Oh, because it was a legal right at one time for anyone to partake in, then a few leaders decided to take peoples' right to partake, to the point that those same leaders were forced to back out of the policy change and return things back to the way they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
Yeah... Incredible comparison.
/sarcasm
-
03-06-2015, 12:43 PMDuuude007
-
03-06-2015, 12:52 PMBishop81The results are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
Gangsters/RMT got rich, despite the authorities' best efforts at wiping them out. Do you want those bastards to continue making money like they have over the last decades?
Principles are great and all, but results are what matter. -
03-06-2015, 01:05 PMnuyu11
After read all the post,
It's make me laugh and think a bit...
Population Rich Player are less than normal player because not all player have the gift to get the Gil from market or doing business and mass a fortune. All the normal player get their Gil from normal content.
Some of the player agree for this idea because they thought it could save their real money and play for free, well it could be true if you are from Rich Player category, if not for sure later you will come to this forum and crying for regret.
People play this this game because it's a Pay to Play, for those who disagree for sure will leave this game, they don't want to pay for others. They believe Pay to Play is fair play style and have a solid content, well it's proven and that's why I play WoW and now trying to move to FF14.
I just disagree with this idea but I'm not mad for those who agreed, everyone have their own opinion and view.
In this game I'm considered poor player.
I have a friends in WoW that totally happy with token systems, that token price might be around 40-50k each.
So far his highest earn are about 20k Gold and I have 20mil unused, for 1 year sub it only cost about 500k.
For me this is bit unfair for normal player who enjoy playing normally, some player love to gain fortune, but some only for Raids and some for vanity.
Better wait WoW result and see how Blizzard handle it, or it might end up like Diablo III auction house or WoW Guardian Cub Pet. -
03-06-2015, 11:41 PMTiggyLol, what a straw man. If you think those extra two retainers make people fortunes then you have a really large misunderstanding of what those retainers are capable of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
-
03-06-2015, 11:49 PMMagisOut of SE's control, and you know what happens to those who buy gil? They risk getting perma-banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
Wonder how many gil buyers are in this thread...
Also lol at the people saying SE should do it cause Blizzard is. The company who hasn't made a good expansion since TBC or WotLK depending who you ask. This is the same company who just released a "content patch" that consisted of new blood elf models (which was suppose to be in the expansion release) and...... a selfie maker. Now I am hearing rumors that 2 patches in there won't be any content till next expansion... lol if true. Blizzard can afford to lose half it's peak subscriber base (around 6 million lost lol), or 800K in a few months over bad ideas, SE not so much. Stop with the stupid notion that SE should copy everything Blizzard is doing... they hit gold with the original WoW and TBC, and it has been slowly bleeding since then. Heck, just look at all these comparisons people bring up... Wildstar and Tera: MMOs that failed and went F2P or shutdown. But no, we should copy all these idea bankrupt games cause getting gil is too hurd.
I think it was the Activision - Blizzard merger that killed the game and turned it into what it is now. It makes so much sense where all the shitty business practices came from. -
03-06-2015, 11:54 PMDererk
No
Just no to this whole thing there's no need for it.
Nope none nada
If your playing tour already paying so there's no excuse for people using the words poor rich or what ever. -
03-06-2015, 11:56 PMMageBlackThen let this thread quietly die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dererk
-
03-07-2015, 12:01 AMDuuude007Would you want SE to dishonor their status as a successful MMO producer by supporting the same money making scheme they are? Really? I sure as hell wouldn't. This is their flagship game, the key reason their company was able to be profitable the past couple years. And your suggestion is for them to betray our trust by doing exactly what they are combating others from doing... right. Genius.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" isn't merely the abandonment of principle, it is symbolic of a company caring more about the bottom line than their customers. Yoshida has time and time again inferred that he would rather the game be shuttered than betray our trust to the level of 1.0 (or worse) once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
And you speak of results. Sure, the development team is working on a more effective means to prevent the spamming of ads through tells, and when that is managed, a great deal of their potential business will have been mitigated. But that isn't all that they are doing. By far.
http://i.imgur.com/v6zOPd6.png
I would rather them fight the good fight than pull a Benedict Arnold. I am certain I am not alone in this. -
03-07-2015, 12:08 AMBishop81No, it's called being pragmatic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
The fact that it will hurt RMT is even more awesome.
