Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firon

As the title says Red Mage is not a back line class I hope it's not when they implement it.

I know a lot of folks who want this class/job, I also know many more people who don't this job to be standing in the back with the white mage casting cure. In XI this class was hit or miss with a lot of folks some quit the class cause they were criticized for melee, thus in turn could play the class the way they wanted.

I have a few idea's that could help stop this from happening in this game as well.

1. Make RDM attack spells cost tp.

2. Make support spells like en-fire and such cost mp but gain more effectiveness when the caster has more than 1k tp.

3. Let Red mage combo into spells. Ex: Poison Thrust > Silence Thrust > Fira(Single target for Red mage).

That's all i could think of for now if you have any other idea's so Red Mage wont get stuck in a back line position like in XI. Please give some feedback, or suggestions.

I really don't want to see this class to feel like an Pure Mage again.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

When they brought out Dancer I thought "Yes this is what Red Mage is actually supposed to be like"

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I think you hit the nail on the head with Combos.

If they make RDM combos a WS > Spell > WS or any combination like that, it will instantly solve the FFXI Problem.

I hope and pray every night they don't mess this up..

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

F no. My RDM better be a sword wielding enfeeble/buff machine!

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Originally Posted by viion

Yes!!! meleee mage, blu idm

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I generally agree that RDM needs a different party play focus that it's FFXI incarnation.

RDM is traditionally a jack-of-all-trades job that also specializes in multi/rapid spell casting.

The OP's melee-magic combo idea is a very good idea. If they really want to make RDM a front-line caster, adding an additional TP cost to all RDM spells would go far in defining that role.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Quit meleein' and refresh the mages.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

This problem would never happen if you were a Red Wizard.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

Love these ideas. I really hope they do allow for the red mage to have spells and abilities that require TP like you said. I think you're on the right path.

With how XIV is setup so far, they could really add a lot of fun and change up the style (from XI) in XIV. Debuff/Buff > WS > party cure/ > WS etc... Could be fun.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

For a melee to use WS > WS > Spell requires a lot of standing in one place.

Unless you make it WS > Spell (combo effect is no cast time)

I do like the idea of mixing TP skills and Mana skills together though.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

I'd love to be a red mage, I never took it very far in XI regretfully. I've heard all the red mage angst though and I do hope their role is better this time around. Dancer and blue mage were a lot of fun as well, red mage should feel they kick butt like those jobs did.

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Originally Posted by KiniRyris

Yes and Yes! I never played a lot of red mage in FFXI because of this. FFXI-RDM had some cool spells that boosted melee attacks but were never used in party play.

I totally agree that RDM combos should include melee+spell actions, great thought! And i kinda like the idea of attack spells costing TP, but i think it should cost both TP and MP, but a small amount of TP. Something like 250-500 TP and 100 MP. Free TP when used in a combo.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

The question is would en-spells be single target, self cast or AoE ?

I would quite like the idea of AoE buffs myself, what do you guys think ?

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Originally Posted by Tahldon

I wonder what they'd make Red Mage's 15Min spell be? I'd love for it to be Re-Raise...

Honestly though, Red Mage would be in an interesting position due to the fact that it's a "Jack of all trades, master of none" type of deal. I pretty much expect them to let Red Mages use White/Black Mage spells, but due to the restrictive number of abilities a class can have, I'm wondering how many weaponskills the class would get.

Having to split the skills of a Red Mage through melee attacks and Magics (Debuffs and buffs) along with self buffs (IE: Dual Cast, Sabotur, etc), I can forsee a lot of things missing from the class. Also, factor in the fact that there can be up to like, five skills brought over from WHM and BLM, that'll be a pretty tight bar with nothing that actually dedicates the class to anything, but I guess that's the point, huh.

OP does make a good point though, although, because of the Red Mage's versatility, they've been doomed with having lower stats and things, so to have a melee in there trying to duke it out along side the melees could prove fatal what with how mages are squishy and all. I expect the Red mage to be as about as tough as a BRD to an extent health-wise.

Still though... I'm kind of boggled on how many skills the class would be able to have... what? 20 Arcanist skills split through Buffs, Debuffs, Melee Weaponskills, and Self Enhancing skills? Then 5 Red Mage skills after that? Plus the 5 cross-class abilities. That's just going to be awkward and, seemingly, all over the place. And not to mention that WHM already has Chainspell... so what then?

Eh... this is kind of making me tired thinking about it. I just want Red Mage to be really good and useful in this game... _-_

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Originally Posted by Firon

I think That would be cool. I have another idea i just thought of. Ws > Ws > double cast (skill) > cast the finisher spell 2 times(both get the combo bonus).

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Originally Posted by Firon

They could add all the debuffs on WS like i used in the example. Since a RDM uses melee and magic why not just combine them :)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I would much prefer the red mage had its own unique spells, give it water spells or something.

The main class is most likely going to be fencer if they still plan to use that class.

I don't think we should be saying RDM is BLM/WHM, I would much prefer it to be just a battle mage, so fencer with water spells, enspells, and elemental weaponskills.

Allow it use cross class skills from THM and CNJ.

Sacred Prism + Enfire. <3

16 skills/ws
Water

Waterga

Enfire

Enwater

Enthunder

Enstone

Enblizzard

Poison Slash - Umbral based weapons skill + chance to inflict poison

Burning Blade - Fire based weapon skill + chance to inflict burn

Quick Slash - Lightning based weapon skill + chance to inflict stun

Cyclone - Wind based weapon skill + chance to inflict bleed/choke

Shining Strike - Astral based weapon skill + chance to inflict dia

Terrastrike - Earth bases weapon skill + chance to inflict rasp

Shatter - Ice based weapon skill + chance to inflict frost

Torrent - Water based weapon skill + chance to inflict drown

15 min skill ??

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

Wat? I thought RDM was just supposed to be a swordsman with debuffing spells only?

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Originally Posted by Firon

No that's what FF 11 thought rdm should be, rdm has never really been Debuffer it just had a little of everything. Some folks need to remember that FF 11 is not the whole FF Franchise.

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

Swear to God... someone tells me to stop meleeing.. I'll never ever ever ever ever ever EVER use RDM in a pt. Just like I did in FFXI. RDM was my solo job thanks to people who refused to let me melee on RDM

Hm... I dunno I've only gotten to play 6, 7, 8, 11, and now 14

And my bad I meant to say debuff/enhance.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Nah RDM lore in all the games were a highly diversified class that wielded roughly 3/4th - 4/5ths the power of normal classes but had the ability to use participate in combat and use both schools of magic. FFXI's RDM however went through a series of changes in the early pre-RotZ age, and was eventually rebuilt with it's core purpose as an enfeebler when advanced jobs were first introduced. Unfortunately FFXI's evolution has not been kind to RDM and much of that versatility went underutilized and became underpowered as updates for RDM stagnated.

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Originally Posted by JTSpender

FWIW, if you took the most recent player's poll, it sounds like they might have a general concept for the RDM. One of the options from the "what new classes do you want" question was "A new type of magic-user that uses enfeebling magic and close-range attacks. (ex. Red Mage, etc.)".

I find it unlikely that from a game mechanic perspective they're going to fit what people imagine as a traditional Final Fantasy RDM "jack-of-all-trades" (as a career RDM or hybrid class player, I hate hate hate that term) which is going to melee and cast both Cure and Fire. It's possible, but... that's how FFXI's RDM ended up where they ended up.

And in general, doing hybrids well in MMOs and having them not either be strictly worse than bringing a dedicated class or totally OP because they can do everything is really hard. Hybrids work well in games with small groups but when you start getting to large-group content stuff kinda goes out the window. You can sort of pull it off by either having state-based hybrids (see Scholar from FFXI or Druid from WoW) or cheat by giving them something absolutely necessary (lolRefresh) or a totally different role in large group play (crowd control is one example).

All that said, like a lot of people I would totally love to see something that looked a lot like Dancer, which used one set of abilities to build up a resource which gets expended with a different kind of ability. Honestly, as long as there is the base flavor of having something that looks like fencer-y melee skills (these may or may not actually be real, TP-using weapon skills) lead into something that looks like magey spells (which may or may not be real, MP using spells) I will be happy. Frankly, even if the only magic they get at all is debuff spells I'm fine with that; I'd much much rather they err on the side of magic-fencer flavor than jack-of-all-trades flavor.

My only other big concern is how they solve the itemization problem so they don't end up being magic fencers in stupid mage robes all the time.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

You could have them wear Bliaud and Gaskins, I think that would suit a RDM more than a full on robe.

Just have the robes unfavourable to RDM/Fencer.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

OP you are right. RDM should have been what BLU was in FFXI. RDM in the other FF's is front line, can wear heavy/medium armors..can dish out good damage and help backup with some spells while BLU usually had light armor and was always back row doing stuff to support the party and it had some good spells like BLM type.

I REALLLLY hope they don't ruin RDM like they did in XI in XIV...:(

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Originally Posted by Tahldon

Yeah, I was thinking along these same lines, myself, in terms of what they would wear. The Devs would have a lot of work on their hands though to implement Favorable RDM clothes too, but they're good at that sort of thing so it's no biggie. Although... I do wonder if the primary stat for them would be the "Enfeebling Magic" one, being as though "Healing Magic Potency" is directed towards CNJ/WHM and "Attack Magic Potency" is catered more towards THM/BLM and all.

Seems only right to me, but JT makes a good point. I'd like the class to be more than it was in reference to what people describe it as in FFXI.

(And in case you all haven't noticed, I didn't get knee deep in FFXI as some of you so that's why my questions are a little... naive?)

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Well RDM's do generally have access to all but the heaviest of armors so jerkin, scale, tunic armors would work well too.

