Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

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Originally Posted by melisande

Let me change the title for you:
Using all of the skills / actions you are able to use on your job is completely normal.

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A more comedic title would be "yes it ok to be a second class black mage" Least a whm you do, sch do have a lot more abilities to use and not sure about ast though.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I disagree that the comparison is the same of Guild Wars 1 to this. In GW1 it was unexpected of when people were going to get hit. In FFXIV everything is on a timer.

In terms of the add phase, that is a little bit more GW1 in what I am saying, in that I know to succor as adds get low on HP - especially pre cochma death and post cocham indom/succor. That said, aoe healing isn't that fun. I'd rather have unexpected damage spikes on the DPS that I need to be ready for and ready to heal asap or they are going to die. Putting on cleric stance and DPSing would be this huge risk and likely result in deaths. Instead, I can pop it on relatively risk free in 'healing intensive' encounters.

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Well yeah I was actually wrong about the comparison now that I think about it because it'll depend on things like the distance and duration of the mob getting near that person (unless it's a ranged attack) and there might be no clarification to who and when they're attacking since I assume this isn't as scripted as FFXIV's encounters then yeah, I'm wrong.
Taking some reflection, I have to agree that FFXIV's fights is awfully scripted sadly but said it wasn't predictable because it depends on the party's performance. I guess I'm wrong again.

I don't really have a problem with fights these days lacking the opportunity to heal and I don't really mind DPSing as a healer most of the time either, I enjoy doing both but to be honest I enjoy DPSing more because healing is just snooze-fest easy anyway. Unexpected damage would be pretty surprising and I can see the fun in that.
I mean, I can see why people would want rather heal more since pretty much it's been stressed that they're playing healers for it, it's just that healing is rather boring in most encounters so far, so I find more fun in DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I disagree, even in raids and such, DPS from healers is very much a thing. Further, healing is way too predictable. I know exactly which person will be hit when for how much at any given point. Healing in Guild Wars 1 was much more involved and interesting even in just the open world (I use 'open world' loosely here as technically everything was instanced). To elaborate, a proactive measure in Guild Wars 1 would be - Oh i see a big ass mob running towards our caster, I'll start casting a big heal on the caster. A proactive measure in FFXIV is oh it's 2:43 into the fight, let's adlo the ranged DPS.

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Oh, I know that dps from healers is a thing. I was just saying that that's where you actually have to heal. I absolutely agree with you that healing is too predictable, and also agree with the other person who was saying healing is too strong. These are "problems" with healing in this game. I personally don't like these aspects of healers. But I do like healer being able to dps as well, so I'm not entirely complaining about it. At least not in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

In fact, I read his post entirely differently as you did ?

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I think it depends what you believe and which side you defend. But let me know how different.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They do. It's just not in the dungeons.

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Are you referring to doing dungeons in max ilvl gear, or level appropriate gear. Dungeons do not, unfortunately, scale with gear, and ilvl sync is too weak to really make things work as they should. The dungeons are designed around active healing. If you remember running any dungeon in a group that just barely meets the ilvl requirement for the dungeon, then you have to remember that healing was very much *required* in dungeons when running with appropriate ilvls. But by the time you out-gear the dungeon by god knows how many ilvls, even with Sync, most DPS can deal with incoming damage using their self heals and mitigation skills, as can tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Are you referring to doing dungeons in max ilvl gear, or level appropriate gear. Dungeons do not, unfortunately, scale with gear, and ilvl sync is too weak to really make things work as they should. The dungeons are designed around active healing. If you remember running any dungeon in a group that just barely meets the ilvl requirement for the dungeon, then you have to remember that healing was very much *required* in dungeons when running with appropriate ilvls. But by the time you out-gear the dungeon by god knows how many ilvls, even with Sync, most DPS can deal with incoming damage using their self heals and mitigation skills, as can tanks.