Feel free to be principled in your fantasyland, we here in the real world want solutions. PLEX is the lesser of 2 evils. The less money in the hands of those bastard RMTs, the better. -
03-07-2015, 12:17 AMDuuude007You keep claiming this as fact. Most of what I seen here has been anecdotal at best. Being applied to a completely different game design using entirely different scenarios, at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
If you have something 'factual' to challenge us with, perhaps some citations to back up the 'stories' your... 'majority' is trying to sell us. -
03-07-2015, 12:21 AMAldoraBut it’s still “Evil” nonetheless. If you want to battle RMT, you will not be doing so by “legalizing” it. It’s because of people that are buying gil that the whole RMT business exists in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
By adding a “PLEX”-system, you are basically “giving up” the fight and “joining them”. At that point the RMT business has won the battle. -
03-07-2015, 12:24 AMBishop81Elementary my dear ... Duuude007.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
A PLEX type system basically allows anyone to be a gil seller. When you buy a game-time token and pay for it in gil, you are effectively selling gil. The more sellers of gil there are, the lower the price of gil. RMT earns less.
Right now RMT has a monopoly on RL money to gil conversion. With a PLEX system, their monopoly will be broken.
Anything that will screw over those RMT spamming bastards is a positive in my book. -
03-07-2015, 12:27 AMtocsinHonestly, what battle do you think the RMT is fighting? they fight to make money to profit ourselves. if SE takes up a PLEX system, then WE win, because that money will be going towards SE, to make the game better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldora
I have always been in support of a PLEX system, and will continue to be so. Pay to win may not be a 100% win, but if they win, and I win too (by getting a better game) im okay with that. Their winning doesn't affect me, but PLEX makes ME win, whether I buy it or not. -
03-07-2015, 12:27 AMBishop81I don't see the world in such black and white terms as "evil" and "good".Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldora
I pick the solution that provide the best possible outcome.
Anything that screws over the spamming RMT, reducing my spam, is positive from my point of view.
People are going to buy gil whether you or SE want them to or not - how else did you think those RMT companies survive for so long. This is a fact that you must accept. This is reality. -
03-07-2015, 12:31 AMDuuude007Uh, huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
So, where is the 'fact' you speak of, again? -
03-07-2015, 12:33 AMBishop81You don't understand what "anecdotal evidence" means do you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
What I have written isn't "evidence". It's an argument.
LOL. I see I have been wasting my time. No point, conversing with someone who can't even tell the difference between evidence and an argument. -
03-07-2015, 12:37 AMMilesSaintboroguh
People say this new system would put all that RMT money in the hands of Square to "make the game better", yet aren't same few people are also against a cash shop that....would also give Square more money to make more content for the game?
-
03-07-2015, 12:41 AMDuuude007This has been my point all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
-
03-07-2015, 12:42 AMTiggyWell you DID quote this..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
So it seems pretty obvious you were trying to offer non anecdotal evidence since he was specifically asking for some evidence that wasn't anecdotal. Then you feel free to asnwer with what you then defend as an "arguement"? Why even respond if you aren't going to give him the info he was asking for? Are you surprised he pointed out it was still anecdotal? It's like you didn't even read what he said at all, and specifically that you don't seem to understand what Anecdotal Evidence means. Have a read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
It describes much of the support for a Plex system in this thread rather well. By definition this thread is riddled with anecdotal evidence. I've made attempts to ask for evidence and supporting data but they have been consistently ignored in favor of spouting further anecdotal evidence.Quote:
The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a generalized claim; it is, however, perfectly acceptable for claims regarding a particular instance
This was literally the point he was making. GG. Too many people in this thread arguing opinions. Not enough evidence. I don't care about your opinion. I care about where this has worked before, how well, and why you think it would work better or as well here. I could literally care less about your opinion. Facts are all I want to work in. Actual tangible examples of real life data. However, that seems difficult for people in this thread to produce because as far as I can tell it doesn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
-
03-07-2015, 12:43 AMBishop81Cash shop, I can do without, shutting it down doesn't have any effect - except for SE bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
PLEX? Without = RMT run wild and make money. With = RMT make a lot less money = me happy.
