Astro in savage

Collective Unconscious - When Y'stola uses it, it push monster away from the person she is trying to protect. Not sure if SE can even make it an actual physical barrier that mobs can't enter but at the very least remove the Sect effect and just combine it where it's a 10% damage reduction and also provide powerful regen. The main reason is because AST can't do anything while the bubble is up.

Spread - Not even sure if this a good idea or bad but would people prefer to save a card or save a royal road effect?

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Originally Posted by Arcana

I thought the same. I think SE AST designer did not a good job releasing the job in the actual state. Maybe he could be tested the job in Alexander Savage or check the global numbers vs the other healing class.

I am lvling whm right now because i think the AST rework it take several months that i dont want to wait. SE guys, take your time, do your tests but re-release a great healing-suport class again. The western and JP community will be happy ;3

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I hope you are prepared for an extremely heavy workload if you want to fix this job. I also encourage you to improve your testing protocol, because releasing a job in this state is not something that should ever happen.

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Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

I firmly believe they ship classes in a weaker state with the intention of buffing them later, and in their defense, AST has been able to heal everything up until now (so long as the party is competent and doesn't take avoidable damage, I mean).

Savage is likely the first time they've really, REALLY seen the AST's weaknesses, and they're already posting about how they're going to do something about it.

Again, yes, AST is weak, but let's not make it personal to the devs.

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Cards - Useless. That's right. Taken as a whole, they are useless. The buff strength is simply too small. Their power needs to be boosted so much that most people's initial reaction will be that the developers have gone overboard. The only thing that will allow the card system as a whole to be useful is for individual buffs to be very powerful. Because of the randomness of cards, these effects that at first glance seem extreme will balance out over time. Some of the card effects may even need to be changed entirely (Spear).

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I've said this in the past time and again and people don't seem to really get it.

The 10% chance at boosting DPS for 15 seconds comes at the cost of a 1 in 6 chance to get that ability, which averages out to a 1.67% DPS boost on one player per minute. It would have to be closer to a 40-60% DPS increase for 15 seconds to actually be worth anything, but as you said, people would cry OP because they don't understand how statistics work...

To the people healing this level of play-

One of the things I have seen mentioned is comparing lvl 50 AST to lvl 50 WHM/SCH and then saying they don't keep up the same way after 60. One if the things both WHM/SCH get post-50 is an instant aoe heal (assize/indomitability). Do you think adding an aoe heal component to CO or as a new skill would help a lot? The discussion seems to agree the lack of 'oh shit' buttons is part of the hindrance, and CO is awfully underwhelming for our capstone with such a long cd. DO you think adding a gcd reduction into Lightspeed, making you ACTUALLY able to pump out more healing in that duration instead of just frontloading, would fix the lack of real healing cd, or do we need more than one?

I would love to heal at this level of play but my fc is small and we are struggling just to put together a static. We probably could if everyone was online at the same time, but time zones....I may be more casual but I love this job and still want to contribute!

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

The 10% chance at boosting DPS for 15 seconds comes at the cost of a 1 in 6 chance to get that ability, which averages out to a 1.67% DPS boost on one player per minute. It would have to be closer to a 40-60% DPS increase for 15 seconds to actually be worth anything, but as you said, people would cry OP because they don't understand how statistics work...

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Uh, Richard, no offense, but I think you need to stop talking about math ^^; You're kinda putting a foot in your mouth with this assessment as you're showing you don't really understand how math works either .-. Again, no offense, and again, not trying to make you sound terrible.

I give you a minor correction that is in your favour though.

The actual increase to a personal player's DPS with Balance is 0.835% because it's a 10% boost at a 1/6 chance (10% * [ 1/6 ] = 1.67%) that has an up time of 15 second for every 30 seconds due to Draw's cooldown (1.67% * [15 / 30] ) = 0.835%).

There's a lot more statistical factors that need to be considered for proper card analysis and while the other effects from Draw do not directly affect DPS, they do indirectly affect them and change how you can play an AST. For example, Spear on a DRG or MCN will provide a small DPS increase because it'll generally be up when Jump / Quick Reload goes on cooldown. Any other ability they get with Spear is just a bonus past that. Likewise, as mentioned earlier in the post, Arrow is much more useful for a MNK / NIN than it is for other DPS classes.

The math isn't hard to do, but getting it "correct" is the hard part - and can also be left to interpretation on a per player basis. And doing all the potential permutations of card draws is a time consuming process.

Overall, the more I think about it, the happier I am with how the card system is. It needs a few minor tweaks - my gut instinct tells me increasing Balance and Arrow by 2% would be nice,or reducing Draw to a 20-25s CD would be great too.

