I do not have a "Main" I want to gear all jobs, change weekly gatings?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I specified Savage because you wrote it there. And your assertion is as much a half-truth now as then.

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Uh, no I didn't. In fact, you weren't replying to me when I snagged that quote. Your post was in response to Felis, and I merely asserted your sentiment is objectively wrong. You can do everything on one character. They simply won't be geared equally. You're moving the goal post now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Behind after a certain point into the tier the community WILL come to leave you unless you focus your gear into a specific gear type. Yes, you can raid as whatever you like when gear is barely raised from the uncapped tome's level of gear. But that gap will increase, and item levels will become unreachable without dedicating a higher and higher cumulative portion of gear to a single gear type.

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They will do that regardless. If the ilvl moves to 330, PF will inevitably be set slightly higher by a portion of the community relative to the difficulty. That last portion is crucial. If Savage remained at its current difficulty level, you'll see far less parties demanding much higher than 320. Furthermore, if you join a static, you aren't going to bouncing around jobs. Very few statics allow their members to play outside their chosen role until they have everything on a consistent farm. That is solely community enforced. I signed up to play a melee DPS. While my group wouldn't have an issue if I switched to Dragoon or Monk one week, they wouldn't like if I suddenly wanted to play Black Mage no matter how geared it was. This isn't a hardcore mindset either. Statics typically prefer recruiting roles. So unless you have someone who is equally willing to switch-- to melee in my case-- you'll be playing the role you committed when you joined.

By the time 320 PFs become more ubiquitous, 4.1 will be close by or already released and everyone then has access to 330 gear. Granted, another option, be it relic armour or some such, would be a welcomed addition.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

24-man raids) This is not a new issue, nor would separate caps extend it if the 24-mans actually provided benefits to everyone in the first place. Consider who among single-job players are going to do 4.1 at all when they offer inferior—not even alternatives but outright ilvl-inferior—loot to what they'd already gained last tier? They'll grab whatever twine/coats they still need and then they're done.

That issue's already come up in plenty of threads since Syrcus Tower, and the leading suggestion's been the same: give it the same ilvl as the latest weekly gear and make it upgradeable (which would affect ilvl growth rates), or make it upgradeable via capped currency in a way that essentially absorbs the difference in cost over ilvl growth (which would not).

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Of course they are. The devs want raiders queuing into Ivalice as much as everyone else. The majority will because they use 4.1 to further gear alt jobs. I have seen world prog raiders in Weeping City and Dun Scaith on multiple occasions. It all depends on how many jobs each person is willing to gear. Were tomestone restrictions removed or split individually between each role, they will already have everything. Using myself as an example, I'll have Samurai and Dragoon done before 4.1 drops and will probably collect drops for my other jobs along the way. Seeing how much I actually need from Savage for Samurai, my tomes will probably be diverted to another job pretty quickly. When Ivalice releases, I'll want the gear drops from it to upgrade. Per your scenario, I will have absolutely no use for anything from Ivalice. My tanks and healers will already have full Creation gear. Why would I care about Ivalice?

They already do this through guaranteed tokens each week, allowing you to upgrade the relevant tomestone gear to its Savage equivalent. At best, people would now only run Ivalice once a week for that upgrade since the gear is worthless. Isn't that precisely where we are now: capping Creation and having "nothing else to do"? The RNG token system is another way the devs keep people running 24-mans. Removing that means less and less people will queue.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which is all the more crucial when you only have the one pool of currency and raid loot to split among all of them. Damn right you're going to prefer what gives you multiple jobs in one. How, how is this possibly a unique or novel concern? That IS XIV in a nutshell. That is gear types. They are not equal to the number of roles except in "AF" weekly cap tiers. I think this has been the case long enough to recognize this fact as less than a Doomsday event. If you believe there are improvements possible to it to bring it more in line with the number of roles, I'm all ears, but this concern is entirely tangential.

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And your proposal is to make it easier for tanks and healers to fully gear their respectively jobs well before Ivalice releases, thus giving them no reason to queue for it. How is this a solution? You subsequently mention relishing the idea, but how do you incentivize content? How do you get the tanks and healers, who no longer have any reason to queue into Ivalice more than once a week, to keep doing it? That is the problem with role currency. Just doing roulettes will guarantee two roles are fully geared in Creation before Ivalice even releases. People aren't going to do it if they aren't getting anything out of it, especially when players aren't very good in this game. The whole reason cracked clusters were added to Leveling Roulette is because SE needs people to continuously spam them so people aren't waiting 30+ minutes.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Is this complicated?
The basic idea is that if you could have a BiS main in 3 weeks before, with 4x the total time spent you could have 4 BiS gear types under what I'm proposing.... Assuming no additional changes, if you overcap by more over a given week than n times your daily roulette bonuses, it will be faster than that basic n multiplier. If not, then then time required would be greater than given by a simple multiplier.

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Evidently, it is. How wouldn't it speed up my main if you guaranteed Savage drops per player each week? That means all eight of you will have gear fall into your inventory. It may not be consistently what you want, however the RNG drastically improves since you'll never go a week without getting something unless you already have it. This makes the aforementioned issues with Ivalice even worse. Fourteen weeks, with two drops per person means raiders have twenty eight chances of 340 gear for various jobs, including their preferred ones. Sure, you'll see plenty of repeats, thus gear hits the floor, but unless RNG utterly hates you, this puts a massive dent on raiders' willingness to run Ivalice or roulettes because they have better gear for even their alts.

Right. Let's unravel that a little bit. Say you main Dark Knight, but also like healers and casters. Under what you proposed, you'll have near full BiS for the following:

Dark Knight, Warrior, Paladin, White Mage, Astro, Scholar, Red Mage, Black Mage, Summoner and still could gear Monk and Samurai. Out of fifteen jobs, you'll potentially have everything you want on eleven of them. And 4.1 wouldn't have even released yet. Please, explain how this wouldn't destroy queue times? Better yet, how do you incentivize Omega Normal and Crafted gear, both of which are inferior due to cost and time efficiency (i.e., it is far more efficient to spam Ala Mhigo and purchase the better Creation gear than run Omega and obtain 320)?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And in the meantime, you actually didn't quit after gearing a single job, waiting until post-tier farm groups to bother with alts, you participated in far more raids, and ran far, far more dungeons, while Ivalice gives later-upgradable gear alternatives to your rollover savage gear so that if you're truly fanatical about BiS across all those alts you'll be running that for n pieces of loot per week... Admittedly, perhaps I'm not thinking vividly about the queues yet, but I fail to see how that broad picture has lost anything. What fixes 24-mans for BiS single-job players also fixes it for separately capped alts.

:: My only fear in this would be that the ability to grind out so much gear would inflate gear requirements to a point where casual players would be left behind. But the thing is we're already on the brink of that even when gearing just 1-2 jobs, and that same system punishes spreading that gear around. No other MMO does that. Anywhere else, what you play (and how much thereof) is what you get. What would be so wrong with that being the case for XIV?

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Because the gear was relevant. 260 was an upgrade on a number of jobs since I focused on Dragoon. I stopped even looking at roulettes for months leading up to Stormblood because I had 270 on everything I cared about. I only touched the Void Ark series when friends asked me to. And I only ran it multiple times in one week when the gear was better than what I had. Afterwards? Once and only once, if that. In fact, the only reason I bothered with roulettes again later was when I decided to make another Anima. Your scenario makes the Ivalice equivalent gear obsolete. I would already have 330 Creation or 340 Omega. Therefore, I wouldn't touch Ivalice more than a handful of times just to see what it's like. I also craft, roleplay and do other things. I may have remained subbed but I wasn't spamming content after obtainimg everything I fancied. I am also an outliner in that respective. Not many want to make multiple Animas or farm PotD weapons for giggles.

