No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ARCEqWONbg

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Relative to a single GCD of healing, using Clemency is absolutely dps loss. However, Req-Clemency is far stronger than Cure II (1800 potency versus the 910 for Cure II or 877.5 for Adlo, etc). Two healer GCDs do 364 (Holy/Grav) to 416 (AoW) potency. A single Reg-HC is 375. This puts them very close when 2 non-Lily GCDs would be required, but never if less than 2 GCDs are needed.

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being dead is a pretty big dps loss.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

being dead is a pretty big dps loss.

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If you need to waste a cast on Clemency to stay alive, you have more things to worry about whether Clemency is a DPS loss or not. But nice strawman.

Tank: Healer! Halp! Even with cooldown use i'm down to under 10% HP!

Healer: But muh deeps! I shouldn't have to heal!

Tank: *Dies*

Healer: BAD TANK! U SUK! TANKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IMMUNE TO ALL DAMAGE AND NOT NEED HEALING LOL!

Tank: ...Are you retarded?

Healer: Lol vote kick and report!

DPS: Unthinkingly presses yes on vote kick without paying attention to what is going on

Same DPS, one minute later: Wait, where did the tank go?

Healer: Lol tank was bad and died lol.

FC mate DPS 2: Oh gods, i am surrounded by idiots and trolls, imma pass this on to the rest of the FC

Me upon hearing the story: ...AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


Okay, so that's a little bit of hyperbole, but not nearly as much as you might think. The overall tone is certainly accurate enough.

So yes, it's true that if your only option for staying alive is to spam Clemency then you probably have bigger problems, like the healer being one of THOSE guys, or either you or the healer having too low gear to handle mass pulls, or worse, both of you have lower gear than needed to handle it, or the DPS is so bad that the healer runs out of resources and you have to chip in on the healing yourself to not get pulped by the dozen or so mobs beating your face in. Or the healer DC'd in the middle of the pull, because server shenanigans, or crappy internet provider, or the cat stepped on the router and turned it off, or a younger sibling decided it would be funny to mess with you by pulling the power cord...

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Tank: Healer! Halp! Even with cooldown use i'm down to under 10% HP!

Healer: But muh deeps! I shouldn't have to heal!

Tank: *Dies*

Healer: BAD TANK! U SUK! TANKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IMMUNE TO ALL DAMAGE AND NOT NEED HEALING LOL!

Tank: ...Are you retarded?

Healer: Lol vote kick and report!

DPS: Unthinkingly presses yes on vote kick without paying attention to what is going on

Same DPS, one minute later: Wait, where did the tank go?

Healer: Lol tank was bad and died lol.

FC mate DPS 2: Oh gods, i am surrounded by idiots and trolls, imma pass this on to the rest of the FC

Me upon hearing the story: ...AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


Okay, so that's a little bit of hyperbole, but not nearly as much as you might think. The overall tone is certainly accurate enough.

So yes, it's true that if your only option for staying alive is to spam Clemency then you probably have bigger problems, like the healer being one of THOSE guys, or either you or the healer having too low gear to handle mass pulls, or worse, both of you have lower gear than needed to handle it, or the DPS is so bad that the healer runs out of resources and you have to chip in on the healing yourself to not get pulped by the dozen or so mobs beating your face in. Or the healer DC'd in the middle of the pull, because server shenanigans, or crappy internet provider, or the cat stepped on the router and turned it off, or a younger sibling decided it would be funny to mess with you by pulling the power cord...

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You realize that falls under "you have more things to worry about whether Clemency is a DPS loss or not", right?

You realize every time you come with these ridiculous hyperboles, you're broadcasting that whenever you die, it's always the healer's fault and never yours. The fact you keep coming up with them over the months means you haven't grown in experience as a tank after all this time, and prefer to blame healers for any of your shortcomings.

Pretty sure every healer here from your server has already blacklisted you due to your hateboner for healers.

So back to that argument then, saw that coming.

It's my fault in the sense that i try to give the party what it wants, even when the party cannot handle what it wants.

Clearly it is my fault that big pulls are demanded by a party with single-targetting DPS and a healer that thinks GCD heals are heresy and no healing should be done at all as soon as OGCD heals run out, when the wipe happens the responsibility is on my shoulders alone.

It is also my fault if i refuse to give them what they want and only pull single packs, because that is bad and i should feel bad.

It is also my fault if i try to avert a wipe by healing myself, because that's a DPS loss and i should feel bad.

