Petition to keep non-instanced dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Suborn Ignorance is not an Excuse.

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Ya, but we are going to be the best lancer duo eva!

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Hey man I love Rail shooters as much as the next guy, but I don't want my MMO on rails.

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That makes no sense at all. If 2.0 will allow them to make things as dynamic as they say, there's significantly more they can do in an instance than an open dungeon.

But to throw your attitude right back at you, I can say "Hey man, I enjoy staring at my belly button just as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I want to stare at my belly button in an MMO."

Because that's what open world dungeons boil down to. Unchallenging key farming or sitting still waiting for the next NM pop window. The worst part is when you wait for that target monster to pop just for someone else to get claim. I love spending three hours of waiting for a pop just to watch someone else play the game.

Cutters' Cry is a great example of what can be done in an instance. Splitting up the team and requiring communication and coordination is awesome.

The people who are against instances have yet to present a valid reason why their so bad other than grandiose exaggerations. "Rail shooter?" Really? Whether its an open dungeon or an instanced one, it's still going to be a series of hallways and rooms where your goal is to get from Point A to the final battle at Point B. at least in an instance they can create an experience that reacts to a single group rather than crowded farming sessions.

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WE want both!

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So do people on the pro-instance side. But the discussion needs to be deeper than "just give us both."

MMOs are about discovering a world. But it is indeed a long-term experience and there can he only so much to explore. So it comes down to the question of what's worth repeating? To which the answer is contingent on what gives the best rewards?

So I suppose I should change my "All endgame should be instanced" to say "The best rewards should be from instances."

There's nothing wrong with creating interesting little places that are unique to the world's lore, but if we have to repeat an event for years to achieve something it shouldn't be further impeded by other players stepping on our toes.

The "more open world" side of the discussion seem to hold the belief that all instances will be a repeat of Darkhold too. Which with ideas like the Crystal Tower in the pipes, just isn't the case. But an instance raid still is exploration.

I guess what I don't understand about the people on the "less instance" side of things is this concept of exploration. Exploration in any game has such a limited shelf life. It's a once-and-done experience.

I personally loved the climb in Attowah Chasm in XI. The view from the top was awesome. But then I took my screenshot and never went back -- to the mountain, not the zone (obviously dragons gotta die, adventurers gotta lot Earth Crystals).

Unless they design the game to be a completely open and vast world there can't possibly be enough to keep people playing for years. Because the thing is, we've all played that game. It was called Final Fantasy XIV circa 2010. There's still plenty of open space to "explore," but what's the point?

In the end, MMOs aren't exploration games. They're objective-based gear grinds that reward us with periodic storytelling.

I do my exploring in the real world. When I sit down to play XIV I want to team up with some friends and actually play a video game. So for the "Go play Vindictus" crowd; no thanks. I'll go play XIV because they're making the game I want to play.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Exploration in any game has such a limited shelf life. It's a once-and-done experience.

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I agree with most of what you said, but this just doesn't mesh with me. Exploration, to me at least, should be a constant and continual experience. Enough content to keep you exploring long enough so you can feel some light nostalgia over places you haven't been to in a while. That's what I like about the Elder Scrolls games.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I agree with most of what you said, but this just doesn't mesh with me. Exploration, to me at least, should be a constant and continual experience. Enough content to keep you exploring long enough so you can feel some light nostalgia over places you haven't been to in a while. That's what I like about the Elder Scrolls games.

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I guess that's what I'm not understanding. How is that exclusive to non-instance areas?

I get the impression that people want these vast empty space with little nooks and crannies to investigate for the sake of saying you went to see them this one time.

I'm not saying that an MMO shouldn't have an open living world. It definitely should. But at the end of the day it's still a game about strengthening your character and experiencing story.

That's why I'd prefer a smaller open world with more in it and top gear coming from instanced events. That way everything can happen on the player's schedule aside from inconsequential things like random events such as Garlean raids on an Aetheryte camp or a dragon flying by.

Personally, I just don't want to go back to the days of the best gear dropping from open world monsters. There's nothing fun about being up at 3a.m. For then tenth night in a row trying to convincer yourself that "If I stuck it out this long, I may as well wait one more window."

But perhaps that's where some miscommunication is coming in. What do people want in the open world that already isn't there or on the way?

If we're talking about something like having an open stronghold guarding the entrance to a raid, I can totally get behind that. But not an open stronhmghold leading to a claim fest.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Suborn Ignorance is not an Excuse.