It's a necessary evil in a way. I really wish we didn't have to resort to things like PLEX but it seems better than the status quote.
If you have other idea with regards to combating RMT, feel free to speak out. If there is a better way, I'm all for it.
I'm telling you how and why it will work. Not presenting with you with an example of it working.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
Perhaps discussions of this sort is beyond your mental capabilities.
See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
-
03-07-2015, 12:48 AMTiggyYou've once again supplied nothing but anecdotal evidence and personal opinion You spouting your opinions are not fact or evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
-
03-07-2015, 12:50 AMMagisExcept you have no proof of that. EVE still had ISK spammers with PLEX so it didn't do jack shit. Now, they began implementing filters and easier ways to report them which SHOCK is a better way to fight RMT. Reporting a bot was an easy right click and selecting "Report ISK Seller". If enough people did it, the person was muted and flagged for review.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
AHAHAHAHAHA, sorry let us bask in your intelligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...16/511/f06.gif
People ask for tangible evidence, poster says they are stupid... lol wut. -
03-07-2015, 12:53 AMBishop81I never claimed it a be all and all solution. But it's reasonable to conclude that it will hurt RMT spammers, which is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
Filters are of course still need. A Bayes spam filter will go a long way.
Oh please, if he wants to play "games" with me, I will play.Quote:
AHAHAHAHAHA, sorry let us bask in your intelligence.
I'm quite sure he can tell an argument from evidence. But if he is going to pretend he can't, so will I.
So you want to play too heh.Quote:
People ask for tangible evidence, poster says they are stupid... lol wut.
Tell you want, you explain to me why my argument is wrong.
Where is the fault - if any?Quote:
A PLEX type system basically allows anyone to be a gil seller. When you buy a game-time token and pay for it in gil, you are effectively selling gil. The more sellers of gil there are, the lower the price of gil. RMT earns less.
Right now RMT has a monopoly on RL money to gil conversion. With a PLEX system, their monopoly will be broken.
Anything that will screw over those RMT spamming bastards is a positive in my book.
If my premises are correct and my argument is vaild, the the conclusion must follow. -
03-07-2015, 12:55 AMScarletDawn
Also don't forget what lowering the value of gil will do to markets. And don't say there wont be any gil generated, using plex gives RMT the best way to farm gil, use your money to buy plex to gain gil to sell back to you....
This is a win win for RMTs. -
03-07-2015, 12:57 AMAldoraQuote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
One word? “Influence”.
No. “We” can only win if game time is not purchasable through in-game currency. “We” can only win by not buying gil from RMT with real money.
I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldora
By introducing a “grey” solution like “PLEX” you are only introducing more means for illicit activities like RMT to flourish by not just expanding our horizon, but theirs as well. Creating more loop-holes to be abused by others. And i’m not just talking about RMT either. Ow, and believe me… If people get the chance (RMT or no), people will abuse systems like “PLEX”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
And trust me, i know fully well that RMT will never go away. As long as there are people buying in-game currency with real money, there will always be RMT around the corner who will make full use of that opportunity. But, “legalizing” it is not the way to go.
RMT is a bannable offence and thus has to be punished. You buy gil? You suffer the consequence. Period.