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The thing is, the 2 new dungeons aren't really like this. The ilvl we all went into them at was 210, but they were scaled even easier than the last set of dungeons. Healing them is akin to healing Copperbell or Toto Rak normal, I'd say - where Haukke Manor is slightly more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Are you referring to doing dungeons in max ilvl gear, or level appropriate gear. Dungeons do not, unfortunately, scale with gear, and ilvl sync is too weak to really make things work as they should. The dungeons are designed around active healing. If you remember running any dungeon in a group that just barely meets the ilvl requirement for the dungeon, then you have to remember that healing was very much *required* in dungeons when running with appropriate ilvls. But by the time you out-gear the dungeon by god knows how many ilvls, even with Sync, most DPS can deal with incoming damage using their self heals and mitigation skills, as can tanks.

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Level appropriate. See Kaurie's post. Also, all the early level dungeons require extremely little healing until you get to Brayflox. And even then, they don't require much.

Once you get to level 50 dungeons, the only reason they require much healing at all is because of excessively large pulls. And you can still dps in those!

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Level appropriate. See Kaurie's post. Also, all the early level dungeons require extremely little healing until you get to Brayflox. And even then, they don't require much.

Once you get to level 50 dungeons, the only reason they require much healing at all is because of excessively large pulls. And you can still dps in those!

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I'm sorry, I just don't agree. I don't think you can do without a healer in any of the dungeons starting with Brayflox, and doing the others can be difficult without a healer. Perhaps a group of 4 from a raid static who execute at a very high level might pull it off, but I think you're extremely over-confident to make a blanket statement like those when you consider average players..

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The thing is, the 2 new dungeons aren't really like this. The ilvl we all went into them at was 210, but they were scaled even easier than the last set of dungeons. Healing them is akin to healing Copperbell or Toto Rak normal, I'd say - where Haukke Manor is slightly more difficult.

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I see that they require ilvl 180, so you went in at ilvl 210 which is 30 ilvls higher than the target. You're overgeared before you even get in there. I agree that's is a problem with the design, and if they are scaled to be easier than the prior dungeons, that simply makes the problem worse.

What I am having a problem with is people saying that healing is not required in dungeons. All things being equal, if players are not overgeared, there is a healing requirement in most, if not all dungeons. Even if they are scaled poorly for their ilvl. There's also an element of player capability as well. If we're talking about good players, then the healing requirement may be lighter, but with average or worse players, the healing requirement will be apparent.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm sorry, I just don't agree. I don't think you can do without a healer in any of the dungeons starting with Brayflox, and doing the others can be difficult without a healer. Perhaps a group of 4 from a raid static who execute at a very high level might pull it off, but I think you're extremely over-confident to make a blanket statement like those when you consider average players..

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It has little to do with the skill of the players and more to do with the strength of our heals. Cure heals about 50%+ of the tank's HP for most of the early game. It takes a pretty long time for their HP to drop that low unless if you're making large pulls.

SCH can actually solo the low level dungeons without even needing to cast a heal.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It has little to do with the skill of the players and more to do with the strength of our heals. Cure heals about 50%+ of the tank's HP for most of the early game. It takes a pretty long time for their HP to drop that low unless if you're making large pulls.

SCH can actually solo the low level dungeons without even needing to cast a heal.

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Hmmmm...I don't think so. We're talking apples and oranges. I don't think you would have been able to persuade any player of FFXIV that heals were not needed in the dungeons of ARR when we first encountered them.

Scholar soloing a dungeon in level appropriate gear without a heal? Other than an exceptional player running a very low level dungeon, I don't think so at all.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Hmmmm...I don't think so. We're talking apples and oranges. I don't think you would have been able to persuade any player of FFXIV that heals were not needed in the dungeons of ARR when we first encountered them.

Scholar soloing a dungeon in level appropriate gear without a heal? Other than an exceptional player running a very low level dungeon, I don't think so at all.

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Note that I said not casting a heal. You still have your fairy healing you. All you need to do is dps.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Note that I said not casting a heal. You still have your fairy healing you. All you need to do is dps.

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I still stand by my comment. But to add to this, make it a pre-level 30 dungeon and take the soul stone off.