Unfortunately, I very much suspect that fear would be well founded. If Creation is spammable, that makes it far more likely people restrict PFs to 330, thus forcing player to farm Creation if they want to participate while making crafted and Omega normal drops worthless. We've already been over the impact it would have on Ivalice. So... you asked what I might do for improvements? Honestly, I want to see what Eureka brings. Relic armour has potential as an alternative gear method that wouldn't be too fast but allow people to focus on something throughout the week. There also needs to be more content in general. And less of the faceroll variety. Another possibility is Mythic+. At least as a concept. I wouldn't want it identical to WoW, but I do like the precise of something harder we work towards.

There isn't a piece of content in the game you can't do with full crafted gear and/or lakshmi accessories, and only like two fights you (probably) can't do with full verity.

Just because you can't be 100% overgeared and optimal on every class doesn't mean you are at all hampered from playing what you want if you are good at it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You do realize if they uncapped the highest level tomes for gear, then you would get 10 tomes per dungeon and gear would be double the costright? thats exactly what they did with yellow scrips.

You think you are complaining now about having to do dungeons repeatedly? Just see how much you would hate it then lol

TLDR: if you think the amount of tomes you'd get from roulettes/dungeons would stay the same if they uncapped it, you are oh so very wrong.

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Yellow script problems is because they do not understand crafting/gathering and how to build a healthy economy. This was always a problem since 2.0, and the comments of the specialist system only proves it further. It was stated they made the specialist system so hardcore crafters do not dominate as much. They really need to research better because any hardcore crafter has at least 1 other character, and I discovered a few duel accounts. This causes the hardcore crafters to be a more of an advantage since now it is easier to dominate the market with 2-3 characters vs 1. If someone wanted to, a single person can control the economy completely, and I am just guessing no one does, is because it takes more effort then someone wants to take, vs just spamming different crafts to have a high yield gil anyway. The only reason I do not do it is purely on morel grounds. Basically the system only hurts the midcore crafters, the kind that sorta hard core crafts, but can't put in the effort to level alts, where the casual crafters would unlikely make investments to craft on the equivalent of 70-2 star (as of this posting) or 60-4 star during 3.4.

Also the problem with yellow scripts is not only does it require an insane amount of grind, but melding 290 gear is not only cheaper, faster, but also more optimal as well. There is NO REASON to go for yellow scripts other then to glam. It would be no different then making salavge deltascape rewards 320 (so crafted outperforms it due to melding) [have to ignore the existence of the 330 tome gear, since this is only way to translate what happened to yellows to non-crafters since stats don't work the same.]

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My thoughts on it are still rather up in the air. To be honest, when I start into a large design idea, it rarely tries to achieve just the one thing I originally intended—a bad habit. For instance, what I have so far, something of a "Prestige" system, not only includes categorical allocations to gate the "any given" repository of gear while allowing equitable (not just equal or shared) gating for any other repository, but it also adjusts how gear is rewarded and what all awards progress towards it (e.g. achievements, challenge modes, and with adjustments for various forms of scaling, and so forth to spice up what essentially amounts to tome-grinding, in order to make the increased hours of grinding possible feel less grindy).

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I was hoping for more ideas to work it in my own, ill take a while since I am busy with other things, but we will see.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh, no I didn't. In fact, you weren't replying to me when I snagged that quote. Your post was in response to Felis, and I merely asserted your sentiment is objectively wrong. You can do everything on one character. They simply won't be geared equally. You're moving the goal post now.

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Incorrect, if you are going to run on the premise that you can play all jobs on one character, then they all need equal access. The current system does not allow that, and the easier they make exp gain, the more people this will bother. If you have to make an alt to have equal access, it violates the advertised premise. Also the forumla tends to go, even before you have 330 now in all slots they release a new 450 cap, so it makes you feel you are always behind, you can only gear 1 job, it should not be locking you in 1 job. You keep running on the fear that whatever new system people propose will break the game too much. How is allowing me gear more then one job in current ilevel ruin anything? What if balance changes or changes to the job (currently I dislike blm, the job I used to sink gear in first in HW) so now I am at a standstill hording everything because I do not know what to invest that kind of time gating into. This is not fair to me. Did you ever think salavge statics does not tend to have people change jobs because of the gear time gates? Though I did meet a salavge SAM, having 2-340 gear, leveling nin for his static, because he said they would benefit from NIN more and have 2 or 3 340s for that as well. Their sam also had a 330 weapon.

OHHHHHHHHHH!!! also.. if the premise is making time gates to prevent hard cores having too much more then causal, right now casual is cap at pretty much i320, having maybe 1-4 330 depending what they invest in. The person I met above easily eclipses a "casual" so I find that argument not founded at this point.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldSerenade

As much as it sucks, this has been the best it's ever been. You have a lot of options to gear up right now.

1) Creation tomes. (You don't need every single piece of creation gear. Hell, some pieces are a downgrade for certain classes.)
2) Omega weekly gear.
3) Verity tomes.
4) Trial accessories / Weapons.


As someone who enjoys playing different classes, life's pretty good right now.

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It is the same as HW, direct copy/paste from HW may of been different in 2.0, since I was more a crafter then and really didn't care. Regardless you cannot say "it is the best it has ever been" when it is the same, and objectively worse when updated diadem came out late 2.0. It also lacks the 24 main raid weekly gear as well. So there is 2 less options, 3 if you count lacking deep dungeon equivalent weapons. So right now, you have less options then what we had in HW.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh, no I didn't. In fact, you weren't replying to me when I snagged that quote. Your post was in response to Felis, and I merely asserted your sentiment is objectively wrong. You can do everything on one character. They simply won't be geared equally. You're moving the goal post now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Any roles/jobs/classes/gear types other than your primary... are alts. The term is not solely applied to separate characters. Yet by placing them on one character in this game, each is allotted fewer opportunities. In other words, the game forces you, if you want optimal gearing, to put each gear type on a separate character, despite holding the selling point of all in one.

The issue is you absolutely can't do everything on one character. To have the same freedom as in other MMOs, then like any other MMO, you must place every gear type on a separate character. It's counter-intuitive.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

But you can. Nothing stopped me from queuing into Experts all throughout Creator on Warrior and White Mage. I even brought them into Savage before either was BiS.

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(Here's where I wonder how being merely able to bring a job into some floor of Savage, short of the BiS that Savage is required for, and what Expert roulette has to do with that.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I specified Savage because you wrote it there. And your assertion is as much a half-truth now as then. You do NOT have indefinite access to Savage as an alt (unless running with friends who will accept below average ilvls).

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1. No, I have not moved the goal post. Apparently I've used a different definition of "doing everything". To me that includes reaching BiS in a given tier, and being able to participate in ALL content, regardless of its typical community-driven ilvl requirements. You seem to be using it in a sense of being able to participate to some degree in all forms of content. From the way I was looking at it, you use of the absolute to be blantantly overselling what is possible across alts belonging to the same character, to a point of factual error. I hadn't thought of the term in a softer sense.

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They will do that regardless. If the ilvl moves to 330, PF will inevitably be set slightly higher by a portion of the community relative to the difficulty. That last portion is crucial. If Savage remained at its current difficulty level, you'll see far less parties demanding much higher than 320. Furthermore, if you join a static, you aren't going to bouncing around jobs. Very few statics allow their members to play outside their chosen role until they have everything on a consistent farm. That is solely community enforced. I signed up to play a melee DPS. While my group wouldn't have an issue if I switched to Dragoon or Monk one week, they wouldn't like if I suddenly wanted to play Black Mage no matter how geared it was. This isn't a hardcore mindset either. Statics typically prefer recruiting roles. So unless you have someone who is equally willing to switch-- to melee in my case-- you'll be playing the role you committed when you joined.

By the time 320 PFs become more ubiquitous, 4.1 will be close by or already released and everyone then has access to 330 gear. Granted, another option, be it relic armour or some such, would be a welcomed addition.

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2. The information on static play is irrelevant. Chances are if you're gearing multiple jobs in order to access content (e.g. to increase the possibility of being able to sub for a group), you're not in one, and probably cannot join one—not because you lack the time to raid at all, but because your schedule is inconsistent. Yet your chances go from increased to next to null by doing so as the tier progresses, simply due to the naturally increasing ilvl expectations. Though you can fill more slots, your gear levels are growing slower than anyone else, because there is no reward for the additional time spent, even where it would NOT accelerate vertical progression.

