About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

snip giant wall off text

---

1) You never answered my question. I understand you feel like you're missing out because you had many skill inherently originally. If you came to this game as a new player i.e. you didnt know you had them inherently originally, would you have the same opinion? Explain why this is bad design decision, rather than cry and rant about how SB isnt HW.

2) Let's also scrap this idea that healers are taking on big losses here. Even if you are truly convinced that you must use role skill to rebuild your old class as it was rather modify the old one into something new and different, the number of useless/near useless cc skills in the current system prevent you from taking significant losses here. For example, WHM who you argue was hit hardest, could take Protect, Esuna, swiftcast, E4E, and Largesse, and still be better than it was in HW. You've got reduced cooldowns on Assize and a new MP management skill to help you with MP. You lose the already near-useless iteration of HW surecast. Trade Stoneskin for DB, which is arguably a much better skill. Your biggest loss is Virus, a skill that is near useless in many fights because it doesnt impact magic damage. And useless in many more because supervirus is preferred.

3) Let's stop this notion that these skills are 4-5 slots are MUST HAVES. They aren't. You are imagining things. Queue up for a roulette, dont use any of these skills comparable skills. Shake your head in defeat after you clear the content successfully. These skills are not required. You dont "need to regain what you lost". You have the option, but you also have the option to play around with other skills.

Hypothetically:
Let's say that the current HW SCH had to choose between HW leeches and HW Cleric Stance. What vet SCH wouldnt take CS? There is potential for these skills to be competitive. Esuna is not a must-have and is a dead skill in alot of content.

4) HPS is not DPS. You only need 'enough' HPS, and in the overwhelming majority of content, that HPS check is very low. So low in fact, that the benefit of role skills that would impact survivability become questionable.


Have an open mind here. Not being exactly the same as you were HW is not necessarily a bad thing. Breathe and go into SB with an open mind before sounding the alarms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

For once you and I actually agree on something if only partially Nyght. However even if Luminiferous Aether is the stronger of the two, all they need to do is either extend Shroud of Saints duration or lower Luminiferous Aether's to like 20 and raise Shroud of Saints to 20 seconds as well. But should they remove these two abilities from their respective classes just to resolve the problem? No.

---

This is a perfect example of why I said we should look at the bigger picture before we judge why things are going the direction they are. Having the skills go back to their respective jobs, would end up leaving sch out in the rain so to speak. With the Aetherflow change that was made, they have lost out on MP regen, and now were not being fair to them. You could say, "Lets just return it back to normal", but that also changes how it works for summoner. This change could be something Over powered for them that would make them a much more viable pick over redmage and blackmage in content. I'm far reaching in speculation, but I'm trying to make the point that there is a ripple effect to making changes without looking at how it will effect everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

Have an open mind here. Not being exactly the same as you were HW is not necessarily a bad thing. Breathe and go into SB with an open mind before sounding the alarms.

---

This is certainly a good idea to keep in mind, but I doubt the game is going to change so much as to make mainstays such as Protect or Lucid Dreaming no longer necessary a vast majority of the time. While I imagine in raids you could have one healer take Protect or something like that, and in easier content you could probably drop Largesse, I can't really see a point where I wouldn't want to always take the abilities I used to have.

It feels very bad, from a gameplay standpoint, to lose abilities I once had and then have to take them back through cross role actions, when they could have taken the time to come up with more unique abilities for us to take. It's not exactly fun or engaging to have to choose between a persistent damage reduction, a huge healing boost, a large MP refresh, my dispel, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

They both reduce enmity generation.

---

Incorrect, but I can see why you'd be confused. SoS cuts all current enmity in half at the time it's used. Aether is basically quelling strikes. Inaccurate comparison is inaccurate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Incorrect, but I can see why you'd be confused. SoS cuts all current enmity in half at the time it's used. Aether is basically quelling strikes. Inaccurate comparison is inaccurate.

---

To say one has no enmity reduction is still entirely wrong. I'm not sure why this is somehow an argument. They both reduce enmity.

Not to mention that the argument being made was that LA was the one with no enmity reduction, when it's the persistent one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

To say one has no enmity reduction is still entirely wrong. I'm not sure why this is somehow an argument. They both reduce enmity.