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No but he is allowed his own vision for the game "he" is developing, if you don't like it leave and play something else.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Cutters' Cry is a great example of what can be done in an instance. Splitting up the team and requiring communication and coordination is awesome.

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This.

I think people overestimate meeting people in an open world, most of the friends and LS's I have met have been for quests and dungeon content.

As someone pointed out in the other thread, he asked the question in one of the polls and the majority voted for instanced content, he got his answer.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

I guess that's what I'm not understanding. How is that exclusive to non-instance areas?

I get the impression that people want these vast empty space with little nooks and crannies to investigate for the sake of saying you went to see them this one time.

I'm not saying that an MMO shouldn't have an open living world. It definitely should. But at the end of the day it's still a game about strengthening your character and experiencing story.

That's why I'd prefer a smaller open world with more in it and top gear coming from instanced events. That way everything can happen on the player's schedule aside from inconsequential things like random events such as Garlean raids on an Aetheryte camp or a dragon flying by.

Personally, I just don't want to go back to the days of the best gear dropping from open world monsters. There's nothing fun about being up at 3a.m. For then tenth night in a row trying to convincer yourself that "If I stuck it out this long, I may as well wait one more window."

But perhaps that's where some miscommunication is coming in. What do people want in the open world that already isn't there or on the way?

If we're talking about something like having an open stronghold guarding the entrance to a raid, I can totally get behind that. But not an open stronhmghold leading to a claim fest.

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I couldn't disagree any harder.

If you make a game purely instanced, there wouldn't be a sense of exploration. Rather than choose where you would like to go, you could just pick what instanced event you would like to do.

Me on the other hand, I like my MMO to have places to go, beautiful sights to see. And whilst exploring I, often, like to see a nice dragon that happens to be up.

Oh you are bored, Maybe you wanna skill up your craft while camping this nm? 3 hours well spent! I miss those days

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Me on the other hand, I like my MMO to have places to go, beautiful sights to see. And whilst exploring I, often, like to see a nice dragon that happens to be up.

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None of which we have at the moment, Mor Dhona is about as nice as it gets and that place is pretty barren.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

None of which we have at the moment, Mor Dhona is about as nice as it gets and that place is pretty barren.

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This is a good call sir.

I am not saying that we have these zones yet, but I would like to see Open World content around when these areas become more readily available.

Remember taking in Attowha Chasm for the first time, checking out how awesome it looked. Then bam, there is this dragon in front of you. Its those magical moments that instanced raids take away.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I couldn't disagree any harder.

If you make a game purely instanced, there wouldn't be a sense of exploration. Rather than choose where you would like to go, you could just pick what instanced event you would like to do.

Me on the other hand, I like my MMO to have places to go, beautiful sights to see. And whilst exploring I, often, like to see a nice dragon that happens to be up.

Oh you are bored, Maybe you wanna skill up your craft while camping this nm? 3 hours well spent! I miss those days

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So what you're saying, in short, is that you want HNMs back? No thanks. Spawn camping is boring.

If XIV is going to be successful the key element needs to be accessibility. Open world 24-72 hour NMs just don't provide that. That may have been okay in 2002 but not 2012. And that has nothing to do with a "gimme nao" mentality. I don't expect a gumball to drop every time I press a button, but I do want to press that button on my own schedule.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Yosh-p has stated that he wants to make all dungeons instanced. That doesn't settle well with me. Considering I love the rank 20(15) open dungeon, I've stated my reasons in another thread a while back. He said that the open world content will be the strongholds (there's a few more, I know).

I'm making this thread to keep and to make more open world dungeons. Please sign and like this thread if you want to see this happen. Please do not post saying "INSTANCED IS BEST" this is a thread for the people who want to keep and see more open world dungeons. Thank you.

PS: I'm not saying to take out instanced dungeons, but to keep non instanced ones and keep making more, along side the instanced ones...

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Amen to this, Rokien. I'm not sure if this is an accurate analogy, but using XI as a base, is this basically what is meant by the term "dungeon:"


Dynamis, Salvage, and Sea would be examples of "instanced dungeons."

Sky would be an example of an "open-world dungeon?"

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

...The people who are against instances have yet to present a valid reason why their so bad other than grandiose exaggerations....Whether its an open dungeon or an instanced one, it's still going to be a series of hallways and rooms where your goal is to get from Point A to the final battle at Point B.


***At least in an instance they can create an experience that reacts to a single group rather than crowded farming sessions.***

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You, basically, just summed up the rationale of all those who have come to hate the instanced raids. We're playing an MMORPG...not Campaign Mode on Halo 3. People want to be involved in things as a COMMUNITY.


