As of now there is no reason to gear a healer and a tank in a static other then to meet minimum gear level requirement.
How do we feel about tank damage right now?
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10-01-2019, 11:49 PMBravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 12:08 AMReynhartI'm not so sure of that. I think most people stay away from tanks not because it's hard, but simply because they don't want to take that responsibility, even before they actually tried tanking in this game. So, that's not people that would be "pushed away from tanking", they never were tanks to begin with. Sure, you might lose some current tanks by making it harder, but, you should also consider that you may have some players that liked to tank, but moved towards DPS because they found it a little boring when fights are so scripted. And those people would probably come back to tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
Also, keep in mind that a less scripted fight is less scripted for everyone, making the content feels "new" for a longer time, since you'd always have some kind of unexpected outcome.
That's why mitigation skills should scale with gear as much as DPS instead of being flat potencies. Def/MDef and HP are not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 12:50 AMlillucarioYou do realize that tanks right now do their primary role of holding aggro by doing damage. That is literally what they changed their tank stances to be. Like others have said almost all bosses move themselves for us so that part of tanking is virtually gone. And mitigating tankbusters or AOE damage is as simple as pressing one button. What are we doing inbetween all that? DPS. Tanks are literal blue DPS and the changes they made this expansion further show that. If you refuse to accept that then that's on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
Same for healers. They were given so many oGCD heals that if one were to solo heal a fight they could have something for most of the mechanics thrown at them with very minimal use of GCD heals. Have both healers now adding something to healing? You're left with a bunch of downtime for both of them now and that makes up a lot of a fight. So now they're both doing nothing but mostly DPSing while still tending to their primary role when needed with ease because of their ogcds. No healer thinks to only DPS 100% of the time in savage fights without throwing out as much as a single heal and one that does so is obviously bad. -
10-02-2019, 12:54 AMBarretOblivionIm not going to agree with the healers have more OGCD heals. They actually have about the same from SB and they are now gear priority over tanks because they won't have to heal as much as they would at mini level equalling more offensive spells they can throw out. In Titan specifically healers need to be geared to hit the healing check during final phase as there is a ton of damage being thrown out at the party and the group must be healed quickly during all of this. This is going to be the few moments however that healers need to GCD heal, other than that not enough damage is going out towards the party elsewhere for healers not to easily group heal with OGCDs. They need to ramp up the frequency of the healing required.. but then we get into the problem that healers won't be able to DPS much which means group DPS is going to drop. We are already at a spot where most jobs need to be dealing a solid amount of damage to hit DPS checks, and next tier the DPS requirement will increase. IF healers aren't able to DPS more than someone has to make up that difference, DPS have a cieling that they are soon going to hit, and at some point Tanks have to take over to help, this is just a fact unless they buff DPS... again. A complete overhaul of tanking would be required to change tanking... but the changes they made in ShB says they want tanks to be "blue DPS" which isn't bad persay but adding some more tank specific mechanics in the fight at least for the OT to do would help... alot in fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 01:13 AMKabooa
Gear priority is a player made issue. And it only matters if you're week 1 pushing. I'd argue it only matters if you're world racing. The amount of benefit gear grants you on a DPS scale might possibly be the difference between a wipe and a clear during week 1, but each wing also has a very clear cut capability thresh hold that matters more.
The first thing we decided as a static with the news of the coffer system was to decide how to dole it out, and admittedly, we aren't a week 1 static. However, I'd wager neither are most of you. Some of you, certainly. Most? No.
With that understanding in mind, we decided that coffers follow a casual BIS EP/GP system. Namely - if the coffer has your BIS, you roll on it. If you've won more pieces than the average in our group, the lower average loot winner has priority. In this manner gear has been divided evenly-ish, though in some cases gear has been passed, based on what coffers have dropped, what people want to buy with books. We're probably going to take a better look at Accessory coffers come next tier as the potential for duping was high and we hit a few weeks where the coffers were offjob fodder.
I know this might seem mind boggling, but you don't have to follow a gear priority system if you aren't racing. If you're just a standard, reclear as much as you can each week static, you can literally give the gear to anyone and the difference it will make is minimal. -
10-02-2019, 03:39 AMBravely_Default
I mean you can also choose not to use certain party buffs (reprisal, nascent flash, heart of light) if you arnt doing ultimate content, the difference is minimal. What it comes down to is optimization. Dps literally have a 1.5X damage multiplier over healers and tanks right now. In the sight of fairness players only gimp themselves in the long run of quicker clears for short term satisfaction. Even groups attempting a week 5 first clear of E2S could REALLY use those accessories from E1S for the dps. 3 accessories for a 20 level increase each is a LOT more damage than you might think.