Healer training guy says you should try weaving an offensive spell when possible. So SE encourages healer dpsing

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I still stand by my comment. But to add to this, make it a pre-level 30 dungeon and take the soul stone off.

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You do know that people regularly do low level dungeons as SCH and never cast a heal, right? The /follow and watch Netflix thing isn't a joke, it's a reality. You don't need to heal in those dungeons. Fairy does it all for you.

Try it sometime.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You do know that people regularly do low level dungeons as SCH and never cast a heal, right? The /follow and watch Netflix thing isn't a joke, it's a reality. You don't need to heal in those dungeons. Fairy does it all for you.

Try it sometime.

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This is also true in the current expert dungeons.

I would like to say to my fellow healers that if we really do not want to take the effort to utilize everything in our arsenal to make things easier on everyone else, especially if everyone else is doing everything in their power to make things easier for us in turn, we really don't have much ground to stand on if the others for some reason decide not to utilize everything in their arsenal for us.

(As in, healers that only heal and then stand around for like 6+ seconds doing nothing else really shouldn't be complaining about ice-only mages, tanks not using cooldowns, and so on.)

Of course there are situations where you can't do anything but heal (like in Sephirot and A5-8), but that's obviously because it'd be too risky to attack. But going on a roulette as a healer where I try to do everything possible within reason, and then switching to DPS for my next roulette to see a healer sort of standing there or jumping around while only casting something once every 10 seconds or so makes me want to chuck my monitor out the window. Bad DPS and tanks don't get a free pass. Why are healers expected to be any different, especially with how easy it is to keep the tank alive with a simple regen in the new dungeons? If anything, this is the perfect time to learn how to stance dance.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Of course there are situations where you can't do anything but heal (like in Sephirot and A5-8), but that's obviously because it'd be too risky to attack..

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It's actually fairly simple to DPS in all of those (assuming you mean 5-8 normal? I haven't been in savage to comment). In A5, I spend nearly 90% of the time in Cleric Stance. In A6 it's probably more like 95%. In A7 more around 50%. In A8 around 75%. In Seph Ex, around 50%.

Is healer DPSing the norm? Big fat NOPE. It is a luxury that really depends on the healer. Both in the healers skill to stance dance and the ability of the group itself to dodge avoidable damage. While a healer I think should strive to do some dmg here and there whenever possible, especially if there's nothing to do, it should NEVER be expected or relied on. This is all outside of a static and raid setting because obviously the rules change there. In general though it is not required and shouldn't be expected and definitely not the norm.



I do feel though the new dungeons are very lax and have plenty of opportunity to DPS. The first time I ran antitower I didn't dps because I kept expecting mobs to drop out of nowhere (I'm very cautious when I do something new) and then I found myself doing nothing for a long time because I kept expecting the other shoe to drop. By the end I was like okay I guess I know I can dps without problems here. It's a very different dungeon.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

You do know that people regularly do low level dungeons as SCH and never cast a heal, right? The /follow and watch Netflix thing isn't a joke, it's a reality. You don't need to heal in those dungeons. Fairy does it all for you.

Try it sometime.

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No, really? So in fact you are not running with little to no healing, you brought the AI healer with you. Your point was that in general for dungeons little to no healing was required. Sure you could delegate the healing to Eos, but since Eos is functionally part of your healing potential as a healer, you are still indirectly healing the party. So actually the dungeon requires healing.

You can say "Note that I said not casting a heal.", but then you can't say that about a dungeon run with a Conjurer, White Mage or Astrologian in the healer role because they do not have a AI healer pet to take over their duties for them. Nor can you say it if your Scholar is trying to run the dungeon without using it's pet.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, really? So in fact you are not running with little to no healing, you brought the AI healer with you. Your point was that in general for dungeons little to no healing was required. Sure you could delegate the healing to Eos, but since Eos is functionally part of your healing potential as a healer, you are still indirectly healing the party. So actually the dungeon requires healing.

