DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

No idea what you're talking about. Most of those people are in my static

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DifficultC...us-max-1mb.gif

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Careful, we arent allowed to look at any flaws, only the good parts.

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Just like we can exaggerate that parsers are bad because some people abuse them? By that logic, Vote Abandon/Kick should be removed from the game because some people abuse those too.

The majority of posters have been civil. Why are we going to focus on the few bad apples?

This conversation wasn't even about parsers originally, it was about what constitutes good and bad DPS...

I like bacon.

I am now just as on topic as the last few pages.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

This conversation wasn't even about parsers originally, it was about what constitutes good and bad DPS...

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Have you ever tried to get white knights to flock in and blindly defend your bad argument? It's hard to do without shaming parsers and parser users.

In general, I really think SE takes the casual communities' feelings into account too much, to there detriment at times.
Feast has been a shitshow without text chat and only makes people bottle up these feelings and become even angrier at players.

Parsers could really help people improve since they can guage how well or bad theyre doing. Sure there's a few people that will use it to be assholes, but why should the overall player quality suffer because a few people will abuse it

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

In general, I really think SE takes the casual communities' feelings into account too much, to there detriment at times.
Feast has been a shitshow without text chat and only makes people bottle up these feelings and become even angrier at players.

Parsers could really help people improve since they can guage how well or bad theyre doing. Sure there's a few people that will use it to be assholes, but why should the overall player quality suffer because a few people will abuse it

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You can still keep the same rules - if someone gives another person grief in party chat over their DPS you can still report them. They don't have to change anything. There's a number of things they could do to prevent abuse. But they won't because as can be seen here, far too many people will just moan and complain over the fact that parsers exist and complain about "potential abuses" rather than just trying to use them and get better at the game.

At this point, basically all of my friends who are on PC have ACT. The only people who are being harmed here are the PS4 players who don't have access to it.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

These forums *do not* lend themselves well to guide writing for various reasons I'm sure don't have to be explained,

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I wonder if that stupid BS 1,000 character limit has anything to do with it?

I mean seriously, everybody and their brother edits to bypass it anyways, so why even have it? lol.

Maybe the forums would be a bit more popular if they would lift the pointless restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

In general, I really think SE takes the casual communities' feelings into account too much, to there detriment at times.
Feast has been a shitshow without text chat and only makes people bottle up these feelings and become even angrier at players.

Parsers could really help people improve since they can guage how well or bad theyre doing. Sure there's a few people that will use it to be assholes, but why should the overall player quality suffer because a few people will abuse it

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Hell I don't even want to do Savage and I want a parser. I always look up the optimal rotation before I pick up a class, and try to keep at least a visual guide for my opener and notes on a bar next to the game window while I play. I don't want to be /the best/ but actually doing somewhat competently is something I strive for, even if I plan on never touching the class again. I'd rather not have to download third party software just to get some basic numbers, and Stone Sky and Sea only goes so far as does comparing myself to similar DPS in any given group.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I wonder if that stupid BS 1,000 character limit has anything to do with it?

I mean seriously, everybody and their brother edits to bypass it anyways, so why even have it? lol.

Maybe the forums would be a bit more popular if they would lift the pointless restrictions.

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Supposedly the limitations (character count and post limit) are from the 1.0 forums “to reduce spam”. It was apparently an issue back then.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

Bruh, that's a bad plug. If people can/wanna go out of their way to get good, they will, there's ways.

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And one of those ways is the Balance discord, which is chock full of information on BiS sets, rotations, optimization ideas fight-by-fight, and lovely people like Nemekh who will do their best to help you get better at your job. In fact I daresay it's the place to do this, because of the community that the Balance has amassed, you end up with links to everywhere else one can learn and get better; then you also have the chatrooms where you can discuss these guides and ask questions in an environment built specifically to answer them.

Honestly, I love Nemekh's post on this thread and might adopt some of it into my signature.

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Some folks need to get over themselves. For real.

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Including yourself. For real.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t see how it’s “painting a picture of you” when you have painted your own bias as clear as day—your posts are nothing but anti-parsers, and it doesn’t take a genius to see that. If, somehow, your position is different, why don’t you try clarifying instead of making passive-aggressive remarks. To be honest, that paints you as the toxic one in here, not those who are talking numbers. :/

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lol what? At least get your faces straight before criticizing a stranger, rofl xD

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Originally Posted by Issac

lol what? At least get your faces straight before criticizing a stranger, rofl xD

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If your comment wasn’t in reference to my comments or Bourne_Endeavor’s, the “quote” feature may better assist you in making it clear who you’re talking to. Or what you’re even talking about. Rofl xD.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If your comment wasn’t in reference to my comments or Bourne_Endeavor’s, the “quote” feature may better assist you in making it clear who you’re talking to. Or what you’re even talking about. Rofl xD.

