The death of savage raiding and SE's lack of action

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Originally Posted by Sensui

Have to assume, since they're likely not raiding with all the healers in all the statics out there, it's the cumulative experience with and impression gained thus far from the general community of healers that partake in raid via the Party Finder.

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Except the statement is wrong.

PF Healers don't have issues with heal checks, they have issues with mitigation checks disguised as heal checks.

Harrowing Hell was foremost a mitigation check. The reason why Tank LB was used on HH was because trying to get both tanks and all four DPS to press their mitigation tools, and god forbid spread them out, between taking bites of their elmer's gluesticks was too much to ask of PF tanks and dps.

When the boss two-taps the tank and annihilates the party because three people were also standing in front of the tanks as well, it wasn't the mitigation-less tanks and dps who manned up to their mistakes... they blamed the healer for not having AoE Benediction on a 0 second GCD.

PF Healers quit because of trash players blaming them, or found a static to end their suffering.

No idea where the idea that PF Healers quit because of an increased DPS requirement. That was pulled right out of their rectum. It's quite the opposite, Healers are quitting because of a lack of interesting DPS rotation.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Healers in PF dropped off dramatically in Asphodelos, and Anabaseios, two tiers that both encompassed alot more AoEs + DoTs and successive high damage mechanic overlap, both things the forums consistently asks for to incorporate more Healing opportunity or stress on the Healer role. Every tier that operates like this, more often has low clear rates or the overall perception of the raids is poor. Every single one since at least SHB. If the goal is to increase healer roles in PF, this is clearly not the direction to go.

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AoEs + DoTs were mitigation checks, not heal checks. If a pf group (tanks and dps) treated those mechanics like a heal check (not using their mitigations) and had healers adjust, they were the biggest issue with PF.

Proper mitigation and those mechanics were a non-factor.

Lets stop spreading the idea that this game has heal checks when 99% of them are realistically mitigation checks first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

No we aren't there yet. Responsibilities for Healers have not changed.

The current situation of Healers in the current game design is as follows:

- The PF Healers already have shown with previous tiers they don't like more heal checks on the role or more DPS requirements on the role. Increasing either of these causes the Healer population to decrease more than usual.

(...)

1) Remove mitigation from Healers. If I had to choose between (Healing, DPS or Mitigation) with the games current design (an important point here) I would hands down choose mitigation. It makes the most sense. Why? Well with the game's current design, you have to wait for more healing to show up then not and in between that we have a 1-2 button DPS string. Not exactly great but at least we have that. There is no encounter they will or can design where if you remove those 2 DPS buttons we have (giving Healers all the Healing and MIT from everyone now) that will be a good fight. It would be a stress test bonanza that most PF Healers will falter on because such an encounter would have to include so much damage going out that warrants Healers owning all healing and all mitigation. Just take a second to imagine the Pandemonium fight but with more damage going out. Perhaps you are capable, bravo. Average PF Healer is definitely not.

Mitigation off the role is actually a newer concept too. In coil days and a bit in HW, Healers did not have as much mitigation tools as exist now. And surprise surprise what else existed then? DPS stance dancing for Healers. Now I won't argue we should return to stance dancing BUT we can have some sort of a rotation added to DPS. Again, only AFTER we remove responsibilities from the role first. Remove MIT beyond say that one shield (like succor,adlo) and then SLOWLY add back a DPS button or 2 and see how PF responds. Things like a healing/DPS rotation become possible at that point.

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Is this some Abyssos revisionism? Are you working for SE, to take all the wrong lessons from this? What primarily happened in Abyssos is that a lot of the mitigation checks were not on the healers hands, especially in the early weeks. So if dumbass tanks/dps didn't mit the bleed or hard hitting raidwides and bleed tbs, they'd melt no matter what you pressed as a healer. I still remember week 1 Hephaistos and people not mitigating the stupid jumps on dog 1 with Feint+Rep+Addle and healers/casters would freaking explode and there was nothing I could do. I tried single targetting Adlo, but I just didn't have time. And ofc, then everyone dogpiles on the healer. Do you know how crap that feels? I press 1 very hard, then oops, my tanks and melee are asleep on the wheel, half the party dies, "can you heal?!?!" in chat and I leave and join another pf as BLM cause I'm not dealing with that garbage.

Your solution literally exacerbates this problem- as has been mentioned, healing in this game is 80% mits. Have you ever seen logs and compared the healing output of a shield healer VS a pure healer? Shield always has like 30/40% more healing done in competent parties because the log accounts for the mitigation as healing. If a raidwide hits for 120k with a 40k tick bleed, then no amount of healing is gonna save you. It makes perfect sense that the tools to deal with that should primarily be in the hands of the people who are playing a job that should counteract these heavy raidwide hits. Do you really wanna put part of that responsibility in the hands of the busiest role, dps? Dps tunnel vision exists for a reason, it's a more complicated role which is fighting its own minigame.

And your entire argument based on "the mythological being of incompetence, the pf healer" is just absurd, sorry. Should we bring back aggro dumps for the cases where, when a tank dies, the other forgets to provoke? Should we buff tank/healer dps in case the dps is incompetent and you consistently hit enrage? If a healer joins a pf party and sucks then you die, like you will if a tank faces a tb towards the party, or if the dps is very low. Why must we cater healer design to an hypothetical lowest common denominator?

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Except the statement is wrong.

PF Healers don't have issues with heal checks, they have issues with mitigation checks disguised as heal checks.

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This is largely gibberish as PF perceives any high hitting attack as a "heal check". This is why when the parties are faltering DESPITE any present mitigation, healers are blamed. We could define something more like doom mechanics as heal checks but again that's not only what PF perceives as healer responsibility.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Harrowing Hell was foremost a mitigation check. The reason why Tank LB was used on HH was because trying to get both tanks and all four DPS to press their mitigation tools, and god forbid spread them out, between taking bites of their elmer's gluesticks was too much to ask of PF tanks and dps.