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10-02-2019, 03:43 AMBarretOblivionHmmm... I think you are missing something here. If your group plans on going for ultimate, your group needs to clear the last fight within a few weeks after release. Its in fact extremely important DPS players get prioirity not just to actually clear content, but it also gives your group cushions to where you gain the ability to if you get a death you can still recover. If you go all whilly nilly and give the gear to tanks/healers over DPS you will wipe more at small deaths within the first 5 weeks (7 weeks when next tier releases). Its not racing, its having a goal of clearing the tier at X point. Plus if you are hitting the third/fourth fight its important that those players are getting geared. Again, tanks are at the bottom of totem poll... by a large amount now when it comes to gearing priorities for statics. Im in an FC where our Alpha team cleaered week 1 and did the math, tanks were to wait last for gear priority because every other role gains so much more. DPS scale really well with better gear, Healers have to heal less with better gear meaning both thier offensive spells do more, but they also do them more often. Tanks gain a very small amount of damage and our HP increase is worthless besides gaining 1 extra auto attack from death from raid bosses. I'm sorry but the proof is pretty evident that Tanks scaling is off right now, very off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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10-02-2019, 03:48 AMReynhartNo, you're not. If you have your static, you're free to try any content at your own pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
And since Ultimate is always synced, clearing it 6 months after release is as worthy of praise as clearing within a few weeks. -
10-02-2019, 03:49 AMBarretOblivionOT skills sure, party wide mitigation???? Heck no, you better be doing that at all times in Savage especially in Titan. Final phase is incredibly healing intensive, so if you aren't mitigating that damage your group will DIE. Same can happen in parts of Leviathan during Stormy or his enrage calm before the storm. If you are a tank and not using your party wide mitigation, you are doing it very wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 03:59 AMBarretOblivionIf you plan on going in day 1 and prepare for a few weeks or months then yes, you are. If you plan on clearing it before the next raid tier comes out you are. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-02-2019, 04:34 AMKabooaIt takes at most 8 weeks to get your weapon and potential BIS chest piece (Which aren't BIS for everyone).Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
The weapon itself is a minor DPS boost. You can clear ultimate with Tome Upgraded weapons.
This also completely ignores the fact that even if you're a week 4 wing 4 clearer, you could have still given the gear to anyone and be fine.
If you're coming into the game late, that's another story, but other than Tome capping being based on weeks since patch drop, I don't see a way to alleviate that. You came in late. You gotta get your stuff. There's a ton of catch up opportunity, but a completely fresh static has its own issues it'll have to overcome coming in late.
If it's just you, well, you can be fed every coffer and be nearly 470 in a week. -
10-02-2019, 06:13 AMBarretOblivionIt likely won’t take 8 weeks but you are proving my point to get titan done early. The weapon is enough of an upgrade that is important you get it. Every little bit counts in ultimateQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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10-02-2019, 06:31 AMKabooaAnd week 4 titan doesn't require "ONLY DPS GETS GEAR".Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
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10-02-2019, 08:20 AMBravely_Default
Technically speaking none of the weeks do. It's all about what is OPTIMUM. Dps is always needed no matter what. Higher hp and higher healing is only needed when mistakes are made. (Not 100% of the time!) Hp has always been a partial dump stat, you only need as much as it takes to survive, which is why tanks took full slaying accessories in the 60 era.
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10-02-2019, 12:37 PMQuorThis attitude, the "optimum above all" is exactly what killed WoW. I'll fight to the end to see that bullshit kept out of FF14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 02:29 PMLythFinal CoilQuote:
Originally Posted by Quor
It's actually completely historically accurate. Interestingly, back in Final Coil, some very good players on my server kept a spreadsheet of their, er, performance metrics. It's still floating around. Most of the names on it are oddly familiar. There was a significant amount of overlap between WAR and BRD in Final Coil, mainly in the 425-475 range.
Surprisingly, toggling Defiance was actually part of optimising dps in ARR, especially during your opener. The reason for this was because of Unchained. You used Unchained to remove the damage penalty, allowing you to take advantage of the stance's crit boost and giving you temporary access to IB. You'd toggle it back off as Unchained was finishing. The arrival of Deliverance in HW changed this because Defiance had a parry bonus instead (not to mention the arrival of FC/Deci), but in ARR it gave you crit.
But the single biggest reason was because of STR accessories. Damage was tuned around the idea that tanks were going to be using VIT accessories. What SE didn't predict was that some tanks would be using melee dps accessories. During the WF clear of T9 by BG, Sirius Taco had about 6k HP with defiance off, barely more than the melee dps. Why? STR accs, complete with an i90 Vortex Ring of Slaying.