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

To the people healing this level of play-

One of the things I have seen mentioned is comparing lvl 50 AST to lvl 50 WHM/SCH and then saying they don't keep up the same way after 60. One if the things both WHM/SCH get post-50 is an instant aoe heal (assize/indomitability). Do you think adding an aoe heal component to CO or as a new skill would help a lot? The discussion seems to agree the lack of 'oh shit' buttons is part of the hindrance, and CO is awfully underwhelming for our capstone with such a long cd. DO you think adding a gcd reduction into Lightspeed, making you ACTUALLY able to pump out more healing in that duration instead of just frontloading, would fix the lack of real healing cd, or do we need more than one?

I would love to heal at this level of play but my fc is small and we are struggling just to put together a static. We probably could if everyone was online at the same time, but time zones....I may be more casual but I love this job and still want to contribute!

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Well even at level 50 WHM/SCH have a good amount of healing CDs. They only got more with the expansion. But it's not just skills that allow them to pump out significantly more healing (or skills that allow them to prevent more damage), but they can do this for usually no mana cost whatsoever. Someone listed in the cooldowns for each healer and it shows pretty nicely what the problem is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ed_ast/ctd43mq

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The main issue is that ASTs don't have the utility that every other healer has to improve their own healing and it's extremely obvious in Savage Alex. ASTs have
* Collective Unconscious (90s)
* Synastry (120s)
* Disable (60s)
* Essential Dignity (60s)
WHMs have
* Shitty Virus (90s)
* Shitty E4E (180s)
* Tetragrammaton (60s)
* Benediction (300s)
* Assize (90s)
* Asylum (90s)
* Presence of Mind (150s)
* Divine Seal (60s)
Scholars have
* Dissipation (Almost as shit as CO) (180s)
* Virus (90s)
* E4E (120s)
* Deployment Tactics (120s)
* Indomitability (30s)
* Lustrate (0s)
* Sacred Soil (0s)
* Rouse (90s)
Imagine Scholars without any Aetherflow skills. That's basically the healing utility that Astrologians bring currently

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We have half the amount of healing CDs that the other healers have and the few we do have need improvements for the most part or are inferior to what the other healers have.

So basically what I'm trying to say is we need a lot more than a GCD reduction on Lightspeed. :( Yes I'm well aware that all of our card associated skills basically take up some of those healing CD skill slots. So improving that entire system - while also taking into account the inherent RNG - is going to need to be a big part of that. Along with improving the few other CDs we actually have.

Improving those few CDs shouldn't be a huge deal, but the problem comes with the card system. They take the skill slots of longer major healing CDs, while not actually being long major CDs. So they need to be comparable in overall benefit while keeping in mind that they're skills we'll be using consistently for much of the fight, so they can't be as powerful as a longer CD. Perhaps they can adjust the above skills to make up for that and allow us to more effectively handle emergency situations with those few skills.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Uh, Richard, no offense, but I think you need to stop talking about math ^^;

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Forgive me father, for I have sinned: i was tired and forgot to divide by two (I'll flog myself later in penance, don't you worry).

That totally justifies telling me that I "need to stop talking about math", which is then totally not offensive because it was prefaced with "no offense".

Never mind the fact that I was wrong in my favor, meaning my argument was actually stronger than I stated, so it's not like I was trying to mislead anyone.

Besides, if I stopped talking about math, who would you be smarmy and condescending to?

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Overall, the more I think about it, the happier I am with how the card system is. It needs a few minor tweaks - my gut instinct tells me increasing Balance and Arrow by 2% would be nice,or reducing Draw to a 20-25s CD would be great too.

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The more I think about it, the more astonished I am that you can revel in the math of this discussion like a, no offense, pig rolling in filth, yet somehow still completely miss the point of it...

We're talking about the fact that the buffs do not compensate for the AST's overall craptacular healing and terribad mana management. No amount of card micromanaging is going to change that fact.

Either the cards make a HUGE impact on ending the fight more quickly or the AST needs to have its healing potencies dramatically increased.

And you think a 2% increase on Bole and Balance is going to fix anything? Or these generally crap buffs arriving 5-10 seconds faster?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt (which is clearly more than you do for me...) and assume that in part two you follow it up with "...and some serious buffs to emergency healing potency and mana regen."

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Uh, Richard, no offense, but I think you need to stop talking about math ^^; You're kinda putting a foot in your mouth with this assessment as you're showing you don't really understand how math works either .-. Again, no offense, and again, not trying to make you sound terrible.

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People always say "no offense" before they say something obscenely offensive and uncalled for. I suggest you edit your post and apologize, because you're kinda putting a foot in your mouth with this assessment and you're showing you really don't understand how respect works either.