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In a normal PF party comp, you are not surviving Harrowing Hell or Cross Slash without healing. That's a hard fact. I'll disagree that tank LB is used for anything else besides the path of least resistance to clear. PF first and foremost, prioritizes clearability and odds to that in everything from LB usage to overall strategy handling mechs. Nothing else generally matters. Hell, I'd be surprised if PF Healers even expect mitigation from anyone on average for specific hits because if you are a PF healer then on average you know something is going to be missing / overlapped etc.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

When the boss two-taps the tank and annihilates the party because three people were also standing in front of the tanks as well, it wasn't the mitigation-less tanks and dps who manned up to their mistakes... they blamed the healer for not having AoE Benediction on a 0 second GCD.

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This is a real extreme example that rarely happens in PF. If it's obvious someone died to being in the wrong place, no one is sitting there blaming healers for their death on average.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

PF Healers quit because of trash players blaming them, or found a static to end their suffering.

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To your first point, this is why you need to shift responsibility AWAY from healer role. That's exactly my point so you change the perception of others. As for the second point, most players engage with PF for raiding so take of that what you will.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

No idea where the idea that PF Healers quit because of an increased DPS requirement. That was pulled right out of their rectum. It's quite the opposite, Healers are quitting because of a lack of interesting DPS rotation.

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I said Healers do not want more responsibility. If that comes in the form of more DPS with the current setup, MORE PF Healers will leave the role. This is proven in every single tier that adds even a modicum of challenge with current healers.

Healers already have the following and they have to play better than every other role when it comes to mechanics specifically as a healer death is far more compromising than DPS or Tank deaths.

-Mitigation
-Healing
-DPS
-Mechanics

With the current setup, if you force much more DPS buttons, you will create an issue where people eventually are like "hey I already have to do all of this and now I have to do a more complex DPS rotation as well?? Forget it, I'll just DPS or Tank." I imagine SE has data that showcased the exact thing occurring to when they reduced DPS kits from HW -> SB -> SHB. If the correlation of Healer having more DPS options on average also lead to more people playing Healer outright, I'd imagine Healers would look very different gameplay wise right now. I think SE reducing DPS buttons off the role is a proof of concept and testament to likely the feedback metrics they are seeing on their end. However, this is also because at current encounter and class design, Healer has to do all of the above.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

AoEs + DoTs were mitigation checks, not heal checks. If a pf group (tanks and dps) treated those mechanics like a heal check (not using their mitigations) and had healers adjust, they were the biggest issue with PF.

Proper mitigation and those mechanics were a non-factor.

Lets stop spreading the idea that this game has heal checks when 99% of them are realistically mitigation checks first and foremost.

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Actually, I'm not spreading around anything, just saying how PF see's these mechanics as healer responsibility.

Also I found this ironic, but Link
You don't even heal in PF raids. Not a single log in three expansions.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Well then, how do we reduce responsibility? Do we take away damage, therefore making it more tedious for solo and msq quests while making deep dungeons harder, if not impossible? Do we reduce the stress of mp, which they've done heavily since Shb? Do we reduce mitigations that the healers have and then just give everyone else a super mit that they need would need to press for harder hitting stuff?

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Of these options, if we are considering all levels of gameplay (MSQ, Solo Quests, PF Savage, Hunts etc), then for us to maintain job identity, while also fixing perception of the role etc

I personally would say, with current design, remove mitigation responsibility from Healers, giving that to DPS and Tanks and reduce some of the healing potential on tank (but not all of it). It does not need to be "super mit". Content like Deep Dungeons are kinda removed from class balance. Case in point, people who do deep dungeons on generally ALL roles, tend to avoid fighting monsters anyway especially on higher floors if possible. Even then, you can design content around what's missing, ala Bozja.

For other things like solo duties, you can simply add a duty option for healing/ shielding as needed (if) it's even needed. Most MSQ scripted fights already incorporate some sort of healing (usually passive) so that all classes can do the content with just not getting hit with things you shouldn't.

Overall, what the game should be balanced around the most is PF Savage as that is the most engaging content in the game that actually utilizes all class tools, but especially Healer. It is where most of the Healers have complaints centered around, and also where Healer role showcases the most issues.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Is this some Abyssos revisionism? Are you working for SE, to take all the wrong lessons from this? What primarily happened in Abyssos is that a lot of the mitigation checks were not on the healers hands, especially in the early weeks. So if dumbass tanks/dps didn't mit the bleed or hard hitting raidwides and bleed tbs, they'd melt no matter what you pressed as a healer. I still remember week 1 Hephaistos and people not mitigating the stupid jumps on dog 1 with Feint+Rep+Addle and healers/casters would freaking explode and there was nothing I could do. I tried single targetting Adlo, but I just didn't have time. And ofc, then everyone dogpiles on the healer. Do you know how crap that feels? I press 1 very hard, then oops, my tanks and melee are asleep on the wheel, half the party dies, "can you heal?!?!" in chat and I leave and join another pf as BLM cause I'm not dealing with that garbage.

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Skill issue from you probably. Usually can just do Critlospread and maybe a sacred soil and that was fine Week 1. For SGE, you have Panhaima, + party shield and Pnuema which is enough. Granted I also actually GCD heal as needed. 9/10 times I'd consider myself lucky to have even Reprisal.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Your solution literally exacerbates this problem- as has been mentioned, healing in this game is 80% mits. Have you ever seen logs and compared the healing output of a shield healer VS a pure healer? Shield always has like 30/40% more healing done in competent parties because the log accounts for the mitigation as healing. If a raidwide hits for 120k with a 40k tick bleed, then no amount of healing is gonna save you. It makes perfect sense that the tools to deal with that should primarily be in the hands of the people who are playing a job that should counteract these heavy raidwide hits. Do you really wanna put part of that responsibility in the hands of the busiest role, dps? Dps tunnel vision exists for a reason, it's a more complicated role which is fighting its own minigame.

