Dam. meter

I have no idea how you manage to not understand my points, or are you intentionally ignoring what I have to say?

I need to ask others, because I am confused. Is it clear to you, I was complaining about other instances of ilevel requirement dodging, like the one I shown? Why is it being ignored that several people are refuting phase skipping is a developer oversight? Why is it being ignored the reverse issue also exists, that you wipe due to too much DPS in some cases? Can we have a proper discussion with proof not spouting off opinions as facts?

You do realize, phase skipping exists in most boss fights?????????????????????? over the course of 2 or 3 years or whatever?

Lets put things this way. If people do content with minimum item level then there are no mechanics skipping.
As you get better gear, phases last shorter and the fight clear time gets shorter.
By the time you have BiS and good dps, you can skip mechanics or skip a whole phase (like niddhog towers, lol imagine if it was 'mandatory' to skip them back then).

Believe me, finding people that can skip is harder than you think. It is not a common thing, it is a group work that includes healers and tanks as well. Which is why many people are complaining now about zurvan.

I still don't believe it is a mistake. It is your reward for being good. And people are finding it fun to speed run hard content to see how many phases/mechanics they can skip.

As long as the content can be cleared without skipping there is no problem. The problem here is that people think skipping mechanics is the norm thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Skipping content has nothing to do with the subject. And is just an attempt to deflect the discussion.

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I already gave my opinion about it in previous post.

Skipping content has nothing to do with the subject. And is just an attempt to deflect the discussion.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

How many of you against parser support on ps4 actually do high end raids?
Do any of your party members have parsers?
Do any of you ask a friend to parse you if you are working on a new opening rotation?
Have you ever tried tweaking your stats to see how much of a diffence it makes?
Have you ever tried a different aoe rotation in a dungeon?
you honestly going to say SSS is the equivalent of a parser in any of these situations?
The only way to know how much dps you are actually doing on it is by using the online dummy numbers figured out by those who use parsers.

now the real question is.... how many of you against parsers don't actually care about how much damage you are doing as long as your party can carry you?
do you try to improve? Or just think better gear = better dps.

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I do. Cleared all of Coil and Alexander without a parser.
I did once, and didn't feel I personally gained much from it. Practice and some trial and error proved more effective in learning and refining my rotation. But then again, that would imply that it's entirely possible for someone to actually learn to perform well without a parser. . .
No, I know exactly what stats I should have and have geared effectively for that.
I have a free, no TP aoe, on top of all other aoe skills I have.
No, I think SSS is pretty mad as a measuring tool all around.
If you really want to nitpick, one could filter the battle log and do the math themselves. Lots of work, but doable.

And for your "real" question, I care very much about my own personal performance. I don't carry, and won't be carried. I have always sought ways to improve even without being able to use a parser, and at this point, anyone who wishes to play their job well knows that pure item level does not beat proper stats.

You make the VERY wrong assumption through your post that console players and people against parsers are content with being subpar. You make the further wrong assumption that simply having/adding/supporting parsers will make you a better player. If you're going to try to make critical points and ask questions to support it, don't make assumptions.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

You make the VERY wrong assumption through your post that console players and people against parsers are content with being subpar. You make the further wrong assumption that simply having/adding/supporting parsers will make you a better player. If you're going to try to make critical points and ask questions to support it, don't make assumptions.

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There is not assumptions, you need proper information and for that you need tools and a place to compare numbers. Without numbers you are no longer using facts just "feelings".

Skips are there for a season. It pays for great play but also those for who cant do mechanic and do it in echo. Its true.

It's not impossible to improve without a parser. But it is significantly more difficult, because of the data you can gather and immediately put to use.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Skipping content has nothing to do with the subject. And is just an attempt to deflect the discussion.

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If you want to go back to the subject devs say no to parsers. Dev gets irritated and tries to leave a interview panel when it was mentioned recently. What matters is the maker does not want a parser.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

It's not impossible to improve without a parser. But it is significantly more difficult, because of the data you can gather and immediately put to use.

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It is not difficult at all. We have training dummies to improve upon and is significantly easier when you can master/learn your rotation before having to tackle content. Plus jobs do not change often between x.0 mega patches so you can have quite an easy time improving yourself which you should before stepping into the high end. Near mastery of your main job is already a requisite to high end raid teams.