On a side note, nice work strengthening and agreeing with his point while you insulted him.

Oh yeah, and, ^^.

so if i get this right the OP and his supporters, want AST to have equal healing power to WHM or SCH, but give more dps to the raid than both? how is that gona be ballanced? and would the other jobs have the same problem if the AST has their healing power + more DPS? what would be the point to play SCH or WHM then?

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

so if i get this right the OP and his supporters, want AST to have equal healing power to WHM or SCH, but give more dps to the raid than both? how is that gona be ballanced? and would the other jobs have the same problem if the AST has their healing power + more DPS? what would be the point to play SCH or WHM then?

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Their specific wants may be too much, but the general opinion of the raiding community seems to be that AST is not exactly in a great place right now either.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

so if i get this right the OP and his supporters, want AST to have equal healing power to WHM or SCH, but give more dps to the raid than both? how is that gona be ballanced? and would the other jobs have the same problem if the AST has their healing power + more DPS? what would be the point to play SCH or WHM then?

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Ah no, a little bit of a misunderstanding here. What is being argued by the majority of the people here is that AST, as a healer first and foremost, needs to heal to the same capacity as a WHM or SCH to be viable in end game content.

The issue centering around DPS stem from the fact that SCH can put out a beastly amount of DPS itself as well as buffing their parties DPS (fey wind). It has emergency, instacast heals to facilitate the stance dancing.

Likewise WHM, with its new found lvl 52-60 abilities, can do beastly DPS in a raid, which is again facilitated by it powerfuly emergency heals.

AST at the moment can not bring much DPS to a raid, lacking the ability to quickly regain the healing situation once cleric stance is dropped, and its buffs are weaker than the SCH in terms of over all contribution to raid DPS.

Ther are lots of suggetsions on this thread. Some centre around the increase of AST support capabilities so the AST can increase the DPS of others to counteract the shortfall of overall DPS due to AST struggling to DPS itself. Some centre around increasing the number of emergency heals an AST has, thus facilitating the AST stance dancing and contribution to overall group DPS. Other are a hybrid of the pervious 2.

But, more than anything, the majority of people seem (feel free for anyone to disagree with me here, after all not everyone has the same opinion) to acknowledge the need to increase the AST healing capacity, healing cooldowns and emergency heal ability to make it a healer that is as viable in end game content as WHM and SCH currently are.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

so if i get this right the OP and his supporters, want AST to have equal healing power to WHM or SCH, but give more dps to the raid than both? how is that gona be ballanced? and would the other jobs have the same problem if the AST has their healing power + more DPS? what would be the point to play SCH or WHM then?

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That's really not what anyone's asking for.

No one wants AST to be overpowered by having godly heals and godly buffs (not anyone in their right mind, anyway), but AST either needs to bring as much to a raid as SCH/WHM do or there's no point in ever bringing one, ever.

The buffs are pretty damn terrible right now, but making them more potent isn't going to make the AST better at keeping people alive or anything so I don't personally think that's the route to go.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Forgive me father, for I have sinned: i was tired and forgot to divide by two.

That totally justifies telling me that I "need to stop talking about math", which is then totally not offensive because it was prefaced with "no offense".

Never mind the fact that I was wrong in my favor, meaning my argument was actually stronger than I stated, so it's not like I was trying to mislead anyone.

Besides, if I stopped talking about math, who would you be smarmy and condescending to?

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Consider how badly you use math to try to justify your position, yes, you should stop talking about math. Considering you're trying to argue balance, you're continued mishandling of math does nothing more than undermine your own position as an advocate for AST balance. I was trying to be nice and not try to make you look like a complete fool but hey, if you want to be salty, let's play.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

1.5% for each of 8 people, which is a cumulative increase of 12%. If we want to call it 1.5%, we can, we just have to then divide AST's 1.5% by 8 to get the actual number since we're only casting that buff on one person instead of 8.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

The 10% chance at boosting DPS for 15 seconds comes at the cost of a 1 in 6 chance to get that ability, which averages out to a 1.67% DPS boost on one player per minute. It would have to be closer to a 40-60% DPS increase for 15 seconds to actually be worth anything

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Your first error with your math is you have no understanding about how to balance the power of a card with the probability of the effect you're trying to garner. When you tried to equate 8 people doing 1.5% additional damage is the same as one person getting a 12% increase on a single player, you showed how heavy handed your balance suggestions actually are. As every player in the game has a different DPS potential due to their job, skill, and equipment, giving an extreme single target boost would be devastating to game balance.