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I actually don't specifically disagree with your rational here just to be clear. It would make sense, in theory, for Healers to be where the central Heal and mitigation responsibility comes from. However for current, with heavy emphasis on the current, game encounter and overall job design, it doesn't work. Please elaborate on the encounter that would have to exist that warrants Healers to be the all healing / all mitigation beast you desire while also does not create a situation where LESS people show up to heal on PF.

..I'll wait, but it just doesn't exist. You would literally have to design a fight that has nonstop healer and mitigation checks and that is exactly the amount of stress people do not show up for on PF. We have literal examples of this already with EW raids. I'm not sure why anyone believes doing more of the same is the solution to the PF Healer shortage.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Why must we cater healer design to an hypothetical lowest common denominator?

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If we are talking about the lowest common denominator, I would consider that Expert dungeons, and I am indeed not saying we should balance Healers around Expert dungeon difficulty.
I am however saying, we should balance around how the average pf healer in savage operates. We should balance all job balance (specifically party heal/mit utility) around this. Because it is a necessary focus to preserve the raiding community as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Of these options, if we are considering all levels of gameplay (MSQ, Solo Quests, PF Savage, Hunts etc), then for us to maintain job identity, while also fixing perception of the role etc

I personally would say, with current design, remove mitigation responsibility from Healers, giving that to DPS and Tanks and reduce some of the healing potential on tank (but not all of it). It does not need to be "super mit". Content like Deep Dungeons are kinda removed from class balance. Case in point, people who do deep dungeons on generally ALL roles, tend to avoid fighting monsters anyway especially on higher floors if possible. Even then, you can design content around what's missing, ala Bozja.

For other things like solo duties, you can simply add a duty option for healing/ shielding as needed (if) it's even needed. Most MSQ scripted fights already incorporate some sort of healing (usually passive) so that all classes can do the content with just not getting hit with things you shouldn't.

Overall, what the game should be balanced around the most is PF Savage as that is the most engaging content in the game that actually utilizes all class tools, but especially Healer. It is where most of the Healers have complaints centered around, and also where Healer role showcases the most issues.

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Well they have to be super mits because stuff in ultimates. Things like Ultimate End, Final Chourus. In particular, The three run dymanis in TOP for example hit for physical dps for 135k and casters for 125k. The other other way to is go back into that fights with your suggestion and change the damage values.


Edit: It's also why the best healing comp in top was sch/sge for how much mit they had.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I personally would say, with current design, remove mitigation responsibility from Healers, giving that to DPS and Tanks and reduce some of the healing potential on tank (but not all of it).

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So what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either? Should it get removed from them too and the boss just automatically applies a 40% mitigation to your entire party before they do their raidwide?

Removing mitigation responsibility from healers is asinine because mitigation is the only reason for barrier healers to exist in the party, you might as well turn everyone into WHMs if you remove mitigation.

As someone who only exists in a party to keep everyone alive, it's pure stupidity to remove any agency to reduce damage taken from the healer role.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Well they have to be super mits because stuff in ultimates. Things like Ultimate End, Final Chourus. In particular, The three run dymanis in TOP for example hit for physical dps for 135k and casters for 125k. The other other way to is go back into that fights with your suggestion and change the damage values.

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**I'm assuming you meant to fix your message to edit in that TOP line but it looks like I said that, which I didn't lol

They would have to be good enough to equate yeah, at least stacked altogether. I don't see the issue with giving DPS & Tanks stronger party MIT overall, or just having DPS specifically have a good personal MIT and Tanks having stronger party MIT. As for going back to older fights, beyond say DSR, they already don't go back to rebalance ultimates so all of these fights with time and buffs to the class potencies / mit options etc, will become lenient ala, UCOB / UWU / TEA. They can still do even 1 to 1 movement of those mitigations to the other roles and not have to change any numbers. I say this with the caveat that if you are going to make such a move, you should rein in the "healing" capability of different jobs.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

So what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either? Should it get removed from them too and the boss just automatically applies a 40% mitigation to your entire party before they do their raidwide?

Removing mitigation responsibility from healers is asinine because mitigation is the only reason for barrier healers to exist in the party, you might as well turn everyone into WHMs if you remove mitigation.

As someone who only exists in a party to keep everyone alive, it's pure stupidity to remove any agency to reduce damage taken from the healer role.

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Actually assuming you read my comments, I clearly wrote in the presence of Shield healers, moving back to 1/2 shields like it was back in the day when the only thing scholar had was Adlo / Succor / Sacred Soil / *Fey if using Eos . We survived just FINE as shield healers when we only had, le gasp, 2 skills on average that actually reduced damage or shields damage.
Most people regard SB has a good time for Healer design right? Healers had WAY less mitigation, way less oGCD heals and way more DPS options. Surprise, surprise.

It's almost as if we have examples for all of this.

As for "what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either", well they could always choose to play Healer then that doesn't HAVE that responsibility anymore. But realistically, it's something they already do with Addle / Feint / Samba / Any AoE Tank Mitigation etc.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

This is largely gibberish as PF perceives any high hitting attack as a "heal check". This is why when the parties are faltering DESPITE any present mitigation, healers are blamed. We could define something more like doom mechanics as heal checks but again that's not only what PF perceives as healer responsibility.

In a normal PF party comp, you are not surviving Harrowing Hell or Cross Slash without healing. That's a hard fact. I'll disagree that tank LB is used for anything else besides the path of least resistance to clear. PF first and foremost, prioritizes clearability and odds to that in everything from LB usage to overall strategy handling mechs. Nothing else generally matters. Hell, I'd be surprised if PF Healers even expect mitigation from anyone on average for specific hits because if you are a PF healer then on average you know something is going to be missing / overlapped etc.

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Most people in PF don't even know their head from their rear, so I couldn't care less what PF perceives high hitting attacks as, they're still mitigation checks disguised as heal checks.

So you're agreeing with me that most PF players are glue eaters. Path of lease resistance was exactly why tank LB was used, because getting 4 rando dps and 2 tanks who have never had to press their mitigations before now having to use them in tandem was painful.