You can say "Note that I said not casting a heal.", but then you can't say that about a dungeon run with a Conjurer, White Mage or Astrologian in the healer role because they do not have a AI healer pet to take over their duties for them. Nor can you say it if your Scholar is trying to run the dungeon without using it's pet.

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I have no idea what you're trying to get at. If Eos is doing all the healing, what are you going to do? Stand there? Dance? Watch Netflix? The logical thing to do is dps. This has nothing to do with player skill. It's the only useful thing that the SCH can do in this situation.

The fact that the fairy can deal with all the healing by itself shows just how little healing is required. A CNJ only needs to cast a Cure every 10-20 seconds. What are they going to do the rest of the time?

Healers in dungeons 75% of the time =
Cast Regen; Regen; and Cure II then turn on Netflix; set Eos to passive; turn on regen and lay down some AST heals and buffs some times.

Go on forums complaining about people asking them to DPS:


I really some times wonder what they are actually doing. LOL!

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I have no idea what you're trying to get at.

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I'm trying to get at the point that claiming you don't have to heal in dungeons is BS...

But, hey, whatever. Whether or not you mean to, I see arguments like the one you are pushing as eroding or diminishing the role of healer.

Taking a discussion about whether healer dps in dungeons is the new norm and instead questioning whether healing is needed at all is ridiculous IMHO. If that's your attitude to healing, maybe you should ask yourself why you even list Conjurer as your main class?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm trying to get at the point that claiming you don't have to heal in dungeons is BS...

But, hey, whatever. Whether or not you mean to, I see arguments like the one you are pushing as eroding or diminishing the role of healer.

Taking a discussion about whether healer dps in dungeons is the new norm and instead questioning whether healing is needed at all is ridiculous IMHO. If that's your attitude to healing, maybe you should ask yourself why you even list Conjurer as your main class?

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Aero III/Aero II and Stone II+Holy are amazing for damage.

Holy is also a stun; so it reduces the damage the tank can take from trash.

For mass pulling; putting on Regens, then switching to Cleric Stance and casting Aero III, holy and Stone II adds a LOT of dps to the fight for little uptime and you can go back and cast your heals again.

Healer AOE dps is NOT to be underestimated.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm trying to get at the point that claiming you don't have to heal in dungeons is BS...

But, hey, whatever. Whether or not you mean to, I see arguments like the one you are pushing as eroding or diminishing the role of healer.

Taking a discussion about whether healer dps in dungeons is the new norm and instead questioning whether healing is needed at all is ridiculous IMHO. If that's your attitude to healing, maybe you should ask yourself why you even list Conjurer as your main class?

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I'm not questioning, I'm asserting. And I never said "healing is not needed at all". I said extremely little healing is required.

I'm not diminishing the role of healer. I'm stating what healer is like in this game. If you want it to change, be my guest, argue that it should be changed. I'd even support that. But in the game's current state, very little healing is required in dungeons with the exception of excessively large pulls (which you are also against).

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Bad DPS ... don't get a free pass.

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this is hardly true at all. i'd say probably 30% of total DPS players are playing optimally. Healer's main role is to heal, so if they're doing that, no one wants to be the guy ragging on the healer for "not DPSing" enough, when the DPSes themselves have *nothing* else to do. You can survive a fight without the healer DPS'ing, chances are you can't without the DPS DPSing. Not saying healers *shouldn't* deal damage, but really are probably a lot more important things you could be concerned about most of the time, especially in DF groups..

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Originally Posted by Igziabeher

this is hardly true at all. i'd say probably 30% of total DPS players are playing optimally.

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That is rather generous

A healer's DPS can account for say, 15% of the group's DPS if not more if you're playing the role well. But letting the tank fall that low is kind of risky.

Hell, I thought healer DPS has been the norm for a long time. I think the new content is allowing it to happen more.

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Originally Posted by Jatoi

A healer's DPS can account for say, 15% of the group's DPS if not more if you're playing the role well. But letting the tank fall that low is kind of risky.