Let's consider your example of boosting Balance and Arrow to 40-60%. Now, let's consider this A1S parse for Faust - the DPS check wall and make an assumption that we're gonna RR every first card for the bonus effect. Since we have Shuffle up every minute, you'll be guaranteed to get Arrow or Balance 55.5% [ 1/3 + ( 1/3 * 2/3) = 55.5%] of the time. We will also assume Arrow / Balance gives the same boost despite the job in question just for easy math (since everyone's baseline is Fey Wind 1.5% haste increase = 1.5% DPS increase).

Group DPS = 8,020
SMN DPS (highest) = 1,581.66

Extend Balance / Arrow = 20-30% increase in DPS 55.5% of the time = 11.1% - 16.7% increase = SMN DPS being increased by 175.56-264.14. A 2.2% to 3.3% increase in total raid DPS.
Enhanced Balance / Arrow = 15%-22.5% increase in DPS 55.5% of the time 8.3% - 12.5% = SMN DPS being increased by 131.28 - 197.71. A 1.6% to 2.5% increase in total raid DPS.
Expand Balance / Arrow = 10-15% increase in raid DPS 55% of the time = 5.6% to 8.3% increase to total raid DPS

So, right there alone, getting the WORST card combination is still a minimum of a 1.6% raid DPS increase. Then consider that drawing Balance in your initial draw is equal to drawing Extend. This means you have a 50% chance to get Extend (Balance/Arrow/Spear), 16.7% chance to get Enhance (Bole), and 33.3% chance to get Expand (Ewer/Spire). If you do the weighted averages.

With a 40% Balance/Arrow - 2.2%*0.50 + 1.6%*0.167 + 5.6%*0.333 = 1.10% + 0.27% + 1.86% = 3.23% average increase to raid damage
With a 60% Balance/Arrow - 3.3%*0.50 + 2.5%*0.167 + 8.3%*0.333 = 1.65% + 0.42% + 2.76% = 4.83% average increase to raid damage

So, at this point, why would I bother playing any other healer if double AST, with the buffs you're suggesting, and just have them alternate when they Royal Road and buff?

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

people would cry OP because they don't understand how statistics work...

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^ Which leads to the irony of this statement.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

The more I think about it, the more astonished I am that you can revel in the math of this discussion like a, no offense, pig rolling in filth, yet somehow still completely miss the point of it...

We're talking about the fact that the buffs do not compensate for the AST's overall craptacular healing and terribad mana management. No amount of card micromanaging is going to change that fact.

Either the cards make a HUGE impact on ending the fight more quickly or the AST needs to have its healing potencies dramatically increased

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I haven't missed the point. I just take issue with your attempts to make the card system "better" when it doesn't need the dramatic buffs that you continually suggest.

To me, AST will never be viable in any progression content because they lack the proper tools to heal efficiently. Buffs of any nature won't do you any good if your tanks and DPS are lying flat on the ground, and no amount of "buffs to cards" will fix that. Your buffs to cards will make AST the defacto healer to go to in farm content, but do nothing for low ilvl progression content. There will be an inflection point in player skill, gear, and job composition that will put an AST over a SCH or WHM in progression content, but that point will be a very narrow range.

That's why I made a few suggestions to Synastry and Celestial Opposition a few pages back to help with an ASTs output. Just to add to that, I'd like to see Enhanced Benefic be adjusted for which sect you're in. Having Diurnal Sect Benefic proc should make the spell become oGCD and having Nocturnal Sect Benefic proc should either make the spell cheaper in MP or heal for a higher %, perhaps in the range of 20-30%.

First thing first - balance the baseline healing toolkit so it's perfectly viable to take any healer to any content. Then make tweaks to the unique features of their kit. Afterwards, let the player's decide which healer they want to take based on their skill, gear, comfort level, and job composition.

Some very strong points made. A well thought out post but balance I believe is the only buff that exponentially buffs all damage across the board including cooldowns. If you manage to spread it pretty fight it has bumped dragoon dps by several hundred on burst phases and the 20 point potency hit only averages out to about a 5% heal difference. If someone dies while astrology was healing then the raid was moar likely in trouble anyhow.

Most of us wishing to main Astrologian in progression content would agree the Job needs more help than its been given... We're "on the same side" so to speak, so perhaps we could contribute to the feedback discussion witgout being downright rude and hateful towards each other, considering we all want the same end result: a viable end-game healer.

Tried making a general thread, but of course it got pushed to the back of the line immediately. I made a smaller reply about this idea in an earlier AST thread here on healer forums, but here is a little more thought out.

Hi hi^ ^ I know there have been a million threads about AST and how to change them etc etc, but I had what I think was a good idea. I put this as a reply to a thread in the healer forum, but since Grekumah said to post how we thought changes could be good, I decided hopefully here it has a better chance of getting noticed.