If there was going to be a problem with MKT/RDM's main weapon (most likely being Sword types are taken by GLA/PLD) I'd say you could have Epee/Rapier weapons as their own type, and a parrying dagger as an offhand for kind of a dual wield/parry like setup. You could hit like a PLD, but damage would be supplemented by the addition of the dagger to do damage so it would be more speed auto-attack DPS focused than big number WS focused.

Of course my fear is scaling between Sword type weapons vs other DD weapons is growing so it might hurt both jobs badly when the level cap is raised.

But that's just throwing some ideas out there.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea I agree with that, I listed some skills and spells above which i think would be suitable to this class/job, I think the chance to inflict random status on enemies would be pretty sweet for RDM as these have been removed from the game since the battle reform and it would be a nice way to get them back into the game.

So enfeebling could increase the chance for those to land or perhaps the damage per tick or something.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

The solution is actually really really really simple. Do not give Red Mage BLM/WHM spells. What I mean is, a RDM can have access to THM/Cnj abilities (like PLD has access to cnj moves), but thats it. RDM job spells should all be enfeebles/melee stuff. Of course with the changes to CC SE might have to get creative with certain moves, so RDM can do something besides poison spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Aye maybe WS-> WS-> Spell

RDM might only have one combo for the front and two for the back, but any Enfeeble could be cast with any of the combos and depending on which combo pattern you use would affect the Combo Bonus on the Enfeeble cast.

Combo Bonus for spells could be like.
-Combo Setup 1: Increases Enfeebling Potency/Duration Massively
-Combo Setup 2: Damages Enemy (element of spell cast would vary based on Enfeeble but comparable to Thunder in damage)
-Combo Setup 3: Guaranteed chance to land Enfeeble at unresisted duration.

Something like that maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viritess

Must shoot forums mechanics!

But i digress. I like the idea of WS>Spell and Spell>WS

WHat i'd like to see is Weapon skills that cause the debuff. and the spells that lets say, Invert, the debuff to a party buff for the same effect on the combo. for example

Your WS "XXXXX" causes Blind.

it combos into your "Magic Inversion" spell that takes that blind effect and applies it as a party buff +X/+X% resistance to blind.

Aslong as theres many choices as far as combo trees instead of the more linear routs many current classes have it can be instead of a "Jack of all trades" type of class to a versitile Buff/de-buffing class.

Could also give a WS skill that causes Poison damage. then the "inversion" spell can make that a party regen effect.

I think a mechanic like thiss will not only make the RDM fun and interesting on its own. but also give it a position as a melee caster. since WS will be needed to do its magical job.

Add in some spells that perhaps do magical Debuffs, and then can be used for inversion. but perhaps not on a combo. to "urge" folks to melee.

ANd weather the Debuff pre "inversion" needs to be used up or not i would expect would be a Balance issue, and could be worked out.

Overall the Above is what i'd love to see in the RDM class.

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Originally Posted by Haibel

unfortunately your all forgetting one key aspect. for rdm to become a job it has to be based off a class.
that class will be fencer. The way you want is never going to happen in this game. Fencer will be melee with
some CC skills and Rdm will just enhance that.

I myself can live without the elemental magic as long a fencer/rdm can be effective at melee and seriously limit
mobs abilty to function i'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Just a few suggestions on my part:

First, DO NOT give rdm a refresh spell, from the moment you got that spell in XI, you became nothing more than a glorified battery charger. this will also give players more incentive to carry items that recover/refresh MP.

DO give rdm some more AoE enhancements/enfeebles, or make them usable with sacred prism.

as far as weapons and armor, rdm should be able to wield swords, and equip light~middle weight armor (i.e. full plate would be too heavy, but chain/scale mail could be worn)

Finally, do bring back Composure, especially since chainspell and convert were divided up between whm and blm.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Think there's a bit of misinformation here..for one thing, RDM for the longest was the only job in the game that could solo the gods and minor HNMs (simurgh, roc, Ash dragon etc)..secondly it was a community problem that kept RDMs "in the back row" since I mean, RDM is on pretty much every non-heavy front-line set of armor/accessories in the game, including more than adequate haste gear, sword skill (especially at 99 cap), even a spell that grants them double attack.

So if anything it wasn't SE that ruined the job, like always it was players that ruined a job.

BRDs in XIV aren't told to just sit back and only refresh lol. Giving another job Refresh would help more than hurt honestly. especially given the endurance style fights SE are creating.

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Originally Posted by Bled

I don't understand how fencer makes it so there can be no casting options, especially with the current armory system.

As i see it the fencer class will give the melee where the job will pry give haste, regen, en-spells, and other RDM staples. To add on top of that all they need to do is adjust the base stats for cross class spells to make a customize your own RDM type set up.

RDM could either be the best thing to happen to FFXIV or the worse abomination, imo of course.

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Originally Posted by fusional

except... we do need another back line class/job. so if red mage isn't a back line class/job, and we need a back line class/job, then you also shouldn't have any qualms with devs pushing back its implementation until well after 2.0, correct?

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I've seen the word haste, and iirc the all powerful yoshi in the sky has stated it'll never happen.
As for other rdm staple spells, regen belongs to whm, debuffs belong to all casters, and some WS's. Idk where they're going to fit rdm in, but i foresee it being radically different than what most are looking forward to.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Who has gravity (a class/job may all ready have this in FF14, this is a legit question)? who has the en-spells? (if SE fixes elemental defense) who has Enfeeble *insert* element? who has the bar spells? who has temper?

I'm not saying these things to be a dick and a lot of these spells in other FF games were either a RDM spell or doubled as either a BLM or WHM spell too. My point is there are plenty of spells not yet dedicated to WHM and BLM that can set RDM apart, not to mention the ability for RDM to dip into both WHM and BLM naturally, on top of cross class additions.

RDM is a melee caster and because of the combo system in place i think there really is great possibilities to do some pretty great things with RDM. Weapon skill ==> spell ==> weapon skill.

Example:

Swarm Strike (which poisons in addition to damage) ==> *spell* poison (which would increase poisons effectiveness and DOT) ==> Swallow tail (which poisons enemies surrounding your target in addition to damage)

Another Example:

Gravity (normal gravity effects on top of weighing the enemy down deceasing movement speed) ==> Shadow Stick (binds and or slows the enemy even more) ==> stop (completely stops the enemy for a short time)

I could do a lot of these ex.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Actually, I recall Haste (gear) being decided against. The haste spell was realistically nothing but for recast if used alone.

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Originally Posted by Viritess

May request instead of decideing what can and can not be RDM perhaps we can form some suggestions around what can by making a skill lists/system that Spell or skill "X" could fit into.

I only post this request because, like many forum thread in the internet as a whole. we end up with some suggestions, and then pages of back and forth quotes.

Would be great that if you think skill or spell "X" is a good idea. propose some sort a system where it could be feasable.

A humble request, thank you :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexia

Abilities:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Spontaneity (This above all would probably be something specific for when they introduce long cast spells, i.e meteor or something.)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Composure (This has become a staple of RDMing, increasing duration of buffs on yourself is something all mages have wet dreams of.)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tranquil_Heart (This I think should be WHM/RDM really.)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_II (Unique spell that reduces both magic and physical damage taken? As well as casted on others? Yep.)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gain-MND (Gain/Boost spells grants you additional + stats. Who wouldn't want this? But SE does need to reexamine the stat bases....)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Temper (For those front line enthusiasts.)

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Agreed, and if you want to be technical none of the classes have enfeebles anymore, only side-effects of WS, Spells, and Combos and they don't land at a reliable rate (save for bind moves). Actual Enfeeble spells would be able to land more reliably, have greater effect, and you don't have to use weaponskills, combos, or have adhere to some directional condition to utilize them.

Either way I'm all for making RDM a core enfeebler/melee job and they can even throw some sort of cure or nuke in there as well, long as they can strengthen their magic within their melee somehow to require RDM's to be up there in the fray, but not so much they can't use their magic standalone. (IE: can still cast enfeebles, but combos can make it stronger)

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Originally Posted by Klive

I wonder how they will pull off Red Mage with only 4 abilities and a 15 Min ability to make them unique.

First off, only FFXI had Red Mages be debuff/buffers. Red Mage are generally know for being able to cast white/black magic and melee.

I would guess the base class would have to be a fencer class. Kind of like how the bard is a buffer but it base of archer that isn't a caster at all. The two classes it would pull abilities from would have to be THM and WHM; otherwise how would they get a spell list... job only give 5 abilities total.

I was running red mage through my head thought the abilities might be something like this.

1) Mage Stance - buff like cleric stance - Lowers melee damage, increases all casting stats (Healing pot, M.Acc, ect) and grants refresh. With a fencer being base, red mage would be a weaker caster. This so the Red Mage can shift to nuker/healer on the fly.

2) Double Cast - Classic Red Mage ability - Cast two spells, even different ones, using the same cast time.

3) Omni-Spell - Elemental-less nuke - I would have this spell combo off any attack spell and takes effects off the nuke which it was combo from. (Example: if combod off fire become a fire damge AoE or if combo from lightning does singe target lightning)

4) Spellblade - I made it up be goes with theme - WS combo effect gives a buff that makes next spell cast free of mp cost and insta-cast.

5) Chain Spell - 15 min ability and classic red mage ability - For duration of the buff all spells have no cast time or cooldown

I think these ideas, and that is all they are... my ideas, would make the red mage a versatile caster melee and able to fill any role on the fly. The abilities are unique and powerful enough to be wanted, yet not enough to replace a WHM or BLM.

I based these abilities off other FFs. I never played FFXI and thus it had litttle bearing on my design or vision.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Spontaneity is exactly like WHM's Presence of Mind so that's technically taken.