---

Cutting enmity in half isn't the same as reducing enmity generation, and more importantly, is 100x more superior than just halving a select few actions aggro. Reducing aggro generation means that only a few select actions generate only 50% hate, and is inferior, in every sense of the word. Cutting all current enmity in half means that allow the aggro from healing/dpsing is reduced to 50% of what it was, a small but game changing difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

Either my tooltip is wrong, and has been wrong since I got my AST soulstone, or there is some misinformation going around here.

https://image.prntscr.com/image/zgH-...ivmNNjJoIA.png

here is a screenshot of the tooltip as it currently appears in game. Containing the phrase "Reduces enmity generation."

---

Oh....well you were right, I must have been confusing the Enmity interactions between Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether, my apologies >.<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

This is a perfect example of why I said we should look at the bigger picture before we judge why things are going the direction they are. Having the skills go back to their respective jobs, would end up leaving sch out in the rain so to speak. With the Aetherflow change that was made, they have lost out on MP regen, and now were not being fair to them. You could say, "Lets just return it back to normal", but that also changes how it works for summoner. This change could be something Over powered for them that would make them a much more viable pick over redmage and blackmage in content. I'm far reaching in speculation, but I'm trying to make the point that there is a ripple effect to making changes without looking at how it will effect everyone.

---

The solution shouldnt be to take the MP regens away from WHM and AST as built in abilities just to give one to SCH when they can just give one to Scholar. Not like White Mage doesnt have two methods of restoring MP (IE Shroud of Saints and Assize which restores 10% mp)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

This is certainly a good idea to keep in mind, but I doubt the game is going to change so much as to make mainstays such as Protect or Lucid Dreaming no longer necessary a vast majority of the time. While I imagine in raids you could have one healer take Protect or something like that, and in easier content you could probably drop Largesse, I can't really see a point where I wouldn't want to always take the abilities I used to have.

It feels very bad, from a gameplay standpoint, to lose abilities I once had and then have to take them back through cross role actions, when they could have taken the time to come up with more unique abilities for us to take. It's not exactly fun or engaging to have to choose between a persistent damage reduction, a huge healing boost, a large MP refresh, my dispel, etc.

---

Elamys pretty much said what I would have responded with Winsock. The problem is that half of what is in Cross Role for Healers isnt even new, its just renamed, if that. But Lucid Dreaming is Shroud of Saints/Luminiferous Aether with a generalized duration for one. several of these if not all of them are no brainer choices......so those are not really choices at all.

Again I say:

1) Cleansers (Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches), never hurts to be prepared to remove an annoying debuff, but I will acknowledge there are times where I know I didnt need it, but does this really REALLY mean these should be taken out of the core kits of their respective healers?

2) Protect (name one party in their right mind who never has this), I have forgotten to use/couldnt use Protect in the past cause it was in a Cross Class slot that i was not the proper level at the time to use cause of Level Sync or I just genuinely forgot to cast it.

3) Lucid Dreaming, unless you can give me a legitimately darn good excuse as to why an MP Regen isnt necessary, then this is a critical ability. Despite the fact I have not healed freaken Alexander Savage or Extreme, that doesnt change the fact that I do know what I am talking about. I am a very darn great healer, and no matter how much I properly manage my MP, there will come times where I have to burn MP, almost half my bar, just to keep people alive as my WHM or AST, and before you say it, no I am doing NOTHING wrong, I am properly managing my MP, but the demands for healing that I encounter cause me to have to go pretty heal heavy and yes my gear is up to par with the content I am doing. WHM and AST shouldnt be losing an MP Regen to Cross Role simply because people ARE going to constantly have it, I will be surprised if I see someone not have it in emergency.

4) Largesse, goodness who wouldnt want to have a 20% heal buff?

the only spell id be willing to give up at this point, is Swiftcast and even then that is a stretch cause getting an instant heal off can be a clutch save.

You keep telling me I am not answering you Winsock, but I have answered you, you just dont/wont accept my answer and keep trying to pressure me into answering the way you want me to. If that is not the case then I take that back, but that is how you are coming off right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

The solution shouldnt be to take the MP regens away from WHM and AST as built in abilities just to give one to SCH when they can just give one to Scholar. Not like White Mage doesnt have two methods of restoring MP (IE Shroud of Saints and Assize which restores 10% mp)

---

Can we not try to validate your point by bringing up other skills that are not part of Lucid Dream / Shroud of saints / Lumineferous Aether? These are the things you are specifically trying to get fixed, and its not fair to throw Assize into the Mix, as much as it is Ewer, or any other MP regen ability. With that said, my point still stands...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

I'm trying to make the point that there is a ripple effect to making changes without looking at how it will effect everyone.