I know most AST, myself included, don't want to be a copy/paste of whm or sch. We want to be our own type of healer. WHM is kind of burst healing, SCH is best for Mitigation. So where can we fit in without stepping on toes? We are supposed to be a hybrid healing job, so let us be, and here's how...

Right now, Diurnal Sect is our go to for most stuff. It is basically a watered down WHM. We have decent heals without all the awesome cooldowns, and we have our cards that are meant to balance the slightly weaker heal kit. What if we flipped that for Nocturnal Sect? Instead of having good heals and minimal card support, what if our cards were as strong as our diurnal heals, and our heals were as minimal as our diurnal cards?

Several times when the question of adding a support role has come up, the answer has been no because that would cause a problem with party/duty finder, and that makes sense to me. We are still healers though, we would queue as such. Then we would analyze the situation and decide when is best to be in heal mode and when is best to be in support mode, much like how whm/sch stance dance with Cleric's. This would of course require the ability to change stances in battle, but to make it so we can't do it all at once, there should be some kind of cool down on that.

How does this make us unique? Instead of burst heals or mitigation heals, we are helping the battle to go faster and or safer. I feel like that is the direction the job was meant to go in the first place. This idea still incorporates the risk v reward feeling that a lot of AST want, and it adds a new level of strategy since we wouldn't be able to flip back and forth.

Now I am no balancer genius, so I won't propose what each card should do in its buffed up state, so I will not even try that. But if anyone has an idea of what would be reasonable to make our Nocturnal Support side work, please lets get some ideas going!

Sorry again for the millionth thread, but I hope you took the time to see it through!

Jojober

I really liked the idea someone else had (sorry, can't remember who it was) about adding a brand new switchable stance where one stance would strengthen the heals (up to the equivalent of WHM/SCH) while keeping the cards as they are now and the other stance would keep the weaker heals like we have now, but really buff up the cards. So, you could choose to be in Diurnal and Nocturnal as they are now, but there would be this additional "heal" stance and another "buff" stance. I know that would make me very happy.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

(A long and intelligent post goes here)

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The problem with the cards, and the current meta as it stands, is that the amount of damage you add to the party's total DPS is almost always less than it would be if:
A) You were a Scholar.
B) You were a White Mage, thus allowing your Scholar to spend more time dealing damage.

Reduce Draw to 15seconds
Shuffle cannot re-draw the same card
Collective Unconscious = added benefits- 'Nocturnal- increases direct heals taken by 15%, Diurnal- increases shields by 20% - Remove the channel but silence the caster. Can click to stop it prematurely

Celestral Opposition = remove the stun and 5 second buff extension, gives everyone the Spread card to full effect.

Time Dilation = reduce cooldown to 1 minute, also doubles target Ast shield strength.


Synergy with the WHM/SCH, weaker heals stay but make up for the buffs they provide as they can be pumped out more frequently. I think this is a nice tradeoff.

In my opinion, the main issue with AST is that it lacks the healing ability and buffs to enable the same amount of DPS that a SCH/WHM combo can bring.

Using savage Faust as an example, I typically pull ~200 DPS on my WHM before switching over to healing while our SCH does between 600-750 (an all time high for him). I don't believe there is any combination of cards that would increase DPS by 800 overall, even if rng is being good to you.

With a SCH/AST combo, the AST has a much harder time solo healing than a WHM, and in most cases, the SCH cannot afford to dps as much. I have yet to try WHM/AST, as my healing partner only has his SCH leveled. I would assume this would allow the AST to directly dps a bit more, but even then I doubt the dps would match up.

I do love my AST and yes, it is capable of healing all content. Unfortunately at the moment, it doesn't bring much to the table when compared to the other healers.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

I'm not a math wiz, but I'm going to try to follow the logic of this sentence and equation. Draw is on a 30 second cooldown and Shuffle on a 60. So you can draw a card 3 times a minute. 2 of the 6 cards are the ones we would want. This means we have 1/3 chance to get something useful on one Draw and 2/3 chances on another draw (1/3 on second Draw, then another 1/3 after you Shuffle the one you don't want). I still can't seem to figure out what the first 1/3rd refers to in that equation? I know it's Friday afternoon and I'm tired so maybe I'm way off base, so Ghishlain can you explain it? I'm curious the thought process.

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I'm no statistician, so anyone with more knowledge in field can correct my logic if I'm mistaken. If I recall my math properly, here's the logic.