Granted, there were still people at the time arguing that tanks should stack parry. The general playerbase at the time was so used to misinformed tanks that if you showed up in STR/crafted and tanked well, minds were blown. Good times.
The value of tanking
I'm not really sure where the Aurum Vale reference comes from - it's not raid content, for starters, and is an oddball even as far as dungeons are concerned (but I think that's also a function of it being a 1.x dungeon). It actually plays much more like PotD/HoH in that careful pulls are relatively important. Is it an interesting bit of tanking content? Yes. Does it impact whether players presently consider good tanking or healing to be high value tasks? Not really.
In current content, you definitely see the difference between a better dps and a weaker dps. You make the dps checks allowing you to clear. You clear faster. Even if you put gear on a weaker dps, you get more value out of them, irrespective of how mediocre their play is.
It's not as clear cut for tanks and healers. Most tank and healer 'checks' are mechanics checks. You're expected to figure them out quickly and get back to smoothing things out to meet the raidwide dps check. And in fairness, they're usually fairly simple. It's never a case of "if my tank had better gear, surviving this tankbuster would be cleaner." It's always "if our dps had better gear, we would make this raidwide check."
Granted, the former will never, ever be the case as long as we have invulns.
But even on a more basic level, it doesn't really matter if you're a good 'tank'. i mean yeah, you need to remember the four tankbuster timestamps so that you press the button to survive. But because boss movement is mostly scripted, you rarely run into a situation where your tank positions things badly (you'd almost have to try deliberately). There's never a sense of "when this player tanks for us, I do more dps because they have the best positioning setups that I've seen."
How do you provide more value to your team as a tank? The content has to be designed to allow for it, first. it doesn't matter if it's about pushing more dps or setting up the fight so that your teammates do more dps. Someone interested in self-improvement is always going to be interested in finding more ways to provide value to their team. If the role doesn't allow for it, they're going to either swap roles or find a game that allows them to do so. -
10-02-2019, 03:12 PMQuorYes, I'm aware of that technique. Open with Infuriate into Unchained, which would spend your Wrath stacks, setting your crit rate at 0% until you used five of Maim, Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Storm's Path or Storm's Eye, in whatever amount. Meaning you effectively had 10% crit and no damage loss for all of 3 seconds. Given you had actual threat issues back then (even with a NIN cooking the books for you) you were opening with BB combo (4% crit at ~7.3s into the fight) then Storm's Eye (8% crit at ~14.5s into the fight) and then you'd get your final stack of Wrath around the 17th or 18th second and then Unchained would wear off and you'd drop Defiance because the 25% (or 35% earlier on) damage reduction was just too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Yeah, it was a period of learning and experimentation.Quote:
You'd toggle it back off as Unchained was finishing. The arrival of Deliverance in HW changed this because Defiance had a parry bonus instead (not to mention the arrival of FC/Deci), but in ARR it gave you crit.
But the single biggest reason was because of STR accessories. Damage was tuned around the idea that tanks were going to be using VIT accessories. What SE didn't predict was that some tanks would be using melee dps accessories. During the WF clear of T9 by BG, Sirius Taco had about 6k HP with defiance off, barely more than the melee dps. Why? STR accs, complete with an i90 Vortex Ring of Slaying.
Granted, there were still people at the time arguing that tanks should stack parry. The general playerbase at the time was so used to misinformed tanks that if you showed up in STR/crafted and tanked well, minds were blown. Good times.
I've seen more groups blow up in Aurum Vale, and more people just outright leave for that matter, than any other content in this game. I've had mentor roulette's against stuff old EX primals, old BCoB stuff, Shinryu EX, savage Alexander and more where people stick it out and get it done (or at least give it a number of really solid tries). Easily 1 out of every 3 AV's I get into someone either just up and leaves, or I queue in to replace someone that just up and left as soon as they saw it was AV. Most of the time this is a result of people not knowing how to deal with that first room. A tank who knows how to deal with that first room makes the run a breeze, but if you have an AV run with a tank who doesn't know how to deal with that room, then you're in for a bad time. Hence, most people will take the 30 minute penalty over suffering through another series of first-room wipes with an ignorant or bad tank. In other words, if you get AV with a bad tank, you very quickly learn how different that experience is compared to AV with a good tank, which highlights the value that a good tank can bring.Quote:
The value of tanking
I'm not really sure where the Aurum Vale reference comes from - it's not raid content, for starters, and is an oddball even as far as dungeons are concerned (but I think that's also a function of it being a 1.x dungeon). It actually plays much more like PotD/HoH in that careful pulls are relatively important. Is it an interesting bit of tanking content? Yes. Does it impact whether players presently consider good tanking or healing to be high value tasks? Not really.