Hell, I thought healer DPS has been the norm for a long time. I think the new content is allowing it to happen more.

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Since the new patch hit, I am usually ~30%, (25-35 depending on the quality of the DPS I am paired with), in expert roulette.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm not questioning, I'm asserting. And I never said "healing is not needed at all". I said extremely little healing is required.

I'm not diminishing the role of healer. I'm stating what healer is like in this game. If you want it to change, be my guest, argue that it should be changed. I'd even support that. But in the game's current state, very little healing is required in dungeons with the exception of excessively large pulls (which you are also against).

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I'm not against large pulls as long as a) everyone is geared, and b) everyone agrees to that method.

I'd definitely argue that there is change needed both to reinforce the role of healer, and fix the situation that requires Tanks and DPS to be doing something all the time, but allows the healer to pick their lottery numbers between heals.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I really some times wonder what they are actually doing. LOL!

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When I play with healers who don't DPS, this is what they do: Just wait for any small damage and cast heal immediately. I don't really want to assume that they watch Netflix. I think big problem with those majority of healers are that they can't play aggresively (fast on and off stance dance). When they pick healer role, they have only 1 thing in mind and it's to heal. We have to give those guys are credit for doing their job. But like so many players already pointed out. Healer = not only heal. First of all, this is a FF game series and healers are tent to be offensive in many games. So ultimate goal for any tanker, DPSer as well as healers would be to play their character to fullest. I feel very stupid that we have to answer everyone's question who say I get yelled here and forced there. Those people need to use their mind at some point.

Healers are already struggling with accuracy checks, they can hit a few times now if they actually meld +acc materia but I doubt that is the devs design choice for healers.

Just wait till next patch or something when you need 750+ acc to even land a basic spell, then this thread will dissapear as the healers will not be able to hit a single dungeon or raid mob even if they meld acc in every single materia slot.

Cleric stance was designed to help healers level, not to carry awful dps.

And imo, it should be removed while in a group because the healers job is meant to heal, and the tanks job is meant to tank, hence the changes to tank dmg, healers are next, do your job properly or play a dps.

Can't count how many times I've seen wipes in basic dungeons because the healer thought there 1k crits meant something, left cleric on, and wiped the group, bad design and it needs correcting immediately.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Since the new patch hit, I am usually ~30%, (25-35 depending on the quality of the DPS I am paired with), in expert roulette.

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Btw, this is so important here also.. This word "quality" plays important role in the game. WHM is the best AoE DPS job out of 3 healers, AST only has gravity, but can throw in some buffs. Sch has only DoT AoE, but single target DoT and weak single target damage. So all healers are different. You can combine any random tanker/healer/DPS and depends on how skilled those players are, we will see big difference in party speed. If everyone cared about each other and understood what they can do with their class and how to strategize their tactics.. There will be not a single complaint today.

Without getting into the "Should healer's DPS debate" as I've made my post / position clear back on page 2... I just wanted to touch on this massive misconception:

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Healers are already struggling with accuracy checks, they can hit a few times now if they actually meld +acc materia but I doubt that is the devs design choice for healers.

Just wait till next patch or something when you need 750+ acc to even land a basic spell, then this thread will dissapear as the healers will not be able to hit a single dungeon or raid mob even if they meld acc in every single materia slot.

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http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/46530027.jpg

You need approximately 460-470 Accuracy to hit current EXDR content. I get 444 just melding T4 accuracy in 10 out of the 18 guaranteed slots available to new i220+ Midas / Lore gear.

A4S required approximately 540 accuracy and A8S is estimated to be in the 600 accuracy range. 600 Accuracy is actually do able in i240 gear, full T5 Accuracy Melds, and Food. Thanks to Materia Melds, this has been the only time in the game where Healers can maintain ilvl cap and hit accuracy cap which is interesting to see.

Going by this trend we can probably expected 670 accuracy required to hit A12S. Still quite doable with two Penta Melded accessories with T4 accuracy on the overmeld slots.