Yes, "losing claims" sucks a$$; but, I'd rather be surrounded by a bunch of random ppl talking about w/e interests them/me, than getting together w/ the same handful of ppl day in and day out just to "grind through the content."

Where's the fun in that?

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Amen to this, Rokien. I'm not sure if this is an accurate analogy, but using XI as a base, is this basically what is meant by the term "dungeon:"


Dynamis, Salvage, and Sea would be examples of "instanced dungeons."

Sky would be an example of an "open-world dungeon?"

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I would say Sky is actually a zone with open world content.

FF11 had a lot more instanced content than open world, especially considering some of the quests/missions and BCNM fights.

Most of the HNM and low level NM's drop crap now anyways.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I would say Sky is actually a zone with open world content.

FF11 had a lot more instanced content than open world, especially considering some of the quests/missions and BCNM fights.

Most of the HNM and low level NM's drop crap now anyways.

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I want the open-worldness of just all of XI's zones.. something like that. Don't have enough time to word it eloquently, so flame as you will

Remember all the smaller nm's? Argus, Valk emp, etc. How much fun those used to be? Yes, they may have brought on some frustration at times, but they were so much fun. Also they brought a sense of accomplishment. I had multiple crafts at 100+3 solely due to nm/hnm camping.

If this game goes to solely instanced-based I will be saying so long and farewell. This game has leagues to go before it captures FFXI's sense of adventure.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I want the open-worldness of just all of XI's zones.. something like that. Don't have enough time to word it eloquently, so flame as you will

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I'm not going to flame you for your opinion.

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Remember all the smaller nm's? Argus, Valk emp, etc. How much fun those used to be? Yes, they may have brought on some frustration at times, but they were so much fun. Also they brought a sense of accomplishment. I had multiple crafts at 100+3 solely due to nm/hnm camping.

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There is nothing to stop dungeon bosses dropping craftable loot in the future, I kind of liked that the first NMs did this.

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If this game goes to solely instanced-based I will be saying so long and farewell. This game has leagues to go before it captures FFXI's sense of adventure.

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I think the sense of adventure is pretty good in this game, .... when there is new content, I'm sure everyone is enjoying the world and exploring places with the Job questing.

Even if the majority of end game ends up instanced there will still be other stuff in the open world to do, gather, farm items, XP parties etc.

No competition, no huge thrills, etc.

I appreciate your opinion however, and respect it. I for one though, will not be swayed. I love my open world content :)

I just wish there was a way to fit both in, to give us the best of both worlds. I know, I know, XI references are something you guys don't generally like. But why not something XI-ish... There were so many instanced raid-type situations. But at the same time, for the ones of us who loved the rush of getting KB with 60 people hoping you die so they can get it. Then not getting D-ring.

I do support instanced raids, but I don't want the game to depend on everything to be "instanced"

edit: and sir, I do not think that this game has quite captured that sense of adventure. Every zone (for the most part) looks the same.

Do you remember being level 9, sitting in North Gustaberg just wandering around zones because not only did the zone have good music, but it looked awesome? Strolling into Gusgen just to get taken down by the skeles... wandering through the marshes just to see your first malboro and then run hoping it didnt see you.

This game is getting so much better, but that sense of mysticism, and wonder.. it does not have.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

No competition, no huge thrills, etc.

I appreciate your opinion however, and respect it. I for one though, will not be swayed. I love my open world content :)

I just wish there was a way to fit both in, to give us the best of both worlds. I know, I know, XI references are something you guys don't generally like. But why not something XI-ish... There were so many instanced raid-type situations. But at the same time, for the ones of us who loved the rush of getting KB with 60 people hoping you die so they can get it. Then not getting D-ring.

I do support instanced raids, but I don't want the game to depend on everything to be "instanced"

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Simple. Like Zaharak, have an open-world stronghold but at the end of it have the entrance to the instanced raid. I think that's the best way to make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Simple. Like Zaharak, have an open-world stronghold but at the end of it have the entrance to the instanced raid. I think that's the best way to make everyone happy.

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I can meet you in the middle of this one.

Although when comparing Zaharak to say, Castle Oztroha (sp?) (or ghelsba) it is very miniscule.

If we would have major NM's, possibly an HNm roaming in the open world, but also have bosses, or quests that are only in the "instanced" raid that comes near the end of the zone, i would be all for it.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I can meet you in the middle of this one.