The first 1/3 is the chance of you drawing the desired card (Arrow / Balance). This is a 33.3% probability

The second half of the equation is 1/3 * 2/3. This is the math to indicate the probability of drawing Arrow / Balance again if you had the opportunity to re roll your chances. You have a 2/3 chance to require a re-roll, and in that re-roll you have a 1/3 chance to get the card you want - hence the 1/3 * 2/3 = 2/9 or 22.2% chance.

You combine the two probabilities together to ascertain the probability of acquiring an Arrow / Balance card in two attempts, which is 55.5%.

With the assumption that I intend to RR my first card (regardless of the situation), my second draw will always be at the one minute after I potentially used a shuffle two draws ago, so I will always have shuffle up at the same time I'm drawing the card I want to use my RR effect on.

Question: Why does Aspected Helios have a 15y radius and Medica II has a 20y radius?

Is it because Succor has a 15y radius, and since Aspected Helios is the same spell in different stances, they sacrificed the extra 5y because they didn't want the nocturnal shields to have 5y on Succor? Would that really have made such a big deal? 5y is a lot when you're trying to get your HoT on everyone, especially the tank.

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Originally Posted by EchuKayu

Question: Why does Aspected Helios have a 15y radius and Medica II has a 20y radius?

Is it because Succor has a 15y radius, and since Aspected Helios is the same spell in different stances, they sacrificed the extra 5y because they didn't want the nocturnal shields to have 5y on Succor? Would that really have made such a big deal? 5y is a lot when you're trying to get your HoT on everyone, especially the tank.

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I'd imagine it's because of Succor, yes. But the extra 5y would help so much. I've not attempted Savage on AST, but I've done some normal, and it's infuriating trying to use Aspected Helios to give myself some breathing room (with both HoTs on the tank and Time Dilation, say), and not being able to hit everyone.

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Originally Posted by EchuKayu

Question: Why does Aspected Helios have a 15y radius and Medica II has a 20y radius?

Is it because Succor has a 15y radius, and since Aspected Helios is the same spell in different stances, they sacrificed the extra 5y because they didn't want the nocturnal shields to have 5y on Succor? Would that really have made such a big deal? 5y is a lot when you're trying to get your HoT on everyone, especially the tank.

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It may not even be just succor. Medica, indomitability, whispering dawn are ALL 15y too. Perhaps that extra 5y for whm is something that is supposed to be whm-special.

edit- I don't know the radius on assize, and the site I usually check has it listed as 0 which is wrong for sure.

The radius on Expanded RR is what really bugs me since AST's already questionable support game takes a big hit if you can't consistently reach everyone. This is an issue not only in fights with targets that need to be kept apart, but also an issue in general. E.g. Constantly needing to remind ranged DPS not to hide from the rest of the party is not my idea of fun.

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

edit- I don't know the radius on assize, and the site I usually check has it listed as 0 which is wrong for sure.

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It is 15 y

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'm no statistician, so anyone with more knowledge in field can correct my logic if I'm mistaken. If I recall my math properly, here's the logic.

The first 1/3 is the chance of you drawing the desired card (Arrow / Balance). This is a 33.3% probability
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This is a little overcomplicated. All you need to do is calculate the probability of not getting a card you want and inverting that to get the probability of the card you want showing up. Basically, 1 - (2/3)*(2/3) = 0.55555555555555 = 55.5%. It's also quite easy to calculate the chances of drawing the card you want if shuffle can't redraw a card: 1 - (4/6)*(3/6) = 2/3 = 66.6666666666% for getting either arrow or balance and 1 - (5/6) * (4/6) = 44.4444444444444% to draw a specific card using shuffle.

An easy and ingenious way to help Noct stance is that when your in Noct, Synastry becomes a Toggable buff you place on someone. You can lower the potency of it(25% maybe) when it's in the stance but its a permanent buff. This would act as a pseudo fairy while in this stance(heal two targets at one time). If you want to change your synastry target you will have a long cooldown before you can change it again. Would help healing out a ton on this sect and offer a good dynamic for people to choose them in raid.

To help Dinural it's as simple as letting Collective Unconscious stay after you cast it. If you stay put and channel it the potency is higher, when you stop the potency lowers but stays put.

Two easy changes to help the class out a whole lot. Increasing the potency of the heals is a horrible buff(adding a 100 to a heal isn't going to magical save anyone) and buffing the cards is to much. They just need their cooldowns to be better and help them heal.

I honestly feel people just want the class to be over powered. I personally have no problem with it. I enjoy it in every way but , that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by EnvyHope

I honestly feel people just want the class to be over powered. I personally have no problem healing with it.

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Can you at the very least read the discussion instead of going for the generic "you just want to be OP"?
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by EnvyHope

I honestly feel people just want the class to be over powered. I personally have no problem healing with it.