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See that tiny graphic next to your name in the quote? The one with the tiny 2 white triangles? Click that. See my name quoted in that(your) post? Yes, I'm referring to that.

I am saying you are making claims about me that are simply not true. I don't know why I need to spell this out. :)

Because you're being about as vague as possible for the sole purpose of calling somebody out like this.

These threads always go places.

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Originally Posted by Issac

See that tiny graphic next to your name in the quote? The one with the tiny 2 white triangles? Click that. See my name quoted in that(your) post? Yes, I'm referring to that.

I am saying you are making claims about me that are simply not true. I don't know why I need to spell this out. :)

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Your first “painter” comment had no quotation in it, my friend. And as I said before (in the post you actually did quote), if you had a different position with regards to parsers, maybe you could clarify it instead of being passive-aggressive and vague. Just a suggestion. :)

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

...

I remember that when I first started playing at the start of Heavensward, people warned me in particular to not talk about parsing period on these forums because of a story of how one of the most prominent DRG guide writers got banned from here, because he merely included a screenshot/video in his guide where a parsing overlay was on display. That story tells me why that Reddit Balance discord exists, and it tells me why there's such a huge rift between the English community, split between 2 websites (these forums and Reddit). These forums *do not* lend themselves well to guide writing for various reasons I'm sure don't have to be explained, and on top of that, it seems the official forums have an incredibly low population of actual raiders that actively post on it.

At least now we can somewhat have a discussion on parsing without forum bans being handed out over it. Though a lot of people are being disingenuous over it.
...

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It's kind of funny, the reddit community jokingly claims that many redditors there have been banned from the official forums like it's a badge of honor. XD

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Originally Posted by Issac

See that tiny graphic next to your name in the quote? The one with the tiny 2 white triangles? Click that. See my name quoted in that(your) post? Yes, I'm referring to that.

I am saying you are making claims about me that are simply not true. I don't know why I need to spell this out. :)

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I actually wondered if you can answer seriously to a post that start with "lol" and end by "rofl xD".

HyoMinPark could and did it.

Perhaps you can show the same kind of respect, and say what you want to say, instead of beating around the bush like that?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Your first “painter” comment had no quotation in it, my friend. And as I said before (in the post you actually did quote), if you had a different position with regards to parsers, maybe you could clarify it instead of being passive-aggressive and vague. Just a suggestion. :)

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You're nitpicking, honestly. The first post was obviously directed at the one making assumptions about me in the post directly prior...

Both that post and the second I quoted, when referencing PAINTERS, were making unbased assumptions of me. It's pretty frustrating, to say the least. And you yourself make claims about my posting history that are patently false. Everything about it is pretty damn offensive and disrespectful. All the more reason I should feel disgusted.

Yes. All of this is very, very disgusting. Take a step back, a deep breath, and consider how you are treating your peers.

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

I actually wondered if you can answer seriously to a post that start with "lol" and end by "rofl xD".

HyoMinPark could and did it.

Perhaps you can show the same kind of respect, and say what you want to say, instead of beating around the bush like that?

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Honestly, look at the post history in this thread. If you still believe I am in the wrong, I will have to blacklist you. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Issac

Honestly, look at the post history in this thread. If you still believe I am in the wrong, I will have to blacklist you. Seriously.

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Blacklist me as well, I think you are squarely in the wrong despite not even fully understanding your position because you refuse to articulate it.

People are asking you point blank questions and you aren't answering them. There's a certain amount of disrespect in that as well. You know what they say about stones and glass houses?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Blacklist me as well, I think you are squarely in the wrong despite not even fully understanding your position because you refuse to articulate it.

People are asking you point blank questions and you aren't answering them. There's a certain amount of disrespect in that as well. You know what they say about stones and glass houses?

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Do me a kindness and point out the questions I am not answering?

Eh, back on track, they probably should just force everyone to do 5k on a dummy before being able to do savage as that job. Just gatekeep already, and let the savage people complain how they can't find anyone if not enough people improve to that level. Someone who can do that probably would learn the rest when taught.