@ThirdChild. Ok we have 1 person so far. The things i listed are very possible w/o a parser of course. So good on you.
The point of all my questions was to filter out good players from bad. To me it seems most of the players in here are afraid of parsers because they don't want to get booted from dungeons. Anyone who is good at their job shouldn't be concerned.
So. Question for you. Why do you not want in game parsers?

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Originally Posted by Ashua

It is not difficult at all. We have training dummies to improve upon and is significantly easier when you can master/learn your rotation before having to tackle content. Plus jobs do not change often between x.0 mega patches so you can have quite an easy time improving yourself which you should before stepping into the high end. Near mastery of your main job is already a requisite to high end raid teams.

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I'm telling you that a parser makes it easier, by far. Since I have played with and without them in many MMO's, I feel I can say that with certainty.

I don't doubt your ability at all. I don't. I'm simply telling you that a parser makes self-improvement much faster and easier if you know how to use the tool. Now, if you don't, that's another story. Using a screwdriver as a hammer won't get you anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I'm telling you that a parser makes it easier, by far. Since I have played with and without them in many MMO's, I feel I can say that with certainty.

I don't doubt your ability at all. I don't. I'm simply telling you that a parser makes self-improvement much faster and easier if you know how to use the tool. Now, if you don't, that's another story. Using a screwdriver as a hammer won't get you anywhere.

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im sorry , but everything that has to be sayed has been sayed alrdy in the past 25 pages.

the only thing that left for players to do after 25 pages of identical responses , is trying to sound smarter then everyone else ^^

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I'm telling you that a parser makes it easier, by far. Since I have played with and without them in many MMO's, I feel I can say that with certainty.

I don't doubt your ability at all. I don't. I'm simply telling you that a parser makes self-improvement much faster and easier if you know how to use the tool. Now, if you don't, that's another story. Using a screwdriver as a hammer won't get you anywhere.

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I did clear savage alex 1-4 without parser, I did coil without a parser too. But honestly on help from others WITH a parser, they told me to increase my dps which helped me a lot to re-do my skills, when to pop stuff and when not to. Having a parser would def make my life easier, but I'm on ps4, so I cant. And why do people here who are againt's parser have to talk for the console players? Do they even have a clue how many on the ps4 wants to actually have a parser? :/

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

im sorry , but everything that has to be sayed has been sayed alrdy in the past 25 pages.

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But also some people tend to say something we never said, so some people have to repeat themselves too many times. :/

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Originally Posted by Driavna

There is not assumptions, you need proper information and for that you need tools and a place to compare numbers. Without numbers you are no longer using facts just "feelings".

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Bull. Before parsers, people learned to play their jobs in RPGs well and developed optimal rotations - without the assistance of parsers. Now with or without parsers, people can learn their job and learn optimal rotations without a parser or some ProBro telling them what to do - because some people actually pay attention to what the game tells them, and some people want to improve, so they do.

If you want to be a Vulcan about it an deride players who learn to play their role without the numbers you prize so highly, that's your problem, and no one else's.

Learn your skills, learn how they work, learn when they can be used to best effect - bu *understanding* the game and your job. It makes you much more effective than being a paint by numbers player who only knows how to hit certain numbers in certain conditions.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Bull. Before parsers, people learned to play their jobs in RPGs well and developed optimal rotations - without the assistance of parsers. Now with or without parsers, people can learn their job and learn optimal rotations without a parser or some ProBro telling them what to do - because some people actually pay attention to what the game tells them, and some people want to improve, so they do.

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I'm going to ask you who you think does all the work in optimizing how a class is "played and learned well" so that people without parsers don't have to use them in the first place. Because let me tell you, people have been using Pen and Paper math/ Programs and sharing the information within gaming communities since the dawn of MMO's.

So whether or not you believe you need a parser to learn your class, remember that the information and rotations shared between players are derived from number crunching, whether is be paper or program.

There's more to damage/rotation/learning than reading some tooltips. It helps! Don't get me wrong, but it's pretty misleading to say that all the information is front faced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I'm going to ask you who you think does all the work in optimizing how a class is "played and learned well" so that people without parsers don't have to use them in the first place. Because let me tell you, people have been using Pen and Paper math/ Programs and sharing the information within gaming communities since the dawn of MMO's.