Although when comparing Zaharak to say, Castle Oztroha (sp?) (or ghelsba) it is very miniscule.

If we would have major NM's, possibly an HNm roaming in the open world, but also have bosses, or quests that are only in the "instanced" raid that comes near the end of the zone, i would be all for it.

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I don't get what the problem is, exactly. Jinko just said that most of FFXI's content was "instanced." If Sky isn't considered an open-world "dungeon," then why would people bother complaining about instanced dungeons.

From what I understand, FFXI didn't really have any open-world dungeons? and it was just about a perfect blend of open-world content* and dungeons, imo.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

I don't get what the problem is, exactly. Jinko just said that most of FFXI's content was "instanced." If Sky isn't considered an open-world "dungeon," then why would people bother complaining about instanced dungeons.

From what I understand, FFXI didn't really have any open-world dungeons? and it was just about a perfect blend of open-world content* and dungeons, imo.

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Not sure if you played ffxi..

It had plenty of instanced raids yes.. but it also had a vast, and thriving open world side to it too.

From Bastok to Sandy, Sandy to Windy, there was so much to explore. I mean just look at the wiki and check out all the zones, open world NM's, etc..

From Sea, to Sky, regular zones, to every small nook and cranny zone out there.. FFXI had so much to explore in the sense of an "open world"

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Not sure if you played ffxi..

It had plenty of instanced raids yes.. but it also had a vast, and thriving open world side to it too.

From Bastok to Sandy, Sandy to Windy, there was so much to explore. I mean just look at the wiki and check out all the zones, open world NM's, etc..

From Sea, to Sky, regular zones, to every small nook and cranny zone out there.. FFXI had so much to explore in the sense of an "open world"

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lol you just proved my point. This seems to be a discussion about open-world DUNGEONS, not open-world CONTENT, in general. The two aren't mutually exclusive. XIV can have nothing BUT instanced dungeons, and still manage to incorporate all the "vast, thriving, open-world content on the side." XI already did it.

I ADORED FFXI, and agree that the open-world content was very enjoyable....but like Jinko said, most of XI's ***dungeons*** were "instanced." Try to think of anything in XI that is like the Strong Holds in XIV. I played the game, off and on, for about 5 years.

And I can't think of anything. So, what's there to complain about?

Take your firey resolve to make XIV more like XI to the threads that really need it. I'll post a few for you (naturally, some of them are mine lol, but oh well):

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-do-you-prefer

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-point-in-time...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...FXIV-additions.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...OLL-(Favorites)

There are things I like and dislike about both open world dungeons and instanced dungeons. First off, let me share what I disliked about the way FFXI handled open world boss fights. I disliked standing around for literally hours on end waiting for something spawn, I feel that is wasting too much of my time in a video game that tells me to get a life every time I log in. I disliked losing claim on the boss that I stood around waiting for hours to spawn, only having to wait another 24 hours for a chance to compete against 10 other groups for it.

Now, let me share what I dislike about how "other" MMOs handle raids. I will talk about the one everyone loves to hate: World of Warcraft. I hate the way the new raid that comes out every patch replaces the old one. I hate doing the same thing every week for months on end. I like variety. I appreciate how there were literally so many things to do in FFXI that you could not fit them all into a week (well, someone with real life obligations couldn't).

In FFXIV, I would like to see a mix of both. But I would like SE to learn from their mistakes in FFXI and take a look at what other games are now doing with open world events, such as games like Rift, TERA (Nexus events coming new patch), and Guild Wars 2. They aren't making players wait around for hours for something to happen, and they let everyone participate instead of wasting all but one group's time. I would like to see open world world events where everyone can participate, feel useful, and walk away with something. I would also like to see a variety of dungeon events, not just the one or 2 dungeons that came out with the latest patch that render everything before it meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

lol you just proved my point. This seems to be a discussion about open-world DUNGEONS, not open-world CONTENT, in general. The two aren't mutually exclusive. XIV can have nothing BUT instanced dungeons, and still manage to incorporate all the "vast, thriving, open-world content on the side." XI already did it.

I ADORED FFXI, and agree that the open-world content was very enjoyable....but like Jinko said, most of XI's ***dungeons*** were "instanced." Try to think of anything in XI that is like the Strong Holds in XIV. I played the game, off and on, for about 5 years.

And I can't think of anything. So, what's there to complain about?