No one said you didn't need healing for Harrowing Hell, good lord, I'm saying you can treat Harrowing Hell like any other mechanic and heal through it with oGCDs like any other mechanic if players used their mitigations and cooldowns properly. Hardly a heal check if played correctly.

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This is a real extreme example that rarely happens in PF. If it's obvious someone died to being in the wrong place, no one is sitting there blaming healers for their death on average.

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The amount of crying about a "lack of healing" I saw from tanks getting 2 tapped by tank buster+dot tick due to under mitigating was too damn much, or dps not helping mitigate during p7s AoEs/Purgation and wondering why they died in half a second. That is wonderful if you've never had to experience that, but it happened.

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To your first point, this is why you need to shift responsibility AWAY from healer role. That's exactly my point so you change the perception of others. As for the second point, most players engage with PF for raiding so take of that what you will.

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Absolutely not. Healer role is already brain dead. It doesn't need LESS responsibility, it needs to take away the mitigations from dps roles.

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I said Healers do not want more responsibility. If that comes in the form of more DPS with the current setup, MORE PF Healers will leave the role. This is proven in every single tier that adds even a modicum of challenge with current healers.

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I quit the role due to a lack of responsibility and the trash dps gameplay of pressing 1 button for 80% of my GCDs. Healing was only passable the first few weeks while everyone raided blind, but reclears were mind numbingly boring. Healers need more responsibility to keep the game interesting, not less. So, no, you do not speak for me as a ex-healer.

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Healers already have the following and they have to play better than every other role when it comes to mechanics specifically as a healer death is far more compromising than DPS or Tank deaths.

-Mitigation
-Healing
-DPS
-Mechanics

With the current setup, if you force much more DPS buttons, you will create an issue where people eventually are like "hey I already have to do all of this and now I have to do a more complex DPS rotation as well?? Forget it, I'll just DPS or Tank." I imagine SE has data that showcased the exact thing occurring to when they reduced DPS kits from HW -> SB -> SHB. If the correlation of Healer having more DPS options on average also lead to more people playing Healer outright, I'd imagine Healers would look very different gameplay wise right now. I think SE reducing DPS buttons off the role is a proof of concept and testament to likely the feedback metrics they are seeing on their end. However, this is also because at current encounter and class design, Healer has to do all of the above.

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Imagine thinking adding a few more dps options for healer is going to melt players brains. This is why FFXIV combat is in such a garbage state.

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Actually, I'm not spreading around anything, just saying how PF see's these mechanics as healer responsibility.

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That's why people need to educate the masses when they incorrectly label mechanics.

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Also I found this ironic, but Link
You don't even heal in PF raids.

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Damn, if only this wasn't an alt character after having retired my healer main.

You're a special one.

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You don't even heal in PF raids. Not a single log in three expansions.

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Correction, not just special, you're a buffoon.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

**I'm assuming you meant to fix your message to edit in that TOP line but it looks like I said that, which I didn't lol

They would have to be good enough to equate yeah, at least stacked altogether. I don't see the issue with giving DPS & Tanks stronger party MIT overall, or just having DPS specifically have a good personal MIT and Tanks having stronger party MIT. As for going back to older fights, beyond say DSR, they already don't go back to rebalance ultimates so all of these fights with time and buffs to the class potencies / mit options etc, will become lenient ala, UCOB / UWU / TEA. They can still do even 1 to 1 movement of those mitigations to the other roles and not have to change any numbers.




Actually assuming you read my comments, I clearly wrote in the presence of Shield healers, moving back to 1/2 shields like it was back in the day when the only thing scholar had was Adlo / Succor / Sacred Soil / *Fey if using Eos . We survived just FINE as shield healers when we only had, le gasp, 2 skills on average that actually reduced damage or shields damage.
Most people regard SB has a good time for Healer design right? Healers had WAY less mitigation, way less oGCD heals and way more DPS options. Surprise, surprise.

It's almost as if we have examples for all of this.

As for "what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either", well they could always choose to play Healer then that doesn't HAVE that responsibility anymore. But realistically, it's something they already do with Addle / Feint / Samba / Any AoE Tank Mitigation etc.

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So now you are arguing the shield healer should have mitigation responsibility there should just be less mitigation overall across the entire party like in SB (which is what we have been arguing for the last 5 pages)

I thought your point was the healer should be irrelevant and have no responsibility

Do you HONESTLY think that shifting the entire paradigm of the trinity is easier and more worthwhile than just making healers good to play for healer mains

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Actually assuming you read my comments, I clearly wrote in the presence of Shield healers, moving back to 1/2 shields like it was back in the day when the only thing scholar had was Adlo / Succor / Sacred Soil / *Fey if using Eos . We survived just FINE as shield healers when we only had, le gasp, 2 skills on average that actually reduced damage or shields damage.
Most people regard SB has a good time for Healer design right? Healers had WAY less mitigation, way less oGCD heals and way more DPS options. Surprise, surprise.

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Ok, if you want to play this way, then name me a single savage mechanic back in SB that hit as hard in as short a time as Harrowing Hell/Cross-Tail Switch, I'll wait.

The mitigation bloat is necessitated by damage bloat, if you want the mitigation to be completely cut down, you'd have to pivot the fight design. Unless you think bloating a melee DPS that already needs to double weave with more mitigation that they HAVE to press to survive is a good idea.

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As for "what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either", well they could always choose to play Healer then that doesn't HAVE that responsibility anymore. But realistically, it's something they already do with Addle / Feint / Samba / Any AoE Tank Mitigation etc.

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So you're basically telling people to go play a role they don't like and spam 1 singular button for 90% of the fight because you think it's a good idea to foist extra responsibility that they're trying to avoid by playing a DPS role onto them for no reason other than you think it would help the healer population, ok.

Ive been healing for a while now, and would like to say that Harrowing hell isnt really a heal check and more of a mit check. Most of the stuff in this game is just mit check. Even in ultimates, such as DSR and TOP.

