Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Almost like some kind of... In-game parser!

*hides from angry antiparser people*

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LIEK OH EM GEE you should know better! You spoke of the FORBIDDEN (myyyy....PREEEECIOUS....) TABOO!

PUNISHMENT ENACTED!

*throws bananas at Moro*

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would definitely recommend joining The Balance Discord (LINK if you're interested; don't think it's against any rules to link it here, but if so, I apologize). Very helpful and renown Discord that is full of veterans and theorycrafters willing to help people with job optimization. They have a forum as well, I believe. I have never posted there, though. Just the Discord.

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thanks for pointing me there. I'll be in under my character name.

Playing poorly is not acceptable. The reason you think it is acceptable is because not many people are complaining about it in game.

We are not allowed to discuss dps numbers (ACT is not allowed to be used that way) so you can't tell people that they are doing low dps. Not using proper rotation, buffs or AoE, all that can be noticed without the need of ACT. So you can give people advice on how to get better.

When people receive an advice, most of them act like victims. Respond back rudely or ignore you. It can be that the advice was not delivered properly or the person receiving it is just too sensitive. Either way, many people just stopped bothering with it.

Words like "pro parse", "elitist", "toxic" gets thrown easily at anyone giving advice. It is not worth getting called bad names because you gave an advice in a brain dead content.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

When people receive an advice, most of them act like victims. Respond back rudely or ignore you. It can be that the advice was not delivered properly or the person receiving it is just too sensitive.

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i think a big part of the problem is that we can't use /tell inside a dungeon. regardless how polite you try to formulate, you are calling that person out for bad play in front of other people / shaming them in public.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Almost like some kind of... In-game parser!

*hides from angry antiparser people*

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I'm not sure how this would help someone who is only hitting one button while doing any role. Someone who smashes the most TP expensive button over and over again because they think that means more damage isn't going to be the type that uses a parser and looks to optimize. It also wouldn't really help a cruddy tank or a poor healer.

so while I understand what you're implying, understand this is more about establishing a baseline , not min/maxing. Which parsers wouldn't particularly help or encourage any behavior.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Playing poorly is acceptable in specific content. That's because the stage before getting good is being bad and possibly not knowing it. Improving performance entails first being at a lower level of performance, then realizing it, and later being at a higher level of performance. Depending on the game content it should be expected to run into the players who have not yet improved or realized the need to.

This content is usually leveling content, but since the jump potions were introduced the game has "started" from level 60 for some people. If you expect everyone in Sirensong (or lower content) always to have a grasp of the game when it is possible someone totally new to gaming could be in your party, well it's just unrealistic expectations. However the later leveling dungeons and Shinryu are pretty good at training players so it's very rare to encounter totally hopeless players in max level content. But if it happens to you and it bothers you, then all you can do is be a good example and guide people to ensure they realize their need and areas to improve. Sometimes guidance involves kicking those with bad attitude.

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I agree that we should be fine with people still learning their class/job in the lower dungeons but I disagree with the point about jump potions. Honestly if you need to level up your job with such a potion and then jump into group content..well I will hold you to the same level as someone that started from the beginning. It was their decision to jump upwards and it should not hold the others in the group back. Those that jump should learn their job before they go into such content and honestly I wished that they would have introduced an forced tutorial for such people. I am fine if they dont really know all the mechanics right now but I will not be fine with someone having no idea for their job in lvl 60 content and upwards. Its on them to have at least a basic understanding.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

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What kind of argument is that? Since when can someone that young even play games like FF14? Also imo its important to even teach kids at a young age that they need to play games with the rules otherwise you might turn them into those that dont care about rules at all and cry all the time if they cant win their way; so no letting children just play those games like they want to will probably lead to just teaching them things wrong..still I dont understand how that makes sense in relation to FF14? You need to be a certain age to play this without an adult at your side. And I kinda dont see how teenagers should be free from having to at least understand the basics..

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Originally Posted by Awha

For some (which is silly, when it comes to playing with other strangers. Though this goes into a deeper issue of respect for fellow players.) the baseline standard is tank should tank, a healer should heal, and a dps should dps. That is the baseline standard, anything beyond that is a expectation placed by the players not the game. Duty finder is random, the experience will suffer from massive variance swings, and trying to place individual player expectations on random players also suffers from such variance swings.