It is clearly my fault when an acquaintance in a completely different party gets screwed over by a troll healer setting the tank up for a fall and leaving them stranded waiting for a replacement.

How dare i try to accomodate the wishes of the rest of the party even when it is clearly not a good idea?

How dare i not accomodate the wishes of the party because i remember what happened the last several times i did that?

In fact, how dare i play tank when i can't magically be immune to everything so nobody else has to put any effort in?

How dare i not carry the entire party of pugs whose subs i do not pay?

How dare i not take it all with a smile and nod?

How dare i be cynical after being used as a punching bag for pretty much my whole life?

How dare i not be all unwarranted optimism in the face of everything going down in flames and the blame for the mess being passed on to me as usual, even in cases where i was not even involved at all? Because shooting the messenger is the hip thing to do i guess.

How dare i use hyperbole to try to get a point across because it's easier than going over every little detail?

Taking responsibility for my own failures? Clearly this means i am an easy target for scapegoating, so now i can also take the responsibility for everybody elses failures as well!

Try to argue about anything? Now i am a horrible person.

Is this what happens to all tanks? Because i think i'm starting to understand where the term "Tank Anxiety" comes from.

It's like multiple forces all pulling you in different directions, tearing you apart and getting mad at you when you can't go in all directions simultaneously.

At this point, i should just resort to total silence and leaving at the first sign of trouble, less headaches that way.

You won't win your argument about adjusting to the wants (not needs) of the group when you are tank. You will never be right, get treated like crap and are expected to "perform" when the group cannot.

I read things like, "Why are you in a queue if you aren't going to respect your groups who want wall pulling", "stop being selfish", "stop casting Clemency, you're bringing down the group"...

I, along with other tanks, can easily counter these stupid remarks because things like the healer not healing and preferring to DPS does actually happen. We can counter these stupid remarks because DPS/Heals are disrespectful and arrogant towards tanks.

In short, it doesn't matter - tanks will be wrong no matter the case, no matter the circumstances, no matter what you do. Just keep doing you. So be it if they wanna get mad and throw a tantrum and leave. You'll still finish when they are waiting out timer and other queues. I don't ever treat groups when I am healing/DPSing like how I get treated most runs. Hell I even get belittled and ridiculed for just explaining some fights! /SMH.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

At this point, i should just resort to total silence and leaving at the first sign of trouble, less headaches that way.

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At this point, I think you should find a new job or some friends to play with if almost
every single experience you encounter is a living nightmare lol.

I dunno why healers get their panties in a wad about paladins casting Clemency. It's health we don't have to worry about. If it eases your mind somehow, you do you, bb. I got your back.

OP, perhaps you are new to the game, I am not sure. However, you should know tanks pulling large is about as expected as the rising and setting of the sun. Not even kidding and nothing screams inexperience more than a tank pulling one pack of mobs. If this is the case, or coming back from a long break of tanking, I implore you to let your party know that.

All roles, yours included, cannot perform their primary function outside of group play. Tanks can still do some minimal tanking; healers minimal healing; and DPS can somewhat use their toolkit, but nowhere near what could be considered an actual requirement. Even though dungeons aren't what most would consider challenging, most will not argue that dungeon content is when the game will actually toss a threat level high enough that allows players to perform their primary functions, which they still cannot do when a tank is pulling one pack, or otherwise keeping the threat level non-existent. It is really important that you understand that this is what makes even good apples go sour.

You will not learn how to tank until you actually tank. Pulling one group of mobs isn't tanking, it's mobbing the mobs. There are some instances where pulling one pack is acceptable such as mobs with mini-TBs, or multiple mobs capable of casting stinging AoEs. However you show your experience as a tank by learning where you can pull little, and where you can pull everything.

Properly gauge the strength of your group, and you will receive many, many comms as tank I assure you.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant here...

This is neither smart nor effective, especially if a healer cannot contribute to the damage dealing because (s)he is too busy trying to keep everybody alive and expending his/her entire MP pool in the process...

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Not gonna read through the whole 22page so I'm not sure if someone already pointed this out but I'm pretty sure I know where the problem is. What you just described is often the sign of a "bad" tank.

- If you tank competently - i.e decently geared, use appropriate CD, dodging attack ...etc... then the healer will barely need to heal you at all, even with big pull. If you see healers busting their butt and empty their MP just to keep you alive, then it's a form of silence and polite protest at your inadequate tanking.