Most tank/healer checks are also all-or-nothing checks. Some dps checks of a similar nature exist, but if a dps places an aoe wrong, or stands too close/far or something, it probably won't wipe the raid. It might even be recoverable to the point that the clear happens without an issue. But if a tank fails a tank check, or a healer fails a healer check, that's generally it. It's a simple thing, but if a tank doesn't mitigate Vice and Virtue and ends up going down, then a helluva lot more stress is applied to the raid compared to a dps who places their VaV puddle in a bad spot. Yes, those tanks mechanics are "easy" comparatively speaking, but that doesn't change the value tanks who successfully do those mechanics bring to a fight. The fact is that dps have a much larger margin of error for screwing up mechanics, while tanks and healers have a comparatively much narrow window in which to fuck up. .2% HP normally won't make much of a difference, but if 2-3 people are at 69.9% HP instead of 70.1% when Eden's Gravity hits, then they die. Meanwhile, a dps can suffer weakness 1-2 times per fight on top of the odd damage down debuff and still be able to put forth the damage needed to take out Voidwalker. Comparatively, that dps is losing far more than .2% of their overall damage, but that's fine because the tolerances that exist in terms of dps wiggle room are much higher.Quote:
In current content, you definitely see the difference between a better dps and a weaker dps. You make the dps checks allowing you to clear. You clear faster. Even if you put gear on a weaker dps, you get more value out of them, irrespective of how mediocre their play is.
It's not as clear cut for tanks and healers. Most tank and healer 'checks' are mechanics checks. You're expected to figure them out quickly and get back to smoothing things out to meet the raidwide dps check. And in fairness, they're usually fairly simple. It's never a case of "if my tank had better gear, surviving this tankbuster would be cleaner." It's always "if our dps had better gear, we would make this raidwide check."
Put another way, successful raid tanks and healers have to perform at 99%+ at all times, while successful dps generally only need to perform at 95%+. This generates a sense of complacency; people just expect healers and tanks to perform at that level all the time, while ignoring the key fact that performing at that level is directly responsible for even having a discussion about the importance of dps. Everyone simply assumes the tanks and healers are nailing all their mechanics flawlessly, and then pretending that those mechanics don't matter compared to dps, and thus shouldn't even be considered as any kind of meaningful contribution.
This is only because fights are 100% scripted and once a fight is learned you can plan out invulns to trivialize certain portions of an encounter. I would love to see the butthurt on the forums if SE ever brought back an end-game fight that wasn't 100% scripted. I'm talking a no planning possible kind of situation, not the "random" choice of "will Titania do outside or inside this time!?" with the only constants being that certain things have a small internal cooldown. One thing I loved about Ifrit EX was how maybe he'll stack supparation on you once and won't use it again until after the stack wears off, or maybe he'll stack 5 in under 15s and you need the OT with 3 stacks of supp to take him off you because you now have less max HP than the healers. More of that please.Quote:
Granted, the former will never, ever be the case as long as we have invulns.
And we should work to change that, not to homogenize the game further by turning tanks and healers into "dps but...."Quote:
But even on a more basic level, it doesn't really matter if you're a good 'tank'. i mean yeah, you need to remember the four tankbuster timestamps so that you press the button to survive. But because boss movement is mostly scripted, you rarely run into a situation where your tank positions things badly (you'd almost have to try deliberately). There's never a sense of "when this player tanks for us, I do more dps because they have the best positioning setups that I've seen."
Given that every tank has at least one oGCD that can be used in a short-term situation to provide value as a mitigation tool for someone, it's obvious that there is more that can be done. Many tanks don't use HoS/Intervention/NF/TBN in that way, which is a tragedy really, because they're leaving contribution and complexity on the table in favor of laziness. No tank busters come so quickly that Rampart and the 30% reduction skills aren't enough to deal with them, yet I so rarely see and hear of tanks throwing out their assistance skills onto the rest of the party. Using the assistance skills each tank is provided brings a lot of untapped optimization potential, yet so few tanks do it. Even fewer still take the time to advocate for an increase in actual tank-related stuff to do, instead taking the easy/lazy way out of saying "boost our damage."Quote:
How do you provide more value to your team as a tank? The content has to be designed to allow for it, first. it doesn't matter if it's about pushing more dps or setting up the fight so that your teammates do more dps. Someone interested in self-improvement is always going to be interested in finding more ways to provide value to their team. If the role doesn't allow for it, they're going to either swap roles or find a game that allows them to do so.