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But for example the training halls for newer players do say that healers should DPS when they got free time, so doesnt the game itself just want more than just healing? Or all the DPS checks in dungeons. If you only need to DPS no matter what then why do we have so many DPS checks? And lets not forget that those bad players will just be carried through such a check by a very good player that has to play the best to even go through this..If you have two bad DD you will not manage to beat this so no just simply doing any kind of DPS is not the standard. (And lets not forget the vault, a great wake up call for healers. ;))

And the problem is not only dungeons where you will often be able to carry such a person..no you will have those join kill and farm groups for recent primals too. And even though we dont have a great tool ingame we still have stone, sky and sea that kinda hints at the amount of DPS needed. So if someone joins this that cant get it at least down to <10% on that puppet wouldnt that mean that they cant fulfill the basics of this fight and should not join it?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

snip/ job jump potions

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I agree with your points raised in regards to the jump potion. This is just an opinion of mine but I believe job/class jump potions are meant for players who already have an understanding of the game with their previous class let's say they got to 60/70 as a melee dps and instead of like leveling another melee dps from lvl 1 to 60 it would certainly take quite some time in order to do so but at least they have a rough idea of how melee dps functions although still have different mechanics from job to job basis which can be adapted in time.

The problem seems to be apparently are new players trying to head straight to storm blood/end game contents by boosting or people simply boosting a role that they are not familiar with for whatever reason it may be.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Snip . . .

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I have never done healer hall, but do they say should or could? I agree a healer should DPS, and a tank should pull as much as he and the group can handle. Even semi afk players should be able to handle more then one group at a time. I mean most dungeons are trivial if people pull one group at a time.

Though I will be honest, our group has yet to clear current savage we need a lot more practice since we play with players that have certain limitations that is neither here nor there. Though so far we have been able to carry our friends through content despite them pretty much only using one or two skill since they like how they look.

Though I have seen videos of clears of two solid DPS pushing through the DPS check, doesn't that go to show that the dps checks are more or less a joke? Though if healers hall does say they should dps I prob will start trying to kick healers that sit around do nothing when not healing, normally I just leave the group if I do not want to deal with it. Never kicked a healer for that since I thought that would be a harassment, though if the healers hall say they should then rip for those healers that sit around and do nothing.

Speaking of hall, why do they not have a higher level version, that requires certain adjustments holding aggro on multiple mobs and requires dps to use aoe or something. idk

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Because they think its a game, and you think its a job.

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That's honestly ridiculous. Hobbies and past times are generally things people do to better themselves.

If my hobby was cooking and I gave a hundred people food poisoning would it be an adequate defence to say well its just a past time not an actual job ya know...

No way. I tinker with cars and electrics. If someone came to me to fix there car and had an accident would it be acceptable for me to say well just a past time it's not a career I don't need to be good at it. I'd likely get arrested for neglect

Football's just a game does that mean players don't have to try that goalie can sit in goal with a pint and completely ignore the ball. Just a game after all who cares. Rest of the team would probably give you a bit of a beating. Or kick you off entirely.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

snip.

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I think an in-game parser could help all but the single-button smasher right off the bat. Parsers aren't all about outgoing damage, ACT specifically has tabs for incoming damage, healing and threat to name just a few. If you can show a healer 'this is how much you healed, this is how much healing is generally required to clear this content' or a tank 'this is your threat generation, this is the threat generation of the dps that tanked most of the adds' that could most certainly help people understand their roles.

It's also concrete data to back up suggestions an experienced player gives in dungeons that the 'offending' player can see on their own screen to show them these suggestions aren't entirely without merit.

Parsers are invaluable for minmaxing, sure, but they're handy for everything actually.

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Originally Posted by Miste

LIEK OH EM GEE you should know better! You spoke of the FORBIDDEN (myyyy....PREEEECIOUS....) TABOO!

PUNISHMENT ENACTED!

*throws bananas at Moro*

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I'll happily let people huck several bananas at me if it solves this issue xD

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Originally Posted by Xeon

Stupidest thread ever. People should be able to play how they want to. There are players of every skill level. There are too many people like yourself that ridicule others because they don't or aren't capable of playing to your competitive level.

Are you good at everything? Have you ever not played / done anything where you weren't good at but still did so anyway because it was enjoyable? And how would it make you feel if you did your best but it just wasn't good enough? Quit being so competitive and just play the game already.