Most of Us healers are in Static's.
because why would we want to sign up for Party finder where we are first to blame when we can raid with a group and enjoy the people we are with.
Yeah healers are around we just aren't using Party finder because we have groups.

I like to enjoy my game not get thrown under the bus when a wipe goes bad thanks. But hopefully when we are done with our groups we can come help otherwise find a static?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So now you are arguing the shield healer should have mitigation responsibility there should just be less mitigation overall across the entire party like in SB (which is what we have been arguing for the last 5 pages)

I thought your point was the healer should be irrelevant and have no responsibility

Do you HONESTLY think that shifting the entire paradigm of the trinity is easier and more worthwhile than just making healers good to play for healer mains

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No my point has always been with CURRENT encounter and job design, you need to lower responsibility overall of something that healers deal with to entice more people to play the role while also not crushing the supply of players that already play it in PF.
Mitigation, DPS, Healing, Mechanics - Choose which one do you think we should make harder for Healer role? PF doesn't care to make any of these harder as proven by previous tiers. It NEVER responds with an increased presence of Healers. Please point to the example anytime in all of XIV, where we added onto the load of healers on any of these and it increased Healer pop decisively. Even people disagreeing with me are saying Healers get blamed for mitigation issues when they occur regardless but it becomes extremely hard to make that claim if Healers no longer own the large chunk of mitigation.

As for Healer, in this post move should look like, not much different than current but definitely removing the overly present MIT tools on Healer. Shield healers can have 1-3 extra mit options nothing major, and that's about it.

And lastly, the people who have played healer and continue to play healer are healer mains. Not the people that played Healer one tier, then left after whatever discontent they have. They are no longer healer mains if you are not currently playing a healer. Period.

Now that's not to say they shouldn't clean up the gameplay loop of healers. But these are two separate issues that need tackling.

The gameplay loop of healers and the current shortage of healers are not directly tied together as the forums would lead you to believe. Even when we had arguably the OPTIMAL gameplay loop of healers in SB, there was STILL a huge shortage. When they reduced DPS skills from SB to SHB, more people went on the role. It's still a shortage though.
Arcadion is something special. DPS requirement is reduced overall for the raid, but simultaneously alot more healers also progressed through the content week 1, more than the last expansion. It is critically well received, comparable only to SB and Omega, and I think it's potentially even higher than that.

So where does this leave us off? We need more healers in PF, but we can't add responsibilities to the role to not deter people currently playing it. The only option I forsee helping is to remove something from the class, lowering the entry barrier perceived in PF and enticing DPS players to it with the two options I suggested before.
One solution being, remove a specific responsibility from them, while introducing DPS elements back into it. This will align it more with the general responsibility against DPS and Tank.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

snip

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Honestly, at least other people are reading specifically what I'm saying whereas you seem to piece meal parts of my responses and then mix and match what's being said and then saying "So you're basically telling people to go play a role they don't like and spam 1 singular button for 90% of the fight because you think it's a good idea to foist extra responsibility that they're trying to avoid by playing a DPS role onto them for no reason other than you think it would help the healer population, ok."

Like you arguing with your own thought bubble at this point. If you put on your reading glasses, I have very clearly said after shifting mitigation more off, they add DPS kits back onto healers and tune some of the healing capabilities down for other classes. This centralizes Healing to Healer Role, You get some DPS responsibility going and you have mechanics and that's it. It brings down the entry-point for healers, it tools out healers for the people who dislike the current heal design, it takes away blame of everything beyond healing being a "Healer" problem and lastly paired with a job in need bonus it adds incentive for the overall playerbase to fill missing roles. I say all of this with the CURRENT design of encounters and jobs in mind.

You solve the gameplay loop, you solve the entry-barrier, you solve the lacking incentive to play it.

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Originally Posted by SerephinaBlossom

Most of Us healers are in Static's.
because why would we want to sign up for Party finder where we are first to blame when we can raid with a group and enjoy the people we are with.
Yeah healers are around we just aren't using Party finder because we have groups.

I like to enjoy my game not get thrown under the bus when a wipe goes bad thanks. But hopefully when we are done with our groups we can come help otherwise find a static?

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Most players raiding engage with PF. Pretty sure LuckyBanchos numbers and FFL prove this as well. We also already know that an overwhelming portion of the JP playerbase is PF centric and the base situation in NA seems to be similar judging by the presence of parties in PF and again FFL where we can see static uploads versus general uploads. Yes there are alot of Healers in statics but I'm not sure it's even close in the spread.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

No my point has always been with CURRENT encounter and job design, you need to lower responsibility overall of something that healers deal with to entice more people to play the role while also not crushing the supply of players that already play it in PF.

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Strange how there is hardly any difficult mechanics for healers this savage tier, yet there is a severe lack of healers in PF. Almost like dps who don't want to play healers, still wont play healers even if they make the role easier, and those who enjoyed having responsibilities in their gameplay are quitting due to the removal of it over the last few expansions.

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Mitigation, DPS, Healing, Mechanics - Choose which one do you think we should make harder for Healer role? PF doesn't care to make any of these harder as proven by previous tiers. It NEVER responds with an increased presence of Healers. Please point to the example anytime in all of XIV, where we added onto the load of healers on any of these and it increased Healer pop decisively.

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Can you show proof of a time when making the role easier has increased the healer population? I would love to see a chart or graph of the player count.

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Even people disagreeing with me are saying Healers get blamed for mitigation issues when they occur regardless but it becomes extremely hard to make that claim if Healers no longer own the large chunk of mitigation.

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Holy hell, what are you going on about? Healers were getting blamed for a lack of healing, not a lack of mitigation. It was the dps' lack of mitigation getting parties killed, which they tired to shift the blame onto healers as if the "lack of healing" was the culprit.

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And lastly, the people who have played healer and continue to play healer are healer mains. Not the people that played Healer one tier, then left after whatever discontent they have. They are no longer healer mains if you are not currently playing a healer. Period.