---

They've gone through the play testing and balancing, and I think the devs have a handle on whats going on.

How exactly is it wrong to validate my point by commenting on the fact that WHM and AST both have like two means of regenerating MP? With the coming nerf (unless it was changed) to Aetherflow's MP regen, instead of taking built in MP regens from WHM and AST just to give one to SCH, they should just build one such move into SCH, then everyone is happy :/

They simply don't want you to have everything.
That's the whole point of the cross-role skills system.

If we get from the premise that you choose a role action for maximizing the DPS while keeping everyone alive (which is healer's meta since forever), you must always have:

Swiftcast : in dungeons and raids, no reasons to not have that. A dead party member is a huge DPS loss if it takes 7 secs to raise him.

Largesse : More potent healing output means less time using GCD heals means more time DPSing. Also helps with mana since less heals needed.

Lucid dreaming : AOE Holy/Gravity spam. Helps absorbing rezzing mana cost. Mandatory in raids for rez and in general. Assize's reduced CD and Ast's ewer isn't nearly sufficient if you 100% uptime DPS and heal (even without rezzing).

So for choices. Just give those 3 to all healers and give 2 choices for 7 abilities. What a joke of a system. Of all the abilities, only rescue is new. Why bother changing the current system for this one? It's EXACTLY the same system, except now it isn't tied to jobs and jobs lose some spells that they will need to reclaim anyway.

edit : For Scholars: I don't have this job leveled, so if something doesn't apply to you, i'm sorry!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alex1902

If we get from the premise that you choose a role action for maximizing the DPS while keeping everyone alive (which is healer's meta since forever), you must always have:

Swiftcast : in dungeons and raids, no reasons to not have that. A dead party member is a huge DPS loss if it takes 7 secs to raise him.

Largesse : More potent healing output means less time using GCD heals means more time DPSing. Also helps with mana since less heals needed.

Lucid dreaming : AOE Holy/Gravity spam. Helps absorbing rezzing mana cost. Mandatory in raids for rez and in general. Assize's reduced CD and Ast's ewer isn't nearly sufficient if you 100% uptime DPS and heal (even without rezzing).

So for choices. Just give those 3 to all healers and give 2 choices for 7 abilities. What a joke of a system. Of all the abilities, only rescue is new. Why bother changing the current system for this one? It's EXACTLY the same system, except now it isn't tied to jobs and jobs lose some spells that they will need to reclaim anyway.

edit : For Scholars: I don't have this job leveled, so if something doesn't apply to you, i'm sorry!

---

I keep saying all they need to do to fix the problem with Scholar is just GIVE THEM a Cleanse and MP Regen ability akin to Shroud of Saints or Luminiferous Aether built into them without all this unnecessary Cross Role stuff, while simultaniously leaving the other healers as they are with the stuff that has always been core built into them. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

I keep saying all they need to do to fix the problem with Scholar is just GIVE THEM a Cleanse and MP Regen ability akin to Shroud of Saints or Luminiferous Aether built into them without all this unnecessary Cross Role stuff, while simultaniously leaving the other healers as they are with the stuff that has always been core built into them. :/

---

I fail to see the problem.... each healer has a built in MP regen skill and the option to take an additional via the new role skill system. SCH = Aetherflow, WHM + Asize, AST = Ewer

If running DF dungeon roulettes, no skills are required. All I hear on the forums lately is that healing is barely required, so why bother taking Largesse or Protect. If I have so much down time, do I really need Swiftcast.... clearly I have the time for the full Raise cast time. Lucid dreaming is the only ability which I think I will always take.... the others are just nice to have.

Once you hit full party content, one healer will need Protect, and Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming i will likely be staples as well. That leaves 2-3 skills open. Esuna will be based on the content you run..... swap it in when needed.

I don't see myself taking Largesse on any content lower then EX primals. The whole point of the change was to remove sub-job leveling requirements... The system achieved that and provides minimal customization as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I fail to see the problem.... each healer has a built in MP regen skill and the option to take an additional via the new role skill system. SCH = Aetherflow, WHM + Asize, AST = Ewer

---

You must not know, they are planning to remove Cleansers and MP Regens from Healers, by which I am directly refering to Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches for the Cleansers and Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether.