Composure was kind of a band-aid buff in FFXI, it didn't actually solve any issues and only applied to buffs casted on yourself till the AF3 came out. There actually was an ability that extended the duration of the spell in FFXIV (Can't remember the name of it for the life of me) so it could work well if RDM got it's own buffs, the only problem is without RDM getting it's own worthwhile party Enhancing spells, anything we cross class from WHM or other jobs would be at half strength because we would lack trait enhancements.

Trainquil Heart I could see working well, but it's a trait so I dunno where it would fit especially if they don't give RDM any of it's own healing spells.

I loved Phalanx that could be a workable spell, specially if you can stack it with Sacred Prism and if they included a enhanced duration ability. It would have to be named something else though since GLA has a shield move named Phalanx.

Gain spells, I could go for that too long as it buffed numerous parameters and was adjustable with Sacred Prism. I'd hate to see it be single target, take up an entire bar for each stat, and just have to relive the cycles... the.. Cycles... OH NO... IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN!!!! GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY! *Hunkers in a cradled position in the corner holding my head shivering*

Temper was one of those spells that was too little too late for RDM, after years of ignoring RDM and it actually being so under-powered and pigeonholed to the point they didn't even want it for the mage aspect anymore Tanaka just threw this out there to try to shut the melee crowd up (and enticed the rage of the anti-melee crowd many of which didn't even care about RDM anymore.) It could be useful as a JA that increases the speed of your attacks, attack power, or double attack depending on how SE want's to play with it, definitely something to consider though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firon

I had a few ideas for rdm skills(not in learned order)

1. DBL Cast

2. Poison Thrust (ws)

3. Silence Flurry (ws)

4 Death Blossom (ws)

5. Blinding Thrust(ws)

6. Paralyzing Flurry(ws)

7. Water

9. Watera

10 Enwater

11 Enfire

12. Faith ( Increases magic attack power)

13. Bravery (Increases Attack power)

That's all i could think of for now i wanted the last 2 spots to be reserved for skills and not more spells if you have any other suggestions add them. also this would be for the base class and not rdm, also i think the job rdm should have the two sub classes of lnc/whm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tahldon

Taking Viritess's suggestion, I took the time to whip this up. I've just been wondering how those melee skills could come in handy as far as bar space and all that is concerned.

However, after coming up with this, I happened to have read SwordCoheir's post above about the abilities. So, I'm not sure how far this will go. But here goes.

1. Weaponskill 1 + (AOE EnAero + BarAero)
2. Weaponskill 2 + (AOE EnStone + BarStone)
3. Weaponskill 3 + (AOE EnFire + BarFire)
4. Weaponskill 4 + (AOE EnWater + BarWater)
5. Weaponskill 5 + (AOE EnThunder + BarThunder)
6. Banish
7. Scourge
8. Water
9. Silence
10. Bind
11. Slow
12. Poison
13. Paralyze
14. Haste
15. Blaze Spikes or Shock Spikes
16. Temper
17. Saboteur
18. Spontaneity
19. Dual Cast
20. Composure

Plus the WHM and BLM Cross-class abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klive

Thing is, Red mage will be a job. The base class is something that can branch into something other than Red Mage. They already plan to have the classes have more than one job. So keep that in mind with your ideas. The base class should be something that can branch into something other than Red Mage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Aye, the only thing I worry about though is if RDM becomes branched off of GLA that would be throwing a third (well 5th technically) tank like job in the mix, besides that most of their abilities would be focused on physical defense, hate control, and frontal combos rather than physical damage and enfeebling effects. It might do ok if RDM is built up off of PLD for advanced job development, then it would be a tank that has a secondary focus to help out the party and not seem so half-assed.

It just seems like building a new job and constructing it around the musketeer/fencer class with focuses on enfeebling and melee would be more beneficial for RDM in the long run.

I'd say just change one little aspect of that, and give us a bar spell that's strong to the element that monster is. Like Fire is weak to wind so EnAero + BarFire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanguard319

maybe not, but you can't fairly compare the two. rdm was a melee class, and was optimized for front-line fighting. Brd in xiv has the advantage of a ranged weapon, and is pretty much well suited for rear line fighting because of that range advantage. You can argue that rdm has access to attack magic, but you had a very limited MP pool when compared to whm or blm, and most of that was used refreshing/hasting/healing the rest of the party. The only ways you were able to fight as a rdm in a party was if you had a scholar as main heal, due to being the only other mage that got a convert-like ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firon

would make no sense to use any of the classes for rdm it would be better to just make another class. They are not gonna branch every new job onto the older classes would be pointless imo if they want this game to last longer more classes = more stuff for ppl to lvl and more content for said class/job.

Edit Just cant see any class atm filling rdm's shoes.

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Originally Posted by yaten

yes please,bring us rdm thats the only job i want in this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klive

I couldn't sleep so I whipped up an idea of what the base fencer class could be that red mage could use as a base class with my previous red mage job idea.

I made the fencer to be a duelist. Something that works with one opponent, but has trouble with multiple.

Lvl 1- Lunge - Basic Front WS

Lvl 2 - Retreat - Slide backward and regen Hp. Fades upon being hit.

Lvl 4 - Reprise - After you are Parried/Missed WS

Lvl 6 -Passata-sotto - Increase chance to dodge single target enemy

Lvl 10 - Shadow Stick - Combo off Lunge: Bonus Heavy on target

Lvl 14 - Appel - Taunt

Lvl 18 - Riposte - After Parry WS

Lvl 22 - Finesse - Increase Crit. Rate buff for next attack

lvl 26 - Featherblow - Back Attack WS

Lvl 30 - Swarm Strike - Combo off Featherblow causes poison: Bonus Increase poison duration

Lvl 34 - Engagement - Auto-attack against target increase TP generation

Lvl 38 - Disengage - Lowers damage from single target enemy when holding highest enmity

Lvl 42 - Fleet of Foot - Removed heavy and if heavy is removed grant movement increase

Lvl 46 - Swallow Tail - AoE WS Combos off Shadow Stick: Bonus turn to single target multi-hit attack

Lvl 50 - Check Mate - Ws combos off Swarmstrike: Bonus: Greatly increase crit damage.

EDIT: For easier reading. All in one spot.

Red Mage:
Cross Classes: THM and CNJ

1) Mage Stance - buff like cleric stance - Lowers melee damage, increases all casting stats (Healing pot, M.Acc, ect) and grants refresh. With a fencer being base, red mage would be a weaker caster. This so the Red Mage can shift to nuker/healer on the fly.

2) Double Cast - Classic Red Mage ability - Cast two spells, even different ones, using the same cast time.

3) Omni-Spell - Elemental-less nuke - I would have this spell combo off any attack spell and takes effects off the nuke which it was combo from. (Example: if combo-ed off fire become a fire damage AoE or if combo from thunder does singe target thunder)

4) Spellblade - I made it up be goes with theme - WS combo effect gives a buff that makes next spell cast free of mp cost and insta-cast.

5) Chain Spell - 15 min ability and classic red mage ability - For duration of the buff all spells have no cast time or cooldown

Keep in mind. I have not played FFXI and do not see Red Mage as a Debuffer/Buffer. I see red mage as melee that can cast low level white and black magic that has quicker spells to make up for weaker spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Eh, I think I'd take the parry requirements off those abilities, your not really going to parry unless you have the intention on tanking and it just feels like it would take away from it's abilities even with a taunt to utilize abilities like forsight.

There doesn't seem to be a 3rd combo group in there either, DD's (even GLA) have 3 combo setups to work with by 50 some getting a 4th by the time they complete a Job.

~~BTW: There's no Swift Strike on the list for Shadow Stick to combo off of.~~ (NVM Fixed it.)

Don't take what I'm saying too seriously though, I over-analyze things a bit. XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klive

I fixed the swift strike part. I made the fencer to be a dualist, kind of a light tank that is great for one on one fighting. I tried to keep in mind what fencing is really like. I used the GLA as a loose template and that is why it doesn't have a 3rd combo line. I accept it is a rough idea at best. I'm not a a dev or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aikawananase

i hate front line rdm. you just suck at the game if your front line. damn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nabiri

I would like a real RDM. A battle mage~ Sword and magic, as it's meant to be.
That's how I always played it in XI. :3 (I really didn't care if people hated me for playing the job as intended. XD)

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlemagne

First off I'd like to say that I'll be happy as long as I get my pimp hat.
One thing I don't see happening is rdm getting the elemental en- spells. The primal weapons seem to be going down the route of adding elemental dmg and I think giving the ability to rdm will just wate an ability. Why cast en-fire when you could just equip an ifrit wpn for example. I do think that the most effective way of making the rdm a melee role will be to involve tp in whatever spellcasting abilities it has or maybe even to make one or two spells only available after a miss or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusional

okay, but again- it's been all but confirmed that the next class will be a back line/caster class. which means if you get what you all want and red mage is more of a "battle mage", that puts it up in the front line. which means no red mage any time in the near future, because the next class will most certainly not be anything front line-ish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babydoll

It is supposed to be neither front nor back line..(it did best in the front thought) RDM is simply a jack of all trades..master of none. Some select few elite people in FFXI managed to pull that off ^_^ The only thing it was really lacking was DD. It wasn't supossed to be as powerful as a mnk or war...but shoulda been decent. Meh..I think if Yoshi puts it in XIV he will do a good job =D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felis

Hmm, what other job can Fencer be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aikawananase

then why give the mob tp? if your good at enfeebling and enhancing ppl, why bother?
get in the back of the bus and do what your suppose to in a group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bled

I may have found another class that could utilize rapiers and Fencer abilities, the Elementalist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babydoll

Cuz according to square soft that was the point of rdm..a jack of all trades..

Its "supossed" to be good at everything but master of none.