- In dungeon DPS not supposed to take damage, unless they get hit by AOE. And frankly if a DPS is too brain death to dodge the simple AOE it won't matter if the pull is big or small anyway. Or ... it could be they're kindly tanking the mobs on the behalf of the tank who's not doing his job.

Granted, both cases may have OTHER causes beside the tank, but when two independent scenario both share a common point of failures then ... well, let's just say I agree with you someone are not playing smart nor effective, but their is a very high probability it's not your party who are.

As a healer I love it when the tank pulls the whole leg. As a Tank I'll pull the whole leg if I see the healer is adequately geared.
Usually average 10-13minute runs doing this vs 20min not.

The new dungeon I have been primarily doing single pulls because even on those I've been seeing my HP drop below 25% far too often. I'm not going to pull more when I frequently get healers on that duty that don't make me feel confident they can keep up or just aren't paying enough attention to tank HP. This is probably due to a combination of the mobs hitting harder than the other duties in expert roulette and how long we've had the previous 3 duties which are pretty much easy mode for people now due to gear ilvl.

I don't mind if you want to TRY wall pulling on dungeons with reeaally big legs when I'm rolling a healer.
But please, tell your healer you're gonna do this.
We're not mind readers, and a lot of tanks stutter pull.
If you stop while you have a lot of enemies on you that's my queue to start dropping cooldowns, so if you start moving again at that point and my tools to keep you alive are on cooldown, sorry, but it's not on the healer for what happens after that.

I know everyone likes to larp as a top savage raider when it comes to dungeons, but healer is definitely not my main class and most definitely not my best one, and I don't pretend otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re a poor healer if you don’t care about being efficient. If you hold Benediction for emergencies, it’s likely you’ll lose use of it entirely in most dungeons.

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A lot of people would disagree with you, but you're always welcome to hop over to Crystal and see how I play for yourself. :)

If I don't have to use Benediction, then that's a good thing. It means everyone's gear was just in the right spot, the tank used all of their CDs to the best of their abilities, DPS were AoEing to their fullest potential, and I had plenty of time to throw out my own AoEs.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

??? Do you understand how Excog works?

You put it on a tank so that it will proc and heal them up when they dip below 50%. Meaning you are free to do whatever while it is on them. Using it after they’ve dipped below the automatic heal threshold of the skill is a waste of the skill, and shows you don’t understand how it works.

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Okay, but I'm not using it after someone has dipped below 50%.

Excogitation is specifically designed as a safety net; a 'what if' scenario. If it doesn't go off before the timer runs out, then once again, that's very much a good thing for the same reasons I mentioned as with not having to use Benediction.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re being willfully negligent by ignoring your instant cast spells, and misusing skills like Excog.

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Neither of which I'm doing or advocating, so what's your point?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You do know that people can post on here with alt characters and not necessarily their mains, right? For all you know, PyurBlue could have level 80 healers and heal Savage content on them. But if you want advice from a level 80 healer, I have all 3 to level 80 and have healed all content from dungeons to Ultimate: you’re healing incorrectly if you save your instants for emergencies.

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Hiding behind an alt/another account/whatever a relatable situation is never a good look as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe what you're doing works for you, and if so, that's great, but after playing this game since ARR, my experience says otherwise. Needless risks just aren't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Tank busters are not common in dungeons. Regen and Asylum are often enough to get through a pull if the tank is decent and the DPS are awake. That gives me 20 to 30 seconds to do..... DPS.

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They are in Shadowbringers, and many mobs hit like a truck, as well. I'm not even arguing against the latter; you're talking to someone that was a chronic stance dancer.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

A healer who lets people drop without them dying is actually someone who knows precisely what he is doing.
It's fine to play it a bit safe if it's your first run but after that you should have an idea about which cast is the tankbuster, which is the party-wide damage and which mechanic is completely avoidable.

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People learn and memorize at different rates. For me, it tends to take one. For others, it might take several. It's not universal.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Absolutely not.
A healer that is saving strong instant/ oGCD heals for emergencies definitely doesn't know what he's doing. They are there to prevent emergencies from happening in the first place while freeing up time to dps which -again- avoids emergency situations in the first place - dead mobs can't kill you.
Relying on hard-casted heals is the most inefficient way to heal past a certain level and a last resort when other options are exhausted. This isn't about messed-up priorities or laziness, it's simply the most efficient way to heal. Period.
Letting instants and oGCDs sit is a bad habit. It's fine for someone new and inexperienced, escpecially if they came over from a game where you needed to save them and healers were much weaker compared to incoming damage. But part of learning the healer role is using your full kit to it's full potential and that includes utilizing instants and oGCDs as often as possible to maximize dps time without frontloading them.