So whether or not you believe you need a parser to learn your class, remember that the information and rotations shared between players are derived from number crunching, whether is be paper or program.

There's more to damage/rotation/learning than reading some tooltips. It helps! Don't get me wrong, but it's pretty misleading to say that all the information is front faced.

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I disagree, the information needed is in the batle logs, and the skill information, and especially the real world performance. Unless people are simply not watching how much damage they do, they can't help but learn how their skills perform during combat.

I've said before, and will say again that I can see a role for parsers in end-game/hardcore/savage difficulty content because of the tighter DPS checks, I am not doubting that. But I would contend that you can get to within about 85% of optimal by actually learning your job, paying attention to the game and battle log. Not everyone can do this, and even with a parser very, very few can hit the level of perfection required to maintain an optimal rotation for more than a single series, the timings needed are too tight, and conditions in battle will force corrections and other changes that prevent players from hitting that perfect rotation.

I do feel though that players who have mastered their job and can hit around about 85% of optimal damage with their play, will be able to improve in end-game, perhaps even through the use of a damage meter or other tool.

However most of the time this subject is discussed the most vehement criticism of players and demand for parsers comes from posters who describe others as if they are doing nothing more than auto attack damage. A parser can't and won't help such players. Nor will having a specific number for their DPS as a comparison make them see shame for their performance.

Lastly. I am well aware that there is a player community that theory crafts rotations and that they did so before the advent of parsers and they continue to do so with the assistance of the data derived from game logs (however it's derived). But I am also aware that outside of that community there are a lot of very good players who learned to play their job/role/class in whichever game without reference to all of that theory crafting and data.

Note, I am not saying you can learn your rotation from just reading tooltips. I am saying you can do it by reading that information, understanding it, putting it into practice in-game and watching your damage numbers - even reviewing battle logs, and by trying different things and really learning to play that job. There is a lot of difference between simply reading tool tips and spending months playing and improving your craft (how well you play your job/role) through practice, practice, practice.

Let's not forget when you are in a dungeon with someone that is pulling tge group down, their excuse for not improving is "i don't have time to look up guides bla bla." Ok so obviously they don't care enough. But if they had a number right in their face they might miiiiight try to make that number higher.

I know people can be jerks, but you don't need a parser to be a jerk. Pluuuusss number shaming can still be considered harassment. So really you guys have no actual solid argument against this feature.

Also, back then in the older mmos, performing bad and dying was quite punishing compared to the 'holding hand/everything is fine approach' current titles do.

XP loss and even level downs were possible, significant durability loss on gear with finite lifetime was common, resurrection often came with a huge cost of condition(/vitality) restoration, magic casting (before 'cast bars' were the norm) could be interrupted by the slightest attacks whenever it did damage or not, hitting under 25% of your max HP would start slowing you down and made clutch escapes impossible.

Servers didn't had matchmaking like today, so your reputation decided whenever you are getting invited into the big raid or being a 'Persona non grata'

And now? You hit up a mender and 'repair all'. Done. Nothing valuable was lost with the exception of maybe 300 gil and no lessons were learned for NoobDragoon#51 who kept falling off the edge in titan nm, because the consequences for underperforming have become a non issue. Was just another faceless player you might never see again in the dungeon finder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Also, back then in the older mmos, performing bad and dying was quite punishing compared to the 'holding hand/everything is fine approach' current titles do.

XP loss and even level downs were possible, significant durability loss on gear with finite lifetime was common, resurrection often came with a huge cost of condition(/vitality) restoration, magic casting (before 'cast bars' were the norm) could be interrupted by the slightest attacks whenever it did damage or not, hitting under 25% of your max HP would start slowing you down and made clutch escapes impossible.

And today? You hit up a mender and 'repair all'. Done. Nothing valuable was lost with the exception of maybe 300 gil and no lessons were learned for NoobDragoon#51 who kept falling off the edge in titan nm, because the consequences for underperforming have become a non issue.

