Your thoughts on the direction of this game?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Eco-Warrior, Conquest, BCNM, NMs, HNMs, Quests and Missions (people say this is content in XIV so it counts for XI as well.) Expeditionary force (early form of campaign/besieged/reive), treasure hunting (open world required gaining keys.) So comparatively, it's basically the same as XIV on Launch - ARR however had the benefit of borrowing 1.0-1.23 content for its launch content while throwing in a few new things...but a lot fo XIV's content is one time throwaway content, to put it into perspective:

If BCNMs were in XIV ARR, you'd do each one once then never touch them ever again for the rest of the game unless SE forces you into them. That's taking into consideration none of the updates just before zilart as well.

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Thank you. More constructively: Yes. S-E absolutely needs to stop making content throwaway. They have no idea how to design their gear curve in ARR and it's honestly killed my interest in a lot of the endgame.

So from the answers I have seen, it looks like both games are on the same boat in terms of how much content available from launch. It isn't fair to say that XI has so much more content when it has 12 years on ARR. You can compare FFXIV's 12 year period with FFXI's sure, but we haven't gotten 11 years into the future yet. Listing areas doesn't really count unless there was actual content to do in there besides leveling or at most killing mobs to get a item for a certain quest. XIV also has multiple jobs and crafts to level on one character.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Listing areas doesn't really count unless there was actual content to do in there besides leveling or at most killing mobs to get a item for a certain quest. XIV also has multiple jobs and crafts to level on one character.

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So you could say Primals in XIV don't count, since that is just a zone you go in to kill a monster to get an item.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So you could say Primals in XIV don't count, since that is just a zone you go in to kill a monster to get an item.

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Going into a area to get an item for a quest in XI is the same as going to an area to get an item for a quest in XIV. Questing itself is content that both share. You can just as easily list areas in XIV and say that is content (which it is actually). Also I would compare Trials to BCNM's. Instanced content for one particular battle. So both are counted as questing content, the one you like more is up to you.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Going into a area to get an item for a quest in XI is the same as going to an area to get an item for a quest in XIV. Questing itself is content that both share. You can just as easily list areas in XIV and say that is content (which it is actually). Also I would compare Trials to BCNM's. Instanced content for one particular battle. So both are counted as questing content, the one you like more is up to you.

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You had variety and different ways to tackle a fight in XI, in XIV you rarely have this variety.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Going into a area to get an item for a quest in XI is the same as going to an area to get an item for a quest in XIV. Questing itself is content that both share. You can just as easily list areas in XIV and say that is content (which it is actually). Also I would compare Trials to BCNM's. Instanced content for one particular battle. So both are counted as questing content, the one you like more is up to you.

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Random enemies in those zones in XI could drop gear and spells, some spells that was the only way to get those spells, killing trash mobs in certain zones, or buying them from people that got them that way. So if you don't want to count killing random enemies in zones as content, well then you can call it spell or gear hunting, and I guess it becomes content in your eyes.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

, how long did people wear the leaping boots?

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I wore those boots at 75 on my thief until I got the salvage ones because Simmy was mean to me.

All of the things you mentioned and what everyone else has mentioned about XI are what I terribly miss. I loved that game. Leveling your character took work. Getting good gear took effort (or gil, but gil took effort too). And before ppl say "game still running, go back," it no longer is that game either.

But the one big problem it had and probably why it changed was that it was not new-player friendly. FFXIV can be picked up by anyone at any time and that person could easily be caught up around a month, more or less depending on time and play style.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

But the one big problem it had and probably why it changed was that it was not new-player friendly. FFXIV can be picked up by anyone at any time and that person could easily be caught up around a month, more or less depending on time and play style.

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That's the thing, the ones that figure out how to build a game that can hold onto players like XI and EQ did, while still being new player friendly will be the game to beat. Part of it is the community, but getting players to halt everything they are doing to spend weeks or even months catching new players up to them is asking quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

So from the answers I have seen, it looks like both games are on the same boat in terms of how much content available from launch. It isn't fair to say that XI has so much more content when it has 12 years on ARR. You can compare FFXIV's 12 year period with FFXI's sure, but we haven't gotten 11 years into the future yet. Listing areas doesn't really count unless there was actual content to do in there besides leveling or at most killing mobs to get a item for a certain quest. XIV also has multiple jobs and crafts to level on one character.

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You really can't compare the two games. Leveling in FFXIV is stupid easy, even crafts. I had one craft at 50 when 2.0 launched. It took me two months of casually working on crafting to get the rest to 50. FFXIV takes minimal effort, including relics.

But I guess you could say that the amount of content is about the same. It just feels like less content because everything is instant.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

We would have died before 2.1 if this was true.