Moreover what does the preference of your static have to do with what you would like to do, likely with any number of other players, given more time and accessibility (such as right now by simply playing two characters)?

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How wouldn't it speed up my main if you guaranteed Savage drops per player each week?

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(?) I have never said to guarantee Savage drops per player each week. Is this an iteration of what I've mentioned that you're extrapolated into this result? Or are you thinking of another poster? I really can't speak on their behalf.

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This makes the aforementioned issues with Ivalice even worse.

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While I can't speak to the supposed rates or guarantees of raid loot acquisition, since what you're assuming to be my idea is either not mine or mis-extrapolated, I did just say that should alts on the same character be given the same degree of gearing freedom as alts on separate characters, catch-up loot semi-tiers ought then to stand as alternatives to the former tier's BiS line-up. Short of that you're also going to continue to run into the issues of single-gear-type players already in BiS having zero use for the 24-man content. Thereby it acts as a catch-up mechanic not just for those who play more than one gear type, but for those with less time. The risk: you now have more choices at a given ilvl. The horror.

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Right. Let's unravel that a little bit. Say you main Dark Knight, but also like healers and casters. Under what you proposed, you'll have near full BiS for the following:

Dark Knight, Warrior, Paladin, White Mage, Astro, Scholar, Red Mage, Black Mage, Summoner and still could gear Monk and Samurai. Out of fifteen jobs, you'll potentially have everything you want on eleven of them. And 4.1 wouldn't have even released yet. Please, explain how this wouldn't destroy queue times? Better yet, how do you incentivize Omega Normal and Crafted gear, both of which are inferior due to cost and time efficiency (i.e., it is far more efficient to spam Ala Mhigo and purchase the better Creation gear than run Omega and obtain 320)?

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Right. Let's "unravel" this:

Yes, four gear types encompasses anywhere from 6 to 11 jobs.... Is there a paradox I'm missing?...
And you can take 4x the time to do that across 4 characters, covering 6 to 11 jobs at full gearing potential... right now. You just can't do it on one character. So why the fear-mongering over the possibility of XIV's one unique convenience no longer being a detriment? That is the only change I'm suggesting. People won't suddenly sprout additional hands and unemployment checks and botting tools by which to grind Creation tomes across every gear type any more than anyone can currently do so by using separate characters (and with the addition of as many daily roulettes bonuses as they have characters, and therefore gear types, whereas the others get it only for the first gear type allotted towards). (Continued below.)

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Because the gear was relevant. 260 was an upgrade on a number of jobs since I focused on Dragoon, Ninja and Dark Knight. I stopped even looking at roulettes for months leading up to Stormblood because I had 270 on everything I cared about. I only touched the Void Ark series when friends asked me to. And I only ran it multiple times in one week when the gear was better than what I had. Afterwards? Once and only once, if that.

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Wait... so you're fighting me on the idea that 24-man loot ought to be worthwhile even for raiders (whereas it is currently a catch up mechanic for altaholics and returnees, generally ignored by BiS raiders) because... why?
Let's review this.

• I said that players should have as much freedom to gear up gear types on one character as across multiple. No more, no less. I've never said anything about guaranteeing drops. I've never said anything about gearing by-job. I believe I have been very clear in this respect.
• I haven't miraculously given players more time to play the game, or thereby pursue those goals on one character than across multiple at this time.
• I haven't suddenly made people any more or less altaholic.
• I've said that for this to work, catch-up loot like that of 24-mans (or by extension normal-mode raids) would have to be a legitimate alternatives, not just a stop-over measure meant to be replaced. That and that alone accelerates gearing across x weeks from the release of a casual raid.

The effects, then, would occur only for those players who would be able to gear up all alts they cared about to BiS over the course of a tier in the present system. Like yourself. They and they alone would now "finish" the tier sooner, since the time spent gearing their alts could be done over a shorter span of time, similarly to if they had done so on separate characters, but with 525 fewer inventory slots per additional gear type placed on the same character. Inversely, they would also have a potential reason, depending on itemization, to do casual raids that would otherwise be beneath them.

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Unfortunately, I very much suspect that fear would be well founded. If Creation is spammable, that makes it far more likely people restrict PFs to 330, thus forcing people to farm Creation if they want to participate while making crafted and Omega normal drops worthless. We've already been over the impact it would have on Ivalice.

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But there has been no change to the rate at which Creation is spammable. No change. None. It's 450 per week (per gear type, but without having to be "per character"). Same as ever. Again, I have never said to remove the cap. This would only be an issue if PFs were already assuming that "hey, maybe someone wants to play on another job they haven't had the opportunity to gear up yet due to weekly caps." But they don't. PFs already assume that the majority of people will be placing that gear on a single dedicated gear type. Not a role, not a job—a gear type, however broadly it may apply. And why shouldn't they? If your time is spent across more than a single receptacle for its rewards, you're wasting time insofar as vertical progression. I am simply asking for the same freedom to waste my time or play what I want to the fullest extent given sufficient time that I can enjoy in any other MMO, across all jobs (gear types) available, even if I decide to use the unique feature of XIV.

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So... you asked what I might do for improvements? Honestly, I want to see what Eureka brings. Relic armour has potential as an alternative gear method that wouldn't be too fast but allow people to focus on something throughout the week. There also needs to be more content in general. And less of the faceroll variety. Another possibility is Mythic+. At least as a concept. I wouldn't want it identical to WoW, but I do like the precise of something harder we work towards.

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Yeah, I'm hoping we'll see something to throw some new ideas into the work with Eureka. Not expecting, but definitely hoping. Relic armor's been an idea that some people here have been able to make attractive to me, and I look forward to seeing its possibilities expounded upon. In fact, I think for a system that embraces the freedom of gearing within one character that I'm hoping for to really click, something like this will probably be necessary. Absolutely agreed that I'd like to see less faceroll reskins given to us as "content". Something akin to Mythic+ I think could be a hugely time-efficient development for the game. Blizzard has had its share of less efficient developments, but they far and way more efficient on average than what we've seen here in Diadem, or the infamous LoV, be it via Mythic+, the Artifact Power system and how it interacts more consistently with their version of FATEs and virtually any content, Warsong Gultch, Arathi Basin, Alterac Valley, Timewalker dungeons... There's a lot of good example work on what can both be exciting when new AND last due to more than just short-term, arbitrary-count needs.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Incorrect, if you are going to run on the premise that you can play all jobs on one character, then they all need equal access.

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This says it all. Apparently since we can have 5 college degrees, we should get paid 5x and have the benefits of everything all in one.
Heck, why bother make 15 jobs and roles. Let's go further. Put all skills under 1 character, no need for jobs or gears.

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

This says it all. Apparently since we can have 5 college degrees, we should get paid 5x and have the benefits of everything all in one.
Heck, why bother make 15 jobs and roles. Let's go further. Put all skills under 1 character, no need for jobs or gears.

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This post is off the point discussion completely, the only thing this explains is you do not want to have a meaningful discussion. We are here to suggest improvements to the game, not bite another poster's head off because you dislike change.

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Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu

This says it all. Apparently since we can have 5 college degrees, we should get paid 5x and have the benefits of everything all in one.
Heck, why bother make 15 jobs and roles. Let's go further. Put all skills under 1 character, no need for jobs or gears.

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Oh boy...

Extending your metaphor, you're not getting paid five times the hourly wages; you're being permitted to work 5 times the hours. Life-metaphor-wise, it's not a very desirable arrangement.
Would you like to work 200 hours per week, sir? There are only 168 in a week, you say, sir? I'm sure you're mistaken, sir.

Our skills ARE all on one character.
Jobs are partitions thereof.
Nor would that directly have anything to do with gear.
Rabbits.