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Cry more. Ex-healers can still comment about the state of healers. Get over yourself. You're not the appointed healer representative, and thank god you're not.

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The gameplay loop of healers and the current shortage of healers are not directly tied together as the forums would lead you to believe. Even when we had arguably the OPTIMAL gameplay loop of healers in SB, there was STILL a huge shortage. When they reduced DPS skills from SB to SHB, more people went on the role. It's still a shortage though.

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The burden of proof is on you to prove that there was an increase in healers after the removal of dps skills from SB to ShB. Until then, it is nothing but a baseless claim.

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Arcadion is something special. DPS requirement is reduced overall for the raid, but simultaneously alot more healers also progressed through the content week 1, more than the last expansion. It is critically well received, comparable only to SB and Omega, and I think it's potentially even higher than that.

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DPS requirement wasn't reduced... it was due to them having to buff dps jobs to match PCT and they weren't able to adjust the bosses health pool to account for the higher overall dps. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

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So where does this leave us off? We need more healers in PF, but we can't add responsibilities to the role to not deter people currently playing it. The only option I forsee helping is to remove something from the class, lowering the entry barrier perceived in PF and enticing DPS players to it with the two options I suggested before.
One solution being, remove a specific responsibility from them, while introducing DPS elements back into it. This will align it more with the general responsibility against DPS and Tank.

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Lets go ahead and delete the healer role completely, that way healers don't have to have any responsibility.

Have you considered the possibility that people play healers because they enjoy healing? And that maybe the answer to healer population is to make healers A: Feel necessary, B: Satisfying and C: Fun? A decent part of the healer problem is that other roles are getting an increasing amount of our job making healers feel unnecessary, damage being large scripted and spikey further degrades the necessity of healers and serves only to make healing unsatisfying; especially as healer optimisation is ironically to remove the healer. All of which results in healing not being fun. So you have healers that are A: Unnecessary, B: Not satisfying and C: Not fun and then people wonder why people don't play them.

Then you come along and tell us that the solution is to degrade these things even further...

This has been the case since ever btw. Even in Shadowbringers the last slots to fill were heal slots

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I have very clearly said after shifting mitigation more off, they add DPS kits back onto healers and tune some of the healing capabilities down for other classes. This centralizes Healing to Healer Role, You get some DPS responsibility going and you have mechanics and that's it. It brings down the entry-point for healers, it tools out healers for the people who dislike the current heal design, it takes away blame of everything beyond healing being a "Healer" problem and lastly paired with a job in need bonus it adds incentive for the overall playerbase to fill missing roles. I say all of this with the CURRENT design of encounters and jobs in mind.

You solve the gameplay loop, you solve the entry-barrier, you solve the lacking incentive to play it.

---

If you read and understood what I said, most DPS players do not pick up a DPS job because they want to support the party. Most people don't pick up SAM because "Woah, I can Feint and reduce the damage the party takes!".

You actually solve nothing with what you're proposing other than inflating tank ego further by giving them far more power over the survival of the party. DPS players aren't going to want to play a gimped DPS with a simpler damage rotation, which will be the case because there's no way they would ever give healers a rotation on par in complexity with any DPS job.

All your proposal will do is further reduce the amount of healers that want to play the role, because believe it or not, most people play healers because they want the responsibility. Some people failing to heal in PF doesn't change that.

You're misunderstanding the reason why Abyssos lost a bunch of healers, it came after a very easy tier that onboarded a lot of new healers, introducing a DoT-heavy tier that puts a lot of importance on mitigation right after that would obviously filter out a bunch of newer healers. It's also a tier that came out in the expansion that doubled down on the healer design that people criticised in ShB, meaning some veterans have quit at that point. As for Anabaseios, that tier came after Abyssos, so the newer players who got filtered by it are more hesitant to return. As for more experienced raiders, the tier dropped after TOP, which famously burned out a lot of raiders, I know a lot of raiders who quit after TOP because of how burned out they were.

The actual solution to the problem is to stop treating healers like babies and actually challenge them in content so they don't go all the way up to savage expecting an easy ride just from playing the healer role, your proposal would just push their easy ride all the way through savage because all they have to do is heal the damage and not consider where to place their mitigation cooldowns when the tanks and DPS are responsible for the bulk of it.

Edit: One more thing worth noting is that if you do entice a DPS player to play your new version of healers, what would stop them from purely spamming damage spells and not healing because they only made the swap to the healer role to avoid the extra responsibility you've dumped onto the DPS role?

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

snip

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Regardless of the stupid sarcasm, I will answer one thing. Showing the proof.

1) We have proof in the form of YoshiP who has previously acknowledged the feedback they have received and the statistics they see on their end about how many people are playing Healers. It was the DRIVING reason why they reduced buttons for Healers from SB -> SHB, because according to them, they kept getting comments like people saying they wanted to Heal but felt there was too many things they had to do and it felt too intimidating. From HW to SB, Healer mains complained that Cleric stance and overall usage of it felt janky and non interesting, both iterations of it. After both changes, they saw a decent enough uptick in each expansion in the role that they didn't change much beyond that.
Arcadion with the overall lower DPS check, also has a staggeringly higher amount of week 1 clears compared to other tiers which means that there were a lot more Healers in the mix. I argue it's the lower DPS check tuning overall is what allows this to be present to begin with. Both in clears that occurred and the presence of Healers. That's the point. The lower DPS Requirement for each job in the raid, lead to it being completed more overall by everyone and also receiving high praise. If the check is lower because they didn't tune the raid to accommodate the increased DPS, that DIRECTLY means that the DPS contribution requirement for ALL roles is LOWER.