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Remember people, always be sure to read the thread before replying or you look like this jackass.

Didnt SE cut skills and streamline rotations to prevent, poor DPS?

There have been countless times where I will be in a simple duty roulette expert and the dps will be so bad you think its just me and the healer fighting. But as long as everyone is having fun in the same dungeon that we have ran for the 50+ times its ok for DPS to be bad.

SE cannot scale common content to account for terrible players. If they did then everything would be brain dead easy and boring.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Didnt SE cut skills and streamline rotations to prevent, poor DPS?

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I think it was more to be able to add new abilities in SB and have controller users not run out of space. They only have what? 32 slots?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Are...you trying to insinuate that everyone who plays poorly must be doing so because they are young?

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^ sigh, is it possible to have an discussion on the forum without assuming that someone who disagrees is at the extreme opposite position?
Sarcasm: Are you saying we should treat all poor performers like lazy adult vets?!?!!

All I am saying, is that before you hold someone accountable for "lazy play", make sure you have evidence that they are actually engaging in lazy play. For example, you had mentioned that one of the datapoints you distinguish between laziness and sincere effort is level. The value of "level" is not a value that can be used to determine this whatsoever, so it isn't fair to use that data-point when making this determination.

If you have no evidence, you are just guessing. You agreed earlier that we should be tolerant of people who are poor solely due to lack of knowledge. However, "your feeling about them" is a poor standard to be used to distinguish between the two because you cant realistically know when you've crossed the line. And if you can't tell whether or not you've crossed the line, how do you hold yourself accountable?

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I think it was more to be able to add new abilities in SB and have controller users not run out of space. They only have what? 32 slots?

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We have immediate access to 32 slots without having to use a 3rd hotbar, more if you use the WXHB (which I hate) and another 6 16 slot hotbars to use after that. :P

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I think it was more to be able to add new abilities in SB and have controller users not run out of space. They only have what? 32 slots?

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Well technicaly you have 32+32 of R2+L2 (as set 3) + if u want to use R1+circle thats another 32 if u dont use WXHB.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I think it was more to be able to add new abilities in SB and have controller users not run out of space. They only have what? 32 slots?

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Yea controller users dont have any hotbar space issues. And if they wanted to they would have gone the pvp route with certain combos to be placed in 1 button taking only 1 hotbar space. So I dont think space was a real issue. PS users barely use 2 hotbars for skills, I use 3 and that is because the 3rd one is for macros and emotes.

I think they tried to solve a problem they couldnt solve. Unless other people have noticed an increase in the quality of players.

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Originally Posted by Akor

Well technicaly you have 32+32 of R2+L2 (as set 3) + if u want to use R1+circle thats another 32 if u dont use WXHB.

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If we get into swapping hotbars, that is 128 slots.

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Originally Posted by winsock

And if you can't tell whether or not you've crossed the line, how do you hold yourself accountable?

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I understand this is directed at HyoMin but I can't not answer such a loaded, rhetorical question.

First off with effort being a measure of laziness (or lack thereof) I make sure to always put in the amount of effort I'd require of a party member or more. I try my best with every dungeon.

In terms of measuring this in others all you need is basic human interaction. The timeline looks something like this...

See a player performing exceedingly poorly.
Make suggestions as to how they can improve.
Gague their reaction to said advice.

Did they acknowledge that advice in chat? Did they start to apply that advice to their playing? If so awesome, problem solved. If not I assume they don't have interest in improving.

I don't see why this is such a hard thing to understand.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

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Don't care if the kid is 3 or 12 or 10. What matter is the kid shouldn't even play a MMO at those ages or between. So the arguement is silly as it sounds like.

Such threads was not uncommon to see in wow or mmo with toxic players, where exists people that want game to be played by their rules. answer is simple as usual don't pug with randoms . find friends that play style suits you and forget randoms. but if players pugs and complains about randoms it's bit weird.
From my opinion if i'm with randoms i can expect everything from afk to trolling, kick, fail in sastasha 20 times etc. if it's goes beyond my limits i will leave party and that's all. it's not a job for me but to have fun.
why i said toxic players because they are playing not to fun have but in always rush, thinks that everyone in random party cares about their dps/heal/tank numbers. they create own rules in random pt and complains when nobody follows. just think for moment - play style and things to achieve in game are different. if you complaint don't pug with randoms and create misery for everyone.