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If it's inefficient, how come I don't run out of MP? How come I never have trouble healing anyone, but have plenty of time to DPS?

Let's say this is whatever the latest alliance raid may be, and I'm playing Scholar. If I'm wasting spells like Lustrate because I'm too tunnel-visioned to care about the tank until they drop below 50%, what will I have left for other party members that missed crucial mechanics and are seconds away from death during the middle of a DPS race? Adlo and Physick won't go off in time; not enough for multiple people.

That was my last Copied Factory run. Difference was, I saved my emergency spells and helped prevent a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Hello there. PLD main here, previously AST/SCH in SB, but I didn't do the endgame savage content then.

This is the exact opposite of what you should be telling people.
As long as my healers keep me alive, I don't care if I am at 1 HP or 100,000 HP.

Healers should mainly use oGCDs to heal, and DPS while they don't need to heal.

More damage from healers = more mobs dead = less heals needed = faster dungeon/trial/raid

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I don't use my oGCDs as a crutch and still have plenty of time to DPS without risks.

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Originally Posted by Videra

You evidently know very little about healing then, yikes. Tanks do not need to be topped off at all times in most of the content in this game. Letting the health of your tank dip to 50% is totally fine and common in the majority of cases, especially when you have tanks like Warrior and Gunbreaker - who can bolide or holmgang to cheese busters. Then you just pop a regen or tetra onto them. If you're Scholar, you probably already set down recitation excog. You have options, OGCDs don't cost mana and are not there for emergencies, and regens are fairly powerful. There are of course cases where you want the party to be topped off, but these are fewer and farther in between. Quake in Hades EX comes to mind. So use your OGCDs when you need to put a little spot healing down and DPS 'till your heart's content.

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I'm pretty sure I know more about it than someone that has a one year-old account with all three healers still at level 70.

While accidents happen, you should never, EVER, scare your tank into using their invuln like that, especially with their lengthy timers.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Oh god stop with this silly argument. Astro has a skill that legit mutes your entire point in Essential Dignity:
Restores target's HP.
Cure Potency: 400
Potency increases up to 1,100 as the target's HP decreases.
Maximum Charges: 2

That type of logic doesn't fly especially now with all of the healer changes. Healing has become so boring and mute that keeping everyone topped off is a waste of time and your resources. I'd much rather have a healer helping me dps down a boss to make everyone's life easier then giving me the juice of life constantly cutting down our dps by 25%. They have tools in OGCDs to help the party and the damage output from most bosses is enough to manage even with those.

Your logic just won't fly in Savage or even EX when you can't meet dps checks because you're too focused on topping the tank off when you could be instead getting some extra hits to meet a dps check.

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Essential Dignity is an emergency skill. That's exactly why its potency ramps up when the target has less DPS. That justifies what I'm saying; it doesn't deny it.

We're not even talking about Savage or EX. This is a thread about dungeons. Besides, Yoshida himself confirmed years ago that healer DPS isn't a factor in raids.

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Originally Posted by Zenkii

When I play healer. Esp in expert dungeons/raids and trial fights. I rarely use a GCD heal. I actually challenge myself to see if I can go a whole run with no GCD heals. I guess I'm just lazy. But then I'm also doing 6-7K dps to. I dont even main healer or play it that much.

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There's a difference between setting a challenge for oneself and the type of player I'm referring to. Still, this isn't something I'd wanna do unless I'm playing with friends.

Look, if what y'all are doing works for you, that's fine, and I'm sure it does in the context of playing with friends, but it's this exact type of advice that ends up filling duty finder with healers that think they're a green DPS. That's not something I want to see more than I already do.

Personally, I don't mind the big pulls. They get the dungeon over quicker.

However, tank and healer should both make sure that they're ready for big pulls. I've had several dungeon runs where the tank pulls everything and can't handle it, or the healer can't keep up with the damage being dealt to the tank. So then everyone gets wiped and we have to start over, wasting time. All it takes is a simple couple seconds to confirm that your tank and healer are both on the same page. Because what's the sense in doing a big pull is one of them can't handle it? All that does is waste time.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The new dungeon I have been primarily doing single pulls because even on those I've been seeing my HP drop below 25% far too often. I'm not going to pull more when I frequently get healers on that duty that don't make me feel confident they can keep up or just aren't paying enough attention to tank HP. This is probably due to a combination of the mobs hitting harder than the other duties in expert roulette and how long we've had the previous 3 duties which are pretty much easy mode for people now due to gear ilvl.