Btw, if I understood you right, there is no way they would put Ewer in the Cross Role, that is one of an Astrologians 6 core Arcanuum, the cards that give Party Buffs. And they would never move Aetherflow to Cross Role nor would they do that to Assize. Doing such a thing to any of these would make even less sense then what has already been messed up by the Cross Role. Yes I havent played SB yet, but I have a very bad feeling that this Cross Role, is not gonna be fun. People keep asking me for a why, but its hard to explain something when Ive tried a dozen times and no longer have any other way I could possibly explain, some people either refuse understand or they cannot understand unless they are part of those people who actually understand me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

If running DF dungeon roulettes, no skills are required. All I hear on the forums lately is that healing is barely required, so why bother taking Largesse or Protect. If I have so much down time, do I really need Swiftcast.... clearly I have the time for the full Raise cast time. Lucid dreaming is the only ability which I think I will always take.... the others are just nice to have.

Once you hit full party content, one healer will need Protect, and Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming i will likely be staples as well. That leaves 2-3 skills open. Esuna will be based on the content you run..... swap it in when needed.

I don't see myself taking Largesse on any content lower then EX primals. The whole point of the change was to remove sub-job leveling requirements... The system achieved that and provides minimal customization as well.

---

Or they could just take the starting classes (before obtaining Job Stones) out of the game entirely and have just the Job Classes like Astrologian, Machanist and Dark Knight. These classes have abilities ranging all the way back to lvl 1 all the way up to the soon to be level 70 without needing to have a class that leads into it, meaning they have a plethora of innate abilities that normally carrier over from another. Case in point, whatever a Conjurer learned is also known and used by the White Mage. But instead of having Conjurer for example, just take Conjurer out and leave nothing but White Mage, Ive heard people talk about this more then once and honestly, while I understand that Pre Job classes are a thing, if Astrologian, Machanist and Dark Knight can do it, so can every other class.

Addendum: I know people are probably going to look at me and out right say no to the whole notion of removing Pre Job classes but they've already done it with AST, MCH and DRK. Truthfully the Pre Job class idea has been adding a restrictive element to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

Addendum: I know people are probably going to look at me and out right say no to the whole notion of removing Pre Job classes but they've already done it with AST, MCH and DRK. Truthfully the Pre Job class idea has been adding a restrictive element to the game.

---

They were not removed from AST, MCH, or DRK. Those jobs never had class requirements to start with.

The main reason they can't remove the pre-class system from all the jobs is because of Lore and the story that are tied into them. That is the only real reason they will remain because in the end this is an RPG and story/Lore is life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

They were not removed from AST, MCH, or DRK. Those jobs never had class requirements to start with.

The main reason they can't remove the pre-class system from all the jobs is because of Lore and the story that are tied into them. That is the only real reason they will remain because in the end this is an RPG and story/Lore is life.

---

They could very easily progress the class into the job from a story point of view while removing the mechanical aspects of it (soul, etc). The only one that would be a problem really is arcanist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alex1902

Swiftcast : in dungeons and raids, no reasons to not have that. A dead party member is a huge DPS loss if it takes 7 secs to raise him.

---

This one kind of got me, too. Why keep SC in cross role when they could just make our freaking raise not take forever? There is no reason for it to take that long.

Dying has to have some downside, so I guess they decided making it take forever to raise + weakness was that answer.

That RDM raise is amazing, but I can't see it lasting in the game. They'll probably change it so their instants don't affect raise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

Dying has to have some downside, so I guess they decided making it take forever to raise + weakness was that answer.

That RDM raise is amazing, but I can't see it lasting in the game. They'll probably change it so their instants don't affect raise.

---

Raise costs a ton of mana, no matter the class. Double instant res will be handy, but your resources are going to be utterly ruined.

How "good" it'll be will come down to RDM's mana economy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

You must not know, they are planning to remove Cleansers and MP Regens from Healers, by which I am directly refering to Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches for the Cleansers and Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether.

---

SCH = Aetherflow, WHM + Asize, AST = Ewer are the skills the healers each have built in for MP regen in SB. That's what I meant. Lucid Dreaming is available to all healers as an additional MP regen tool, which seems fine to me.

WHM also has Thin Air, which isn't MP regen, but is still zero cost and a very powerful tool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

WHM also has Thin Air, which isn't MP regen, but is still zero cost and a very powerful tool.