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Originally Posted by SharpT

Such threads was not uncommon to see in wow or mmo with toxic players, where exists people that want game to be played by their rules. answer is simple as usual don't pug with randoms . find friends that play style suits you and forget randoms. but if players pugs and complains about randoms it's bit weird.
From my opinion if i'm with randoms i can expect everything from afk to trolling, kick, fail in sastasha 20 times etc. if it's goes beyond my limits i will leave party and that's all. it's not a job for me but to have fun.
why i said toxic players because they are playing not to fun have but in always rush, thinks that everyone in random party cares about their dps/heal/tank numbers. they create own rules in random pt and complains when nobody follows. just think for moment - play style and things to achieve in game are different. if you complaint don't pug with randoms and create misery for everyone.

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Or people could put in just a teeny bit of effort? Mayhaps have some respect for the other people they have been matched with and actually try? Even if it's "just a game". Your argument for people to party up with people that match their playstyle/expectations can apply to everyone--bad players included. What about the "misery" Ice Mages cause random Expert groups? The "misery" a MCH in 330/340 causes for a ShinEx farm when they enjoy talking down and ridiculing a fellow DPS in 320 gear for dying to a healer's mistake, who is pulling double the damage the loudmouth MCH is?

I'm not sorry for kicking a tank in Rabanastre who insists on being MT in i310 gear and refuses to use cooldowns for the tankbusters...and who then complains when the healers can't save them from taking a crap ton of unmitigated damage. (And this is a true story: a PLD who would not use cooldowns for tankbusters, died every time, and outright refused to CD when myself and the other healer in our Alliance asked them repeatedly to. And I mean they actually said "No".) I'm not sorry for kicking a full 340, melded NIN from Rabanastre because he died ten times between the first two bosses alone. I'm not sorry for kicking a tank in a V4S group that can't hold hate on Neo while in Defiance the entire time. I'm not sorry for kicking people that refuse to cooperate and respect other members of the group they are paired with.

Mistakes are acceptable in certain instances. But once you get into endgame, and you start advertising that you know what you're doing, you have better prove it.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

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So, I was with you until this part. (bolded for emphasis) You are basically making the assumption that we should tolerate poor performance in a group setting because they COULD be a young kid/child.

You are using a extremely far-reaching hypothetical to defend poor play and unless the person in question comes out and states that they are indeed a young kid/child (which never happens, at most they would just admit that they are new and/or inexperienced) you are never going to know the reason why they are playing poorly, because most people that stick to DF won't even acknowledge that there is a problem, let alone to admitting they are playing poorly.

Hypotheticals are never a good reason to give people that play poorly a excuse for doing so.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Didnt SE cut skills and streamline rotations to prevent, poor DPS?

There have been countless times where I will be in a simple duty roulette expert and the dps will be so bad you think its just me and the healer fighting. But as long as everyone is having fun in the same dungeon that we have ran for the 50+ times its ok for DPS to be bad.

SE cannot scale common content to account for terrible players. If they did then everything would be brain dead easy and boring.

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The reason they cut down on our abilities was to help controller players with space more easily. It can't improve a player's dps to lower the amount of abilities unless you make abilities combo off of itself (Setting Butcher's Block Combo to one button like pvp, for example.) Obviously though, that'd start to make the game play itself. That'd only hurt. I don't want the game to reach that point.

Also I'm a bit surprised this is still going. Thanks for the replies, whether for or against. I only posted this to begin with to cool off my steam, and I chose for now to actually avoid some content on my higher levels to let my steam stay cooled off for now.

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Originally Posted by SharpT

. find friends that play style suits you and forget randoms. but if players pugs and complains about randoms it's bit weird.
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And here I thought when people started an MMO they agreed to play with other PEOPLE/PLAYERS, yet they act like they don't. Your argument is invalid. I would understand if this was a solo game, but sorry to say it's not.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Gague their reaction to said advice.

Did they acknowledge that advice in chat? Did they start to apply that advice to their playing? If so awesome, problem solved. If not I assume they don't have interest in improving.

I don't see why this is such a hard thing to understand.

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You don't see it, because you don't realize that have switched topics altogether.