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That very much depends on the player. I feel bad if there is even a death, never mind a wipe. When I heal, even more so. My wife gets very stressed if anyone even get's close to death during a fight. Why? Because we care not only how well we perform for our own satisfaction, but how well we contribute to the team so as not to let the team down. A lot of what you and others are talking about relates more to the way people act and react, and how they view their performance, than it does with actual performance.

You don't need big XP penalties or lots gear or whatever to punish you in order to feel bad and want to do better, you just need a sense of pride in how you play and contribute to the team.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

...

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No, you are wrong and emotional.

Data is needed (and a place to compare it too) without it is all about "feelings" and no facts. Also, at any point I say you only needed numbers, thats on you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I do. Cleared all of Coil and Alexander without a parser.
I did once, and didn't feel I personally gained much from it. Practice and some trial and error proved more effective in learning and refining my rotation. But then again, that would imply that it's entirely possible for someone to actually learn to perform well without a parser. . .
No, I know exactly what stats I should have and have geared effectively for that.I have a free, no TP aoe, on top of all other aoe skills I have.
No, I think SSS is pretty mad as a measuring tool all around.
If you really want to nitpick, one could filter the battle log and do the math themselves. Lots of work, but doable.

And for your "real" question, I care very much about my own personal performance. I don't carry, and won't be carried. I have always sought ways to improve even without being able to use a parser, and at this point, anyone who wishes to play their job well knows that pure item level does not beat proper stats.

You make the VERY wrong assumption through your post that console players and people against parsers are content with being subpar. You make the further wrong assumption that simply having/adding/supporting parsers will make you a better player. If you're going to try to make critical points and ask questions to support it, don't make assumptions.

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I always did enjoy your postings and this is another that stands out. I am not the "best" but I care about my performance and do better then most. I do not need a praser to tell me this but it was interesting to see when I got a friend that used one and show me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

@ThirdChild. Ok we have 1 person so far. The things i listed are very possible w/o a parser of course. So good on you.
The point of all my questions was to filter out good players from bad. To me it seems most of the players in here are afraid of parsers because they don't want to get booted from dungeons. Anyone who is good at their job shouldn't be concerned.
So. Question for you. Why do you not want in game parsers?

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you need to read back, because that was answered:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I don't think the issue lies in people being exposed and shamed for underperforming, as that already does happen even without parsers.

What I think many are concerned with is areas where someone IS legitimately trying their best, but perhaps isn't "optimal" and getting absolutely dumped on for it. This is in now way defending mediocrity or performing at a "good enough to clear" level. This is entirely an issue of parsers becoming the enforced standard. This is "Skip soar or disband". This is "Must have purple parses on FFLogs". . . Neither of those being absolute necessity to actually clear the content at hand. And the community already has enough of a problem going to extremes to get things done.

I won't discredit people who legitimately use them to improve their performance, but if you're that dedicated to performing your best, and you know your job/rotation well, a parser won't offer you much more than you likely already have a solid grasp of.

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Why I do not want OFFICIAL prasers is because how the community acts now with the unofficial ones. The ones that offer advice do so with out them, while people with them, just harass people. THAT IS WHY! the community already proved they cannot handle it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

@ThirdChild. Ok we have 1 person so far. The things i listed are very possible w/o a parser of course. So good on you.
The point of all my questions was to filter out good players from bad. To me it seems most of the players in here are afraid of parsers because they don't want to get booted from dungeons. Anyone who is good at their job shouldn't be concerned.
So. Question for you. Why do you not want in game parsers?

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Thing is, I'm actually not against parsers. But I'm not trying to ignore the human nature that'd be in full effect with them. Please refer to my earlier comment about a PvP situation. It may be different from PvE and scripted encounters, but the main point is someone tried to contend that a person who did slightly more damage than I did in a long match but scored no kills (versus my slightly less damage and 10 kills, the most of my team) performed better. Were you going to look at the damage alone, sure you could say that person did "better". What that damage actually amounted to is what really tells the real tale there. And let's not act like it's not easy to pad and fluff numbers. Let's also not act like people won't simply take things at face value "because the parser says".

Simply put: the parser might say Player A deals more damage than Player B, but Player B performed mechanics with better technical expertise, perhaps at times sacrificing damage to ensure a critical mechanic - like T8's Allagan Field on a melee - didn't complicate or wipe the party. If it's all numbers, sure take Player A and enjoy dealing with that, especially if you're a healer. Player B isn't a lesser player nor worth being overlooked or excluded (like people would do, let's not kid ourselves) simply because of numbers.