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You could clear most any content in the game outside of Coil and Alex Savage with a monkey playing your healer. That doesn't mean the healer's class is balanced.

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Originally Posted by EnvyHope

I honestly feel people just want the class to be over powered. I personally have no problem healing with it.

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The problem isn't whether or not they can heal we know that they can heal perfectly fine; however, compared to their peers they are the redhead stepchild that nobody wants in their parties because everything they do a whm/sch combo could do it much better. Sure the Astrologian looks great, and I can see why Square Enix decided to make them a hybrid in order to keep the perfect synergy between whm & sch; however, what they ended up doing is putting Astrologians in a awkward spot because if your a hybrid you can never be as good as a specialist automatically preventing you access to many parties unless SE decides to break the job and make it overpowered. Instead I think that the Astrologian should receive a redesign (Make their healing style unique) and make the cards the secondary mechanic of the job, this way they could compete with the specialist without being branded as the useless hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Can you at the very least read the discussion instead of going for the generic "you just want to be OP"?
Thanks.

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I read the conversation if you're upset over my opinon I could care less Thanks (:

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The problem isn't whether or not they can heal we know that they can heal perfectly fine; however, compared to their peers they are the redhead stepchild that nobody wants in their parties because everything they do a whm/sch combo could do it much better. Sure the Astrologian looks great, and I can see why Square Enix decided to make them a hybrid in order to keep the perfect synergy between whm & sch; however, what they ended up doing is putting Astrologians in a awkward spot because if your a hybrid you can never be as good as a specialist automatically preventing you access to many parties unless SE decides to break the job and make it overpowered. Instead I think that the Astrologian should receive a redesign (Make their healing style unique) and make the cards the secondary mechanic of the job, this way they could compete with the specialist without being branded as the useless hybrid.

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I understand what you're saying (:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'm no statistician, so anyone with more knowledge in field can correct my logic if I'm mistaken. If I recall my math properly, here's the logic.


The first 1/3 is the chance of you drawing the desired card (Arrow / Balance). This is a 33.3% probability

The second half of the equation is 1/3 * 2/3. This is the math to indicate the probability of drawing Arrow / Balance again if you had the opportunity to re roll your chances. You have a 2/3 chance to require a re-roll, and in that re-roll you have a 1/3 chance to get the card you want - hence the 1/3 * 2/3 = 2/9 or 22.2% chance.

You combine the two probabilities together to ascertain the probability of acquiring an Arrow / Balance card in two attempts, which is 55.5%.

With the assumption that I intend to RR my first card (regardless of the situation), my second draw will always be at the one minute after I potentially used a shuffle two draws ago, so I will always have shuffle up at the same time I'm drawing the card I want to use my RR effect on.

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Thank you for the explanation!

Also, where did my post go?

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

[...]Comments regarding how astrologians feel when healing throughout the various areas of content is very useful, so please continue to send us specific requests on each action's effect when battling through the different instances.

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When playing Astrologian it feels like it is very weak. Healing is much lower that WHM and even SCH. I have 4 abilities on my hotbar for managing cards, but card buffs are weak and unpredictable. Whilst I'm playing Shuffle roulette to get The Balance, the tank is going into critical HP and my co-healer has to work double hard to keep up - that's a lost DPS opportunity. Why card buffs aren't AoE by default? Once you do your math, you realise single target Bole 1/6 of a time (random chance) for 15 seconds is pointless and doesn't increase overall raid DPS, especially when burst is called for. Why can't we choose what buff to use every time? And don't give me that 'it's written in the stars' nonsense. I've played COR in FFXI, so I know card buffing, even with random aspect, can be done right. AND healing AND doing damage on top of that on the same job.

When this Astrologian in random dungeon twiddles his thumbs wondering who to give this Ewer, my SCH is already dropping Shadow Flare->Bio->Bio II->Miasma II->BANE->Aero>Aero>Aero WHILST my Roused Selene covers the healing, drops 3% Speed on entire party and AoE Erases in an instant. Should I list WHM capabilities too?

Oh, and Celestial Opposition, did I mention Cellestial Opposition? Well, I'm sure someone already has.

Every time I see Astrologian in the party I think to myself "Damn, that's a wasted WHM party spot :("

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Originally Posted by Zirael_Foxfire

Oh, and Celestial Opposition, did I mention Cellestial Opposition? Well, I'm sure someone already has.

Every time I see Astrologian in the party I think to myself "Damn, that's a wasted WHM party spot :("

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The weird thing about CO is that, during the last live letter, Yoshida said it was getting buffed/redesigned, but nothing when the patch came out. Hopefully we can still look forward to it and it wasn't scrapped or pushed back until 3.1.