The only wish i have is that SE hunts them down faster. Have a GM stand in each zone of the game and the second they see an RMT shout or receives one through tell, let the ban hammer fly. They can even suspend them until the internal investigation of their illicit activities/RMT Advertising has concluded.
RMT should not be tolerated and addressed with a firm hand. Not be “challenged” by introducing your own “Legal RMT”. -
03-07-2015, 01:01 AMAlexionSkylark
All of you P2W naysayers should just put your hands over your heads and think...
People WITH MORE FREE TIME say: It's OK for people with more free time to have an advantage in the game.
People WITH MORE FREE TIME say: It's NOT OK for people with more money IRL to have an advantage in the game.
Like I said... it's all about mantaining your priviledges, huh? -
03-07-2015, 01:02 AMBishop81I think you are confused. It lowers the value of gil in terms of RL money.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletDawn
What? How did they get their hands on my money?Quote:
use your money to buy plex to gain gil to sell back to you....
Oh you mean their money. So they spend their money ($15) to buy PLEX, trade it for gil (said, 1m gil), then sell the gil for money (>$15; has to be if they want to turn a profit) ... But why would someone pay >$15 for the 1m gil when they can just buy a PLEX ($15) and get the same 1m gil - the RMTer bought it for that amount of gil remember.
OK. I can accept this line of argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldora
That said, RMT will continue to flourish though with their monopoly over RL money to gil conversions.
ヽ（´ー｀）┌ -
03-07-2015, 01:08 AMAldoraProgression/Advancement is defined by ones effort, not by ones wallet.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
Thank you. That’s all i’m asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
It’s ok to have a difference in opinion. You’ve voiced yours and i’ve voiced mine. (^_^ )
With that i shall wish you all a pleasant day and take my leave, since i’ve said all i wanted to say about this subject. /bow -
03-07-2015, 01:10 AMTiggyKeep trying to make assumptions about people. Do it enough and you might eventually get it right. Until then keep your assumptions and insults to yourself. You aren't helping your side at all. All you're doing is showing how you can't debate a point like an adult.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
-
03-07-2015, 01:10 AMDuuude007
More anecdotes, no relevant facts supporting the plex argument.
Why would anyone buy into this snake oil is beyond me. -
03-07-2015, 01:10 AMMagisWell, shutting down the game would also hurt RMT, but no need to cut your nose off to spite your face. The risk to the game is a bigger threat than some RMT spam which could be killed using conventional anti-spam measures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
What? Evidence isn't a substitute for an argument, it is used to back up your argument. If you can't back it up, then it's meaningless conjure based on your personal opinion. If you want to argue that this would kill or damage RMT without breaking the games system, then show some evidence of it happening in other MMOs. The only example I (and I am sure you) can think of is EVE Online... a game that was planned and built around PLEX. This is not the case for games like Tera and Wildstar which have failed or gone F2P (a failure point of an MMO in most people's book anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
Uhhh, wut? Yes, people who put more effort into playing the game get more back, WOW SUCH A NEW AND REVOLUTIONARY CONCEPT! If you don't have enough time cause of your TWO JOBS!1!1!!! then maybe MMORPG's are not for you. Or better yet, realize that you don't actually "need" everything in the game. This isn't a single player game where you can get 100% completion or something. SE even goes out of their way to cater to your playstyle (as much as dislike it) when most content can be completed relatively quickly, they nerf content, and basically make all gear worthless every patch cycle so you never fall too far behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
I wonder if this is the problem here. That a lot of non-MMO players bring their single player game mindset into MMOs and then are shocked when they can't get 100% in everything. -
03-07-2015, 01:17 AMTiggyExactly. They won't supply evidence and then we get insulted for asking for some. Looking at you AlexionSkylark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
That's why I keep saying people are arguing opinion. Because they refuse to back it up with evidence. -
03-07-2015, 01:17 AMKayoZFor the 100th time, it doesnt hurt them at all. They will still spam, they will still bot, still hack and steal gil, and still make plenty of profits. In fact this may even help them out even more. Sure, some people will buy from SE now to lower the risk, but SE will never be able to compete. There is a limit on how much gil players are willing to buy game time with, and SE cannot sell this "token" for any less than the price of a sub (well, the can but there is no point). All this does is legalize it and get even more players buying gold on both ends. Maybe even get the illegal RMT to double there efforts to entice players with even more annoying ads, get players to buy more from them with lower prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop81
No game that has tried this has stopped them or even helped the situation at all. Not Eve, not Wildstar, none! All it does is fill both pockets with more money, make players more dependent on buying gold to make their gil instead of increasing supply through crafting or actual gameplay. As much as I expect todays "gamers" to be perfectly ok to throwing money at a game to actually play less of it... just admit that and be done with it. Claiming that this is a good thing thatll stick it to those mean gold sellers that have been hacking and annoying us for years now, is dishonest and proven false. -
03-07-2015, 01:18 AMAlexionSkylark
I'm not making assumptions, I'm merely stating what I read in those 27 pages.