---

A mana saved is a mana earned.

adapted from "A penny saved is a penny earned."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This one kind of got me, too. Why keep SC in cross role when they could just make our freaking raise not take forever? There is no reason for it to take that long.

---

Swiftcast has a lot more utility than just raise, at least in raiding. Being able to instant-cast medica or helios while running has long been a favored technique, as has the double-Holy/Gravity burst. SMN/SCH used to use it for Shadowflare as well, though... I guess not anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Furious

They could very easily progress the class into the job from a story point of view while removing the mechanical aspects of it (soul, etc). The only one that would be a problem really is arcanist.

---

This is what I meant Maku. I realize they were not removed from AST, MCH and DRK because they didnt have Pre Jobs, but that was the point I was making.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

SCH = Aetherflow, WHM + Asize, AST = Ewer are the skills the healers each have built in for MP regen in SB. That's what I meant. Lucid Dreaming is available to all healers as an additional MP regen tool, which seems fine to me.

---

As I told you, they are removing Cleansers and MP Regens from the core kits of the Healers, Lucid Dreaming is the Cross Role replacement for the MP Regens being ripped from the Healers with the exception of White Mage Assize and Aetherflow of SCH.

Addendum: What I mean by MP Regens being ripped away are the WHMs Shroud of Saints, Astrologians Luminiferous Aether, SCH didnt have a move like these but had Aetherflow and Energy Drain which are powerful MP regens on their own. Astrologian's Ewer card, while an MP Regen effect, I am not counting as it is a Randomly Drawn card that is part of the 6 Card system for ASTs

The problem with taking away Shroud of Saints from WHM and Luminiferous Aether from ASTs and throwing it into Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming is this needlessly took away a built in MP Regen from both classes, which didnt need to be done just to give SCH another MP regen when they already had 2 but if they needed another one, all they had to do was just add one to SCH as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Swiftcast has a lot more utility than just raise, at least in raiding. Being able to instant-cast medica or helios while running has long been a favored technique, as has the double-Holy/Gravity burst. SMN/SCH used to use it for Shadowflare as well, though... I guess not anymore.

---

As I'm fond of saying, Swiftcast is not for raise.

In raid progression I might reserve it at certain points to help recover if something goes wrong (assuming it's not one of those scenarios where any death guarantees failure).

In other content, if a party member dies...well, they can wait the extra few seconds for a hard-cast if I don't happen to have SC handy, or they can go bye-Felicia stage left and poof back. People die infrequently enough that it's not really an issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynfael

As I'm fond of saying, Swiftcast is not for raise.

In raid progression I might reserve it at certain points to help recover if something goes wrong (assuming it's not one of those scenarios where any death guarantees failure).

In other content, if a party member dies...well, they can wait the extra few seconds for a hard-cast if I don't happen to have SC handy, or they can go bye-Felicia stage left and poof back. People die infrequently enough that it's not really an issue.

---

Well, as a SCH, it's pretty much just for raise and fairy resummons. The only other spell a SCH had with a cast longer than gcd was Shadowflare, and with that instant now...

For WHM and AST it's true, though. A very useful utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ootarion

The problem with taking away Shroud of Saints from WHM and Luminiferous Aether from ASTs and throwing it into Cross Role as Lucid Dreaming is this needlessly took away a built in MP Regen from both classes, which didnt need to be done just to give SCH another MP regen when they already had 2 but if they needed another one, all they had to do was just add one to SCH as well.

---

Again... This is a game... Technically everything is needless. Explain what is wrong with the design rather than make general complains about what changed. For example, how does giving SCH access to LD hurt balance?

Remember too that they increased SCH mp cost for AoEing. AST and WHM had significant mp costs for AoE while SCH was very cheap comparatively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

Again... This is a game... Technically everything is needless. Explain what is wrong with the design rather than make general complains about what changed. For example, how does giving SCH access to LD hurt balance?

Remember too that they increased SCH mp cost for AoEing. AST and WHM had significant mp costs for AoE while SCH was very cheap comparatively.

---

I never once said that giving SCH access to an MP Regen effect was hurting balance, now you are just putting words in my mouth -.-

Furthermore I have again and again said what was wrong, but I am not gonna repeat myself again.

This is a game yes, but games have a point, they are meant to be fun, and even changes made to a game need to make sense. I could make an analogy right now but Im betting you would question it as well, cause you dont want to be wrong.

There is a difference between complaining and openly voicing a disagreement with something that SE is doing, and I am just voicing my disagreement.