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My first time in it, I walled to walled. Are you using Rampart, Reprisal, Arms Length, and all of your tools? Not all at once, of course, but in general. There shouldn't be a problem with you dying. Healer also could be zzzin, so who knows.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

You won't win your argument about adjusting to the wants (not needs) of the group when you are tank. You will never be right, get treated like crap and are expected to "perform" when the group cannot.

I read things like, "Why are you in a queue if you aren't going to respect your groups who want wall pulling", "stop being selfish", "stop casting Clemency, you're bringing down the group"...

I, along with other tanks, can easily counter these stupid remarks because things like the healer not healing and preferring to DPS does actually happen. We can counter these stupid remarks because DPS/Heals are disrespectful and arrogant towards tanks.

In short, it doesn't matter - tanks will be wrong no matter the case, no matter the circumstances, no matter what you do. Just keep doing you. So be it if they wanna get mad and throw a tantrum and leave. You'll still finish when they are waiting out timer and other queues. I don't ever treat groups when I am healing/DPSing like how I get treated most runs. Hell I even get belittled and ridiculed for just explaining some fights! /SMH.

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This isn't a tank exclusive issue. All jobs have predetermined requirements that should be met:

- Healers should always be casting (weaving DPS)
- DPS should know their rotation and perform it correctly (no ice mage)
- Tank should pull as many packs as they can handle

This isn't a choice, this is what the community (and by extension the developers) has determined as optimal, and therefore correct play. I'm not saying that every player should have the ability to do this, simply that those rules are the end goal for a player learning the game, and that players should strive to work towards them, and that ignoring them, complaining about them and refuting them would make you a bad player.

The best thing for anyone to do is to learn these established rules (think of them like PF strats that the community has generally agreed on), and be knowledgable enough to know when a party member is wrong in their thinking (i.e. yes clemency is a DPS loss, it is an emergency heal, and if it is needed then it should be used, if you are spamming it please stop, but ignore the WHM who calls you out for using it once).

I really hope 'ice mages' aren't a thing in this game. Is Level III mage just as bad? Where its Fire III and Blizzard III over and over? I don't BLM too much.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I really hope 'ice mages' aren't a thing in this game. Is Level III mage just as bad? Where its Fire III and Blizzard III over and over? I don't BLM too much.

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I don't know so much in Shadowbringers, but they definitely have been in the past (I have actually seen someone say "I only use Ice spells so I don't run out of mana"). Personally, I equate people who single pull in dungeons (with exception of first-timers and people who have actively communicated their discomfort) to ice mages. People who are willfully ignorant and don't care about the rest of the party's time.

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Clemency is NOT a dps gain. If it was, PLD's would be using it for optimization. It's not, therefore it's a dps loss.

I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but if a HEALER can't HEAL as well as DPS, then they are bad healer, literally you have so many cooldowns this should never be an issue. Tanks using MITIGATION properly can allow healers to dps easier.

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If you need to waste a cast on Clemency to stay alive, you have more things to worry about whether Clemency is a DPS loss or not. But nice strawman.

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Aaaaaaaaand there it is.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

I'm pretty sure I know more about it than someone that has a one year-old account with all three healers still at level 70.

While accidents happen, you should never, EVER, scare your tank into using their invuln like that, especially with their lengthy timers.

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No, just.. no. As a tank myself, if I see a healer instantly throw all his heals my way if I drop a couple % in HP I know it's a bad one. You can easily let tanks drop to 10%-ish and get them to full with a single Essential Dignity and DPS in the meantime. This way you are contributing way more to the run than by just sitting back and trying to keep everyone at 100%.

Besides - as a WAR main I can easily heal myself up to full every 30 seconds with NF in large pulls. So if you barely keep me alive inbetween in favor of your own DPS - that is a job well done. And that is what I have in mind when I chain my cooldowns.

Troll post!

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

I'm pretty sure I know more about it than someone that has a one year-old account with all three healers still at level 70.

While accidents happen, you should never, EVER, scare your tank into using their invuln like that, especially with their lengthy timers.