I haven't read through this thread but I do feel like these systems were taken from games that only have one job and applied to ffxiv that supposedly encourages you to have one character but at the same time punishes you for doing so.

On top of that leveling alts is a painful process due to the MSQ

Introducing a better system that fits FFXIV would be better for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

1. No, I have not moved the goal post. Apparently I've used a different definition of "doing everything". To me that includes reaching BiS in a given tier, and being able to participate in ALL content, regardless of its typical community-driven ilvl requirements. You seem to be using it in a sense of being able to participate to some degree in all forms of content. From the way I was looking at it, you use of the absolute to be blantantly overselling what is possible across alts belonging to the same character, to a point of factual error. I hadn't thought of the term in a softer sense.

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I haven't oversold anything. You can do all content on every job. If PFs start restricting beyond your present ilvl level on your preferred job, what prevents you from making your own PF? Does the game encourage focusing on a particular role? Absolutely. The game, however, does not prevent you from playing alt jobs. That is the distinction I wanted to make. Perhaps it could have been made clearer.

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I have never said to guarantee Savage drops per player each week. Is this an iteration of what I've mentioned that you're extrapolated into this result? Or are you thinking of another poster? I really can't speak on their behalf.

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It may have been Princess come to think of it. My apologizes if it were and I fused your stance and hers.

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I did just say that should alts on the same character be given the same degree of gearing freedom as alts on separate characters, casual loot tiers ought then to stand as alternatives to the former tier's BiS line-up. Short of that you're also going to continue to run into the issues of single-gear-type players already in BiS having zero use for the 24-man content. Thereby it acts as a catch-up mechanic not just for those who play more than one gear type, but for those with less time. The risk: you now have more choices at a given ilvl. The horror.

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The average player doesn't have multiple characters for raiding. Yes, you can exploit this loophole, but only a small minority do. For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains. If few people exploit the loophole, whether due to laziness, money or contentment, it's existence is irrelevant. So why would people grind on a single character if they won't level a separate? Accessibility. They don't have to slog through the lengthily MSQ and remind themselves to log into it consistently. You aren't wrong in the sense they could... but they haven't. On the other hand, people were grinding Verity week one.

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I've said that for this to work, catch-up loot like that of 24-mans (or by extension normal-mode raids) would have to be a legitimate alternatives, not just a stop-over measure meant to be replaced. That and that alone accelerates gearing across x weeks from the release of a casual raid.

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How is it an alternative when it's the same ilvl everyone has already been grinding for nearly four months? You acknowledge upwards of eleven jobs could be fully geared before 4.1 releases, yes? They would be ilvl 330, the same ilvl Ivalice will drop. Therefore, it's no longer an alternative because everyone will already have said ilvl. Instead, people only run it for the tomestone upgrade not the loot.

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But there has been no change to the rate at which Creation is spammable. No change. None. It's 450 per week (per gear type, but without having to be "per character"). Same as ever. Again, I have never said to remove the cap. This would only be an issue if PFs were already assuming that "hey, maybe someone wants to play on another job they haven't had the opportunity to gear up yet due to weekly caps." But they don't. PFs already assume that the majority of people will be placing that gear on a single dedicated gear type. Not a role, not a job—a gear type, however broadly it may apply. And why shouldn't they? If your time is spent across more than a single receptacle for its rewards, you're wasting time insofar as vertical progression. I am simply asking for the same freedom to waste my time or play what I want to the fullest extent given sufficient time that I can enjoy in any other MMO, across all jobs (gear types) available, even if I decide to use the unique feature of XIV.

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That makes it spammable, albeit indirectly. Currently, I have to continuously run dungeons if I want Cassandra to have full tomestone gear on multiple jobs. I'll continue to do this well into 4.1 unless I level a separate character. As I haven't and probably won't, at least not for a long while, I'll queue into content consistently enough. With your proposal, I wouldn't since by 4.1, I'll have all the jobs I care about finished. As for PFs. People who set ilvls that high, do so because they want to exclude players. They aren't going to be courtesy and assume you may want to play something else. They'll want you on your main. People who keep it more averaged out or don't set one at all would also take you right now at 315-320. And will continue to do so months later. A12S PFs typically stayed around 260 once 3.5 released, which was easily obtainable for even casual players.

Basically, my perspective on the whole issue is the devs haven't made any adjustments because not enough people have either exploited their restrictions or they don't have an issue with them. Keep in mind, forums make up a very small portion of any game's community. It's baffling just how many people don't even check the lodestone, let alone post on the forums. I'll admit though, there should be some sort of poll or questionnaire given to players who unsub. That might help give the devs ideas if certain systems aren't working.

Regardless, my defense of the system doesn't mean I like it. Frankly, I'm indifferent. I haven't had problems joining PFs or obtaining enough gear on Cassie for it to ever present an issue. That being said, I won't argue it doesn't get repetitive.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snip

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Yep, I read the post you quoted and was like "Eh?" - I mean I can be known for being ridiculous at times... but still.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

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Yeah, I'm not averse to it myself, because I can understand why it would be a problem for some. However I HOPE that if they do do it, they do it in a way that isn't simply "queue as DPS, get DPS tomestones". I sometimes will queue as DPS when I don't fancy the responsibilities of tanking/healing in that particular run, but I would still prefer to gear my tank/healer as I will NOT do Extreme content etc as a DPS.

Don't like weekly restrictions? Make an Alt

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

I haven't read through this thread but I do feel like these systems were taken from games that only have one job and applied to ffxiv that supposedly encourages you to have one character but at the same time punishes you for doing so.

On top of that leveling alts is a painful process due to the MSQ

Introducing a better system that fits FFXIV would be better for everyone.

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Yep that is how I feel. The system is out of place in this game. They said they took a lot of stuff inspired by wow.. but wow makes it easy to level alts, not be MSQ gated, so the one job currency system does not fit in this game like it would in wow.

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Originally Posted by programcanaan

Don't like weekly restrictions? Make an Alt

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Been addressed repeatedly. Remove MSQ gating without buying a potion then and ill be fine.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

-snip-

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We understand you do not like or want change, so can you try to add more meaningful arguments? You are also confusing my stances and what I saw as well, and you done so several times.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains.

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Yeah right, they need to drop off alts for that statistic, and people with 1 job at 70 in general. Ofc people with 1 job at 70 will not have space problems.
I like to see where this was said though, got a cite?

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

This post is off the point discussion completely, the only thing this explains is you do not want to have a meaningful discussion. We are here to suggest improvements to the game, not bite another poster's head off because you dislike change.

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Yet it's the same point you've been repeating through out this thread.
Get a better reason than "I have multiple jobs" to remove the cap and I will consider it.
If that's your only card in order for that to happen, you have to be all 3 roles on the same work (dungeons).
Do you understand that you've been misleading your own thread so far?

Trust me I wish it was easier but for now it is what it is. There are lots of other things I'd like for my alts mounts, minions, etc. It goes on and on.

Right here:
http://i.imgur.com/9cRh5np.png

I hate the time gating to one job, what if i pick wrong? what if I pick MCH/BLM/SMN? im screwed. At the begining I stated I did not like the caps limiting to one job for exactly this reason, and why I can't pick what to invest in as far as my time gated gear.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The average player doesn't have multiple characters for raiding. Yes, you can exploit this loophole, but only a small minority do. For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains. If few people exploit the loophole, whether due to laziness, money or contentment, it's existence is irrelevant. So why would people grind on a single character if they won't level a separate? Accessibility. They don't have to slog through the lengthily MSQ and remind themselves to log into it consistently. You aren't wrong in the sense they could... but they haven't. On the other hand, people were grinding Verity week one.

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Fair enough. Granted that MSQ grants experience across its entirety, enough even to outperform the armory bonus after 61. It's probably the disgust of listening to the shit more than once, and regathering all one's aether currents, etc., more than the actual time spent. Which... doesn't bode well.