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Rapidly inflating item and character levels created tremendous strains on all forms of content, from leveling to raids. By the time Cataclysm was released, an attempted revamp of the old areas was completely wasted because people easily out leveled the areas before completing all the quests, so much of the content was never seen by most players. Also, all old dungeons and raids were rendered obsolete. There was literally no reason to do them. The vanity system was an attempted solution to rekindle interest in older content, which really didn't do much at all to accomplish that. You can already see it happening here. Labyrinth of ancients is becoming abandoned. The first coil will be history once 2.4 is released. By expansion all of this early content will be history if he continues to do it the World of Warcraft way. And yes, the game is losing subs. Some vertical progression is okay. Rapid upwards vertical progression is like taking shortcuts to build a skyscraper... it all comes crashing down in the end.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

You really can't compare the two games. Leveling in FFXIV is stupid easy, even crafts. I had one craft at 50 when 2.0 launched. It took me two months of casually working on crafting to get the rest to 50. FFXIV takes minimal effort, including relics.

But I guess you could say that the amount of content is about the same. It just feels like less content because everything is instant.

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And XI's content is multi purpose an wasn't easily thrown away. The only time this ever happens is if they redo the content in a later version (e.g Monstrosity over Pankraton.)

Also, XI had it's first expansion by now...there's that too.

Whether there was more content or less... in FFXI or EQ or whatever... I have never seen a game with so much obsolete content this early... so regardless of what they develop, the world is not growing. They keep deprecating content as fast as they make it.

In other games we would have a game with a year worth of growth with a much larger world by now- in this game we have the same amount of relevant content and a bunch of withered content that is rotting.... in the first year.

That not only keeps the relevant amount of content small - but it kills motivation for doing it, when you know it will be obsolete soon.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Also, all old dungeons and raids were rendered obsolete. There was literally no reason to do them.

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Because you can not build up!
Normally you can get lets say Level 1 in lower content, 2 Level 1 you can merge to a Level 2, 2 Level 2 merg to a Level 3 and so on...
That way overpowering lower content means faster clearing which means farming more of the Level 1 instead of slower farming Level 2...

Do you see any buildup in this game? All we have is RNG everywhere!

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

You choose not to see it. It's kind of funny how when I ran Hullbreaker Isle in roulettes so many say: "so many memories of WoW flooding back" - So as much as you want to deny it..the guy behind this game made it perfectly clear. It's like trying to deny Everquest 2 is a sequel to Everquest..it's pretty apparent despite any differences.

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There is a difference between denial and actual observation, it's simply not there. YOU can deny that all you like, What's perfectly "clear" is that wow was an inspiration, he didn't say we want to make this exactly like wow" learn the difference, it's not denial or "choose" not to see, it's what common sense between the knowledge of the 2 games tells you. It's not there. regardless of how bad you want it to be.

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The way the direction is going right now, it isn't and will not be a better game.

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But since the game is pretty successful and shows no signs of declining, doesn't mean it's not a better game.

When 10,000 people test a new food dish and 2,000 is saying its bad and not good while the other 8,000 are saying it's delicious, and it's fine as is, that means that majority will be fine with it. while the 2000 are simply ignored. That is just the way it is.

We're all entitled to our own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

There is a difference between denial and actual observation, it's simply not there. YOU can deny that all you like, What's perfectly "clear" is that wow was an inspiration, he didn't say we want to make this exactly like wow"

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He did actually - He said as clear as day he wanted to bring a WoW like experience to the Japanese gaming base as none of their MMOs are like it, so they haven't really played MMOs of that style as WoW has no official version in Japan. The guy reiterates that point pretty much everytime, if it was simply 'inspired' they would have done something different rather than stick to all of the same designs..don't you think?

Perfect Example: Tera, it's clearly "the same ole same ole" post WoW era, but they at least tried something different with their battle system for example.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

He did actually - He said as clear as day he wanted to bring a WoW like experience to the Japanese gaming base as none of their MMOs are like it, so they haven't really played MMOs of that style as WoW has no official version in Japan. The guy reiterates that point pretty much everytime, if it was simply 'inspired' they would have done something different rather than stick to all of the same designs..don't you think?

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A "wow like experience" where is exactly does that mean an exact clone? I mean by that logic almost every other MMO and most RPGS are using the same design, If you like WoW, that is fine, but no, unless you can show me where he said "we want this to be an exact clone of wow" Which it is not, But we've already been through this, you are free to believe whatever you like.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

A "wow like experience" where is exactly does that mean an exact clone? I mean by that logic almost every other MMO and most RPGS are using the same design, If you like WoW, that is fine, but no, unless you can show me where he said "we want this to be an exact clone of wow" Which it is not, But we've already been through this, you are free to believe whatever you like.