Essential Dignity is an emergency skill. That's exactly why its potency ramps up when the target has less DPS. That justifies what I'm saying; it doesn't deny it.

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I've been playing since ARR and I'm posting on my old main. Try again. There is no such thing as an emergency skill, your OGCDs are not 'crutches', this is literally how healers are played. You treat GCD heals like the devil (while acknowledging that they're a necessary evil), and primarily DPS while weaving in your COMPLETELY FREE OGCD heals. Also, I tank too! I can certainly say that I make the most liberal use of invulns I possibly can, because they are cooldowns to be used. Hallowed goes first on big pulls, and so on. And Living Dead is a sweet 20 seconds of invuln if co-ordinated properly.

Also, what's this unhealthy obsession you have with trying to prove you're right to the point that you stalk other people's lodestones?

This is why they removed TP, so we can pull everything and spam aoes like TRUE HEROES!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

This is neither smart nor effective, especially if a healer cannot contribute to the damage dealing

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The damage gained from the AOE of 2 damage dealers and a tank more than makes up for less healer damage. Please use critical thinking skills TIA.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

you are committed to it for 90 minutes

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No. Just no. Dungeons take around 20 minutes. Maybe up to 30 if someone is new to mechanics. Sounds like you are just not respecting people's time, and have a preconceived notion of what a dungeon run should look like.


This is an incredibly rude post that disregards basic facts about how the game works. Go away.

I have actually been in dungeons that lasted like 70+ minutes..

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

tank is pulling multiple skirmishes at once, even as much as an entire leg of a dungeon. This is neither smart nor effective

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It's extremely smart and effective as it allows the DPS to AOE multiple packs instead of only one at a time.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

especially if a healer cannot contribute to the damage dealing because (s)he is too busy trying to keep everybody alive and expending his/her entire MP pool in the process.

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Healer DPS isn't enough to make single pack pulls efficient compared to big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

It's even more irritating when I as a tank am being asked to pull more than one skirmish, and people start getting salty or even quitting because they don't like my pace.

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When it's clear that the tank is capable of pulling more, and the tank refuses to do so, the tank is not being a team player. Salt stocks will naturally be on the rise in that situation.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

IT'S NOT A RACE, PEOPLE!!!

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No one said it is?

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

When you do a dungeon, you are committed to it for 90 minutes, and while it should never take nearly that long with a decent party, there's no need to attempt to blitz through it and risk a wipe, either.

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Wrong. I am committed to that dungeon for the minimum time it takes to clear it.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

Stop trying to be a hero, and concentrate your attacks on one enemy at a time! I guarantee, they will go down a lot quicker individually, than if you try to take out 213128901 of them at once.

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10 enemies. Each takes 30 seconds to kill with single target abilities. That's ~300 seconds, or 5 minutes.
10 enemies. Each takes 70 seconds to kill with AOE, but they all die within seconds of each other. That's 70-90 seconds.
It's not hard to see why single target is the wrong way to do it.
But hey, if you like slow pulls where groupmates use ONLY single target abilities and the dungeon takes 30+ minutes every time..... Trusts are a thing now.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

No, just.. no. As a tank myself, if I see a healer instantly throw all his heals my way if I drop a couple % in HP I know it's a bad one. You can easily let tanks drop to 10%-ish and get them to full with a single Essential Dignity and DPS in the meantime. This way you are contributing way more to the run than by just sitting back and trying to keep everyone at 100%.

Besides - as a WAR main I can easily heal myself up to full every 30 seconds with NF in large pulls. So if you barely keep me alive inbetween in favor of your own DPS - that is a job well done. And that is what I have in mind when I chain my cooldowns.

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If you ever let a tank drop to 10% before throwing a heal on them, you're worse than a healer that doesn't DPS. With latency and other factors, 10% is just asking for a wipe.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I have actually been in dungeons that lasted like 70+ minutes..

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...I'm so sorry you had to deal with that lol good lord (assuming it wasnt intentional or some special circumstance that made you wanna stay in for that long lol)

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Originally Posted by CazzT

If you ever let a tank drop to 10% before throwing a heal on them, you're worse than a healer that doesn't DPS. With latency and other factors, 10% is just asking for a wipe.

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It's really not bad to allow your tank to be at low HP as long as you don't let them die. You don't need to keep your tank constantly topped.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It's really not bad to allow your tank to be at low HP as long as you don't let them die. You don't need to keep your tank constantly topped.