And yes, I find it really funny how one advantage is accepted while the other is not. -
03-07-2015, 01:21 AMMilesSaintboroguh
Here's the main issue:
People think the only way to combat RMT is to give "legal" alternatives, which would also get abused by RMT. What Square needs to do is make it harder for RMT to get in touch with players. Right now, we have zero customization for communications; we can't have tells filtered to friends only, we can't auto reject friend requests, etc. Let people filter who can send them tells and let people decide whether or not they want friend requests open. Those two methods of communication is what RMT uses a lot aside from shouts. Make those harder to go through and you made it harder for RMT to get through to people. -
03-07-2015, 01:21 AMTiggyUntil you supply evidence it's an assumption and an opinion. Others agreeing with you is simply confirmation bias. It is not proof. And since it's a suggestion you guys are pushing then burden of proof to show it works falls squarely on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
Simply put talk is cheap. Find evidence and prove it. Otherwise you're words have about as much meaning as a drop of water in the ocean. Just another opinion in the endless pool if internet opinions.
If you think square is going to add this to the game without the kind of substantial proof like what we are looking for then you are deluded. If you can't even prove it to us why do you think Square will even listen? If you want to prove the point that your idea will work THEN ACTUALLY PROVE IT. This would be a considerable time/money investment from Square. This isn't something small and flippant or even easy, and you expect everyone to just trust you? Do you really think it's that simple? If you do that says a lot about your understanding of how software development and large companies like this operate. -
03-07-2015, 01:29 AMSynestraWell he kinda have a point as with 80 selling slots you have the potential to crash sertain item prices with mass flooding, when undercutting war starts buy everything then withdraw your flood items and skyrocket prices again. This might not work when doing alone but if you have a "cartel" then its alot easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
-
03-07-2015, 01:29 AMScarletDawn
How does Bishop not understand how EvE works? You balance inflation with deflation ( ships being PERMANENTLY REMOVED FROM GAME) The bold part is the key here.
In FF14 we have very very weak money sinks, MB taxs us, teleporting takes very small amount. Repair are minor. List is endless, but there is no 1mil+ money sinks nothing to sap gil from players accounts like there is in EvE when that shiny new carrier costing 2 bil just blew up on ur screen, that is 2 bil in value gone from ur account. 2 bil you probably plexed to gain.
OP just wants a system to abuse the crafting and make easy money, while freeloading off those paying for the game. -
03-07-2015, 01:35 AMMagisThe only big money sink I can think of is housing but that has a limited amount of money that get's drained once everything fills.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletDawn
-
03-07-2015, 01:38 AMAlexionSkylarkWait, what exactly do I have to prove?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
My point here is really, really simple: There's nothing inherently wrong with giving people with less free time the opportunity for them to participate in content they're denied of (housing, crafting). And I'm calling out those elitists who think are entitled to their exclusivity just because they spent more time playing.
Why does that need "proving"?