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I mean... we can mince words about it... but when you want your product experience to be similar to another product- unless you are trying to get sued- you don't come out and say clone, even though you mean - .... artistic rendition (copy).

FFXIV Could be a re-skinned WoW... except that WoW has more variety in content (raids, etc.)

In fact... I wonder what would be lost if WoW was entirely reskinned to be FF.... would players that love FFXIV have problems with that game... or would they love it just as much or more than they love XIV?

I wonder- since the design is so similar, how much of the appreciation for XIV and disdain for WoW is truly game based and how much is brand based?

My main issue is that, disregarding dungeon content, there are way too many brainless activities you have to go through in order to get that next piece of gear or get to that next piece of content. Hunts, the relic weapon quests (post Zenith), treasure hunts, beastman dailies, chocobo raising, vistas (and I'm sure there are more things that I can't think of at the moment) while all great ideas with potential, require no skill whatsoever, but rely only on time available, gil available and luck. I realise that sometimes they have to add these type of "neccessary evils", but it shouldn't be the main focus.

The sad thing is it was the Tanaka left over stuff that made me tell my friends "hey, this game actually looks a bit different. It might turn into something memorable." The game would have been safe if Yoshida stopped the ilvl increase where it is right now, but he's already said he isn't going to experiment with horizontal progression until expansion. So all of us who have played 10+ years of World of Warcraft know we're in for something terrible. Its not a matter of if anymore.

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Originally Posted by Mug

My main issue is that, disregarding dungeon content, there are way too many brainless activities you have to go through in order to get that next piece of gear or get to that next piece of content. Hunts, the relic weapon quests (post Zenith), treasure hunts, beastman dailies, chocobo raising, vistas (and I'm sure there are more things that I can't think of at the moment) while all great ideas with potential, require no skill whatsoever, but rely only on time available, gil available and luck. I realise that sometimes they have to add these type of "neccessary evils", but it shouldn't be the main focus.

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Wait, you never have to do treasure hunts, beastman dailies, chocobo raising or vistas for any reason.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Wait, you never have to do treasure hunts, beastman dailies, chocobo raising or vistas for any reason.

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He didn't say you have to. He's saying the options given aren't that great (to him).

It kind of seems like SE doesn't really know what they are doing. Originally, they basically handed out max ilvl gear to everyone who had enough common sense to run simplistic dungeons a few times a week. They decided players shouldn't be handed raid equivalent gear without raiding and came up with the sands and oils. Now, 2.3 comes out and we're back to having max ilvl gear handed out to everyone because hunts have introduced sands and oils to everyone willing to waste hours tagging mobs.

I feel like I'm always waiting for this game to become something it never will.

I remember when SE tried wild things, but it cost them a lot of money with a huge amount of failed games. FFXIV: ARR is their saving grace until they can wise up and bring revenue back to the company. Then they'll go back to being frivolous with their money in whatever projects they do.

I personally don't mind gear being obsolete every 6 months because there is no reason to have it last more than that. It does feel slightly hollow though, as there isn't anything you can do with main stats that make sense outside of the norm. I've didn't play WoW or XI because they didn't look interesting when they came out, or while they were around so I can't compare my experiences to them. However, the current game looks good and I hope they do some QoL changes and bring in some wild mechanics (while allowing us to completely overgear and faceroll content like in single player FF).

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Originally Posted by Fated

It kind of seems like SE doesn't really know what they are doing. Originally, they basically handed out max ilvl gear to everyone who had enough common sense to run simplistic dungeons a few times a week. They decided players shouldn't be handed raid equivalent gear without raiding and came up with the sands and oils. Now, 2.3 comes out and we're back to having max ilvl gear handed out to everyone because hunts have introduced sands and oils to everyone willing to waste hours tagging mobs.

I feel like I'm always waiting for this game to become something it never will.

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And now 2.4 will come and they'll handle even better gears to everyone for free!

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

And now 2.4 will come and they'll handle even better gears to everyone for free!

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But if it's to hard to get, everyone will complain. But.....if it's to easy to get, everyone will complain that gear is being handed to them.. HOW DO YOU WIN.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

But if it's to hard to get, everyone will complain. But.....if it's to easy to get, everyone will complain that gear is being handed to them.. HOW DO YOU WIN.

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Its simple, make the gear hard to get. Screw the people that want gear handed to them. Boo hoo you have to work to get the gear.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

Its simple, make the gear hard to get. Screw the people that want gear handed to them. Boo hoo you have to work to get the gear.