I'd likely still have 3 characters going if not for one simple thing: I don't like the other two as much, character-wise, as I used to. I like this one. I want to just play this one. And so there went the ability to fully gear 3 gear sets at once. Which then becomes 6 and eventually all 7 with time over a given tier, before resetting. Now I get the one, which I have to split over the largest roles (MNK/SAM only because I didn't want to play casters or ranged this time, and tanks and healers).

Again, though, even if that accessibility and just the fact that people have at this point been sort of habit-trapped into all-in-one characters by this point would open up massive potential for quick but finite grinding, I still don't think that fear warrants the limitations we face now for having placed all jobs on one character. Maybe there's an ideal balance point. But I'd rather caution towards consistency in concept, cutting out that design hypocrisy, than being consistent to the formula thus far.

Either way this isn't likely to happen with the system currently set in place. Just imagine how clunky that would look, with Creation Tomes of Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Aiming, Fending, Healing, and Casting. It would look horrendous. No, this would have to be design philosophy of something new, that can make it work so people don't feel any more like they have to grind away at tomestones, tombstones, or whatever any more than they do not—hopefully less. They should feel more encouraged and able to play the game how they want and for want of just playing the game. I just really think that when we move towards that system, alt-friendliness shouldn't be limited to multi-character setups.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How is it an alternative when it's the same ilvl everyone has already been grinding for nearly four months? You acknowledge upwards of eleven jobs could be fully geared before 4.1 releases, yes? They would be ilvl 330, the same ilvl Ivalice will drop. Therefore, it's no longer an alternative because everyone will already have said ilvl. Instead, people only run it for the tomestone upgrade not the loot.

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A BiS alternative would have to be 340, competing with the augmented and Savage gear. And ideally, you'd want it to be upgradable with the next introduction of currency to whatever the new weekly cap gear would be. I'm sorry, I totally lost track of where I had gone into which details. That is totally on me. I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should not have assumed that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis. (former typo)

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Currently, I have to continuously run dungeons if I want Cassandra to have full tomestone gear on multiple jobs. I'll continue to do this well into 4.1 unless I level a separate character. As I haven't and probably won't, at least not for a long while, I'll queue into content consistently enough. With your proposal, I wouldn't since by 4.1, I'll have all the jobs I care about finished.

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Yes, to be an alternative, it would have to be a sidegrade for the highest ilvls thus far, and ideally a side-option for beginning the next tier. That means a buff to casual raid gear. That's what I meant by it being an increase to gearing rates, but I totally left out the actual numbers and... all that is important.

(Likewise if you wanted Omega normal to keep being run after its served its purpose as step-stone gear, that gear too would need to be improvable to Creation levels, and/or creation tome farming for alts just a side-effect of grabbing that intermittent gear—i.e. it would have to be a damn good way to get Creation, and it actually probably would deserve guaranteed loot at about the time the cap is removed (often counterintuitively increasing the time it takes to get anything from any turn unless really lucky in one's rolls).

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Basically, my perspective on the whole issue is the devs haven't made any adjustments because not enough people have either exploited their restrictions or they don't have an issue with them. Keep in mind, forums make up a very small portion of any game's community.

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Yeah, that's gotta be it. It just feels immensely hypocritical and counter-intuitive to me. in other words, it hits me right in the trigger button. And I know a lot admittedly small enough group of people to be wholly susceptible to sampling bias of people who have felt the same.

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I'll admit though, there should be some sort of poll or questionnaire given to players who unsub. That might help give the devs ideas if certain systems aren't working.

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I unsubbed a few days back. The rationale options, as far as I can recall, were alike to "I don't enjoy playing anymore," "I don't have anyone to play with," "I don't have the time to play," and a couple other standard-fare ones.

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Regardless, my defense of the system doesn't mean I like it. Frankly, I'm indifferent. I haven't had problems joining PFs or obtaining enough gear on Cassie for it to ever present an issue. That being said, I won't argue it doesn't get repetitive.

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In truth, I'm the same way. For instance, I appreciate gating in that I'm not expected, therefore, to put in as many mindnumbing hours. People often think it holds us back, but all it really does imo is give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers), and reduced the portion of our time spent in preparation for the things we play more for their inherent enjoyment (such as raiding, comparatively speaking, and varying from person to person), all while keeping a larger portion of the population useful to you. Those are all really good things...

It's literally just the inconsistency there that gets me on principle. Its really a fairly separate issue for me, as passionate as I get about it. Ideally, there are a lot of ways I'd like to see small changes have significant effects to the game. I'd like to see a greater sense of consistent planning—something less tiered, more continuous—for progression, for catch-up mechanics, for alt-gearing, for example. But a lot of the fundamentals are more or less fine, apart from the very basic issue of the primary spenders of our game-time (e.g. Expert dungeons) aren't particularly fun in themselves, while we could be having a lot of fun even just meeting the basic everyday efforts of the game—it just feels like the carrot-and-stick is presumed sufficient, which may be symptomatic of the biggest problem I see with general design. 'Virtual' content. And not the best disguised, accessible, or reiterative form at that. I mean, WoW can often give us the exact same instance in a way that feels more exciting across two iterations (challenge levels) than two entirely separate Expert dungeons may feel here.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Well I guess I am not shocked you missed replying to this your reply to the quoted is after I said this, however I have a big issue with the argument of "give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers)"

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I do mean "more" here in solely a comparative, not resultative, sense. It does not account for access to omnicrafters, to money, or to time. But it does at least prevent people from feeling obliged to grind ceaselessly just to be the best they can be before they even step foot in the place. You so obviously can't get out of the learning process by pre-grinding it that you won't try (save insofar as grabbing your tome gear first if it's a spending week). And therefore you don't burn yourself out as badly just setting up for it.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Right here:
http://i.imgur.com/9cRh5np.png

I hate the time gating to one job, what if i pick wrong? what if I pick MCH/BLM/SMN? im screwed. At the begining I stated I did not like the caps limiting to one job for exactly this reason, and why I can't pick what to invest in as far as my time gated gear.

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apologies for not wanting to wade through the rest of the thread for an answer.. but what is that table? party composition rates?

Why is it necessary for you to cap out your gear for you to find out what you like to play? You can get all your classes to an acceptable ilevel to play all content with no restrictions. I really don't get who is restricting you to one job other than yourself. We still have 2 weeks before you have to start spending creation tomes and you NEVER have to turn in your omega drops till you want to.

I am well informed you feel only working towards one MAIN job is not what you want, why are you having such a hard time deciding which one you like?

I don't feel you can pick "wrong" if you're playing the job you like unless your static mates are ... well.. jerks.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In truth, I'm the same way. For instance, I appreciate gating in that I'm not expected, therefore, to put in as many mindnumbing hours. People often think it holds us back, but all it really does imo is give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers), and reduced the portion of our time spent in preparation for the things we play more for their inherent enjoyment (such as raiding, comparatively speaking, and varying from person to person), all while keepinga larger portion of the population useful to you. Those are all really good things...

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Well I guess I am not shocked you missed replying to this your reply to the quoted is after I said this, however I have a big issue with the argument of "ive a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers)"

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Incorrect, if you are going to run on the premise that you can play all jobs on one character, then they all need equal access. The current system does not allow that, and the easier they make exp gain, the more people this will bother. If you have to make an alt to have equal access, it violates the advertised premise. Also the forumla tends to go, even before you have 330 now in all slots they release a new 450 cap, so it makes you feel you are always behind, you can only gear 1 job, it should not be locking you in 1 job. You keep running on the fear that whatever new system people propose will break the game too much. How is allowing me gear more then one job in current ilevel ruin anything? What if balance changes or changes to the job (currently I dislike blm, the job I used to sink gear in first in HW) so now I am at a standstill hording everything because I do not know what to invest that kind of time gating into. This is not fair to me. Did you ever think salavge statics does not tend to have people change jobs because of the gear time gates? Though I did meet a salavge SAM, having 2-340 gear, leveling nin for his static, because he said they would benefit from NIN more and have 2 or 3 340s for that as well. Their sam also had a 330 weapon.