IDK how else to explain lol search in google for it or try play the old FF games :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menta

if is Good at all but isnt master in anything , just GTFO , that will suck :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexxus

If you want a melee rdm it's simple, make all his powerfull spell as an enspell (like fist of *** for mnk).

Slow stance : Next Hit will land slow on the target, occasionnaly enhance the power of slow if you keep hiting the target. (First hit: slow +5% , Occasionnaly 5% chance to add 1% slow each time you hit the target, Slow cap @10%).

Haste Stance : Next hit will trigger Haste on you and your party's member, occasionnaly enhance the power of haste if you keep hiting the target. (First hit: Haste+5%, Occasionnaly 10% chance to add 1% haste each time you hit the target, Haste cap@10%)

Etc...

If you make him to perpetually use his sword to trigger spells/ja you'll have a RDM melee ! :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruisu

Red Mages? Melee?

Pfffffffffffft get the fuck back and keep enfeebling, you're getting in the way of real damage dealers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

Agree with this, I think Green mage, Beastmaster or Summoner need to be priorities before Red Mage.

Green Mage would be my choice, Time magic (Slow, Stop, Haste) and umbral/astral magic.

Hmm not enough en spells, its makes the class too situational IMO, you would need all of them, DBL cast could be a combo effect.

I would rather see RDM weapons skills have elemental DoT's like Drown, Choke, Frost etc than enfeebling, we already have those through other classes.

If Green Mage was a back line class then I would like to see silence, paralyze and posion for that instead.

Fencer > RDM - DoT specialist
Arcanist > GNM - Enfeebling specialist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaltus

Everyone shouldnt forget that whenever Rdm maybe implemented the number of abilities for the job and from outside classes may have increased especially if the level cap is raised. Thumbs up for frontline RDM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klive

I would guess Blue Mage. They used sabers which are a fencing weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majidah

This is actually not a bad idea, I'm surprised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldarin

So if you look at the numerous variations on jobs, most of the jobs have a consistent theme. For Red Mage, the theme is a combo of white and black magic. FFXI put the connotation of enfeebler on Red Mage, which is not true throughout the series. Another class that does White Magic/Black Magic is the Sage, which could be used instead.

The class that FFXI RDM borrows from in terms of the Magic/Melee is the Spell Blade/Mystic Knight, which is only seen in a few games. The Mystic Knight has the ability to imbue their weapon with a spell, increasing damage and helping to mitigate some forms of damage reduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireille

Makes me feel like posting a 'Summoner: I am not a healing job' thread....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexia

As true as that is, you only have SE to blame for that lol. They attached healing magic to most summoners in the series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airget

The basis of a Red mage is a backline job. A Red mage has 33% white magic, 33% black magic and 33% "attack". In the FF series a Red mage was able to fulfill all roles and while they couldn't hit as hard as a warrior, use strong magic like a black mage or cure as big as a white mage they could handle any situation. Fight a mob that's immune to magic, they can still strike for decent dmg with their blade, fight a mob immune to physical attacks they can use magic. In one situation the black mage is useless and in another the warrior is useless but overall the Red Mage can find themselves always useful in any situation. The blade they wield signifies that they are also capable of melee combat but it's not their main strength.

The reason why Red mage was given the identity of an enfeebler was to expand on their jack of all trades aspect, their enfeeble factor allows them to make up for their abilities in fighting, curing and elemental magic. Red mages can't cure as much as a White mage but they can conjure up potent enfeebles to reduce the amount of healing that may need to be done over time. If Red mage is introduced in this game it won't be focused as a melee it's main focus will most likely be the enfeeble factor, if you want a magic class that use magic and is a front-line fighter then it would be better to look at a class which interprets the ability Celes uses, Runic Blade. Runic Blade could be a mix of a magic defense and melee class using the absorb ability to reduce damage taken from magical attacks while using the same magical energy to send it back to the foe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_love_lamps

and of course the 1% sexy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I really like the idea of 'Stance' spells as a way to create the Jack-of-all-trades theme in a FFXIV RDM.

I could see something like this working; (RDM job skills)

Faith (spell-self only): Enhances Magic attack Power - Reduces melee attack power - Stacks up to 3x

Brave (spell-self only): Enhances Melee attack Power - Reduces magic attack power - Stacks up to 3x

Bubble (spell-self only): Doubles Maximum HP - Greatly reduces magic and melee attack power

Blossom Edge (weaponskill): Deals damage proportional to your enmity and then reduces it.

Chainspell (ability): Cast spells in rapid succession

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

ok cool red mage mid combat as a class, advan job red wizard back line job. Now start refreshing!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyln

Actually, that's not true. In most games, summoning was it's own thing, not really associated with any other type of magic. While it was true that the same character had white magic and summoning magic in some of the games (IX and X specifically), most of the time, it was its own thing which can be used in conjunction with other types of magic (III, V, XI) or other magic (IV) or it's own special system (VI, VII, VIII, XII, XIII).

It is not true that summoning magic has always been with healing magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Any job or class can be whatever they want it to be and it's not up to any one person here to tell them what it is or isn't supposed to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klive

Agreed, being a fan does not grant rights to an intellectual property. I'm just speculating for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punainen

OMG, yes yes yessssss... Red Mage was always my absolute favorite, but I hated when higher levels of Red Mage in XI forced me into the back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I've been doing a pretty extensive build up on Fen/Mskt/RDM for the better part of the day. Granted it's probably not exactly what most people will expect, I hope it can at least incorporate a structure to base off of. I'll post it once I do some editing and add some organization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazaran

As long as RDM isn't over powered like it has been for a long time in FFXI. With malee/spell combo, comes reduced damage in each part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davorok

1. Red Mage could have very high Melee Accuracy but low Damage. TP builds up very quickly. Convert (exclusive to RDM) converts TP into MP.

2. I like your suggestion, essentially save TP for increased melee dmg or Convert to mp for increased Enfeebling/Magic Attack Strength.

3.Excellent idea. Forces RDM to manage TP / MP ratios to be most effective.

4. Refresh: make it a Cross Class Mage Ability. Refresh transfers casters MP pool (25-75%) to single target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indira

rdm will be something else who knows what but it will be streamlined like every other class in the game and you wont have a massive list of spells in FFXIV. remember you get 5 job ablitys and 20 other cross class at lv50. and will probly have to wait for fencer to be unlocked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firon

No actually most games where summoner is tied to a char and not a equipped item like FF 6-8 it has mostly had white magic. Rydia had both white and black Eiko and dagger both had white magic and so did yuna That right there is like the whole FF series iconic summoners...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

Why are people trying to make RDM into what 11 had, RDM should not get refresh nor should they be an enfeeblist.

I agree that summoner should not have any healing magic, give them cross class skills of a THM but not CNJ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I spent the better part of the day putting this together and I think it would work out well when/if Red Mage is implemented.

Fair Warning: This is based off my personal interpretation of how classes are currently built, granted there is probably a mistake here and there. I tried to build Fencer / Musketeer as structurally similar to how other classes setup as possible, so it may not be quite what people expected.

Second Fair Warning: This is a huge detailed wall of text, I'm using hide tags to try and condense it all.

Fencer / Musketeer

Red Mage

O.o... Whew... that took forever. I might make it into it's own thread too if people think its a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

^ that sounds more like mystic from FFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlaulaTheGreat

I'm all for melee-ranged spellsword skills. What comes to mind is FFXIII's way they did things, like flamestrike or icestrike.

Only problem I see is they'd have to give them their own special kind of swords to fit into the armory system.
I say orbs that turn to swords in active mode and turn back to orbs in passive mode.
Make Alchemist/Goldsmith make them, and bam, profit!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Yeah I tried wrapping my head around possible ways to incorporate black and white magic into the mix, but the way FFXIV is setup it makes it almost impossible to do without making it's own spells and abilities. The problem with that is you might end up with another situation like the whole WAR/PLD debacle where RDM steals WHM or BLMs position in a group, or you make the job so under-powered in comparison nobody will want it.

I thought the easiest way to get around the whole thing was just fit it in a role that isn't being taken at the moment and just have ways to supplement playstyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bled

Well seeing as to the best of my knowledge there has only been one traditional full Fencer job in all of FF (aka Fencer in FF tactics) i would base the class abilities around that, where as the job unlock wold be more singularly focused RDM spells and abilities.

Another branch off the Fencer class instead of RDM could be the Elementalist from FF tactics.

The only reason i bring up FF tactics (twice) is because it has one of the widest arrays of FF jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babydoll

This. Also yeah no thanks to SMN healing. Maybe the pet could have access to some aura PT regen thing, or the pets can nuke..idk. Just as long as the actual Summoner is not relied on as a main healer like in XI /dies

Quote:

Originally Posted by LillithaFenimore

Hush and know your place fewl! hehehe.

No I agree. I felt this when I played my redmage on XI...however I felt the same way with Summoner...neither better not be put in the back seat >.>; I will be pissed if they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexia

Probably because FFXI's RDM was actually a different take on what it generally was, especially in the earlier games. Why shouldn't it be an enfeeblist? Especially when SE already confirmed there will be a mage class that deals with it? Or are you in the frame of thought enfeebles should go to every mage and we have no specialists in this game?

Ironically enough SMN is more like the classic style SMN these days in FFXI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazaran

WHen you have Mage in the title... it would follwo the mage line of things.

As logn as it is balanced, you can't be both a pwoerfull malee and caster at the same time. But a Caster that has to build points to cast through malee, woudl balance it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazaran

Plus, please brign in SMN. Not a buff happy one either. It kinda got ruined.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexia

I don't think SMN was ever buff happy in any of the games. In XI it had some USEFUL buffs, but SMN is probably one of the most damaging jobs in new content outside of those who have Empyrean/Relic/Mythic weapons.