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

For example, say a DPS refuses to AoE DPS despite the a request from the party. When the DPS is kicked, they are kicked because they are unwilling to work with the party. It's not really a performance issue.

For the sake of being thorough, let's say a DPS accepts the request to AoE. You said if they do take the advice, it's "awesome, problem solved"; however let's refocus this on performance, what if despite accepting the advice they are performing poorly? For example, maybe it's a BLM and their AoE rotation is incorrect. You give them advice telling them what the rotation is, but they are screwing it up for one reason or another, maybe just lack of practice. What do you do?

I'd just endure because I don't have any sort of authority that grants me the ability to make demands. Appeals, yes. demands, not so much.

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Originally Posted by winsock

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

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Actually, my vent was on both. People who have extremely poor performance, levels of which a game should not ever allow without others carrying, AND not taking any advice, either ignoring it entirely, or attacking the person giving advice like it was of the greatest insult.

As for the BLM example you have, I'd rather a freeze BLM aoe spam over no aoe spam. Freeze on 7 targets is probably doing more than Blizzard 1.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You don't see it, because you don't realize that have switched topics altogether.

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

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You're the one who has veered the thread in this direction by questioning HyoMin on how she can measure the effort of a given player because in her (and many other people's) opinion poor play stemming from laziness/being unwilling to learn is many times worse than poor play stemming from inexperience/innocent mistakes.

I have suggested that players who's issues stem from inexperience but are willing to lean aren't lazy, they think they're putting in the same effort everyone else is. These players, when confronted with a way to improve, tend to respond favorably or at least give it a try.

Players who are lazy (so, the ones I would say I don't have time or sympathy for) don't respond favorably to cretique because in general they know what they're doing is enough to not die more often than not and that's enough for them.

You (winsock) are literally the one to bring us to this series of questions. You want to know what kind of poor play is deemed unacceptable by many participants in this thread, I've told you. You want to know how such play can ve separared from simple new players still learning, I've told you.

Now on the PUG issue my only comment is that PUGs are for everyone and if that means you get kicked because you're a no AoE BLM or a no DPS healer or a tank who doesn't mitigate... too bad? Just like you guys can tell us to join PF if we want competent party members I challenge you to open PFs for sub-par runs.

Sure, if you actually get a bunch of bottom of the barrel players you likely won't clear anything. That's why queuing in DF is great for poor players. They might get someone like Sebazy as their cohealer for a trial and literally not have to do anything at all. The issue here is that while 'elitists' (lol, I can't believe I'm starting to actually identify with that term) can form groups for likeminded individuals and clear content that way if we did so exclusively there would be no one in the DF pool to carry the very poor players through their MSQ roadblocks like Nidhogg and Shinryu.

This thread is a rant thread and ranting is healthy sometimes. If people want to complain a bit because they feel overextended trying to cover up for bads... Okay? What's the problem?

To answer the direct question at the end of your post if I found myself in that situation I would apologize for giving unclear advice and clarify what I meant. I don't really give that sort of advice, I don't just throw out vague skill names and hope it gets the point across, but this isn't really related to the topic at hand so I digress.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This thread is a rant thread and ranting is healthy sometimes.

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My ranting here honestly did help me feel less like an exploding orange and more calmed. Yes, ranting can be be better for health than just bottling it in until it explodes. Part of my posting this was to try and make sure I didn't explode on the next person to fit the extreme requirement. Let some steam out before I made a huge mistake and lose my account over it, you know?

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

And here I thought when people started an MMO they agreed to play with other PEOPLE/PLAYERS, yet they act like they don't. Your argument is invalid. I would understand if this was a solo game, but sorry to say it's not.

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Unless you are soloing, you are playing with others.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

And here I thought when people started an MMO they agreed to play with other PEOPLE/PLAYERS, yet they act like they don't. Your argument is invalid. I would understand if this was a solo game, but sorry to say it's not.

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This is the root of the problem. So many people who disparage DPS meters, judging player performance, or people even reaching a bottom line absolutely love to bloody preach about how they care so much about other people. "Don't criticize other people, they did no wrong for playing the way they did!" "Don't kick people despite them holding the entire party back, you're ruining the fun!" "People should be able to play as they want, without anyone ever telling them otherwise!" "You'll make this game into a job!" Like it isn't a damn job carrying people.