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If you've seen anything in this thread so far, this is a contentious view point lmao. If you can keep your tank alive is all that matters to me!

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

If you've seen anything in this thread so far, this is a contentious view point lmao. If you can keep your tank alive is all that matters to me!

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I use to play MTG a bunch when I was younger, and I think the same rule applies to this game, as the rule I was told for MTG.
"The only HP that matters is the last one."

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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You need to relax. I'm not gonna reply to everything in this response because honestly I just don't care enough. But, I need to address a few things you brought up...so, if the healer is able to get through content and keep everybody reasonably healed up, they are NOT a bad healer. To heck with the rest of your superfluous standards and nitpicks, speaking as a Savage/EX Tank myself, if my healer can keep us healed up and allow us to progress through content, hey are a fine healer. Period. You're really coming off as an elitist right now. Also, speaking as a Tank who literally ALWAYS pulls wall to wall, if a Tank chooses to pull mob by mob, it's not a "snail's pace", stop being disrespectful. Some players prefer to do things differently and know what they can and cannot handle, and if their role gives them the authority to control just that, RESPECT THAT, or you have no business playing with a team. Pulling wall to wall isn't required to clear any content, and that's all that needs to be said.

Some of you guys need to really stop treating this game like some nonsense office setting/work setting. It's so incredibly annoying, all you care about is efficiency, productivity, no mistakes, do things this way and only this way, you must abide by my subjective standards. If that's the poisonous outlook you choose to have, then you need to keep that to yourself, and stop trying to push it onto others online who are just trying to have a fun time playing Final Fantasy. If they are clearing content, they are fine.

I do napkin math healing. I use exactly what you need when you need it according to the on the fly skills available to me in correlation to the situation at hand. I see no point in holding onto "emergency heals" in the same way I don't see the point in using them untimely either. The mark of a good, experienced healer in this game isn't the one that adopts one singular playstyle of their choosing for all content. It's the one that can actually adjust properly when take stock of everything they're working with: the instance, the players and everything in-between.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It's really not bad to allow your tank to be at low HP as long as you don't let them die. You don't need to keep your tank constantly topped.

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Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.

People like the OP are why we urgently need all of the remaining rejoinings.

I think it's important to be flexible. To me that's the big takeaway from this lengthy discussion.

Every player knows where they stand and where they want to be in terms of playing their respective job. Unless a player is being completely ignorant, it is impossible not to see the differences in ability and overall performance within each group. When there are such observations, it will be up to the individual player whether or not to adjust the way they play their jobs. No amount of shouting, yelling or well-worded arguments on this forum will change that.

I would say completing an instance faster by being efficient is an objective, not a goal. By performing the duty, each member tries to achieve this in their own way. The goal, by which I mean results in duty completion, is to reach the end and defeat the last obstacle. It is safe to say that, in general, this requires both the tank and the healer be alive - meaning they need to be able to work together.

When you have a new team, made up of people you don't know and have never played with, you may well have to let go of all your preconceived notions and simply prepare for anything and everything. Hopefully, you can all work, as a team, to complete the duty.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.

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I would but unfortunately SE wants 2 dps and 1 healer for a dungeon, not 3 dps :P

Jests aside, dropping below 50% doesn't mean you're in danger. That's something best decided seperately with each case.
I had paper tanks and one GCD was enough to bring them from a comfortable 70%+ to danger zone. No choice left but to babysit.

On the other hand, if I have a tank who knows what he's doing he'll definitely drop below 50% a couple of times and may even stay there for some time without being in any real danger. There's a difference between low HP and actually being in danger.
If I can finish off some mobs before needing to heal, I'd rather kill them and then heal instead of healing and leaving more mobs alive while doing it.
If I can finish my cast before needing to heal, I'll do that.
If I can push back healing for a couple of seconds until an oGCD is coming up instead of doing it inefficiently through Cure II/ Bene II/ Adlo, I'll do that.

I heal as neccessary to keep everyone alive and if healing isn't neccessary yet, I see no reason to babysit. With a decent tank less than 50% HP usually isn't risky at all.
If I have to heal more to keep the tank out of danger, so be it. But if I don't, I won't. Simple.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

They are in Shadowbringers, and many mobs hit like a truck, as well. I'm not even arguing against the latter; you're talking to someone that was a chronic stance dancer.

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Perhaps we are looking at this from a different perspective? From my angle, I'm looking at Expert Roulettes. 1 or 2 heals + regen with Asylum/Tetra/Temperance roughly on CD per 2 pack pull.