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Sadly, this is not the direction the game is handled. It's a casual game. Gears every 6 months handled to you by doing easy dungeons, dungeons not-too hard so people who just jumped back into the game can do them and gear themselves quickly. Coil to have the hardcore games do something.

Rinse and repeat every 6 months. Everyone can jump into the game at any time and be max level (or near max) in a couple of weeks.

FFXIV is first and foremost a theme park.

This game is for casuals. You're gonna eventually deal with it or leave.

I quit playing for several months right after 2.2 come back thinking "oh man I'm gonna be so far behind."

I'm not obviously. I can understand many of you don't like this model but there's a reason they did it. It's profitable.

If they made FFXI-2 in todays current market, it would more than likely tank.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

Its simple, make the gear hard to get. Screw the people that want gear handed to them. Boo hoo you have to work to get the gear.

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Or, I don't know... have raid gear... with raid stats... and quested gear (not just grind tokens) with a different look and different effects for small grouping... so that casuals have something to work toward.

That's how most games seem to keep folks happy.different methods of progression. Here they tried, but the most they could get creative with was farmville token farming.

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Originally Posted by PinkDeadly

If they made FFXI-2 in todays current market, it would more than likely tank.

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Highly doubt that.

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Originally Posted by PinkDeadly

This game is for casuals. You're gonna eventually deal with it or leave. I quit playing for several months right after 2.2 come back thinking "oh man I'm gonna be so far behind."

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An mmo isn't something you just play for several months quit return etc, if you want something like that go play a single player rpg.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

Highly doubt that.

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Agree to disagree. The cost of maintaining a modern MMO would not be profitable in regards to the subscriber base.

Once again, I get it. But the reason WoW has performed so well was due to it's casual fanbase. People who don't even play video games regularly were logging on every day. There reasons for doing so were always different, but for the most part the game appealed to a very broad audience.

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Originally Posted by PinkDeadly

I quit playing for several months right after 2.2 come back thinking "oh man I'm gonna be so far behind."

I'm not obviously. I can understand many of you don't like this model but there's a reason they did it. It's profitable.

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I took a long break from FFXI. Yet I wasn't left way behind. The gear I had farmed was still good, areas I knew where still relevant. Only thing was that I was a bit rusty.

I am going to have to side with PinkDeadly, some of you need to realize that they had FFXI-2 it was called FF XIV 1.23, etc....it tanked.

Times change man, you gotta change with them. Until you run a company that needs millions of dollars to sustain itself your ideas of what makes a game are forever lost to the guaranteed sale.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I am going to have to side with PinkDeadly, some of you need to realize that they had FFXI-2 it was called FF XIV 1.23, etc....it tanked.

Times change man, you gotta change with them. Until you run a company that needs millions of dollars to sustain itself your ideas of what makes a game are forever lost to the guaranteed sale.

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You do know that the plan they had with FFXIV was, "not FFXI", right?

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Originally Posted by Barimu

An mmo isn't something you just play for several months quit return etc, if you want something like that go play a single player rpg.

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No, this is what you want an MMO to be, not what it is.

If you have problems with the ease with which people can obtain better gear it speaks more to your devotion to want to have a larger gap between hardcore players and casuals.

Once again, I get it, but that model no longer sells subscriptions like it did when MMO's were more popular.

There is a reason this game is on two consoles as well as PC. There is a reason each update includes new emotes and relatively easy to clear content. There is a reason that "gear is given out like candy" as you so elequently put it. That reason should be fairly obvious to anybody looking at this like a business person instead of a hardcore gamer.

It's called accesability, and Yoshi has done very well in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

You do know that the plan they had with FFXIV was, "not FFXI", right?

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you do know my point sailed over your head really really high.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

some of you need to realize that they had FFXI-2 it was called FF XIV 1.23, etc....it tanked.

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Stop. I'm gonna stop you where you're wrong. 1.23 was pretty much near perfect in the 1.0 complainers eyes, if they went the path of 1.23 then "1.232.0" would've been a success


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Originally Posted by PinkDeadly

Games usually don't get more hardcore friendly. Generally the opposite is true.

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This game is already so simple that my dog can play it. Honestly, if they make this game any easier or simpler they're gonna make me feel like im 5.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I am going to have to side with PinkDeadly, some of you need to realize that they had FFXI-2 it was called FF XIV 1.23, etc....it tanked..

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Wait what? 1.23 took place in Vana'diel? It had 8 years worth of content and around 20 jobs to choose from? How did I not know about this?

To be clear, I'm not saying that wanting such content is wrong or stupid. Just that if that's what you want this game to be, I'd reconsider your sub.

Games usually don't get more hardcore friendly. Generally the opposite is true.