Especially SMNs who did their trials or went after a Nirvana.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wevlum

Definitely was in FFXI (inb4 someone tells me their 1337 rdm haxxorz melee set-up). I don't think we'll see a repeat of the same though since supposedly it's going to stem from fencer or something? Anyways I'm sure ffxiv RDM will be awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlaulaTheGreat

I fear, this game will need an alternate healing class soonish though. but what...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wevlum

Chemist~ Just don't make it have to hoard ingredients -.-;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bled

I would love to see a Devout job.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...FF3-Devout.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eremor

I've had my hopes up for Red Mage since I saw it in the third player's poll, I believe the choice was 'A front line debuffing job (Red Mage)'. Not sure if that was the exact wording but 'front line' was definitely in there...

I played Red Mage in XI for years, I loved the job but always felt it never quite lived up to it's full potential (at least in parties, soloing I pushed the limits and enjoyed every minute of it). But I digress, I don't want to copy Red Mage exactly from XI to here, now it's time for Red Mage 2.0.

Now even though Fencer sounds like a class that wouldn't use any magic at all, it's somewhat of a necessity that it does since the majority of skills will come from the base class (only 5 of 20 abilities come from jobs at this time) so Fencer is going to feel alot like Red Mage since I just can't fit the entirety of the Red Mage job in a measly 5 skills.

So here is my suggestion for a build for the Fencer class and the Red Mage job as I hope it might be here in FF XIV:

Weaponskills (in combo order, names are just off the top of my head)

Thrust - Basic rapier attack; damage increased from in front of the target
combos to:
Flourish - lowers target's accuracy; combo bonus increased accuracy down effect
---
Indirect - chance to inflict TP bleed when executed from the left or right of the target
combos to:
Spirit Taker - Inflicts damage to target's MP; combo bonus drain MP
---
Fletch - a running attack that passes through the target, chance to inflict Bleed when used from the front of the target.
combos to:
Tranche - stun attack, chance to stun increased when used from behind the target.
combos to:
(Red Mage weaponskill) Death Blossom - powerful attack that inflicts magic evasion down; combo bonus increase magic evasion down effect.

I know this is fewer weaponskills then most other jobs get but I thought it was important to keep the idea of a melee mage, and more WS means less mage, so trying to keep it balanced. Important to note that the weaponskills inflict abnormal status ailments (ie. flourish inflicts accuracy down effect rather then blind), this is important to allow the Red Mage to stack WS effects and direct spells (like blind) for extra enfeebling potency. I also Included the unusual effect of Spirit Taker, it would deal MP damage rather then HP damage, ideally this would be balanced such that it would potentially be possible to use it to fully deplete an opponent's MP before their HP (maybe 2 or 3 hits for most mobs 4-5 for a boss). This could potentially be powerful but could be balanced by giving bosses an MP recovery move, this would be a better counter then simply giving bosses impossibly huge MP pools since while it would keep Spirit Taker from locking down spell casting completely it would still be useful as a delaying move (making the boss waste TP to recover MP). Also the MP drain effect would probably not be equal to the full damage of the WS but at least some reasonable return. For Fletch I was thinking that the WS animation would actually move your character through the mob. (sort of like Shoulder Tackle) Ideally this would be quick enough to allow you to combo with Tranche even when soloing (like how it is possible to hit mobs from left or right if your timing is good).

Spells:

Blind

Slow

Silence

Paralyze

Haste

The classic debuffing spells for direct, on demand debuffs, plus haste to help with soloing and support role in parties. Maybe swap one out for Bind for crowd control.

Red Mage Job spells:

Dispel - a potentially powerful debuff

Refresh - yeah I know this probably going to be flamed, but right now it seems that XIV is in need of another refreshing support job, especially a single target caster to help with PLD. I don't mind if Red Mage is that job so long as it isn't the main focus.

Abilities:

Cold Steel (Enblizzard) - adds ice elemental damage to attacks and inflicts evasion down. Consumes MP while active.

Arcing Steel (Enthunder) - adds lightning elemental damage to attacks and inflicts attack down. Consumes MP while active.

(Red Mage ability) Liquid Steel (Enwater) - adds water elemental damage to attacks and inflicts defense down. Consumes MP while active.

Expose - reset's the target's resistance to your next enfeebling magic spell.

Composure - dodge next area of effect attack.

Here's where the meat is. In order to make sure Red Mage isn't pushed to the back lines I thought it would be good to make the enspells the primary means of debuffing a target. Additionally I tried to make each enhancing spell as useful as possible, Wind based mobs are weak to Ice damage and also are more likely to have high evasion, Earth based mobs are weak to water and also are more likely to have high defense, attack down on enthunder was just to fill out the triad (probably wouldn't be used much). I limited it to just these three in order to make Red Mage the elemental counterpart to Monk. Exposure is needed because all of the traditional debuffs are nerfed by the crowd control adjustments, this lets you be able to at least stick one debuff on any mob at any time. Composure is absolutely essential, especially since Red Mage would most likely have the lowest HP pool of any job in melee, it will require a very potent survival ability just to avoid being a liability in combat.

15 Minute ability:

Runic Blade - Absorb hostile spells with your sword, nullifying their effect and restoring your MP.

I thought this would make a good support role ability, probably be a suitably short duration (10s probably). It could be chainspell, but why? With no native offensive spells chainspell would be very underwhelming, since spamming enfeebles would just build the mobs resistance.

Traits (in no particular order):

Enhanced Physical Accuracy

Enhanced Magic Accuracy, levels 1 and 2

Enhanced Enfeebling Magic Potency, levels 1 and 2

Swift Composure

Enhanced Composure - increases melee damage and reduces TP the target gains from your attacks while composure is active (thinking 30s duration or untill it's consumed by an aoe attack)

Swift Expose

Enhanced Expose - adds a chance to reset the target's resistance to all enfeebling magic.

Fast Cast, levels 1 and 2 - 15% (20% at level 2) chance of having your next spell cast instantly (I thought this would be more noticeable then having your 2 second cast times reduced by 20% but the overall effect would be the same. Numbers are assuming an Enhances Fast Cast trait on AF armor bringing the total to 25%. The primary purpose of this is to reduce the effect of spell casting on melee capability, it would have no effect on recast times)

Red Mage cross class skills would probably be best as CNJ and THM since without any native heals or nukes this would help keep the image of a generalist mage as well as give Red Mage a good list of support abilities (being in melee makes the Red Mage perfectly placed to pop off Sacred Prism + Sanguine Rite).

This is just my idea, it could certainly be better. I just hope that we can influence any decisions regarding the job to make sure it is both useful and more importantly is enjoyable to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyln

Rydia (IV) ditched the white magic early on in the game to learn black magic fully. In this case, summoning magic was tied to black magic, not white magic.

It is true that both Eiko and Garnet (IX) both had white magic and summoning magic. However, this is the only game in the series that had white magic and summoning magic tied together.

Yuna (X) usually had white magic, but she was a summoner first. Using the sphere grid though, players can make Yuna pick up black magic instead, or warrior skills, or thief skills. Or any other character can be white magic. So, while by default, Yuna could do white magic, it wasn't necessarily true.

With that said, in the rest of the series, summoning magic isn't tied to white or black magic, but it's own special system, either as magic, or something entirely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wevlum

Won't quote entire thing Eremor since it's long but I could definitely get behind a class that fills the sort of role you describe... though I wouldn't give them haste personally, damage and enfeebling is enough. Also haven't they hinted at time mage somewhere? (they'd get slow and haste spells basically)

I like that the enspells described are the elements mnk doesn't use and at the same time they're element damage + enfeebles which opposes mnk's element damage + buffs.

The composure skills/traits seem less focused than the rest of the class and I'd have liked to see some combos that use both spells and WS; as a random from-the-aether pull, silence (silences target)->stifle (extends duration of initial silence and turns single target WS into an aoe with silence effect.)

9/10 otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iacon

I must be one of the few people who DO NOT want to see RDM gain Mystic Knight's Spellblade abilities. That is the one job that has been shafted after FFV and I would love to see it come back to its original glory. Whatever they plan to do with RDM is fine, but please, do not give them Spellblade spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riv

ws and magic combos are a good idea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resheph

Excellent idea! If they used this plan for RDM I would instantly switch mains!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_Shardveil

Here here! Yes! I love the ideas being shot around. I agree with Firon, it should be a frontline class! TP2Magic is a great idea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raistlin

sure, a mage who need to melee to combo, and will be the class noone want to fight bosses

Aoe -> RDM died

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wevlum

Mage isn't automatically a glass cannon hybrids exist. Hell cnj aren't terrible at taking hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

I've already said that enfeebles should be on a green/time mage, which should be a back line class, RDM should be a melee class with elementals DoT's based weaponskills and spells.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be a role for enfeebling, I'm saying I don't' want it to be RDM.

I'll repeat myself seeing as you didn't read my other posts, what I would like to see is:-

Arcanist > GRN > Enfeebling/time magic, astral and umbral spells. (cross class from THM,PUG)
Fencer > RDM > Enspells, Weaponskills that inflict elemental DoT's and Water spells. (cross class from both THM and CNJ)

Seeing as RDM is water they could get aquaviel which when used with sacred prism could be an AoE party buff, sacred prism + enspell AoE elemental weapon buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

LOL the irony.

It was RDM that took the role from WHM to begin with, WHM just took back what was theirs :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firon

Jinko if rdm is gonna be hybrid meele _ mage they need to have one mage sub and one melee sub and CNJ/LNC could be the best depending on their skill set. The rest i agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

Thats true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyln

The answer is don't make RDM die to AoE's as easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wevlum

Yeah but neither were SCH. You can't compete with p.q levels of sophistication.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klive

Only FFXI has red mages as enfeebler. Last I heard, the arcanist was going to be our mage enfeelber. Anyways, Red Mages are known, in all except FFXI, as melee versatile casters that use weak black and white mage. They get abilities that give them quicker casting and double casting to compensate for their weaker spells.