FF14 doesn't need to go down the path of WoW. I would rather SE take the time to re-tool their entire approach to raiding than reduce this game to the same state that WoW has been reduced to. They've shown they still have the capability to be original and innovative, but unless people make a stink about it (or if the stink is simply about "muh damage") then they have no reason to believe people would want more than damage. So many people in this very thread are complaining about the lack of tank-style stuff for a tank to do in a fight, yet few - if any - of them try to advocate for an increase in tank stuff to do. It's just a resigned "well I guess we're beefy dps now" and everyone washes their hands of it and complains that imaginary numbers on a stupid graph are all that matters.
I don't want that, and I know I'm not alone in that sentiment. I want tanks to tank and do tank things, not be a dps in heavy armor that the monster just happens to like looking at. So, instead of giving up and giving in to the "moar dps" approach, I will continue to advocate for increased tank-focused responsibilities that will serve to differentiate tanks from dps instead of blurring the lines between the two. -
10-02-2019, 03:57 PMReynhartYeah, so, like Kabooa said, if you force yourself into some kind of "race" that's purely player made. And considering the next tier comes 6 months after, no, you're not. By that time, you can upgrade every gear to max ilvl without even setting foot in Savage, so gear priority is void.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
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10-02-2019, 04:02 PMComrade_uri
Tbh I would love more tank stuff, but I also don't want it to take ages killing things in the overworld or instances. Vague and lacks the informative nature of previous replies I have enjoyed reading but I'm a simple man. I enjoy tanking/supporting the group but I also don't want to hit like a wet noodle
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10-02-2019, 04:07 PMBravely_Default
You said optimization is hated and should be kept out, but it was already a thing in the 50s with low hp tanks. Again a thing in the 60s with strength accessory tanks where people only had the bare bones health needed to eat tank busters. Even the start of the 70s we had players still taking strength accessories. When you take player options away, they get bored and try to squeeze until nothing is left. Obviously too much optimization leading to "one true build" is a bad thing. However taking away all our options and simplifying things so much can be just as bad to the experienced players. Go look at the healer forums, and you will see that a large majority of them agree that the more complicated move set with higher dps potential needs to come back. Hell most of them use the term green dps. If the healers arnt arguing so much about that, I dont know where our problems lie.
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10-02-2019, 04:26 PMReynhartLike I said a few pages ago, optimization is not related to raw numbers. You're much more "optimized as a player" if you're a 99th percentile at 8k DPS than a 30th percentile at 10k. ShB brought its bag of adjustements and the new potencies have set tanks and DPS farther away from each other, but you're still expected to do your best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 05:34 PMLythAV is not a relevant metric for anything. It's five-year-old content. The biggest reason why it causes anyone problems is because you sync to 49 instead of 50. But it's also incredibly easy to tank if you use a bit of common sense. You certainly aren't going to find raid groups trialling tanks on AV to find out if they're any good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
Not every tank mechanic is an all-or-nothing check. Positioning and movement-based ones are not. Everyone knows that you have to get from A to B. The difference is that really good tanks will backstep the boss in a way that causes neither themselves nor melee dps to lose any uptime.
If you want to see a fight with interesting tank mechanics, look at A7S. After every jump, the boss repositions themselves on the active tank. So you can set him up next to the jail locks to give your melee more uptime. You have to slowly kite the boss away from the cat while dodging balls. You could just run away, but you've just lost the group a ton of positionals. You could have the best dps players in the world, but it's meaningless if the fight isn't set up in a way that lets them optimise. THAT's where tanks are supposed to come in.
The problem is that the designers who create these fights create them from a dps perspective. So they look flashy and elaborate, but every bit of the "choreography" is scripted. Either the boss moves and rotates themselves into an optimal position, or the boss is massive and sits off the edge of the platform, moving to wherever they need to. Tanks are just melee dps with a simpler rotation that press a defensive button at four scripted points in a fight.
FFXIV is the raiding equivalent of a rail shooter. There's the illusion of movement, but it's all fake.
The issue of tank dps was just masking the underlying issue. You can push the difference all you want, but all it does is expose the fact that the game designers don't know how to design fights from a tank's perspective. -
10-02-2019, 07:45 PMQuorNo I did not. I said that optimization as the be-all-end-all is a terrible thing. Optimization within a job is fine, and can be fun. "Optimization" using incomplete third party information with the reasoning of "it feels bad" is fucking terrible and should be nipped in the bud, especially when the "optimization" in question is something as lazy as "just give us another 1k dps."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-02-2019, 11:17 PMBravely_Default
And where did I ever mention 3rd party information? You realize you can get a generalized damage output for a single class down to relatively close accuracy using a dummy right? Go punch a level 80 dummy with an assortment of dps, then go punch it with a tank and do the math for time it takes to kill with your best rotation. You will find it takes tanks about twice as long. Yes party buffs and other tools come into play. A majority of them benefit the team, while some of the buffs (dragoon eyes) a tank will never see. All the third party information does is simplify things for lazy people, but the ability to calculate has ALWAYS been there for number crunchers.