I mean, this is not about helping others to improve, its about getting the baddies out. I wish people would just admit this. Even if we have a dedicated parser, no one is forced to use it, so you'll just be back here complaining again if they do when you really just want better gatekeeping measures and freedom from fear of harassment if you kick for dps. Just lock the thing up behind a maat fight and then accept you are going to have a smaller but better population.

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Originally Posted by Issac

Do me a kindness and point out the questions I am not answering?

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What exactly is your position on the subject of the thread?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Eh, back on track, they probably should just force everyone to do 5k on a dummy before being able to do savage as that job. Just gatekeep already, and let the savage people complain how they can't find anyone if not enough people improve to that level. Someone who can do that probably would learn the rest when taught.

I mean, this is not about helping others to improve, its about getting the baddies out. I wish people would just admit this. Even if we have a dedicated parser, no one is forced to use it, so you'll just be back here complaining again if they do when you really just want better gatekeeping measures and freedom from fear of harassment if you kick for dps. Just lock the thing up behind a maat fight and then accept you are going to have a smaller but better population.

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Is this thread a good one? I would say it isn't. It takes a negative view on a question that OP had already asked in a completely separate thread.

However, you always seem to have the worst assumptions and opinions of savage raiders. "This is not about helping others improve, it's about getting the baddies out." Maybe that's how you would act if you were a raider, and that's why you assume the worst of others, but honestly, in the right situations (ie, in the balance discord, not in a raid pug) people are incredibly willing to help out with class education and practice at any level.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What exactly is your position on the subject of the thread?

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My position is that the subject makes me feel sick to my stomach... I already said this.

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Originally Posted by Issac

You're nitpicking, honestly. The first post was obviously directed at the one making assumptions about me in the post directly prior...

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Because your first post in this thread was this:

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Originally Posted by Issac

This thread makes me feel sick to my stomach...

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Which elaborated nothing positive with regards to the current topic (which had shifted from “opinions on is 4k DPS good or bad” to “parsers”), hence why I responded as such:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And both of you are focusing on the negatives surrounding parsers and DPS rather than the posters that are advocating for improvement, or even saying that 4,000 DPS is not terrible depending on the context behind the number (type of content, gear, job, number of deaths, rotation, etc.). Too many people are blinded by their prejudices to see the other side, and I'm sorry but these two posts speak to that.

I'll just repeat my story of the SAM in TsukuEx doing 2,800 DPS against a BRD doing 5,000 with a death...and the SAM was the one berating the BRD and saying they were trash. When clearly, the numbers prove otherwise. And I feel confident in saying the SAM was not using a parser, otherwise he wouldn't have been acting like the God of DPS. But only people who parse are "toxic", right?

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MageBlack was kind enough to elaborate why he felt the way he did, and I appreciated his response. You, on the other hand, replied with another vague post that elaborated nothing:

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Originally Posted by Issac

This person seems to have painted a picture of me.

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And did this a few more times afterwards:

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Originally Posted by Issac

A lotta aspiring painters, it would seem :/

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Originally Posted by Issac

lol what? At least get your faces straight before criticizing a stranger, rofl xD

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Originally Posted by Issac

See that tiny graphic next to your name in the quote? The one with the tiny 2 white triangles? Click that. See my name quoted in that(your) post? Yes, I'm referring to that.

I am saying you are making claims about me that are simply not true. I don't know why I need to spell this out. :)

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Why don’t you say what you want to say without being passive-aggressive, vague, or rude about it? I asked you no less than twice to do just that if you held anything other than a negative view towards this thread topic (because your first post came off negative), and you have yet to actually do just that, instead accusing me of “painting you” or making up “patently false” claims about your posting history when you have said nothing at all constructive to this thread. Or nothing at all about clarifying/elaborating on your position. Is that really so hard to do?

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Originally Posted by Issac

Both that post and the second I quoted, when referencing PAINTERS, were making unbased assumptions of me. It's pretty frustrating, to say the least. And you yourself make claims about my posting history that are patently false. Everything about it is pretty damn offensive and disrespectful. All the more reason I should feel disgusted.

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Clarify your position if you don’t want people to make negative assumptions about you. Coming into a thread saying “this thread makes me sick to my stomach” is hardly a positive comment. And your passive-aggressive remarks afterwards even less so.

Also, refusing requests to elaborate on the why is also pretty rude, and gives people nothing to go off of other than your first negative response. Which wasn’t very constructive or thorough.

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Originally Posted by Issac

Yes. All of this is very, very disgusting. Take a step back, a deep breath, and consider how you are treating your peers.

