the title would just givee small percentage bonuses to give them that classic feel while still giving you the option to customize a job to be "out of the box". The problem inherently is that people will tend to think of the base classes now as classes and not weapon specializations.

When you think of pugilist as a h2h specialist and monk as a h2h expert it will seem a bit redundant. But its not, there are many types of swordsmen in the world, but I like to think that fencers and samurai are different. Why not do the same for monk? There are lots of different types of martial arts, monk might be more muay thai than karate in this sense.

I had some time to think of how to make Advanced Jobs seem a bit more important than just stat bonuses. I was thinking that Jobs and Weapon Specialization could tie in a lot better too.

My idea is this:

Say you are a Pugilist. Your Pugilist Skill Affinity is already at 100%. You unlock the Monk Job and have that as your current job. Monk provides Pugilist Affinity +25%. Now all of your skills you use as a Pugilist will be boosted by 125% total.

I know that some guild marks in other classes can be spent to improve affinity as well. +10%
However, the cap on affinity should be removed, and placed at 250% or maybe even just 200%.

The way this ties into encouraging having a specific weapon per job is that if you were a Monk that had a Lance equipped. Your Pugilist Affinity will only be at 75%, and your Lance at 100%.

Jobs should also have a decrease in affinity due to this. Equipping a Lance doesn't affect the affinity at all, but it does keep at 100%, which is still higher than hand-to-hand skills. I say that Monk should be Favorable to Pugilist Affinity and decrease 25% affinity with any other weapon specializations.

So...

MONK
Hand-to-Hand
Favors: PUG + 50%

WARRIOR
Sword, Great Sword, Axe, Great Axe, Scythe, Spear, Shield
Favors: GLA + 50%, LNC + 25%, SEN + 50%, PUG + 25%

THIEF
Sword, (Daggers), Hand-to-Hand
Favors: GLA + 25%, (Daggers) + 50%, PUG + 25%

BLACK MAGE
Staves, Wands, Shield
Favors: CON + 50%, THM + 25%, SEN + 25%

WHITE MAGE
Staves, Wands, Shield
Favors: CON + 25%, THM + 50%, SEN + 25%

RED MAGE
Swords, Staves, Wands, Shield
Favors: GLA + 25%, CON + 25%, THM + 25%, SEN + 25%


All other weapon specializations stay at an affinity of 50%. Equipped or not. Unless Passive Trait is equipped to add 10% to any of them.

As I said in a differnt thread. Dark Knights are not identified by Scyths. Scyths were only ever in FFXI and never again.

Dark Knights in the past used Swords, Shields, Staffs, Clubs, Great Swords, Axes, Great Axes, Spears, and Dark Swords. Scyth was an off shoot in XI.

I have a feeling if they Implement Scyths in XIV they should implement them as a type of Lance that has a high Magic Potency compared to other lances. So if you wanted to look like a DRK from XI you'd equip a Scyth Lance and the Dark Knight Job, then wear Evil Armor.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

As I said in a differnt thread. Dark Knights are not identified by Scyths. Scyths were only ever in FFXI and never again.

Dark Knights in the past used Swords, Shields, Staffs, Clubs, Great Swords, Axes, Great Axes, Spears, and Dark Swords. Scyth was an off shoot in XI.

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It was just an example. And in past ff titles besides ff:t dark knights were identified by blood/dark swords.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

As I said in a differnt thread. Dark Knights are not identified by Scyths. Scyths were only ever in FFXI and never again.

Dark Knights in the past used Swords, Shields, Staffs, Clubs, Great Swords, Axes, Great Axes, Spears, and Dark Swords. Scyth was an off shoot in XI.

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I still see scythe as being a common weapon in an MMORPG, not sure myself if they plan to re-use it, but I'm not going to assume that they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

I still see scythe as being a common weapon in an MMORPG, not sure myself if they plan to re-use it, but I'm not going to assume that they aren't.

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Uh... FFXI is the only game off the top of my head that had Scyths as a dedicated Weapon category. Most of the time they are one shots from Axe, Spear, or other long handled weapon.