I pulled this description from here http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage

Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a high price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it. Thus, the Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. However, in certain games, Red Mages have a special ability such as Dualcast which boosts their spell casting efficiency.

I'm not saying the Red Mage shouldn't be an enfeebler mage/melee, I'm saying FF14 probably isn't going to copy FFXI.Our BLM and WHM copy more from FFIII than anything else; hence WHM having stone and wind magic. I would guess they are more likely to use that as a template over FFXI Red Mage.

EDIT:
FFXI is still going and people are still playing it. Probably wouldn't be in SE interests to copy an entire class/job from an MMO they still have going. Variety is probably a better direction between the two games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haibel

I never said rdm wouldn't be a melee caster. it will be. I'm just saying a lot of people are not taken in to
account that it's a classic job that people assume it will be added as a class. It's not going to be added
as a class. there is no doubt that rdm with be added and it will be added as fencer will be it's class it's born
from.

the spells and abiltys that people are coming up with are unrealistic to the format this game has taken. SE is
not going to your overhaul the whole battle system again to come up with this style of RDM. I just don't want to
see all the QQ over having a RDM people didn't expect.

You get 15 class abilities 5 job and 5 cross class. I like the idea of bring back some of the removed thm spells

no order implied. Fencer

1 dia
2 bio
3 banish (As a WS with an HP requirement, combos with Dia , combo Effect steals HP based on dmg)
4 scrouge (As a WS with an MP Requirement, Combos with Bio, Combo Effect steals MP based on dmg)
5 Sacrifice
6 Paralyze
7 Silence
8 Slow
9 Sacrament (makes next enfeebling effect Aoe)
10 quick strike (basic ws)
11 quick reflex (parries next attack)
12 wasp sting ( piercing strike after parry, induces poison)
13 Dual Slash (two-fold ws, combo quick strike, Condition from the side. effect gravity. )
14 Stab (ws Combo Quick strike, Condition from the side.)
15 Upswing Stab (WS Combo Stab From the rear, effect imperial)

RDM:

Enchantment: Imbed your blade with Magical enchantment, Astral dmg by day, Umberal by night.
Warlocks ward. Aoe ability, Protect your party from enfeebling effects
Dispel (Removes Mob Enhancement)
Hexa Blade (Ws Five-fold attack, Combo Dual Slash, Lowers defense to Enfeebling Magic )
Barrier: Renders all party members in AOE Immune to all Magical attacks. 15 minute ability

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haibel

We are lacking a PURE Enfeebler. I believe rdm will only cross class with gla and thm thus the way I made the build type
I did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexia

Irony of this is FFXI was designed as "what they always wanted to do with FFIII but never could" so it's essentially another version of FFIII and the WHM "with stone and wind magic" for example was later turned into SCH, which the DS version had, but not original.

So it wouldn't be an exact copy, but RDM is no longer the weak blm/whm with a sword it used to be, it's a lot more versatile now, to the point it can outlive pretty much every job in the game (XI), so they have yet another style to build from.

Which was the point of even mentioning their last MMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eremor

I'm seeing quite a bit of overlap with the builds posted here, which is a good thing. It means we all have something in common in what we want to see from Red Mage in XIV. One point of contention I noticed is the difference between people wanting RDM to be either a dedicated enfeebler or a generalist mage, so we should discuss that further.

Personally I prefer the dedicated enfeebler for several reasons:

First, the game presently does not have any dedicated enfeebler and RDM could potentially fill that role.

Second, it seems to me that the current class/job mechanics lean toward a system where none of the abilities or spells are copied exactly between one class/job and another. Making RDM a generalist mage would practically require that this trend would have to be broken to accommodate it.

Third and most importantly, being a generalist mage in XI is exactly what got RDM shafted in party roles. Hell RDM didn't even originally have the Refresh spell, which had to be added to even give RDM any kind of position in a party at all, and which ended up being it's only role for a large part of the game. So basically I fear a repetition of this in XIV if we attempt to recreate a generalist type of Red Mage. A debuffing specialist would be less likely to be forced out of the role it was designed to fill. Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of RDM as a versatile generalist mage, but it runs the risk of being forced into a specific role that it was not designed for and all that versatility just goes to waste and the job becomes very unpleasant to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

^ They already implied that arcanist would be the enfeebler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elexia

They also implied it would be trap style, not necessarily magic. We have LNC/DRG/MRD/WAR/PGL/MNK that does melee style damage, where was it written there can only be 1 style of enfeeblist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scherwiz

I like magey RDM, but tanking on RDM was a blast as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

Check your shoe ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Agreed, fortunately FFXIV's game mechanics will likely prevent what happened in FFXI from happening here, if it's designed around the fact that Fencer / RDM can't have everything like in previous games. Considering jobs like WHM and BLM don't have everything either, it's almost guaranteed we won't see a hodgepodge of every elemental enspell, gain-stat, or nukes taking up every slot in the action bar especially when you throw in a few combos for the melee side.

If you look at the patch notes for 1.20 at the different jobs level progression / abilities gained, you can actually see SE followed a specific pattern for all the jobs when they rebuilt them, so I wouldn't expect Fencer / RDM to diverge from it.

BTW: SE already pointed out RDM would be an enfeebler / melee class in the 3rd players pool, doesn't mean it still won't borrow from white and black magic with melee on the side however. Thought I'd bring that up sense alot of people have been kinda torn about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiote

HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

Combo Effect: Removes Casting time.

I think they should make the spells in combos more generic too. So instead of dooing WS > WS > Paralyze you can do WS > WS > Any Enfeeble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delsus

Idm if RDM is front line, mid line, back line, 500 lightyears line, JUST KEEP THE DAMN MAGES REFRESHED, and me hasted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agoven

I'd be a blue wizard but I'll settle for white for now...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duelle

Fixed.

Looks like I didn't have to return to keep the melee movement going. Kudos to the OP for having the guts to get this thread started. Now with that in mind...

What I would like to see is SE play to RDM's hybrid nature by allowing two classes to equip a RDM crystal. One of them being Fencer, the other being Conjurer. Obviously, when Fencer has the RDM crystal, the result would be a melee mage that focuses on dealing elemental magic through sword strikes as well as enfeebling with very minor and limited support. CON using a RDM crystal could then yield a support-based caster that focuses on staying in the back and using spells.

The only thing that is VERY risky about the above is that desperation for healers may cause one to be preferred over the other, whereas I would want both to be useful so that there is no overlap between FNC/RDM and CON/RDM when both are in a party. I'll have to go back and mull over some of the suggestions I've made since these forums began and see what works. I hadn't realized the weapon classes had been notably trimmed in terms of abilities and spells, for one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niqote

You can have that and I'll take the buffing/debuffing/healing gypsy/dancer :D kay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramsey

This is an interesting suggestion, but it's also a giant exceptional case, making it unattractive to devs. This would require they adapt their system to accept a 2:1 class:job ratio, all for the sake of a single job. When you also consider that a job is made up primarily of actions from its class (since currently, jobs only add a handful of abilities) you're making a lot of additional balance issues. It's basically twice the work for only one class.

Not that it's impossible, but I don't see it as being a likely idea unless they establish a new precedent where multiple classes branch into multiple jobs.

I see it being far more likely that we simply get a Fencer:Red Mage deal. Which I am perfectly fine with, though I see as being a bit wonky given that currently, you can only set 5 actions from other jobs. Assuming they give RDM access to CON/THM actions (as they should) it's going to be tough and highly dependent on situation which actions you're going to set.

Now they could give fencer some inherent magic actions, or even duplicate actions from other classes, but that sets another exceptional case, and so I also see that as being unlikely.

I suppose if I had to say what I hope to see, it's a Fencer that is half Fencer, half Magic Swordsman, with a wide variety of attacks and abilities that pull from the more physically oriented Fencer (Reflex, Nighthawk, etc.) and attacks that pull from the more magically oriented Magic Swordsman (Spellblade, etc.) Culminating in a DPS / debuff / evasion off-tank.

The tough part with this approach though would be the Red Mage specific abilities. Red Mage staples like doublecast and chainspell would feel awkward, as they're enhancement skills for spells. And as any sort of spellblade/fencing action would be a TP/MP weapon skill, not a spell, Red Mage would have job actions that can't be applied to any of the job's native actions. I suppose Paladin already has a little of this though, so it's not unprecedented.

White Mage also already essentially has doublecast, meaning it would have to function differently to warrant being a unique ability. Hopefully a much quicker cooldown, and perhaps the ability to cast the same spell on two different targets or two spells on the same target with one cast timer. (I.E. simultaneously)

If it were possible to make some sort of ability that functioned differently based on what you combo it with, some sort of context sensitive nuke as a RDM action might work, but again that's another new exception. But for example, Fire Sword > RDM Nuke (Becomes a Fire nuke for the combo.) Ice Sword > RDM Nuke (Becomes an Ice nuke for the combo.)

And unless doublecast were on an extremely quick cooldown, RDM would be incredibly sub par in healing when they needed to fill that role.

Ideally I would love to see RDM have various stances to play various roles that degrade over time, forcing you to switch roles over the course of a battle to essentially plug holes, meaning you could never take on any given role for an entire battle, meaning you'd never be pigeon-holed as a class into a specific role.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what SE has in store. Given the system they've set up for class:job relationships though, I can't see how they can possibly create a RDM that can make everyone happy, or adhere to FF precedents for how RDM works.