Take your firey resolve to make XIV more like XI to the threads that really need it. I'll post a few for you (naturally, some of them are mine lol, but oh well):

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-do-you-prefer

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-point-in-time...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...FXIV-additions.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...OLL-(Favorites)

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You aren't thinking very hard. While it can be argued that the burning circles is instanced. They do not encompass the entire dungeon.

Bedeaux
Davoi
Castle ostroja
Mamook
Halvung
The Ship graveyard zone whose name escapes me

All these are beastman areas, with bosses that can be seen and faced outside of an instance forcefully separating the players.
Anyone can enter the trap door leading to Tee Xicu the Manifest, Anyone can cross the zone line and see Qulun Dome, and Za' Dha.

And yes, they do count even though they are years old.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You aren't thinking very hard. While it can be argued that the burning circles is instanced. They do not encompass the entire dungeon.

Bedeaux
Davoi
Castle ostroja
Mamook
Halvung
The Ship graveyard zone whose name escapes me

All these are beastman areas, with bosses that can be seen and faced outside of an instance forcefully separating the players.
Anyone can enter the trap door leading to Tee Xicu the Manifest, Anyone can cross the zone line and see Qulun Dome, and Za' Dha.

And yes, they do count even though they are years old.

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I was thinking this very thing... I'm not sure what FFXI he played...

Most of XI's dungeons were not "instanced"... ALbeit, there were many, MANY great instances (Namis, Einherjar, BCNM's, etc) but I mean think of all the FFXI "Dungeon" areas... Eldieme, Garlaige, etc etc the open world dungeon zones.. there were plenty of areas non-instanced, and they coexisted beautifully with the ones that were.

I appreciate that we can constructively argue this point without coming to flames though. I just would like to see more than instanced raids in FFXIV, that are all the same. I would like to see a vast map, different areas with beautiful locations that make you want to play. Not power level jobs, speed craft, just to finish your AF quests and have nothing to do till next patch.

This does make me happy that people are speaking up about this problem.

I agree 100% with the OP, I want to keep BOTH open-world dungeons AND instanced dungeons. It would really upset me if Yoshi-P gets rid of all open-world dungeons.

So here’s me signing my name on this petition
-Mystina Valeth


EDIT: btw just out of curiosity, can anyone post a quote of Yoshi-P saying that he wanted to get rid of open-world dungeons? I scanned through the 23 pages of this thread to see if anyone has already posted a quote of Yoshi-P, but didn’t feel like reading every single post word for word. Thanks in advance ^^

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Originally Posted by Jinko

No but he is allowed his own vision for the game "he" is developing, if you don't like it leave and play something else.

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Yeah, we see how well that worked last time you said that. Everyone DID leave, forcing a development managerial change as well as forcing SE to decide to rebuild the game for 2.0. not to mention having to merge servers due to everyone accepting your offer.

When the game is free or he pays every players game fee's then it can be his luxury to make it as his vision, and ignore what 1/2 or all of the populations likes.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

As someone pointed out in the other thread, he asked the question in one of the polls and the majority voted for instanced content, he got his answer.

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Your making references to someone elses misinformation to support your arguement. There were no direct questions to if anyone preferes instanced or none instanced material. The question conditionally asked about the target claiming system in reference to content being open world or instanced.

I am repeatedly exclaiming that we need both. You appear to keep at me, bashing open world. Are you now claiming we do not need an even and fair mesh of both? Are you saying we need to be 100% instanced?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I think the sense of adventure is pretty good in this game, .... when there is new content, I'm sure everyone is enjoying the world and exploring places with the Job questing.

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While a select few may do this, many do this.

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*Checks Anima*
Ok time to look up where I need to be, teleport there, teleport to the area it wants me to fight at, teleport back, get the next quest and teleport...

The world is currently barren and I don't blame people for wanting to "Skip" the whole world part. I want the game to have a open world where people might actually have a second though about wanting everything closed off in instanced areas.

What happens when I want to get a cool screenshot of the Darkhold? Pester 4 people to go with me? I'd rather Ninja my way through a Zone I should never be caught alone in.

I hate the fact that instances limit when you can go to them, who you need to have, how long you can be in them.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You aren't thinking very hard. While it can be argued that the burning circles is instanced. They do not encompass the entire dungeon.

Bedeaux
Davoi
Castle ostroja
Mamook
Halvung
The Ship graveyard zone whose name escapes me

All these are beastman areas, with bosses that can be seen and faced outside of an instance forcefully separating the players.
Anyone can enter the trap door leading to Tee Xicu the Manifest, Anyone can cross the zone line and see Qulun Dome, and Za' Dha.