Parsers aren't the problem, the human element is, and SE knows exactly who they're dealing with. Give a man the opportunity to do wrong, and you'd be amazed how many actually do. Give an arsonist matches and watch the world burn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You don't need bix XP penalties or lots gear or whatever to punish you in order to feel bad and want to do better, you just need a sense of pride in how you play and contribute to the team.

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I edited a bit above, so just as an info. :)

Of course, people will try to 'get gud' on their own behalf, but back then the consequences were severe enough for even less skillfull players to get motivated to think about their classes and how they can get better.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

No, you are wrong and emotional.

Data is needed (and a place to compare it too) without it is all about "feelings" and no facts. Also, at any point I say you only needed numbers, thats on you.

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Turn off your targeting computer and use the force.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Why I do not want OFFICIAL prasers is because how the community acts now with the unofficial ones. The ones that offer advice do so with out them, while people with them, just harass people. THAT IS WHY! the community already proved they cannot handle it.

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Again more emotional stuff, anything in the game be use to harass people, period. Using your logic chat and names should be turned off while using duty finder, because people can use it to harras you for fail a mechanic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Again more emotional stuff, anything in the game be use to harass people, period. Using your logic chat and names should be turned off while using duty finder, because people can use it to harras you for fail a mechanic.

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Humans are emotional creatures, to deny that is illogical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Again more emotional stuff, anything in the game be use to harass people, period. Using your logic chat and names should be turned off while using duty finder, because people can use it to harras you for fail a mechanic.

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You are not understanding how people act. Some are simply not going to care what that number says. I posted earlier how I remarked to someone pulling low DPS and he said no one told him before it is just a game and did not care. So what is going to happen, if prasers where official will only provoke more fights between people that "do not care" / casual and the "elite". Prasers may also provoke those that are somewhat good and can "top" most random people in DF to start kicking people just because of numbers.

has nothing to do with feelings, its just a simple case it brings more harm then good to the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Parsers aren't the problem, the human element is, and SE knows exactly who they're dealing with. Give a man the opportunity to do wrong, and you'd be amazed how many actually do. Give an arsonist matches and watch the world burn.

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Oh I understand how people act and again is all about "if". Yeah, there are dicks out there, so what? Block, report and move along with your life. As I said, with your logic anything that can be used in a wrong way should be remove.

They removed the chat from "arenas" and people spam a certain emote to point out mistakes from other players, dicks keep harassaing but everyone suffer without a proper way to communicate.

I agree with the premise that anything can be abused to abuse and harass, which is exactly why I don't think that harassment is a key point against the implementation of anything in an MMO. The situation and question at hand should be the weighing of (Or lack of) merits by a proposed idea. What is there to gain and what is there to lose with the introduction of a parser if we take "harassment" and it's boundless POTENTIAL influence on all facets of the game. I'd say there's much more to gain than there is to lose.

If harassment was the say all, be all final verdict on the implementation of functions in this game, we wouldn't have emotes, /tells, vote kick, friend invites. These are just a few things that get abused to harass others, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be in the game.

So for the people who are wholeheartedly against official parsers, if you remove harassment from your own equation, what are the downsides that outweigh the potential increase in players effectiveness?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

-snip-

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Alright.
We already have a 3rd party that can be used by people that really care about it adding a built-in one would be redundant and a waste of resources since it's only really relevant to mid to hardcore content.
It is already possible to detect people that aren't performing that well without parsers in casual end-game content, usually it won't really matter that much if there is a person slacking off on DPS depending on what you're doing. Not to the point that it'll cause you to not complete said content with ease.
People can also use said 3rd party parser to improve their own DPS if they wish to do so. Even though the natural evolution is a lot more fun and rewarding.
The community itself is split between yes and no thus implementing said feature would upset a portion of the community whilst not implementing it can be less harmful since there is already a 3rd party one available. With all due respect, your point isn't valid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llan

Alright.
We already have a 3rd party that can be used by people that really care about it adding a built-in one would be redundant and a waste of resources since it's only really relevant to mid to hardcore content.
It is already possible to detect people that aren't performing that well without parsers in casual end-game content, usually it won't really matter that much if there is a person slacking off on DPS depending on what you're doing. Not to the point that it'll cause you to not complete said content with ease.
People can also use said 3rd party parser to improve their own DPS if they wish to do so. Even though the natural evolution is a lot more fun and rewarding.
The community itself is split between yes and no thus implementing said feature would upset a portion of the community whilst not implementing it can be less harmful since there is already a 3rd party one available. With all due respect, your point isn't valid.