OHHHHHHHHHH!!! also.. if the premise is making time gates to prevent hard cores having too much more then causal, right now casual is cap at pretty much i320, having maybe 1-4 330 depending what they invest in. The person I met above easily eclipses a "casual" so I find that argument not founded at this point.

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Also world first was not even using 330 gear, it is max penta melding the crafted gear. So they max penta meld crafted gear get 340 asap then what? So the reality is you can't keep up with Salavge raiders if you are not one, along being stuck on 1 job while salvage raiders are more flexible with gearing 1 or even 2 jobs where both jobs are better geared then someone single job gearing off any non salvage content. So not only is it not achieving this argument, but it is time gating of someone trying to gear more then one job.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

apologies for not wanting to wade through the rest of the thread for an answer.. but what is that table? party composition rates?

Why is it necessary for you to cap out your gear for you to find out what you like to play? You can get all your classes to an acceptable ilevel to play all content with no restrictions. I really don't get who is restricting you to one job other than yourself. We still have 2 weeks before you have to start spending creation tomes and you NEVER have to turn in your omega drops till you want to.

I am well informed you feel only working towards one MAIN job is not what you want, why are you having such a hard time deciding which one you like?

I don't feel you can pick "wrong" if you're playing the job you like unless your static mates are ... well.. jerks.

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I want max performance with slight OCD issues. I want to make sure I am wanted, and if I understand correctly, healers are more flexible with buying up current MB gear, then penta melding it while vit for the first slot for the right. DPS on the other hand, or tank, needs to mix gear from different sources to avoid the unwanted secondary. Top this off with , "just dump the best on blm and go from there " is no longer something I want to do because I do not like the 12 sec upkeep. With server tics and lag screwing you even more then before, and you can't even meld a few piety to try offset it, very frustrating. I can't even kill the highest ex trial dummy consistently with 310 gear, why would i continue to invest in it with such low performance? My record is like 4 sec left when it should be 20-30 UGH!

I really don't get this thread at all. you can queue for anything up to Omega savage 1 with 310 verity gear. are you saying the only way you can tell if you like a job is being fully geared on 1 of 3 iLvl restricted savage difficulty raids? If you are fully geared on all your classes what do you have left to do?

This totally screams "I want it all and I want it now." because everybody knows they do it on purpose to drag a little more life out of the content between patches. It would be like complaining about the 4.0 relic grind the day after it's released. It's not supposed to be easy because it's still relevant gear.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

Right here:
http://i.imgur.com/9cRh5np.png

I hate the time gating to one job, what if i pick wrong? what if I pick MCH/BLM/SMN? im screwed.

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You are screwed because people who aren't you are clearing content in gear that is lower than what you're asking for (minus the few Genji/Creation pieces that they've managed to obtain)?
You do know that most of those people are using crafted gear, right?

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

I want max performance with slight OCD issues...

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So if I'm reading this correctly, you have a problem because you can't max out all of your characters and you don't want to invest because you don't know which job has the best .. numbers at max gear?
I'm trying to see this from your perspective and I guess being a casual player makes it difficult. Does actual like of character mechanics come into it at all?

And a friendly reminder: they are "savage" encounters as in Rough and Brutal. No "L" . Salvage means recovering destroyed items. I understand what you mean, but it may be something someone would try to use as a counterpoint later and nobody likes that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Fair enough. Granted that MSQ grants experience across its entirety, enough even to outperform the armory bonus after 61. It's probably the disgust of listening to the shit more than once, and regathering all one's aether currents, etc., more than the actual time spent. Which... doesn't bode well.

I'd likely still have 3 characters going if not for one simple thing: I don't like the other two as much, character-wise, as I used to. I like this one. I want to just play this one. And so there went the ability to fully gear 3 gear sets at once. Which then becomes 6 and eventually all 7 with time over a given tier, before resetting. Now I get the one, which I have to split over the largest roles (MNK/SAM only because I didn't want to play casters or ranged this time, and tanks and healers).

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I am much the same way. I snuck alts onto Balmung ages ago with the full intent of leveling them to dodge Specialists and to possibly pug on another character without screwing my static. Alas, I have yet to get around to it mostly because I have an attachment to Cassandra, both in a game sense and because I recreate her nearly every game I play where I have the option to create a female character. Perhaps I am too pessimistic on the idea, but given the examples we've already seen with Light farming, Verity and etc. I just don't see people capping every week only to complain later there isn't anymore content. Which is why I feel the bigger issue is content itself. There needs to be more variety. Speaking on that subject...

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Either way this isn't likely to happen with the system currently set in place. Just imagine how clunky that would look, with Creation Tomes of Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Aiming, Fending, Healing, and Casting. It would look horrendous. No, this would have to be design philosophy of something new, that can make it work so people don't feel any more like they have to grind away at tomestones, tombstones, or whatever any more than they do not—hopefully less. They should feel more encouraged and able to play the game how they want and for want of just playing the game. I just really think that when we move towards that system, alt-friendliness shouldn't be limited to multi-character setups.

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If they were to ever branch out gear progression this way, I suspect tomestones would be abolished and gear would be funneled into different content. Something like how Diadem was supposed to be another alternative. Another possibility could be allowing us to choose the stats and that being our progression instead of an ilvl. I'm less inclined to believe they would be open to that though, if only because secondaries are weighed nearly as highly in XIV as other games. Perhaps some way to upgrade crafted gear might be something they add. At least in this scenario.

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A BiS alternative would have to be 340, competing with the augmented and Savage gear. And ideally, you'd want it to be upgradable with the next introduction of currency to whatever the new weekly cap gear would be. I'm sorry, I totally lost track of where I had gone into which details. That is totally on me. I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should assume that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis.

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I thought this might be the case after posting, and it wouldn't change much. Although, it does step on Savage a little bit since you would have two 340 pieces; a drop and the token upgrade. Either way, you're fine. We both probably were caught up in the moment at some point.

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Yeah, that's gotta be it. It just feels immensely hypocritical and counter-intuitive to me. in other words, it hits me right in the trigger button. And I know a lot admittedly small enough group of people to be wholly susceptible to sampling bias of people who have felt the same.

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In some ways, it is. But until it stops working for them, they really have little incentive to change. This is where I think variation would help-- which may come within the next few patch cycles. The way I see 4.0 is the devs relying a bit too heavily on the idea job changes would force people to relearn everything when most picked up their jobs within much fuss. If there is one thing they are horribly guilty of, it's always taking the absolute safest route possible.

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In truth, I'm the same way. For instance, I appreciate gating in that I'm not expected, therefore, to put in as many mindnumbing hours. People often think it holds us back, but all it really does imo is give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers), and reduced the portion of our time spent in preparation for the things we play more for their inherent enjoyment (such as raiding, comparatively speaking, and varying from person to person), all while keeping a larger portion of the population useful to you. Those are all really good things...

It's literally just the inconsistency there that gets me on principle. Its really a fairly separate issue for me, as passionate as I get about it. Ideally, there are a lot of ways I'd like to see small changes have significant effects to the game. I'd like to see a greater sense of consistent planning—something less tiered, more continuous—for progression, for catch-up mechanics, for alt-gearing, for example. But a lot of the fundamentals are more or less fine, apart from the very basic issue of the primary spenders of our game-time (e.g. Expert dungeons) aren't particularly fun in themselves, while we could be having a lot of fun even just meeting the basic everyday efforts of the game—it just feels like the carrot-and-stick is presumed sufficient, which may be symptomatic of the biggest problem I see with general design. 'Virtual' content. And not the best disguised, accessible, or reiterative form at that. I mean, WoW can often give us the exact same instance in a way that feels more exciting across two iterations (challenge levels) than two entirely separate Expert dungeons may feel here.