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You have said nothing constructive in this thread, and instead are accusing me of being the disrespectful one here when you continue to beat around the bush, and refuse to answer my request to clarify your position on parsers/the debate at hand, responding instead with passive-aggressiveness and sarcasm. I think you are the one who needs to take a few steps back, a few deep breaths, and consider the way you are acting in this thread, which has been largely civil up until the last few pages.

All right, then.

Your first post said this :

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Originally Posted by Issac

This thread makes me feel sick to my stomach...

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What about it make you feel sick? The parsers? Or the person against the parses? Or the whole "dps thingy" perhaps? You just say that and don't elaborate further.

Then you answer, right after HyoMinPark :

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Originally Posted by Issac

This person seems to have painted a picture of me.

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What does this even mean? Again, you don't elaborate. The meaning may be obvious to you, but to most of the readers it is not. And how are we supposed to know you were responding to MageBlack without quotation mark?


You then quote Bourne_Endeavor and answer her with :

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Originally Posted by Issac

A lotta aspiring painters, it would seem :/

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My point is the same that for the post above. While they all make clear that they don't understand you, you still don't elaborate any further.


And then :

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Originally Posted by Issac

lol what? At least get your faces straight before criticizing a stranger, rofl xD

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Of course she would call you toxic. How many people actually understood whatever you wanted to say, here?


If you don't have time, or are to lazy to write an understandable post on the forum, then it's better if you don't write anything at all.


So yeah, you are in the wrong. Please BL me.

Can we get back to the topic at hand, now?

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Originally Posted by Issac

My position is that the subject makes me feel sick to my stomach... I already said this.

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What about the subject makes you sick to your stomach?

That people can be as low as 4k in savage? That people complain 4k is too high a bar to set as average in savage? That the topic hasn't been broached yet? That it's been broached before? That it's been broached at all?

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Originally Posted by Issac

My position is that the subject makes me feel sick to my stomach... I already said this.

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And you followed that up with "This person seems to have painted a picture of me."

You quoted no one, thus people assumed you were comparing yourself to the thread title. If that wasn't the intention, why not establish instead of being willfully obtuse? It's pretty simply to explain why this thread disgusts you.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And both of you are focusing on the negatives surrounding parsers and DPS

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This was making an assumption on my stance.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Are you a 4k DPS? How about instead of taking this as a personal attack, look at how you can improve? We all started at the bottom once upon a time. Some people are more diplomatic than others with their opinions, but that doesn't change the fact you can always improve if you do desire.

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Another assumption, and quite frankly, rude.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t see how it’s “painting a picture of you” when you have painted your own bias as clear as day—your posts are nothing but anti-parsers, and it doesn’t take a genius to see that. If, somehow, your position is different, why don’t you try clarifying instead of making passive-aggressive remarks. To be honest, that paints you as the toxic one in here, not those who are talking numbers. :/

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Annnd the false claim. I never said anything about being against parsers, ever. Period. In fact, I intentionally withhold my opinions for the very reason I have three people dogpiling me at this very moment. See, the post history in this thread, and the actions of you few, has been pretty acidic. You want to put words in my mouth? Fine. This is a damn joke.

You're right Issac, you haven't said you're against parsers. You haven't said you're for them either. You haven't made a single quantifiable judgment either way other than to say the thread sickens you, and then proceeded to start attacking people who made assumptions based on your purposefully vague post.

You're attention begging. You're being willfully obtuse. You're disrupting a thread and adding nothing to it. You're right, this is a damn joke. Get off the stage, nobody's laughing.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What about the subject makes you sick to your stomach?

That people can be as low as 4k in savage? That people complain 4k is too high a bar to set as average in savage? That the topic hasn't been broached yet? That it's been broached before? That it's been broached at all?

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That we, as a community, can be so toxic to eachother.

Also, I never attacked anyone. That's a very inaccurate statement.

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Originally Posted by Issac

Another assumption, and quite frankly, rude.

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How is that remotely rude? Of course I made an assumption. You provided no context whatsoever except to claim the thread made you sick. Okay? How else am I to take that sort of response? If you don't want people to make assumptions, stop being vague.

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Originally Posted by Issac

See, the post history in this thread, and the actions of you few, has been pretty acidic. You want to put words in my mouth? Fine. This is a damn joke.

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We've been acidic yet you came into a thread that was generally civil, claimed it made you sick then got offended when people asked why or made assumptions based on your lack of information? Sounds like a you problem, mate.