And yes, they do count even though they are years old.

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OMG.......you're right lol


RAGE ON, ThePatriarch!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

OMG.......you're right lol


RAGE ON, ThePatriarch!!!!!!!!

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What are you talking about, he is agreeing with my point... Stop making moot posts, unless you can bring something constructive to the table.

Lets try to keep this thread on topic.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Do you remember being level 9, sitting in North Gustaberg just wandering around zones because not only did the zone have good music, but it looked awesome? Strolling into Gusgen just to get taken down by the skeles... wandering through the marshes just to see your first malboro and then run hoping it didnt see you. .

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NO.. no I did not, are you trying to say I was some Bastokian scum !!

I do have similar memeories from starting out in Sarutabaruta though.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

You aren't thinking very hard. While it can be argued that the burning circles is instanced. They do not encompass the entire dungeon.

Bedeaux
Davoi
Castle ostroja
Mamook
Halvung
The Ship graveyard zone whose name escapes me

All these are beastman areas, with bosses that can be seen and faced outside of an instance forcefully separating the players.
Anyone can enter the trap door leading to Tee Xicu the Manifest, Anyone can cross the zone line and see Qulun Dome, and Za' Dha.

And yes, they do count even though they are years old.

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All those places you mention are zones agreed much like Stongholds, they have bosses but I would hardly call them HNM's.

I actually like the way FFXIV has its small instance party content which is seperate from other players whilst still being in the main world. (faction leve NM's for example)

Also things like Final Job quests bosses or ZNM's in FFXI, this allows everyone their own chance with a boss without having to wait for hours for a spawn only to lose it to a botter.

There are clearly compromises that can be made on both sides, that being said Yoshi-p seems to be in favour of mainly instance based content and I'm cool with that also.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Most of XI's dungeons were not "instanced"... ALbeit, there were many, MANY great instances (Namis, Einherjar, BCNM's, etc) but I mean think of all the FFXI "Dungeon" areas... Eldieme, Garlaige, etc etc the open world dungeon zones.. there were plenty of areas non-instanced, and they coexisted beautifully with the ones that were.

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There seems to be some confusion as to what a dungeon is here, when I say dungeon I think instanced content, when you say dungeon you mean like a labyrinth zone which you have to crawl through.

All those area's Kallera mentioned above to me are zones and not dungeons.

a balance of both is good. What is the difference between an open world dungeon and an open world stronghold? they seem like the same thing to me

Since 2.0 will be going to a zoning structure, dungeons can all be public(except the story/boss exclusive ones like ifrit and moogle.) But make them like Shposhae(sp?) the low level dungeon. But the solo player or party leader has the option to trigger instance. This provides players who want both what they want. So you enter a dungeon solo see some people fighting but cannot get forward to the boss so they invite you have full group toggle groups instance of the dungeon and take a go at the harder levels then the boss.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I would say Sky is actually a zone with open world content.

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An Open-World Dungeon IS a Zone with Open world content. It is a "Dungeon-like" zone.

They are intricate/difficult to navigate.

They have treasure and rare spawns.

They evoke the emotional response you obtain from exploring a dungeon.

They are they a places where the Community can interact on a level beyond party grinding and LS chat.

They have Content that requires Large groups of players and Content that can be completed alone or in small groups.

These are the Kind of place where you can happen upon something to do. Where there are always people doing something and sometimes you may have to ask a passerby for help.

FFXI attempted to do it with places like Monovopolis, Castle Oztroja and Garlage Citidel. They only failed in that they did not actually make any content for these areas.

Wooo! Almost to 200! ^.^v

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

What are you talking about, he is agreeing with my point... Stop making moot posts, unless you can bring something constructive to the table.

Lets try to keep this thread on topic.

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lol you misunderstood....look at my post again, dude. I was suggesting that you continue "raging," b/c I agreed too xD -take notice of the "comma" before your name. It was an "order" to carry on with your debate. If I hadn't agreed w/ you, I would have said, "kallera, rage on Thepatriarch!!" -in that sentence, kallera is the "subject," and you're the object....in MY post, you're the "subject," blah blah blah -grammar 101


Anyway, in regards to staying on topic, this is WHY I didn't "agree" w/ you before....please read Jinko's post:

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All those places you mention are zones agreed much like Stongholds, they have bosses but I would hardly call them HNM's...

...There seems to be some confusion as to what a dungeon is here, when I say dungeon I think instanced content, when you say dungeon you mean like a labyrinth zone which you have to crawl through.