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Many people aren't comfortable using third party software. That could be a huge alleviation in itself. It being more used in midcore/hardcore content doesn't mean that it wouldn't have use in softcore content because unless you're already 100% efficient (Good luck) with your class, there's room to improve- unless you're one of those people that believe a 90 minute dungeon run is just as good as a 20 minute one because it got done.

It's also not the point to "detect people not performing well", it's about having the tools to help yourself up and actually perform well. You wouldn't have to detect others doing poorly and inform them because they would already have their own numbers on their screen.

"Natural evolution and course of learning is more fun anyways"... for you personally.

The community is split between yes and no which is why I'm inquiring in the first place, and so far the main concern is harassment which my previous post I've tried to illustrate that everything can and is abused, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

-snip-

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Everything you're saying right now is basically: "I feel it's like this therefore it's a fact".
The facts are, you do not need anything to have fun and complete casual content.

People are already using parsers in end-game hardcore content. There is no problem to be solved.
So adding a parser will solve which problems, but do not consider your major argument so that it can be easier for me to refute, sounds familiar?

And isn't your opinion also "for you personally"? I mean for reals, if we are suppose to not consider semantics here, then this whole discussion is irrelevant and the logical thing is to not implement something that already exists, even though it is not built-in it still solves the very problem people are bringing up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Let's not forget when you are in a dungeon with someone that is pulling tge group down, their excuse for not improving is "i don't have time to look up guides bla bla." Ok so obviously they don't care enough. But if they had a number right in their face they might miiiiight try to make that number higher.

I know people can be jerks, but you don't need a parser to be a jerk. Pluuuusss number shaming can still be considered harassment. So really you guys have no actual solid argument against this feature.

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The problem's bigger than that. Just as you make the point that someone doesn't need a parser to be a jerk, a parser isn't going to magically make someone who doesn't care to try suddenly want to.

Simply put: Those who want to perform well will find a way, parser or not. Those who don't care, won't care, parser or not. There WILL be people who fall in the gap between, and things like "Skip Soar or disband", "Must have [inflexible overstandard] or kick" will just get worse. It's gonna be pretty lame when only the absolute top 1% are either doing it all or getting nowhere because they're too busy overlooking people who are perfectly capable, even good, but not the best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llan

And isn't your opinion also "for you personally"? I mean for reals,

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That's why I'm inquiring :)

I can see that you don't believe having an astonishing low bottom line player base as a communal issue, so I can see how you wouldn't see eye to eye with my points. If you don't see that as a problem, that's where our dissonance is! I believe this community can be better if given the tools to do so, and I also don't believe it's problematic, elitist or anti-casual- but I do understand how you may see people wanting numbers on screen as opposing to your views.

So what I've gathered from your posts is that you're worried it will pull away from resources and that it's not necessary for casual content.

Would you mind an official parser being added to Midcore and Hardcore content? Or was that just a half point for yourself?

Edit: Side note! You say the community is split on yes/no, how would you feel about a checkbox in the settings for if you want to display an official parser or not (Depending on Mid/Hard or +Soft depending on how you answer my above question).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llan

Alright.
We already have a 3rd party that can be used by people that really care about it adding a built-in one would be redundant and a waste of resources

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Going to let you in on a secret. They already exist for developer builds. It'd take significantly less resources than you'd think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I can see that you don't believe having an astonishing low bottom line player base as a communal issue, so I can see how you wouldn't see eye to eye with my points. If you don't see that as a problem, that's where our dissonance is! I believe this community can be better if given the tools to do so

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The problem with that line of thinking, is it's rather absolutist. "If you put the tool in officially, EVERYONE will use it and want to better themselves!" This is kinda what I've been getting from the pro parser side in some of the recent posts. It's just a little to...aaahhh I don't know how to put it, but it isn't quite right. There will always be bad players and there will always be players who think they are fine where they are. No amount of tools and parsers is gonna change that. Surely you gotta understand that. So what do we do about them? Kick and boot underperforming players from runs till they quit the game? Then we lose players and subs which means a loss of money and funds for the game.