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Originally Posted by Issac

This was making an assumption on my stance.

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You elaborated nothing but a negative stance from the get-go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Issac

Another assumption, and quite frankly, rude.

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I don’t see what is so rude about it? You seemed to have taken what I said personally, hence probably why Bourne_Endeavor said “instead of taking this as a personal attack”.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Issac

Annnd the false claim. I never said anything about being against parsers, ever. Period. In fact, I intentionally withhold my opinions for the very reason I have three people dogpiling me at this very moment. See, the post history in this thread, and the actions of you few, has been pretty acidic. You want to put words in my mouth? Fine. This is a damn joke.

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ELABORATE.

You have done no such thing in this thread other than say it makes you sick. The conversation had shifted towards parsers, so what were people supposed to think when you respond with “this thread makes me sick” with no quotes—so no specificity on what you found sick—and no elaboration? Maybe if you had elaborated from the beginning, we would not be having this conversation now. We aren’t being the acidic ones here—I have asked multiple times for an elaboration that you won’t give. Instead, you respond with passive-aggressive rude comments. How is that not acidic in it’s own way?

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Originally Posted by Issac

That we, as a community, can be so toxic to eachother.

Also, I never attacked anyone. That's a very inaccurate statement.

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You're a prime example of this. Also, you've been very hostile and obtuse your entire time in this thread, and frankly it's appalling how hard you're trying to spin this around.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

people are incredibly willing to help out with class education and practice at any level.

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If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target. You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations. There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit. The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

The constant annoyance with and ranking of dps does not really show me that raiders are that kind of chill people, at least the ones who care about it aren't. I don't blame them, because Se made a gameplay style where yeah, you are a burden because there is no second string force in a savage raid; no place for people who aren't skilled enough, like the raise brigades of some mmo fights. It isn't fun wiping and disbanding due to one player, I've been on both sides of that. Just wish people would be honest about it, because if they ask for a parser it won't solve the problems or use terms like garbage, burden, carry, etc, its not really this disinterested mentor stuff.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target.

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Don't need to be in an FC when there's a discord full of people across all servers and data centers who are infinitely better equipped to help than an FC lead.

Quote:

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You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations.

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Besides which, there are plenty of raid-centric FCs.

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There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit.

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The parser matters a lot for calculating the best practical way to mix and match abilities, and carve forward a path for others to follow. It's an essential tool for number crunching a game so vague it doesn't even fully describe what half it's stats do.

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The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

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Then how am I supposed to view you, who are apparently too biased and angry at raiders to ever see another viewpoint? In a farm party is not the time to be learning your job. In a farm party is not the time to be learning the fight. In a farm party is not the place to expect to get tips on how to use a Summoner's pets. In a discord like the Balance, which is free and open for all to join, however, people are ready and willing to help at almost all hours of the day.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You're a prime example of this. Also, you've been very hostile and obtuse your entire time in this thread, and frankly it's appalling how hard you're trying to spin this around.

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On the contrary, I feel as though I've been marked for death by a hostile party of people. Just because of how I feel of something, and defend myself from inaccurate assumptions, I am being hostile. I am being obtuse.

Just... Wow.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target. You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations. There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit. The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

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Have you heard of The Balance or Dimension X discords? Both are community founded with the intentions of helping players improve. They boast thousands of raiders with varying degrees of skill, background and personalities. Many raiders do precisely what you've suggested, however players should not be dependent on third party programs or tools because the game simply doesn't offer any information. Parsers absolutely help. How do you think all these raiders became good players? I would never be where I am right now—progging Ultimate—were I not able to see my damage and learn from theorycrafters. There are plenty of people who literally have no idea they're doing anything wrong. In fact, I once told a BLM how low his damage was when he asked and he was flat out shocked. All this time he thought he'd been improving yet had no idea. I gave him the basics I know about BLM and linked him to Elysium's guide. His damage improved immediately, all due to a dreaded parser.

It's almost like parsers are helpful tools.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Issac

On the contrary, I feel as though I've been marked for death by a hostile party of people. Just because of how I feel of something, and defend myself from inaccurate assumptions, I am being hostile. I am being obtuse.

Just... Wow.

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“Marked for death”? Dramatic, much? Again, it helps if you come into a thread with a clear position rather than just say:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Issac

This thread makes me feel sick to my stomach...

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With absolutely no context other than what the conversation in the thread is about...which is about damage numbers and, towards when you came in, parsers. Don’t be vague.