All those area's Kallera mentioned above to me are zones and not dungeons.

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And if that's the case, then OPEN-WORLD dungeons vs. INSTANCED dungeons is not really an issue, man. You, me, and Kallera need to be in the threads I mentioned earlier, getting more ppl on board w/ the XI/XIV hybrid (a.k.a. the only idea capable of salvaging this abomination).

I'd like to repost here a pair of posts i placed in another thread on this subject, i think its content is even more relevent here. As a preface, i've been playing for now, about 3 weeks. It should be a long post with 2 parts, if you have the patience to read both, i appritiate it :D

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If i may, as a player who has only been playing for around 3 weeks, i wandered into a few open world dungeons. Shpo being one (and the first) of them as i was directed by a quest. I was kinda excited, though a lil underleveled i decided to give it a shot, and slowly worked my lancer way through bit by bit. It was fun, fighting my way through, running away screaming as too many crabs aggroed. and finally dying a bit into the second level.

What i enjoyed was sifting my way through with out directions, without expectations of an end point. Without zoning in and bypassing the trip there, or just seeing a cave in the distance and finding more then i bargained for (though they are marked on the map which is somewhat a spoiler but thats ok.)

Maybe its because many people in this thread have done it before, so the only remaining options to discuss is zerg fest spawn camping or instanced loot running, i don't know. But the value i see in having some open world dungeons is having a cave opening with no gate keeper giving it away. Had friends been made, maybe i could have called them and explored with them. But i just HAD to see.

I was thrilled for an out of the blue, no expectations of any real gain, adventure filled dungeon crawl.

So with that said, i don't think open dungeons should have the best loot. i don't much belive they should even have equal loot, i think their value can be in their extencive depth, lacking a time limit. Perhaps containing interesting puzzles to be solved. But most of all, for the adventurous folks like me who just have to see how far this cave goes.

---------------Second post--------------

Gear in alot of games is hotly discussed because when people do something difficult, and get a reward, they want to reward to somehow reflect that difficulty, and thats understandable. I can't hold anything against those who enjoy the endpoint. And as much as even i like to have something nice/rare/difficult to get it is often a fleeting moment. where you are stronger untill the moment something becomes nicer/rarer/even slightly more difficult to get, and the next endpoint is desired.

Someone like myself also enjoys the journey. Sometimes the journey can be the challenge but the challenge need not always be a large boss with a item drop. It can be the slow trod as i did in my last post, challenging it by myself to see whats there and how far i can get before i die.

But the journey can also be enjoyable without a standard expectation of gear, a certain type of gear relevent to something else somewhere else. Perhaps being underleveld and trying to follow in the wake of a group even though your all by yourself.

Maybe struggling through and finding another person, who like you, is attemtping the same thing. Heals are exchanged, then words, party invites and perhaps a friendship.

Or maybe to just see whats there. I wonder many times in many games if the discussion of gear and endpoint tends to block out discussions of many other important aspects of a game, even a genre based on adventure, exploration to know, not so much to aquire. Achivements is not exploration, they are only markers for places adventured. for some a list of points to plant their flag, and then quickly leave. And thats fine.

But for others, they are tokens of when the unknown became known. And i truly enjoy that aspect, and nothing encompasses those experiences as caves, old ruins etc. Unending fields and vast deserts while also very fun to explore, hold not quite the suspense and wonder as what is hidden from the world.

Earlier in this thread, though i'm having trouble finding the post to give credit a poster offered the idea of instanced boss fights within an open world dungeons, pull this lever/ place a lamp here, zone in as a limited group, instanced boss to fight.

I enjoy this idea alot, but i also would not want such a system to be the only exclusive one. As i would not want anyone to lose what they also enjoy, just as i wouldn't wish to lose the dungeon crawl i so thuroghly enjoyed. However, it would also aliviate some claim camp issues that have been so numerous over many games.

As far as gear goes, and as much as i would rather avoid the subject, as i tend to think it can overwhelm a topic. If i may, i'll add my thoughts. some issues always arrive with open world content when items are either tradeable and sellable, have a low drop rate of impressive stats. My thoughts on areas that are open and include gear drops tends to follow the same line i speak of above.

Adventure and the journey should be the theme. Perhaps any item drops should fore go the usuall stats and armor and low drop rates. And apply a more cosmetic, untradeable, and high droprate (80% even.) A mount (Just and ! example ! Could be statless hats with whisps circling it, use your imagination!) is only needed once per person. If it is not a great challenge to get by drop rate, there is less incentive to camp a spawn save for the duration of the groups need.