I don't have AST at 60 so I don't have firsthand experience, but I have no idea what the point of CO is supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by EnvyHope

I honestly feel people just want the class to be over powered. I personally have no problem with it. I enjoy it in every way but , that's just my opinion.

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You havent read the thread then. Its about AST lacking the tools and healing through-put to be able to replace either WHM or SCH in progression raiding and true end game. Many of us here also dont have an issue "healing" with it. Yet we understand its weak compared to the other 2 healers, thus unable to legitimately take the raid slot of a WHM or SCH. People wanting the weakest class in the game to be buffed is not wanting it to be overpowered. So tell, since you have no issues with it, how has your foray gone into alexander savage as an AST then? How much dps have you managed to push out with it? What are your HPS figures in a raid compared to WHM in diurnal and SCH in nocturnal?

I have played AST and SCH in Alexander (Savage) and posted about it here: Astro "Buffs"
My conclusion is basically: Taking an Astrologian instead of a Scholar is like taking a Lancer instead of a Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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I confess I got a little lost in your argument with RichardButte. However, I feel like a 1.6% dps increase at the very least is a decent enough compensation for the current weaknesses of AST. Remember that using AST basically means that your co-healer cannot dps optimally (and you cannot dps as well because mana issues and weak healing) and this is a huge problem. The numbers you showed would still not be enough to replace a SCH's missing dps. Double AST isn't possible because you would lack healing power, the party would just die.
Also

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Expand Balance / Arrow = 10-15% increase in raid DPS 55% of the time = 5.6% to 8.3% increase to total raid DPS

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should be divided by 2 (the effectiveness of cards is halved when expanding). It would still trivialize very short (30 seconds or less) dps checks, yes, but in the long run it should be ok.
I believe that a more interesting case to analyze is the current contribution of AST to the raid dps. Again, assuming you will RR the first card and use shuffle on the 2nd draw, the probability of having an expanded arrow/balance should be 1/3*(1/3+1/3)=22.2% (actually a little higher because of spread, but let's keep things easy). The probability of having extended/enhanced arrow/balance are the same. Assuming balance=arrow for dps increase (I'm not very comfortable with this assumption, but still...), this basically means that this will provide an expected raid dps increase of 22.2%*5%/3+22.2%*15%/(6*2)+22.2%*10%/(6*2)=0.37%+0.28%+0.19%=0.85%.
I assumed that CO is used on the expanded version, time dilation on the enhanced version and some other assumptions about the contribution of the "best" dps player. Also I'm assuming constant dps (no "burn phases"). Let's multiply this by 4 (i.e. let's assume arrow/balance are 40%). We get 3.4% expected (avg) dps increase (similar to what you did). This is just to say that the idea of doubling or even tripling the effectiveness of cards is still not enough. Even more, an avg 5% dps increase (that is what you computed as the avg for a 60% arrow/balance and I think you're very close) is hardly better than a SCH that can full dps (mind you, the SCH is doing 5% of the raid dps in the parse you posted, and SCH+WHM is 7%) because it's an expected (uncertain) value, which is always "worse" than the same certain value unless the party really loves risk. Let me make this extreme example: 60% balance, expanded (30% raid dps increase) for 20 seconds every minute (CO on 60secs cooldown) and you draw perfect cards=10% total raid dps increase in the best case scenario. If healers can't dps because healing is harder with AST, this isn't much better than having WHM/SCH and healers can dps: according to this parse, it means 8130 raid dps with AST's buffs versus 8020 raid dps with SCH/WHM. Doesn't look too OP, right? As Zholi put it

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Their (cards') power needs to be boosted so much that most people's initial reaction will be that the developers have gone overboard.

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So...yeah I can't see an easy solution. Statistically speaking, a 50% effect of cards should be about right to make it on par with SCH/WHM if (big if) we believe that healers cannot dps when there's an AST in the party. However, this would make all short dps checks really easy to handle. But there's more: in a very lucky try (AST drawing very good cards) a party could meet dps checks too soon and the more hardcore parties might be able to clear the content in a few days, depending on their luck. This is why I think AST should be revamped. As you said, if they simply perform some fine tuning on the current skills I believe (hopefully I'm wrong) that AST will never be a viabe healer for raid progression...a pity. On the other hand, if they make AST statistically on par with the other healers, there will always be a chance that a lucky party will clear the content too soon, making AST mandatory for raiders aiming to world and server first clears.
Right now however cards are not enough even to compensate for AST's weaker dps.

You can get past the character limit by editing your post.

...it's dumb design that discourages well written posts and increases frustration.