Edit: Instead of having an option between rapiers and daggers, I'd love to see RDM using rapier main hand/ main gauche offhand, as a parrying only offhand. Whether as two separate items or one "two-handed" set it doesn't matter to me. I'd also love to see Celes' "Runic" ability reappear for Fencer, allowing them to negate a single magic effect and regain MP for it. Would be a nice anti-magic tanking ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duelle

Well, RDM is in the unique position of being the original hybrid job. Then again, I was trying to keep those who liked playing in the back lines in mind.
True. On the upside, if might remind someone at SE that each job is capable of more than one task alone. I know it's way too late to bring that to the table, but meh.
Well, I think the Thief and Summoner enthusiasts are sort of hoping for this. My RDM suggestion kind of paves the way for them.
I would be perfectly fine with this.
Which were in the single player RPGs because you don't have 7/15 other people scrutinizing your build and what your Red Mages did. I'd be more willing to consider Temper and Composure as more fitting RDM staples, specialy in light of the abilities you mentioned being given out to BLM and WHM. Which I'm perfectly fine with because I want the job to lean more towards magic swordsman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTSpender

For all the folks who are super-adamant about RDM being a melee/white/black hybrid because that is what it was in various other Final Fantasy games... it's also worth keeping in mind that in most cases Red Mage also ended up being terrible mid/late game in a bunch of those games. There was usually a more advanced class that totally dropped the melee and was white/black magic combo only that totally outclassed Red Mage. :P

For people who *want* a white/black, healing/damaging combo *mage*, there are a whole lot of other awesome Final Fantasy classes/flavors you can pull from. Sage is the obvious choice, but frankly I would <3 at the return of Scholar in some form, because it is *neat*. There's no need to try and force RDM in that role when there are other options for that role, and so many people who would love for RDM to be a real front-line magic fencer.

That said, it's worth keeping in mind that in a lot of the single player FF games (and I guess in FFXI for that matter) there was a big pool of black magic spells, and a big pool of white magic spells, and different classes were grated access to different amounts of spells from those pools. FFXIV is structured a lot differently, and so "here's yet another slightly different combination of those same skills" isn't going to work. Everything is going to need it's own unique, focused skillset. I think the discussion about "would you rather see RDM as a DD or debuffer" makes sense (although it may be too late for that; MNK is already kind of sneaking into the elementalist melee role). And maybe doing something vaguely DNC-ish so they can also off heal a bit would be ok. But trying to do some wonky hybrid thing so they can front line or back line and fill all roles or whatever seems a bit much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramsey

This is true, but it's true of a bunch of other jobs. Red Mage never became totally useless, it just didn't excel as much in any one area. Which is nice, which is sort of what I personally want. That said, there's obviously a difficulty with this in an MMO setting, which is why I think a degrading stance system would be a nice way to make Red Mage the jack of all trades that it ought to be.

Cycle through melee, nuking/debuffing and healing/buffing stances, and the longer you stay in one stance, the less effective skills of that type become. Encouraging the player to plug the gaps in a group and then switch to the next task.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireille

Yuna started with whm spells, but early on you could make her into a blm and retire Lulu completely. Of the FF games I have played, which is X +, only smn has been tied to whm in only one of them: X. In X the system allowed you to multi-class your characters starting around the time you left Luca. Pre-X I can't speak to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramsey

FFX is a job-less FF, though not entirely irrelevant, the importance of that relationship is slightly diminished because, as you say, you can make anyone learn anything.

That said... The relationship between mage classes and summoner has been back and forth. In Final Fantasy Tactics, It's Black Mage > Time Mage > Summoner to unlock Summoner. FFTA is Elementalist > Summoner. FF9 Eiko and Garnet are White Mages but in FF4 Rydia has Black and White magic.

There's really no strict relationship between WHM and SMN or BLM and SMN. They could easily include a new class for Summoner to be linked out of. Arcanist? Oracle? Who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draven

Jack of all trades is the way to go for Red Mage.

They should be on the front line, slashing gracefully and comboing with a sweet looking sword.

TP for weapon skills and MP for buffing party members and enfeebling enemies. Buff spells should last as long as other buffs like Protect. Enfeebles on the other hand should last a shorter time and have lower cost.

They wear medium/light armor so what will keep them alive for close encounters will be powerful single target buffs that they can cast on themselves.

Red Mage should never be as powerful in casting cures or elemental spells so as not to compete with White Mages and Black Mages. They should be there to enhance the party members effectiveness, not replace members roles.

a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramsey

Someone mentioned Sage earlier and that got me thinking. First of all it is essentially the back line Red Mage, very much akin to Scholar as it appeared in FFXI. But scholar has never been particularly powerful before that incarnation.

It would be fun to see Scholar as a class with Sage as a job. With access to mid level black and white magic, and more importantly as Sage abilities... Meteor and Recall! Recall would be hilarious and fun, randomly cast a spell, occasionally resulting in a high level cast they don't have access to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTSpender

Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramsey

This is not unequivocally true, there are examples in MMOs where pure hybrid characters work. It's actually more of a player construct, a preconceived notion that's been perpetuated that they don't work. One of the reasons it's a commonly accepted idea, is that in practice a hybrid class is more difficult to play.

One of the major issues with hybrids playing "plug the hole" is that they can never actually plug the hole with any level of effectiveness, without being broken. If a hybrid can tank as well as a tank, heal as well as a healer, or nuke as well as a nuker, what's the point of any other class?

On the other hand, make them weaker at all of those things, and they can never perform the role well enough to make the difference.

A stance that allows them to temporarily excel at a task, and diminishes over time would solve that problem, though it would require some fine tuning.

Tank's dead? Take over until they're raised and rebuffed. Suddenly a lot of people are at low health? Help out with heals. Anything else? Cycle between magic and melee damage. The reality is it's all about tuning group content so that there's enough flexibility for that class to have a use.

Bringing a Red Mage along, if they had skills like this, would be giving your group flexibility and a safety net, and perhaps losing a fraction of efficiency in a situation where everything goes 100% as planned.

Certainly, this sort of rotating through roles would require a great deal of player skill, but the reality is all classes are not equal in terms of required skill. I don't mind playing a class where people have low expectations due to a general lack of skilled players, as long as I can excel at that class enough to surprise people. Not like there isn't a precedent for classes like this in FFXI.

TL;DR

If you've already decided that it doesn't work, you're not thinking hard enough. Perhaps my solution isn't the answer, but there is an answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peptaru

And if you think that making it so they can do everyone else's job just as well by rotating a stance, perhaps you want OP rdm. lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vackashken

For me the easiest way to put it would be to make rdm like Aions Chanter class. That was a true combat mage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babydoll

I forgot about Chanter...but yeah that true! They were always usually DDing the mob..could back up heal if the cleric (or whatever it was called, i cant remember lol) died or needed secondary healer. I remember them having some badass buffs too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vackashken

Exactly word for word correct. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

This is especially true with a party size of 8, the bigger the party the more roles you can fill so the less need for a hybrid class.

To the person who suggest stances, I kind of like that idea but you shouldn't be able to change stance during combat this will solve some of the issue with players filling all rolls at a switch of a button.

I see no harm in a class that can play all roles, as long as you can't play all roles at once, this is also taking into account gear, materia and stat choices of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgeron

What if we give the red mage... red magic?

Why don´t we break the classic old concept of Red Mage third part WHM, third part BLM , another third part WAR and full part inefficent and unoriginal ?

Let the red mage focus in something different, something new never made in a MMORPG before, a class with an unique function no other class or job can imitate. Let it be something that isn´t in the old categories of "Nuker", "Damage dealer", "Healer" ect, lets make a really unique job with a real function.

FFXIV is supposed to be a new generation MMORPG, but I´m tired of this concept of new generation, impresive graphics and animations are great and I loved them, it´s true, but if SE only focus in reusing and improving what is already done, what sense it makes to call it "new" ?. They should create new things, never seen in other MMORPG, new jobs with unique function, new battle mechanics never seen before, let the red mage be something new and groundbreaking, make new and interesting jobs, not just reuse them and change two or three thinks. A Jack of all trade is an horrible and unoriginal idea, lets take 3 classes and mix them, yeah, that looks like something original isn´t it ?. It was good back in 1987 maybe, but now we have to make something new.

CONCLUSION (OR SHORT VERSION IF YOU DON´T WANT TO READ ALL THAT STUFF UP THERE)

...Sorry for the rant U.U
Anyway, what I said is, we have classes which can be used as Jack of All trades, why make a job about that ?, and what is worse, why create an unoriginal, overused and really just a mix of other classes ?. I vote to create something original. Right now I haven´t any idea but I´m on it. ^^U

Just think about that, red magic, a third type of magic never seen in other MMORPG whit original gameplay and a real function (no other class would be able to imitate that function).

Thanks for reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

I'm all for Red magic.. but what would that be.

Absorption magic, enfeebling, Dot's, transformation magic ?

You make a good suggestion but don't follow up with an actual idea, at this point in gaming its almost impossible to come up with something that hasn't been done before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgeron

Ummh, I´m thinking on it. Magic with a very strategic porpuse, it should be able to alter the reality. Teleportation, changing the position of partners, alteration of the enmity, being able to alter the strength and weakness of himself his party and even his enemies. A class which don´t need to fight or heal to be usefull, a class suit for strategy fighting. Red mage will watch every aspect of the battle and use a great variety of spells to change the odds. Making cure regen MP but consume HP when used, use some old spells like relfect and debuffs, changing magical damage for physical. It should have weaks stats and some limitations of course, and most of his spells have a good and bad effect.

A full strategy job, the kind of person who can overcome imposible situations using his mind and his sodiers, partenes and friends.

Red Magic should have a lot of diverse spells with different uses and a bad red mage would kill his party, while a good one will make a 8 men unstoppable army.

This just one idea, I´m still thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

Kind of like calculator/mathematician from FFT then ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgeron

I haven´t played FFT (in fact I just started a few days ago so I haven´t the calculator job yet lol) but maybe why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgeron

Other thing red magic could have is what I liked to call "battlefield alteration spells".