2) We have never truly had a reduction in responsibility on Healer role but other roles have had reductions. While we had some DPS tools removed from the role, Healer DPS is still a heavy factor into raid clears. If you were to remove even half the DPS from healers, least with current damage, a lot more parties would not be clearing the fights. There are two distinct differences between what happened in HW -> SB and SB -> SHB. The difference is that in HW, the complaints were coming more from Healer mains. In SB, the complaints according to Yoshi P, sounded more from people outside of the role. It was undoubtedly their attempt to mitigate the Healer shortage in PF as after cross-world came into the mix, it became a lot more present that Healers were massively missing and more specifically, SCH. If you see the problem of "wow, we need alot more healers in PF" and the feedback you are getting from non-healers are "hey, we'd like to heal but the barrier is a bit too much" and the feedback you are getting from some healer mains from PF are like "Hey I don't like to play shield healer, I'll just stick to WHM or AST" and the only raid availability is for shield healer, then the logical conclusion to all of that is to lower the barrier of entry for the Healer role as specifically SCH which had a good chunk of it's toolkit nuked. I think at the time, it was probably the best overall decision as whoever was playing the job, was already playing it, so that's that and clearly from SHB to EW, they didn't make any major changes to the toolkit on healers meaning that they both:

- Saw the numbers ticked up enough so they were content with it and didn't feel they needed to do anything else.
- Numbers held on enough that it didn't regress all the way back to SB levels.

The issue we face now is very similar to SB. You have a lot of people coming into the tier playing DPS, compared to tank or heals. General PF response from the current Healer base seems to be "don't give us more work or we quit" as proven by EW tiers, and the overall healer class design seems to lean positive, enough that they haven't felt the need to shift backwards further. They added a single extra DPS button for some healers, likely as a test to see the general response and that was smart as if you just dumped a whole toolkit on people, there is a good chance, people would have left. However, that is not going to solve the shortage that we see now. To solve the shortage we see now, you have to lure people to playing the role. Specifically DPS. You can flush out Healers to SB levels and that will still NOT increase Healer presence in PF by any substantial degree. The only thing we haven't as a whole tried is giving equal responsibility to all roles.

Right now we have

Healer: HEAL, DPS, MIT, MECH
DPS: DPS, MIT, MECH
Tank: MIT, DPS, Mech

I say we shift to

Healer: Heal, DPS, Mech
DPS: DPS, MIT, Mech
Tank: MIT, DPS, Mech

And finally the last component to incentivize players to make the jump, job-in-need bonuses. If Healer role is taking to long to fill too often, then alot of people are going to start queuing as healers. If they gameplay loop is good enough, they will stay playing as healers come the next tier.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Have you considered the possibility that people play healers because they enjoy healing? And that maybe the answer to healer population is to make healers A: Feel necessary, B: Satisfying and C: Fun? A decent part of the healer problem is that other roles are getting an increasing amount of our job making healers feel unnecessary, damage being large scripted and spikey further degrades the necessity of healers and serves only to make healing unsatisfying; especially as healer optimisation is ironically to remove the healer. All of which results in healing not being fun. So you have healers that are A: Unnecessary, B: Not satisfying and C: Not fun and then people wonder why people don't play them.

Then you come along and tell us that the solution is to degrade these things even further...

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Please learn to read exactly the comment I made just slightly above yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

If you put on your reading glasses, I have very clearly said after shifting mitigation more off, they add DPS kits back onto healers and tune some of the healing capabilities down for other classes. This centralizes Healing to Healer Role, You get some DPS responsibility going and you have mechanics and that's it. It brings down the entry-point for healers, it tools out healers for the people who dislike the current heal design, it takes away blame of everything beyond healing being a "Healer" problem and lastly paired with a job in need bonus it adds incentive for the overall playerbase to fill missing roles. I say all of this with the CURRENT design of encounters and jobs in mind.

You solve the gameplay loop, you solve the entry-barrier, you solve the lacking incentive to play it.

---

------------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you read and understood what I said, most DPS players do not pick up a DPS job because they want to support the party. Most people don't pick up SAM because "Woah, I can Feint and reduce the damage the party takes!".

You actually solve nothing with what you're proposing other than inflating tank ego further by giving them far more power over the survival of the party. DPS players aren't going to want to play a gimped DPS with a simpler damage rotation, which will be the case because there's no way they would ever give healers a rotation on par in complexity with any DPS job.

All your proposal will do is further reduce the amount of healers that want to play the role, because believe it or not, most people play healers because they want the responsibility. Some people failing to heal in PF doesn't change that.

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Actually, my suggestion accounts for that. By reducing the healing capability of other jobs, you bring back that responsibility into the healer role, thus making them a requirement. So think like bloodwhetting not being as potent as is, same with heals / ress not being so readily available to use on RDM / SMN / PLD. Things like Cover, (Link), also need to be evaluated which allows something like no healer raids to exist. We could always just introduce a doom mech, but I imagine the only difference we'll see is more clemency and RDM presence in those no healer parties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You're misunderstanding the reason why Abyssos lost a bunch of healers, it came after a very easy tier that onboarded a lot of new healers, introducing a DoT-heavy tier that puts a lot of importance on mitigation right after that would obviously filter out a bunch of newer healers. It's also a tier that came out in the expansion that doubled down on the healer design that people criticised in ShB, meaning some veterans have quit at that point. As for Anabaseios, that tier came after Abyssos, so the newer players who got filtered by it are more hesitant to return. As for more experienced raiders, the tier dropped after TOP, which famously burned out a lot of raiders, I know a lot of raiders who quit after TOP because of how burned out they were.

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Do you believe that the amount of people that voice discontent and left the role for Healer design are a huge chunk of the healer base that raid on healer in PF overall? I don't. Imo, if it was, then I HIGHLY DOUBT we'd even be in this state with Healers. If those voicing any specific discontent with Healer role was a major percentage of the overall healer playerbase, I think we'd see a dramatic shift on how healers play. We have had nearly the same exact playstyle more or less for now 3 expansions since the culling going from SB -> SHB. If the devs haven't chosen to do a complete 180 over 3 expansions then I take that to mean that, no major amount of players have left the scene due to those changes that didn't offset the gain in players on the role.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The actual solution to the problem is to stop treating healers like babies and actually challenge them in content so they don't go all the way up to savage expecting an easy ride just from playing the healer role, your proposal would just push their easy ride all the way through savage because all they have to do is heal the damage and not consider where to place their mitigation cooldowns when the tanks and DPS are responsible for the bulk of it.