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10-02-2019, 11:18 PMBravely_Default
Hell if the dummy is not good enough for you, go get the hp value of whatever mob of your choice and test it yourself.
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10-02-2019, 11:33 PMReynhartValue that was definitely not obtained by 3rd party information because players sure love to make ridiculously long addition of each of their damage by themselves :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
But since we're on dummies, you have one designed for your role that says if you do enough damage for a tank, which again, is the only thing that matters in the end. -
10-02-2019, 11:46 PMBravely_Default
Oh? But some of us do have time for addition, not really a valid counter point considering the 100s of hours players in the past have put into theory crafting to figure out stat weights. And yes, tanks do have dummies. And they have very very little health. Because our contribution is expected to be very low. I dont agree with this.
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10-03-2019, 12:12 AMQuorThis entire thread was spawned based on someone feeling that the pretty bar graphs created on a third party site by a third party program weren't "right" and how SE needed to step in and correct it. Any conversation had in this thread that ignores the very reason for the threads existence is merely someone being disingenuous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
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10-03-2019, 12:37 AMIzsha
Dismissing the point of view and characterizing it as nothing but 'pretty bat graphs' is disingenuous. Se changed the balance between job roles. Thats not just stupid bar graphs. If you wale up tomorrow and healers deal triple the damage of dps, even if monster hp scaled to co.pensate, that would he far more than just bars on a graph. It changes the dynamics of the game. It changes solo play. It shifts the meta. It changes how healers should gear and what the optimal strats are for high end content regarding uptime and who to cater too. It has in game consequences when you change the ratio of damage participation between classes. Dismissing cross role shifts in power is not just existential bs about peoples egos. It is a tangible change to the impact different roles have in combat that affects many aspects of the player experience. Hand waving all that away is the disingenuous action.
Is it to big of a change? Is it a positive change? Negative? Those are worth discussing. Hand waving legitimate concerns wholesale because you want to lump it in with elitism on the other hand is oversimplifying the issue and mischaracterizing the problem. -
10-03-2019, 01:00 AMUltimatecaliburOn the flip side, during 2.X a tank could be tough enough that tank swapping wasn't needed in many high end fights due to all the "soft" tank swap mechanics. If a tank had enough Vit, rotated your cooldowns right and your healers were good enough to heal through all the damage a tank could survive with a stupid amount of vuln/hp down stacks. This was another reason OTs could go all out on Strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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10-03-2019, 01:17 AMKabooaYes. That would be a problem because then it renders 60% of the jobs in the game moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
But in that fantasy land, you'll probably have arbitrary checks in place to keep it from being 2 tanks and 6 healers - Much like what has been suggested in this thread.
So while each healer is outputting 45,000, you still only take two, and those two healers outputting 45,000 are going to be expected to output 45,000. And the boss HP will be tuned to expect 90,000 from the healers, 18,000 from the tanks, and 60,000 for the DPS, and no amount of healer optimization will cover the 6-12,000 gap from underperforming DPS.
So in the grand scheme of things, what really changed?
And that's the problem.
-Contribution- from the tanks is fine. It's literally fine. Again, I urge any tank who thinks otherwise to go in, and slash off 20-30% of what you usually do. It might not mean much in your static, but do it in a PF group. A learning group. A clear group.
See just how much weight your contribution actually holds, let alone during the first few weeks when the content isn't overgeared to hell and bored 99ers aren't joining rando groups that settle for less than 2chest. -
10-03-2019, 02:43 AMReynhartYes, it would, because healers would steal the primary focus of DPS. As long as healers are required to heal, DPS are required to kill and tanks are required to survive, then the only focus should be to do the best you can for your role, regardless of others. Pushed to the extreme, tanks and heals could do literraly 0 DPS in group content that parties would still take them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
And in that specific situation, tanks doing less DPS means that DPS have now a bigger role in killing the ennemies. -
10-03-2019, 02:50 AMQuorDid you read the entire thread? Serious question, because we're at page 24 right now. Anyway, if you read the entire thread, then you would have read my earlier responses, some of which mentioned the fact that this is only an "issue" inasmuch as people have decided to make it one for some arbitrary reason. I say it's not an issue for a number of reasons, one of which is that we only know of the dps differences because of ACT and FFlogs. Take those two things out of the equation and no one would be the wiser, because all content is tuned to be beatable by each specific job at a level that said job can handle. So while a dps may deal more damage in a quest fight than a tank, the values of the enemies in the fights are tuned such that completion takes about the same amount of time. In other words, if ACT and FFlogs didn't exist, no one would know about the "issue" that is this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
But they do exist, and you can't put the milk back in the bottle, so it is what it is. However, that doesn't mean it's an issue. My other responses have been to note that - by all objective standards - tank damage has gone WAY up, and that comparisons of damage across roles is meaningless. Furthermore, another thing people have ignored (despite being brought up by others many times) is that ShB is a totally new game. It's the 5.0 version of the game, and comparing "tank damage vs. dps damage in 4.0" to "tank damage vs. dps damage in 5.0" is as useful a metric as comparing tank damage in 1.0 would be to 2.0, or 3.0, or 4.0, or any of that shit. This is because SE makes content to be beaten by it's player base, and the jobs are all tuned in such a way that running a 2/2/4 setup of any combination of jobs should be enough to beat anything the game throws at you. Again, by all objective standards, this is true; 100% of the content in game has not only been beaten, but is beaten regularly by pugs utilizing a variety of party compositions.