For example, gravity wouldn´t be an attacl, but rather it will create a zone where projectiles are usseles and movement is slow down or right awy imposibble. An anti magic zone spell too will be nice or a "berserker" zone, where player characters lose HP but gain an stat improvement, or a zone wich make all kind of attacks usseless but drain totally the MP and TP of the user, and there are even a lot more posibilities for spells.

The only problem is, that enemies should be remade to give them more skills and differents attacks, so new and different strategy are needed. One hit kill skill wich need the use of Red Magic special uses, long ranged and magical enemies, and even enemies which act like red mages, altering the battle in deifferents ways, being the red mages the only ones who can reverse its effects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delila

I think the fencer class could work similar to the way DNC did in XI. So fun to play.. just got tired of the animations. glowing enspells, haste move, MP moves, HP moves. really cool combo status effects. RDM spells paralyze, dia, bio, blind, Second job could be DNC or even BLU. I would like to see slow,stop,rewind etc go to time mage/green mage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I got a good chuckle out of this lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wycor

First of all people should need to know what role the Red mage would use: DD, Enhaing, Enfeebling, DD-Enhan, DD-Enfee...

I like the idea of Firon and Elgeron where Red mage should use tp for spells and some unique spells. Putting this together is hard if we consider what everyone wants, a close combat mage, because animation log, role, tp generation... etz.

Red Mage Spells:

- If Enhancing spells: "Berserk" (enhances attack), "YY" (enhances Magic potency), "Fortify" (enhances defense), "Haste" , "En-Fire,Blizzard,Aero,Thunder,Water" (adds elemental dmg to auto-atacks).

- If Enfeebling spells: "Bio", "Dia", "Gravity", "Burn", "Choke", "Shock", "Drown" (No paralyze, poison, silence)...

Usage of TP on Weapon skills:

- Weapons skills that lower elemental resistence.

- Normal Weapons Skills

~ "AAA" (Multi hit low acc.)
~ "Retribution" (deals magic dmg and return MP based on the dmg. Combo AAA: more mp drained)
~ "Soul break" 3000tp (one hit magic dmg that ignores magic defense based on on tp. Combo Retribution: DMG increased based on mp

Etz...

Usage of TP on Red Mage for spells:

-We can use the TP as a way of be able to perfom AoE on spells (Enfeebling, enhancing..).

Let's say we use "XX" ability (I'm bad for names) which have a low countdown (15sec-30sec?) and grants the red mage the effect of AoE to the next spell it uses. However apart of the mp cost the spell would have, the ability would add a TP cost (depends on which spell is used) for the spell to be AoE.

-We can use the TP as a way of be able to enhance the enfeeblings and enhancing magic adding effects.

Something in the lines we have 2 ablities: one for enhancing magic and one for enfeebling (1min recast) that adds additional effect (not much tho).

Berserk: attack + acc
Haste: speed att + store tp
"YY": m.potency + m.acc
"Fortify": defense + hp
Bio: tick dmg + lower attack
Dia: tick dmg + lower defense
Bleed: tick dmg + lower magic defense
Etz..

---------------

With this we would have a Red mage close comba like everyone wants but still been a buffer or debuffer that you would want always in the party. If i had to choose i would give it for weapon a "Rappier".

Edit: Thinking about it and so far you can't have a proper and decent Close combat mage (or hybrid) due one main issue that most people cry as soon as they see those words... "Gear swap". If you don't allow gear swap you will have: a simple DD that cast spells that never lands on target/doens't buff at all or a DD which does a s**ty dmg but cast "strong" enfeebling/enhancing spells .

Note that nowadays you can't change equip while engaged as DD which would make you chose over enfeebling/enhancing or keep disengaging -> change ekip -> cast -> change ekip -> engage (like bards do now). Which would mean that you would almost never being meleeing at all and makes the "close combat mage" meanless.

My two cents. Thanks for your time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramsey

RDM was anything but inefficient in FFXI. But furthermore, RDM is a third part these things, because that's what Red Mage is. Final Fantasy has an established job system, Red Mage has never varied wildly from its roots in this regard. FFXI was perhaps the biggest departure for the job.

Not to say that innovation is bad, but people expect something specific from a Red Mage, their love and attachment to the job is based around these expectations. Hence this thread, and half the people posting in it.

But last time SE tried to wildly depart from the expected job system... well look what happened.

Do you not understand the concept of diminishing returns? There are other limitations that could be implemented to ensure balance. It's really not OP at all, in fact, unless they can actually replace a key role permanently, which they wouldn't be able to.

They'd essentially be able to replace a healer with a group that only needs that extra healer slot for a certain part of a fight, or almost doesn't need a second healer, giving them an edge on DPS during the rest of the fight. And they'd be able to replace a DPS in a group that's having trouble with heals, but no trouble with dps, etc.

In an "ideal" raid setup, for players who have already mastered content and are just trying to go faster, RDM would if anything, be underpowered, with the possible exception of raid content where 2 WHM is absolutely necessary for part of the raid, but not the rest. In which case, bringing a RDM instead of 1 of the WHM would allow them to DPS the rest of the instance.

Right, because forcing an entire job to drag around 4 sets of unique gear sounds smart. Let's not even discuss itemization of RDM specific gear, or point allotment.

RDM would be more than pointless given this setup. What you're talking about isn't a true hybrid anymore, but a hybrid in the way that Blizzard likes to define the term. A class that can respec to any role.

Why else would RDM be pointless if it could simply respec to fit a role before a fight? We can already do this, we can already change jobs and gear between fights. Why would I bring a RDM if I can just bring someone who has BLM, WAR and DRG leveled?

Unless RDM is better than one of those, in which case, why not just bring 8 RDM?

Having the ability to switch roles in combat, if limited properly, would essentially allow a RDM to smooth over content, by turning one of the party slots into whatever is needed most at the moment. It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

Not that it would be entirely useless for other situations, it would just be outclassed by other jobs that can permanently inhabit a single role. But I'd be willing to pay that price for the versatility expected of RDM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suneater

You want to melee as RDM but how are the devs supposed to balance this? If RDM wears cloth armor, they die in 2 hits. If RDM wears leather armor, they have no mage stats or are forced into JSE/AF only. What kind of WS are they supposed to get? If their WS do more than PLD, then PLD will complain about how they have less hate management tools than RDM (getting out-cured and out WSed by a mage). At least then the forums will have something new to complain about I guess.

Jack-of-all-trades classes don't work in MMOs because they are second-rate at everything that they do and are shoehorned into only using their unique skills. I'd rather see a pure enfeebling magic/dark magic mage than XI's red mages again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinko

That's why you pick one play style and maximize it, If I play an elemental Shaman in WoW, I'm not expected to drag around gear suitable to melee or healing and nobody forces that on me either.

And what is wrong with adding choice for different play styles ?

For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

Of course SE can't even balance Paladin properly so I guess it's not a such a great idea after all.

With the ability to switch classes at any time you can do this anyway.

As I said with 8 people the need for a jack of all trades becomes less, and even less when you start talking about alliance content, there is no point taking a class that is average when you can take a class which has a specific role.

You are seriously overestimating the stat system in this game, some PGL gear for example is cloth.

They have mentioned adding class speicfic gear in the future, leather gear with mage stats could be one such example.

Why would they complain, the role of a Paladin is meant to be a tank not a damage dealer, I don't see them complaining that they can't compete with DRGs, MNKs and BLMs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wycor

Wait. No, wait. Wait wait wait.

Are you complaining why a job would be a "second rate at everything" and only count on their unique skills? Are you actually playing? Seriously? Can you tell me the difference between what you said and: Bard, warrior, monk, whitemage, black mage dragoon and paladin? Aren't those jobs used only becasuse of it's "unique skills" while they are mediocre?

Seriously what the...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gukie

Redmade are suppose to be support job not melle not casters not healers ------------------

Support job are job's that cast buff's debuffs and offensive spell when needed or defensive spell when needed*

Hence you do you have to cast cure nukes bind gravity ----- refresh* and of course you are welcome to melle or use a bow --- but remember you'll run out of MP------

To fix that problem you re technically telling se to give you 500 mp per tick just so you can attack ----

I guess you want a Mage that uses no mp and only TP---- that would not make it a mage if you use tp though-

to fix that problem se should allow REDMAGE to be engaged and recover mp at the same rate a whitemage and blackmage recover mp while not active--- but of course to support that------ so th job isnt over powered-

cure should only be cure 1---- and nukes should only be tier 1 nukes as well--- That of course would make a redmage weak though---- if he or she decides to be a redmage nuker still- hence would suck for the players who wants to nuke as rdm and buff debuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elgeron

I understand your point, but one of the reason that make the last system fails was because it hasn´t enough specialitation, CON and THM were, infact, like red mages. And a lot of the DoW were pretty similar gameplay wise. Job brought two things, the nostalgia factor and specialitation.

And, please, correct me if I´m wrong, but the original concept of RDM fail in FFXI, forcing players to use it as a healer, wich almost surpass WHM. Besides, you can already play as RDM using classes, and it is an interesting combination, specially for solo or small parties wich want to have fun.

Futhermore, you said that the FFXI´s RDM was "perhaps the biggest departure for the job".Maybe that means that the original concept have problems, and the biggest one was that, at the beggining it was one of the most usefful classes, but in the long run it lost efectivity, and only making changes it really start to function well.

We need more magic jobs and more variety. If RDM isn´t change, is better in my opinion if they implement a totally different and new job.

And believe me, saying this isn´t easy for me. Red mage is probably my favourite job. I started as CON just because it reminds me of RDM reading the description :(

I'm confused, can someone explain please? Didn't see anything about redmages being in the game >.>;