Here's an example from the 3rd double trash pull in Akadaemia (The one with the large number of Onion mobs right after the two sharks) - 1 unneeded GCD heal that was merely me being overly cautious in a pull that was a minute start to finish. ~28k dps, 2.8k hps with 12% overhealing. 11 straight DPS GCDs (10 Holies, 1 Misery).

The overwhelming majority of Expert pulls are like this currently with only the first pull of Akadaemia being a standout currently. Prior to that, the last iffy pull that springs to mind was the long pull after the second boss in Hell's Lid with the 2 cleaving water snake things, and that was mostly due to the chance of a tank getting the group cleaved. Otherwise meh, my healing isn't being stretched by any degree by this trash.

I will be the first to admit though, leveling dungeons tend to hit significantly harder mostly through the virtue of it not being possible to overgear them to the same degree. Whilst I don't think SHB's leveling dungeons are as rough as HW's, the healer changes pre level cap didn't really do them any favours there either. Perhaps this is the angle your coming from? That'd certainly make more sense.

As far as the stance dancing thing goes, /shrug. I'd like to think that I know a thing or two about DPSing in dungeons. Once I make a proper effort in Grand Cosmos I should get my top 5 or so rank back.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

If I don't have to use Benediction, then that's a good thing. It means everyone's gear was just in the right spot, the tank used all of their CDs to the best of their abilities, DPS were AoEing to their fullest potential, and I had plenty of time to throw out my own AoEs.

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Why sit on it though? It's a measly 3 minutes now, you've got it up every other trash pull and it's super powerful. You don't have to let a tank drop to 10% or whatever to get good value from it.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

Excogitation is specifically designed as a safety net; a 'what if' scenario. If it doesn't go off before the timer runs out, then once again, that's very much a good thing for the same reasons I mentioned as with not having to use Benediction.

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Again, it's one of SCH's most powerful tank healing tools and the CD is even shorter. You're tying a hand behind your own back by not getting value out of it IMHO. Throw it on as the previous pack dies and it'll be most of the way through it's CD by the time the next pack is planted allowing an easy 2 hits per pull with it.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

Let's say this is whatever the latest alliance raid may be, and I'm playing Scholar. If I'm wasting spells like Lustrate because I'm too tunnel-visioned to care about the tank until they drop below 50%, what will I have left for other party members that missed crucial mechanics and are seconds away from death during the middle of a DPS race? Adlo and Physick won't go off in time; not enough for multiple people.

That was my last Copied Factory run. Difference was, I saved my emergency spells and helped prevent a wipe.

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I'm not hugely keen on this approach mostly because particularly in the current 24 man, there's a point where you end up spending so much of your time and effort focusing on saving the 'bads' from the bad that at best you're costing yourself GCDs and at worst, you're diverting your own attention away from mechanics coming your way. I'll merrily bail out someone who's worth saving, but at the risk of sounding utterly horrible, most of these people repeatedly failing mechanics in Factory just aren't worth saving. It's sadly more efficient to just keep DPSing and raise them as Swiftcast or downtime allows.

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Originally Posted by rachcouture

We're not even talking about Savage or EX. This is a thread about dungeons. Besides, Yoshida himself confirmed years ago that healer DPS isn't a factor in raids.

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Please keep in mind that he confirmed this during a raid tier which REQUIRED healer DPS to clear in the time that it did.

Please don't read this as me having a go btw <3 Healer DPS in dungeons is always an interesting topic imho and other peoples views are appreciated even if they don't align with my own.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I use to play MTG a bunch when I was younger, and I think the same rule applies to this game, as the rule I was told for MTG.
"The only HP that matters is the last one."

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Whilst technically true, it's just not that simple once you add in the human element. With a tank that you know and share trust with? Sure, there might be gains to be made there. But with a pug tank you're just as likely to end up with them dropping their rotation and cooldowns in a panic resulting in a pretty sizeable net loss overall.

There is honestly little need to let a tank go super low. I aim for around 30-40% but still have a world top 10 dungeon DPS ranking (And hopefully top 5 once I pull my finger out and work on a decent Grand Cosmos run). There's far more to be gained by pre dotting, thoughtful CD usage and aggressive Holy usage/movement. If I really wanted to try and push for higher ranking I'd be reaching for a DNC/NIN out of the FC rather than trying to wring it out of the poor tank's HP bar ;)