If the drop rate is high (or even garenteed) a group is more likely to include then exclude others who are after the same thing. If Open areas rely more on puzzles/pressure plates/ hidden keys perople are also more inclusive with others to find answers, join together, and have fun!

TL;DR So before i run out of /chars I belive the perspective of openworld and the rewards recived from them should be geared(pun intended) and directed towards the journey through them, the people you can meet within them, inclusiveness of those within, and the endventure of an untimed, set your pace, meet some people (and in my hope) Multi leveled many forks in the road adventure!

Thanks for your time, and i hope we will all find a little something we love to do in as many ways as we love to do it here!

Reworded the Quotes:

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Originally Posted by Viritess

Someone, like myself, enjoys the journey as well as the reward; but the journey doesn't always have to lead to a boss fight with a nice drop. It can be the slow trod, challenging in and of itself, simply "taken on" to see what's there and how far you can get before you die.

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I agree, completely. Not every SINGLE "dungeon-like zone" should be centered around the idea of beating a boss. Again, forgive the example, but in XI, even the damn "Airship Pass/Rank 5" quest was more enjoyable than half the content in this game.

You had to enter 3 separate dungeons, "explore" to get to the most heavily guarded area of the "dungeon," to pick up some ??? item-thing, for intel or something -don't remember lol....ANYWAY, the point is, it was just another "adventure" with no real game-changing gain/reward.

I would definitely like to see something like this in XIV. Not everything has to be Sentinel/Sapahi/Caster's or w/e for every damn place you enter. Instead of trying to think up new pretty things to distract us, why not find innovative ways to "immerse us."

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...As far as gear goes, ...some issues always arrive with open world content (when items are either tradeable and sellable, orhave a low drop rate of impressive stats).

My thoughts, on open areas that include gear drops, tend to follow this premise:

Adventure should be the theme.

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I can't say that I feel the same. Yes, it's nice to try and incorporate a "casual-like" feel to the game, even when it comes to gear drops (making it more of a community effort, rather than a chore for the individual). However, doing so will DRASTICALLY reduce the incentives for *hardcore* players. Part of the "adventure" is trying to "outclass" fellow players. This adds to the immersive feel of the game, and promotes "healthy" competition.

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Perhaps, any NM-dropped items should forego the usual impressively "statted," tradtional armor/low drop-rate cliche. Maybe, it should take on a different approach, like the following expamples:

~cosmeticly-focused rewards; untradeable, and high droprate (80% even.); mounts, possibly, etc.

...If the drop isn't so much trouble to come by, then there won't be as much of an incentive to "permanently" camp a spawn -save for the number of drops needed to satisfy the immediate demand....If the drop rate is high, or even guaranteed, a group is more likely to include others who are after the same thing, rather than excluding them and competing with them.

If open areas rely more on puzzles/pressure plates/hidden keys, people are much more likely to include others in their "adventures."

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Personally, I liked camping the spawns. It was another aspect of the game that added to the sense of accomplishment players would get once they claimed the NM, let alone getting the drop. That's another thing...the way NMs work right now is really tacky.

Players used to need to capitalize on a number of different features in order to successfully claim an NM (widescan, flee, provoke, charm, dia, stun, shadowbind, etc.). There were a number of different ways to give yourself the competitive edge when competing for claims, and that made the experience all the more "intense" (which further contributed to making NM camping, an enjoyable experience)

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Personally, I liked camping the spawns. It was another aspect of the game that added to the sense of accomplishment players would get once they claimed the NM, let alone getting the drop. That's another thing...the way NMs work right now is really tacky.

Players used to need to capitalize on a number of different features in order to successfully claim an NM (widescan, flee, provoke, charm, dia, stun, shadowbind, etc.). There were a number of different ways to give yourself the competitive edge when competing for claims, and that made the experience all the more "intense" (which further contributed to making NM camping, an enjoyable experience)

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To each their own. Because I remember the /sh bitchfests. The MPKs. The cure bombs to try and steal claims. Trying to cause a Spike Flail. Waiting five+ hours to see no spawn. Seeing mobs pop claimed. Spending weeks/months/years doing the same mind numbing challenges battles with no progress toward any sort of personal goal.

Yeah, there was some thrill in actually getting the claim. But it was countered and dwarfed by the immense overall frustration caused by the rest of the experience.

I understand people enjoyed it. But the Players' Poll spoke volumes about how few players actually want that experience again or ever.