There is no I in team, but they focus so heavily on the individual instead of the party, in a game based around parties. Screw the other 3 or 7 people, your PERSONAL experience matters to them.

Bunch of bloody hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Unless you are soloing, you are playing with others.

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https://i.imgur.com/2hUpcfC.jpg

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

https://i.imgur.com/2hUpcfC.jpg

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You were commenting on someone saying not to pug. You can play with others and be social and still not pug.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

You were commenting on someone saying not to pug. You can play with others and be social and still not pug.

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Well........... again read what I said. Like, what about trying to play as a team mate in every group you are in pug or not? When I play with strangers or not, I always try my best. Hitting blizzard and thunder then fire every rotation isn't trying bro, it's flat out leeching and unfair. Yeah sure they can have ''fun'' but damn, I bet peoples hobbies are to lose or be bad at it I guess, asuming how many people defend that type of play.

These types of discussions are funny when you think about it. Its not like people of either opposing opinion are going to change their minds about the subject, yet the pages keep increasing.
You run into lots of people of various skill levels when puging. I don't think I've ever had a person so bad that we couldn't finish a DF roulette outside of 24man raids, in which case it was many people. I sense a lot of exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I sense a lot of exaggeration.

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Put a group of 8 people from the weekly late 24 man raids and put them into v1s. Guess how far they get and how high the % is of the enrage.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

These types of discussions are funny when you think about it. Its not like people of either opposing opinion are going to change their minds about the subject, yet the pages keep increasing.
You run into lots of people of various skill levels when puging. I don't think I've ever had a person so bad that we couldn't finish a DF roulette outside of 24man raids, in which case it was many people. I sense a lot of exaggeration.

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I mostly posted this to vent. I honestly expect 0 change to come. Although I'm glad to see discussion on it at least.

Also, my extremes didn't always mean you couldn't clear it. My Snowcloak example we actually did kill the last boss, despite all 3 having huge issues that they couldn't handle. It was a very close cut though with multiple wipes and me having to go full try-hard on it. It's not common, not in the least, this vent was just over the times I've been getting it.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I think an in-game parser could help all but the single-button smasher right off the bat. Parsers aren't all about outgoing damage, ACT specifically has tabs for incoming damage, healing and threat to name just a few. If you can show a healer 'this is how much you healed, this is how much healing is generally required to clear this content' or a tank 'this is your threat generation, this is the threat generation of the dps that tanked most of the adds' that could most certainly help people understand their roles.

It's also concrete data to back up suggestions an experienced player gives in dungeons that the 'offending' player can see on their own screen to show them these suggestions aren't entirely without merit.

Parsers are invaluable for minmaxing, sure, but they're handy for everything actually.

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The single button smasher IS the cruddy tank or healer though, the button just changes to the AOE heal or the flashiest Tank skill instead of the big numbered one for DPS. This is OP's concern. Someone who thinks this is how you play (SMASH DAT BUTTON!!) and anyone who suggests different is elitist or playing the game like a job.
These people aren't going to calmly sit there while you push numbers at them. They're going to yell "YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB" and then report YOU for harassment. They've never read a log, they have NO idea what their DPS or HPS or Threat generation looks like and wouldn't respond to those values even if presented with them.
I don't deny parsers are a valuable tool, but in this case, as in the people the OP is referring to, they are not helpful (and partially I don't think this thread will benefit from the pro/anti parser discussion that always comes out of that) for the type of player who learned incorrectly or refuses to take advice. I'm purposely going to avoid any discussion on the pro/cons and just say in this case it would not benefit anyone to bring it into this interaction.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Actually, my vent was on both. People who have extremely poor performance, levels of which a game should not ever allow without others carrying, AND not taking any advice, either ignoring it entirely, or attacking the person giving advice like it was of the greatest insult.

As for the BLM example you have, I'd rather a freeze BLM aoe spam over no aoe spam. Freeze on 7 targets is probably doing more than Blizzard 1.

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I got to say, maybe i misinterpreted the purpose of your thread. Could you clarify something for me?

In your op, you say:
"I'm talking about the BLM that spams Thunder."
"The WAR that presses only Butcher's Block"

Why do you feel a BLM spamming Freeze is okay, especially considering the two examples above are not? Personally, if I am a grouped with a BLM that spams freeze and/or thunder, I would make an attempt at guiding them into a proper rotation.