In short, the system works. The arbitrary numbers that comprise the "gap" between tanks and dps are meaningless in the context of the bigger picture. Tanks are not hurting for damage. Tanks deal much more damage than they ever have before. This damage is more than enough to complete any and all content in game. Tank balance is the best it's been, ever. So what's the problem then? Well, the problem is that there are these graphs you see, and the graphs show that the gap between tanks and dps now is relatively larger than it was back in Stormblood. And this bothers some people, because they don't "feel" as if they deal enough damage. Now mind you, there is no objective support for this; all content is clearable by any composition of 2/2/4, assuming unique jobs in each spot. But still, there's this "feeling" and it's a bad one, because there is an arbitrary "past practice"-style standard that has been set, and this standard has been violated as of ShB, so clearly there is a problem and it MUST be fixed. How do we fix it? Apparently by just throwing 1k dps at tanks. Some people have had the audacity to call this a form of "optimization" while also ignoring counter-arguments that quite clearly show the claim to be bullshit, and others still have mentioned how it's not necessarily the dps per se, but rather the lack of engagement as a tank for anything else *but* dps.
Which, if you've read this thread, you'll know that I - and others - have acknowledged is a legitimate criticism, and had some good discussion about it to boot.
But "our damage isn't the same relative to dps from last xpac and this is un-fun for me, we need to boost it" is absolutely not legitimate criticism. It is whining. Not just any whining, but whining for "moar dps," which is the worst kind of whining when you've got A.) the best balance between the tanks that has ever been, and B.) no objective need for any tank to have it's dps buffed outside of minor potency or duration/cooldown tweaks. Certainly not "1k dps for all tanks." For all intents and purposes, the game is beatable as it is now. So why add more dps to any role? SE isn't just going to shrug and go "well, guess they're killing these bosses 2-4 minutes faster guys, nothing we can do about it." No, if you add 1k dps to any of the roles you're just going to see an appropriate increase in boss HP to compensate. At which point, why even bother adding the dps? There's no objective reason, only subjective ones, i.e. "it feels bad," with the great irony being that without FFlogs and ACT, no one would know.
It's like when you give a small child something to eat that they don't like, but it's cooked or prepared in such a way that the child doesn't think it's the thing they don't like. So the kid goes and eats it just fine, until stupid cousin Fred comes in and is like "oh hey, you're eating that? I thought you hated <insert food name here>" and then all of a sudden the kid hates this thing he was just enjoying a moment ago. That's this thread in a nutshell. I dismiss these concerns because they're petty, selfish, and ignorant. They ignore (intentionally or otherwise) the fact that the state of the game is fine, all content is beatable as it is now, and any change to this will either throw role balance way the fuck out of whack or do nothing but artificially inflate boss HP values for no other reason than a minority of tanks are sad that they're FFlogs numbers aren't as high as they think they should be (aka "the pretty bar graphs look wrong"). -
10-03-2019, 03:26 AMBravely_Default
If you think the state of everything is fine especially with the state of ranged dps and physical dps, and the amount of healers and tanks complaining, I dont know what to tell you. In the end it's up to the majority of the players, they can fix it or they leave. Easy as that. I play the game for a certain degree of satisfaction, if a huge expac changes that balance and satisfaction and it doesnt get fixed, I leave. Least I got a sweet 5k hours out of it though.
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10-03-2019, 03:33 AMBravely_Default
Se can reflavor the game however they want to, doesn't mean the players have to like that new flavor. I dont recall players asking for a huge amount of the changes they made. PLD stance dance was a bit wonky, but I'm pretty sure players didnt want the entire stance mechanic removed. Hell I dont even remember dps complaining about tank dps that much. Healers just wanted better balancing so all 3 were wanted in content in any combination.