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That's fair perspective, honestly. As noted above, they do approach things far too safe. On the one hand, people argue the skill level is low, thus they can't make harder or more engaging content. My rebuttal has always been it's because you can coast through so much that skill gap exists. Take dungeons, for example. While I like most of those released in Stormblood (Template of the Fist can sod right off though), what I found engaging is healing through Bardam's Mettle with all Shire gear. The fact I had to make so many adjustments instead of the typical Holy spam made it a far better experience that I wish you got more consistently once you reached 70. This is where I feel WoW does a much better job with re-imagining its content. Unfortunately, it's hard to incentivize running a harder difficulty, though that could be where an alternative gear method comes into play. Like you said, the fundamentals are all there and the foundation is solid. They could just do with expanding it more with or without tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

So if I'm reading this correctly, you have a problem because you can't max out all of your characters and you don't want to invest because you don't know which job has the best .. numbers at max gear?
I'm trying to see this from your perspective and I guess being a casual player makes it difficult. Does actual like of character mechanics come into it at all?And a friendly reminder: they are "savage" encounters as in Rough and Brutal. No "L" . Salvage means recovering destroyed items. I understand what you mean, but it may be something someone would try to use as a counterpoint later and nobody likes that.

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TY, a lot, as you seen, love twisting my words around, like the few posts above yours.

If you want to understand fully, here is why I posted the thread in the first place:

In 2.0, I was harassed and kick abused contently because I was not in 120 gear. After learning people did this because people are too used in seeing i120+, I kept saying I am new I am trying to get currency to gear, can you pull slowly? 60% of the time it was "no" *full mega pull* > kick me because I did not have enough healing power, said I suck etc. The time gating here prevented me to catch up to handle stuff like that in an appropriate time frame. When I leaned about the existence of CT, I farmed that place for 16 hours straight once, and not once did I win that body and people with higher ilevels kept rolling it over then me. I would of just preferred to farm the tomestones on my own time and get around that abuse. I am guessing that abuse ended up too common, and in HW and SB, have frequent gating to prevent oversized mega pulls for situations like mine. Back then however I was just a WHM and PLD, and did not fully grasp the time gatings and how it applied to other jobs. I also knew i was not on even from a skill level stand point since I accepted my focus in crafting.

In HW, I started just before v2 came out (void ark 2, the city place), I just hit 60 whm a few weeks before it. So during that time, I struggled to understand what needed to be done and how get tomestones etc, though at this point I was starting to understanding the recycled concepts.

Then came 3.4 crafting and gathering geared for 60 and a few more jobs leveled past whm and PLD. This point when I leveled a new job to play with, I just used connections or my own skills (specialist gated) to be pure 250 to start out with. I remember someone mocking me over "buying market board gear" most likely praser harassment in a9N. over my MCH. So now time continued on, and put my time gate investments in BLM or MCH, depending what the sub stats were. (since gear is quickly replaced, the bad sub stat gear could be replaced with the newer stuff first) I thought I could perform well on MCH so i went to try do that relic, then did blm as a backup encase I could not perform enough on that, and in the mist of this WHM got gear, but due to gated, best WHM could get weapon wise was 255 from deep, so it was stuck that way for a while. So I could not really do well on MCH, the whole burst dependent did not seem to do well with me and the need to hit so many Ogcd buttons.. I couldn't do it fast enough so I just did savage on BLM. Because of the gear splitting, I could not meet those i270 farming pfs, so in order to do so, to talk to them, I got on my BLM, put on healer right, and explained I was a 262 whm and that was high enough for lore/light farming (or in the case of blm 265 ish something to 269 by itself) so because of the time gating and "picking wrong" it made it hard to join pfs and had to bypass it by mixing my gear and talking to people. I explained exactly what I was able to, to be able to join, if it was ok, and how I do fine farming at the gear level I was and that they where asking too much. (WHM DPS is important for lore farm speed, you want to clear it in 11-13 mins) Sometimes I went blm though and met other DPS/healers that where not quite skilled, despite having better gear (big skill gaps)

So now I am in SB and wish for the abuse not to repeat, so i am reluctant to time gear dump on a job when I only get one pick. The game should not be forcing me in one job when the supposed appeal is play all jobs on one character, something you can't do with the current system.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

The game should not be forcing me in one job when the supposed appeal is play all jobs on one character, something you can't do with the current system.

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That sounds incredibly frustrating and unnecessarily mean of those people you partied with and I'm sorry they treated you like that. This hasn't been my experience but that's probably because my FC and consequently my raid groups are good friends who don't "low ilevel we kick!" people. We've spent days trying and failing savage raids before actually getting them done. I've never been in a situation where I was bumping up on the cap of the latest savage raid.
In my experience (and I understand , MY experience), all content is accessible to any job you care to level to cap , which is what I'd venture SE means when they say all is accessible to one character. I contend they aren't falsely advertising this game which is one of the things I think people are bristling up against when you present your argument.

The limits you are bumping up against aren't content limitations for the sake of keeping you back, they're intended to keep people doing older content for longer. Gating to keep the game flowing.
Yes, you CANNOT play all jobs up to ilevel cap immediately. Yes you have to make a decision on what class you'd like to "main". This is what is keeping this game that we all love alive.

Yes.. there are probably better ways to do this and I hope they are found, but removing the artificial gate to progression would result in a surge and then death or at least severe degradation of server populations. This is why I argue removing caps is a bad idea.

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I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should assume that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis.

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Should have read "I've been jumping down your throat far too much to assume that my alternative would be entrusted mutatis mutandis." My typos creating yet more confusion....

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That's fair perspective, honestly. As noted above, they do approach things far too safe. On the one hand, people argue the skill level is low, thus they can't make harder or more engaging content. My rebuttal has always been it's because you can coast through so much that skill gap exists. Take dungeons, for example. While I like most of those released in Stormblood (Template of the Fist can sod right off though), what I found engaging is healing through Bardam's Mettle with all Shire gear. The fact I had to make so many adjustments instead of the typical Holy spam made it a far better experience that I wish you got more consistently once you reached 70. This is where I feel WoW does a much better job with re-imagining its content. Unfortunately, it's hard to incentivize running a harder difficulty, though that could be where an alternative gear method comes into play. Like you said, the fundamentals are all there and the foundation is solid. They could just do with expanding it more with or without tomestones.

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The sad thing for me was that my favorite moment in Bartam was imagining how cool it'd be to go hiking out there, free-form, while auto-pilot DPSing mass pulls as WHM. I had a couple pieces of Bartam gear carried over from leveling PLD, BRD, NIN, and SAM, and the tank was decently geared, but it just still ended up so muscle-memory that I couldn't help but chuckle a bit despairingly.

Some of ideas I've seen in the past include exchanging the Expert roulette (coin-flip) system for particular random daily bonus dungeons (50+) that are upscaled to meet your groups' level and item levels, potentially where you can add on a particular challenges for additional rewards and compete for best times for yet more rewards at the end of the day, revisions to or additional forms of PvP, entertaining overworld grindables (be that hunt revisions or new "Ruins" areas), missions (harking back to the 8-man instanced overworld scenarios, some of them decently difficult), new uses for our airships, etc. Many ranges of development effort necessary, and many ranges of potential resultant entertainment.

For myself, I'm not exactly sure where my focus should ideally be placed. I want to move away from the gear treadmill, or at least disguise it refreshingly, but more than that I just want to see the game as something I'd play even if there were no gear progression. But, trying to create ideas to that effect in a game (or indeed a genre) so firmly carrot-and-stick in design feels a bit... alien. And there are so many things I want to touch on even before that, from the way the story is delivered to the accessibility of lore and the openness of said story, the attractiveness of world interactions, the way cutscenes are handled (including their peeving stock animations every goddamn time), and plenty more.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

-snip-

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I think I understand. Light/lore farming is hard on tanks and healers back then.
Everyone just wanted 1 tank and 1 healer for quick farm. Friend of mine also switched to dps
after a frustrating all tanks farm. I'm not sure if it was because you're in balmung and
no cross world pf back then. Most ilevel needed for me to join pf was 255 on Savage.
I specialized in dps, this is how I get each 7 dps relics done even crafting my own gear.