And the accuracy issue (at this time) isn't as terrible as you think it is. Having an 80-85% hit rate in current EXDR is annoying at most and "not the end of the world". It is cause of concern for future content but not to the exaggerated degree of needing 750+ accuracy to hit stuff in casual content.

I can only speak as a low level schoolar and this is how I feel personally and it might differ from how people but dear [deity], Eos is such a healing machine that I can't imagine using it and not pretty much full time dpsing at levelling dungeons as long as the tank uses their cooldowns. I think I only had one instance where I had to stop dpsing because the tank pulled like 10 mobs in Brayflox which is of course something that you will have to heal. I don't usually watch what healers do and this is my first attempt at a healing class in any MMO but there is just so much downtime in need for healing that what could you possibly do in meantime? I actually get a bigger urge to dps as a healer than I do as a dps class. As long as everyone is avoiding the AoEs with tells a healer really doesn't have much to do from what I gather.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Since the new patch hit, I am usually ~30%, (25-35 depending on the quality of the DPS I am paired with), in expert roulette.

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See? That's why I don't see why healer DPS is a bad thing. It's all about timing too and I've seen people who are against the concept and still, I can't understand why...

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Originally Posted by Jatoi

See? That's why I don't see why healer DPS is a bad thing. It's all about timing too and I've seen people who are against the concept and still, I can't understand why...

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Indeed. In a 24 minute run, we are in combat for approximately 22.5 minutes of that, so let's say no matter what you have that 1.5 minutes + Combat time.

If I didn't DPS, then the time would be 1.5 + 22.5 x 1/0.7 = 33.6 minutes. That's pretty substantial.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Can't count how many times I've seen wipes in basic dungeons because the healer thought there 1k crits meant something, left cleric on, and wiped the group, bad design and it needs correcting immediately.

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I hate to burst your bubble, but your story is irrelevant. It's like black mages who screwed up his rotation and wasted all mana on flare then failed DPS check. SE encourage healers to perform damage when it's possible. They gave WHM Aero3 and Assize because they specialized in AoE damage and heal. SE also planning to add +15/+18 materials and something more unique. If you can read Japanese, SE already said that their current plan is to balance every jobs. 1st, remove STR from tankers, make accuracy higher = while providing material choice. Whatever it's next, it won't be a CS removal. Just give it some time and you will see.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Can't count how many times I've seen wipes in basic dungeons because the healer thought there 1k crits meant something, left cleric on, and wiped the group, bad design and it needs correcting immediately.

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This is a horrible way to back up a point. I could make a claim like:

"Can't count how many times I've seen a wipe because the DPS didn't know their rotations and caused us to wipe. Bad design needs correcting immediately"

Then go on to say due to my experience clearly parsers should now be mandatory and that if you don't get a certain dps number then the game locks you out of stuff till you do.

Does that make sense? No of course not >.<.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Then go on to say due to my experience clearly parsers should now be mandatory and that if you don't get a certain dps number then the game locks you out of stuff till you do.

Does that make sense? No of course not >.<.

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isnt that already the case ? yeah it is, look at all the people using unwanted parsers that get rid of whoever is not meeting the DPS check ? yeah is already being done.

Making sense no, but is done on a daily basis though..not sure what your point is...so yeah some stuff in here is silly beyond words...but people do silly things reglularly especially when it comes to point fingers at othrs and their abilities of playing this game. Making sense ? no but is still a reality.

Bad design is to allow cleric stance altogether in a dungeon, cleric stance only if you are soloing stuff in open world out of dungeons or groups, yes then yes I would agree. But as long as cleric stance exists we will have exchange of views between people that regards healers dpsing as THE thing to do if not they deserve a kick, making sense ? no but is done regularly...yes?

This topic has been used re-used --spoken upside down backwards and forwards...point is ...we have cleric stance and healers can use, the *should they* is totally depending on THEM and not what others want them to do..in my opinion

So what, healers should idle when there is nothing to heal?

Say what you will, but you're not doing your class any justice if you limit yourself to 4 or 5 skills out of 12.