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10-03-2019, 04:30 AMJ-ReynoLet's go ahead and establish that a bump of 1k dps (which is what I suggest, and you seem to enjoy referring to my OP) for tanks is not going to "blur the lines" between the dps and tank roles. This would still leave them well under dps numbers. Putting that out there for the second time in this thread to make sure we understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
That said, if they want to take the approach of completely overhauling the role? Make it so that tanks have a one-button damage rotation while applying the occasional dot to justify the current damage levels, then giving the role a plethora of actual tanking and mitigation tools? Well, we can see how that goes. But I think it's as unlikely as it is unnecessary as it requires a re-tooling of the entire game.
A small bump in dps is much more realistic. I don't mind the current moment-to-moment gameplay of the role. Just needs more damage if that's what I'm going to spend all my time doing. Hell it'd be great for us to return to the damage distribution between the roles we had in Stormblood. And since we all know they weren't doing dps role numbers, we don't have to continue that made-up argument. -
10-03-2019, 04:38 AMKabooaThe balance is not perfect. That's accepted, but saying the balance is not perfect doesn't mean it's not overall good. It -is overall good-, and Tanks in particular are -overall in the best state of balance they've ever been in-.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
Whether the tanks are, from a design standpoint, better or worse is subjective at best, -and not solved by boosting their damage-.
DPS being imbalanced between the various DPS is an issue because it renders certain jobs obsolete if they have no real strengths to offset the difference.
DPS being imbalanced between Tanks -and any other role- is not even on the same scale of priority or problem.
Depending on the degree of bump (Is 1000, the average? The minimum? The maximum), a 12-15% bump is not 'small'. It's significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Reyno
And stop saying "What we had in Stormblood".
What we had in Stormblood was a padded mess. Literally every metric being used is an inflated one. It's PDPS. RDPS, the metric being used now, isn't perfect, but it is attributing the damage where it rightfully belongs - The person who brought it. Granted some of the calculations, especially surrounding crit and direct hit, can be questionable.
You start reassigning all the bonuses being brought to who brought it to Stormblood Logs, and Tanks -significantly dip-. You want "Stormblood" damage contribution back?
Then you'd be asking for like 200-300, because that's about what you lost, but also eclipsed by the Party attribute bonus the tank now contributes to. -
10-03-2019, 05:02 AMNedkelAnd it turns dungeons into flamming hell for both tank and healer if dps in their party are people who are watching netflix and spam only 3 skills over and over. This is the pure definition of fun, being a meatball that soaks damage and is on the grace of RNG god that decides where and when you are getting a smooth run as a tank and healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Gameplay in dungeons for tanks is the biggest victim of reducing tanks damage. -
10-03-2019, 05:13 AMSleepyNeko
As a tank main I always support more damage on a tank, mainly because it lessens the chance of enrage on bosses when dps dies and pulls you down from clearing the boss. I've had enough clear attempts on bosses where dps just dies once or twice each and we end up enraging. Basically the less damage that a non-dps role contributes to a fight, the more you lose every time a dps dies. It feels really bad when you are doing the fights 100% correct with 100% effort but a few deaths from dps and its a wipe.
But on the other hand would you feel less fun tanking if you weren't using a parser? Because you wouldn't know that you are doing 50% or 70% damage of a dps without a parser. Maybe you'll feel better if you stopped parsing? or played a dps instead. -
10-03-2019, 05:44 AMShurrikhanI have to agree with this. DPS have, by design, become the "Netflix and push the occasional button" role in dungeons. Interrupts have been removed. Repositionals? Removed. Kiting? Removed. Even now I'll occasionally outperform the true DPS's damage on tank or healer, especially in AoE, and given the ceiling on either of those roles, that... feels pretty bad. I have zero desire to reduce tank damage even further just to highlight DPS contribution in lieu of their other removed utilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
Ultimately, we aren't going to get a satisfying zero-sum solution out of both tank and dps having fewer responsibilities (or, more often in the case of DPS, potential contributions) in their toolkits than they used to have. DPS may want more contribution from their damage, since that's all they have now, to better show their difference from tanks and make up for their increased relative squishiness. But, tanks in turn will want to be able to contribute to raid DPS at least as much as they used to, given that they too have lost most other means of contribution that would actually fall under their control (rather than being provided merely through a passive and single modifier). Both roles would, frankly, be more fun if there was more to do, period. But, given that we only have dps left to fret over, I'm not surprised by, say, this thread hitting 24 pages in such a short time.