I done some stats comparison for every jobs, and BiS never comes from 1 source. It's a mixed
ratio for each left/right side 2-1-2, 1-2-2, 2-2-1 depends on the job. from 3 different sources.
Tomes (light party), full party raids and 24-man raids. The time gate actually serves me better
so I can focus on raiding when I'm done with weekly. I'm sorry being too harsh, never had
bad experience like yours, but honestly I would wait until 24-man raids come before judging
any kind of BiS to get.

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Originally Posted by savageink

This totally screams "I want it all and I want it now.

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Recent posts seem to point more at "I want to be meta at all times therefore let me gear everything ASAP so I can always be in the meta".

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

That sounds incredibly frustrating and unnecessarily mean of those people you partied with and I'm sorry they treated you like that. This hasn't been my experience but that's probably because my FC and consequently my raid groups are good friends who don't "low ilevel we kick!" people. We've spent days trying and failing savage raids before actually getting them done. I've never been in a situation where I was bumping up on the cap of the latest savage raid.In my experience (and I understand , MY experience), all content is accessible to any job you care to level to cap , which is what I'd venture SE means when they say all is accessible to one character. I contend they aren't falsely advertising this game which is one of the things I think people are bristling up against when you present your argument.

The limits you are bumping up against aren't content limitations for the sake of keeping you back, they're intended to keep people doing older content for longer. Gating to keep the game flowing.
Yes, you CANNOT play all jobs up to ilevel cap immediately. Yes you have to make a decision on what class you'd like to "main". This is what is keeping this game that we all love alive.

Yes.. there are probably better ways to do this and I hope they are found, but removing the artificial gate to progression would result in a surge and then death or at least severe degradation of server populations. This is why I argue removing caps is a bad idea.

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Not exactly what I mean, the problem it KEEPS! << you on one job, on a neverending treadmill that makes you feel you can't keep up.

For example, once you can get say 5 or so 330 gear, they are going to release some 24 man thing, that was just like labyrinth of the ancients/ void ark that drops 330 gear while some kind of quest to upgrade 330 to 340. Just as your getting near cap, they are going to come up with a new patch to uncap creation and a new 450 tome and it just repeats over and over and over while in the mist of this, whoever comes in mid patch will be forever behind till the next one, while in the mists throw in some abuses by community over not being geared enough or dps parse enough.

" all content is accessible to any job you care to level to cap"
This is not true, once you level cap a job you are gated behind some ilevel, something that was a huge issue in 2.0, and a bit of a less issue in hw, and SB nulled it by giving people the 1 dungeon drop thing + i290 from quests, then you move to running DFs that drop i300 gear along with the 310 tomestone (least they did improve on the ilevel gating issue when you hit cap level for the first time)

Sorry I got a bit off track when i said no to your statement, what I mean was, MNOs now a days (guessing) like FFXIV just hand you exp to get you max level. I was told instead of making you take a long time to level for end game progression, they get you up to that point as quick as possible and make endgame progress slow. So if you are going to give people exp in unreal amounts, they are going to have more then one job at max level, and they should have everything acceptable at max level if that is the mentality of making exp rates so fast. So to slow down someone the first time, they MSQ gate, the very thing that discourages character alt making. So when you gate endgame like any other game that is 1 job per character, you are def walking a line where you are not truly letting people have access on all jobs, esp when people demand you be on your max ilevel job for anything.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Recent posts seem to point more at "I want to be meta at all times therefore let me gear everything ASAP so I can always be in the meta".

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again, no, it is a simple "tired of the same thing reskinned for 4 years while we lock you in playing one job" it is the same thing every 1-3 months, repeating itself,reskinning the same patches as was done in 2.0 and hw.

Well, this is one of those "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" type deals on SE's part.

Removing gates results in people spamming the content until they're geared out and then that content dies.
Leaving the gates, results in a limit on gear, resulting in slowly gearing out all their classes, which in turn makes playing those other classes feel less enjoyable because everyone complains how much of a hindrance you are to the group due to lackluster gear.

After seeing both systems in practice though, I prefer the gates to remain because when content dies off quickly like that, the game becomes stagnant as there is little character progress at that point and it becomes more of a Leaderboard race to the top, which I've never really enjoyed

The only thing that bugs me about the current system is that if you for some reason don't get to play for a week or two you'll miss out on tomes and be set behind everyone else, I wish there was a way to carry them over into the week after (so if let's say you have a week where you don't earn any tomes then the week after the cap would be 900 instead of 450)

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The only thing that bugs me about the current system is that if you for some reason don't get to play for a week or two you'll miss out on tomes and be set behind everyone else, I wish there was a way to carry them over into the week after (so if let's say you have a week where you don't earn any tomes then the week after the cap would be 900 instead of 450)

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I would support this as well. There are going to be times where it'll be impossible for us to play like we normally do. Whether it's 10 hrs a day, 4 hrs day, 3 times a week for 3 hrs each, whatever it may be. What, then? Depend on the gil that you have when crafted gear is usually in the 6-digits? Try to catch up doing Deltascape (N) then have players harass you for being under-geared despite requiring to be only 295? (Even though you're average ilvl is 300)

I'm honestly not asking for much. I'm not asking for the gates to go away. Doubling the weekly advanced tome cap to 900 would be great for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The only thing that bugs me about the current system is that if you for some reason don't get to play for a week or two you'll miss out on tomes and be set behind everyone else, I wish there was a way to carry them over into the week after (so if let's say you have a week where you don't earn any tomes then the week after the cap would be 900 instead of 450)

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Even a 50% rollover would be nice.

Got 250/450 last week? This week you have a cap of 550. 250/550 this week? 600 next week.

Would still keep people playing regularly, rather than growing disinterested, coming back 3 weeks later, and grinding into disinterest, but at least doesn't feel nearly so punitive.

You guys misunderstood everything. They're gating it so we can't gear up all the jobs because of the inventory/retainer space limit. :^)

Anything above i309 is obtained by limited means, (time gate) and someone bought up the reason they time gate is so PFs do not demand to much:
https://i.gyazo.com/a9f46e895cea0bdf...03bf454c49.png

I have no job that meets that ilevel because time gate gear is too limited for me to pick what job to invest in, so I am holding on tokens etc, because it only allows me gear 1 job. By the time 1 job is geared, they release a new time gate and makes it feel you can never keep up.

I do not mind some kind of time gate, but the current one is broken and does not allow us to gear more then 1 job (well I guess you can argue 2, one for creation and one for omega drops, but even then we still do not have access to a weapon higher then 310 outside the 320 crafted)

If you want to ague about getting crafted to meet this over-damanding PF, then the content has no point to being done to begin with since you can get all crafted 320. The system needs improvements and something different then what they have been doing since 2.0, its boring.

I want to be able to invest more then 2 jobs, with a game that advertises all jobs on 1 character, I think the request is reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

If you want to ague about getting crafted to meet this over-damanding PF, then the content has no point to being done to begin with since you can get all crafted 320. The system needs improvements and something different then what they have been doing since 2.0, its boring.

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You don't need all crafted i320 to reach an average of i315, though. There's also the option of starting your own PF, with a lower ilvl requirement.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

You don't need all crafted i320 to reach an average of i315, though. There's also the option of starting your own PF, with a lower ilvl requirement.

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In fact, you don't need any crafted gear to make i315 I believe. Full Susano/Lakshmi/i310 tome gear is enough to meet that, and none of that requires anything time gated.

Edit: full lakshmi right with a 310 ring puts you at 314, so one piece of 320 gear will make you 315.

Its why be all classes on one character is actually pretty deceiving when in GW2 and WoW its actually easier to level another class and gear it out normally from my experience.

I'm just sticking to SAM and MNK (shares gear except weapon), with FSH and MIN on the side later on.

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Originally Posted by Nakaress

Its why be all classes on one character is actually pretty deceiving when in GW2 and WoW its actually easier to level another class and gear it out normally from my experience.

I'm just sticking to SAM and MNK (shares gear except weapon), with FSH and MIN on the side later on.

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That is the point, yes, someone gets it

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...DEV-SUGGESTION