Those who want to improve themselves will seek out the tools to do so. I don't think adding an official parser is gonna magically flip a switch in bad player's heads to go "Thank god they added an official parser, without one, I had no desire to improve myself. But now that they have added one, I do!" so it makes me wonder if this hard push for an official parser is more for validation and acknowledgement of the players who do use them. So, I do have to ask, if we did add a parser and it didn't raise the overall player skill level, then what? The question goes both ways. I don't know, I think I'm rambling at this point. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

The problem with that line of thinking, is it's rather absolutist. "If you put the tool in officially, EVERYONE will use it and want to better themselves!"

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I'm sorry if I put it across like that! But even if EVERYONE has a parser, of course not everyone will improve. But maybe SOME people will improve and that's great for the community as a whole! But at the same point, if everyone had a parser, I doubt many people would get worse so it's really at no loss and potentially all gain.

As for abuse and kicking, I made a post on the previous page of this thread explaining how I don't believe that harassment and abuse of tools in an MMO stands for grounds of opposition to it's implementation. We wouldn't have much more than a skeleton of a game if fear of harassment stood in the way of new things.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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Well, you obviously haven't read my other posts in this thread.
I'll sum my view on this matter up.
There is a gap between top-tier DPSs and the majority of the community, yes. A parser will not solve that, I strongly believe that it will cause more harm than good overall. A small percentage of players might start improving over their numbers because they have that information, but as mentioned people that don't care, will still not care about their DPS being optimal. I think diverting resources into a built-in parser implementation for a small percentage of the player-base to use is a waste.

From a game's development stand point you can only justify that time if it would guarantee benefits to the majority of the player base without generating a backlash or increase in customer service work because of it.

There are other solutions to improve players performances that don't rely on the community to "be nice about low numbers and teach people". Which is what they'll try to do in SB. I'd say having a better Novice Network training quest line would also be beneficial and more engaging than a parser with systems that they already have in-game thus requiring "less work". A small revamp into the practice dummy would also be an interesting solution to allow low DPS players to improve their rotations without being DPS shamed by people everywhere.

Im also not a White Knight for the bad players in hardcore content. If you are joining hardcore raid groups you should know that you need to be at your best.

@Canadane

Like moving something from dev to production environment will not generate problems.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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But again, those people who want to improve will seek the tools themselves. So what happens to those who don't? I'm not talking harassment, abuse maybe but the question is ultimately, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? Do we just boot and exclude them till they quit? I understand the benefits of adding an official parser, I get them 100% but I think we're only looking at the benefits and not really the side effects that could come from it. Trying to remove the discussion about how the parser could be abused, removes a serious portion of discussion. When the abuse starts hurting the game itself.

(PREFACE: Keep in mind, I am not talking about all pro parser users, more the extremes who do boot and exclude people based on parsers.)

If you introduce an official parser, it normalizes the behaviors that come with it. So those who boot based on parsers would most likely be way more open about it and the fact we have GMs essentially saying it's ok to vote kick people based on differing playstyles, means there are no repercussions for people who would abuse the parser to exclude other players. While yes, I think the benefits from adding an official parser are good, I think this would be one of those additions that the top tiers benefit the most from, mid tier players would benefit some from, and low tier players would be hurt by it, possibly leading to players quitting cause they can't get into content.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

If you introduce an official parser, it normalizes the behaviors that come with it.

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I believe that most of the Pro vs Against ideas can be boiled down to this statement, which I disagree with. We know that /say /shout /tell, friends list, vote kick, emotes, Back in the day we had Spirit Bonders in parties and 24 man and things of that sort- are all used for abusive means, but none of us just sit back and normalize being spammed 100+ times. We get mad, cranky and even report when people use these functions for their worst. But at the same time do you think the game would be for the better without them?

Having some dicks at an event doesn't normalize being a dick, but getting rid of the event in the first place means nobody gets to partake.