Edit: One more thing worth noting is that if you do entice a DPS player to play your new version of healers, what would stop them from purely spamming damage spells and not healing because they only made the swap to the healer role to avoid the extra responsibility you've dumped onto the DPS role?

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My suggestion goes in two parts. You don't only entice with gameplay but ALSO with drops. If people want to gear their mains faster, they will undoubtedly, jump into job-in-need bonuses that reward extra drops. I have no doubt that people will respond in kind to filling those roles. Creating casual off job Healers is smart. Getting people into the mentality "Hey I want more chances for drops guaranteed but I'd have to play "x" role and they also just expanded on the toolkit so let me see what its about" is a good thing. You also have a higher chance of converting casual healers -> main healers another tier then converting Main DPS -> Main Healers. And you have to entice DPS specifically because they FAR outweigh the support roles in presence. Now more than ever.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Regardless of the stupid sarcasm, I will answer one thing. Showing the proof.

1) We have proof in the form of YoshiP who has previously acknowledged the feedback they have received and the statistics they see on their end about how many people are playing Healers.

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Link me to an article that Yoshi-P has acknowledged healer feedback, even better if they show a metric in the healer population. You haven't shown me any proof besides "your word".

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It was the DRIVING reason why they reduced buttons for Healers from SB -> SHB, because according to them, they kept getting comments like people saying they wanted to Heal but felt there was too many things they had to do and it felt too intimidating. From HW to SB, Healer mains complained that Cleric stance and overall usage of it felt janky and non interesting, both iterations of it. After both changes, they saw a decent enough uptick in each expansion in the role that they didn't change much beyond that.

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People stated they were happy a janky stance was removed doesn't mean a slew of people who've never played healer suddenly started to play a healer. I also have yet to see a chart, or graph that illustrates the healer population increasing from them having reduced the (dps) buttons that you have been claiming.

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Arcadion with the overall lower DPS check, also has a staggeringly higher amount of week 1 clears compared to other tiers which means that there were a lot more Healers in the mix.

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Or it just means that groups that would have cleared week 2 or 3 have cleared on week 1 instead.

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I argue it's the lower DPS check tuning overall is what allows this to be present to begin with. Both in clears that occurred and the presence of Healers. That's the point. The lower DPS Requirement for each job in the raid, lead to it being completed more overall by everyone and also receiving high praise. If the check is lower because they didn't tune the raid to accommodate the increased DPS, that DIRECTLY means that the DPS contribution requirement for ALL roles is LOWER.

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Here I thought people were praising the tier because the fights were fun and the designs were great. Guess I missed all of those posts that people only enjoyed the fights because dps balance was off.

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2) We have never truly had a reduction in responsibility on Healer role but other roles have had reductions.

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List some examples then.

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While we had some DPS tools removed from the role, Healer DPS is still a heavy factor into raid clears. If you were to remove even half the DPS from healers, least with current damage, a lot more parties would not be clearing the fights.

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And pressing Glare for 80% of one's GCDs isn't exciting, which is why players are asking for a more involved dps gameplay for healers.

Quote:

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There are two distinct differences between what happened in HW -> SB and SB to SHB. The difference is that in HW, the complaints were coming more from Healer mains more. In SB, the complaints according to Yoshi P, sounded more from people outside of the role. It was undoubtedly their attempt to mitigate the Healer shortage in PF as after cross-world came into the mix, it became a lot more present that Healers were massively missing. If you see the problem of "wow, we need alot more healers in PF" and the feedback you are getting from non-healers are "hey, we'd like to heal but the barrier is a bit too much" and the feedback you are getting from some healer mains from PF are like "Hey I don't like to play shield healer, I'll just stick to WHM or AST, then the logical conclusion to all of that is to lower the barrier of entry for the Healer role. I think at the time, it was probably the best overall decision as whoever was playing the job, was already playing it, so that's that and clearly from SHB to EW, they didn't make any major changes to the toolkit on healers meaning that they both:

- Saw the numbers ticked up enough so they were content with it and didn't feel they needed to do anything else.
- Numbers held on enough that it didn't regress all the way back to SB levels.

---

This was just a whole lot of assumptions on your part and words that amounts to nothing while adding Yoshi-P's name to try to make it sound legit.

Quote:

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The issue we face now is very similar to SB. You have a lot of people coming into the tier playing DPS, compared to tank or heals. General PF response from the current Healer base seems to be "don't give us more work or we quit" as proven by EW tiers,

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your opinion != healer base's opinion

That's fine if you don't want more work, just say "I don't want more work." Don't pretend like the its a shared feeling among healers.

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and the overall healer class design seems to lean positive, enough that they haven't felt the need to shift backwards further.

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Kinda weird seeing multiple threads on the official forums, reddit, and even discord constantly talking about the poor state of healers and ways to improve them if the overall state of healers is leaning positive. If you can link me a thread praising the state of healers, I'd be more than happy to read it.

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They added a single extra DPS button for some healers, likely as a test to see the general response and that was smart as if you just dumped a whole toolkit on people, there is a good chance, people would have left. However, that is not going to solve the shortage that we see now. To solve the shortage we see now, you have to lure people to playing the role. Specifically DPS. You can flush out Healers to SB levels and that will still NOT increase Healer presence in PF. The only thing we haven't as a whole tried is giving equal responsibility to all roles.
Right now we have

Healer: HEAL, DPS, MIT, MECH
DPS: DPS, MIT, MECH
Tank: MIT, DPS, Mech

I say we shift to

Healer: Heal, DPS, Mech
DPS: DPS, MIT, Mech
Tank: MIT, DPS, Mech

---

Quick, easy steps to make the healer role even more frustrating to play. Healers being at the complete mercy of DPS and Tanks to mitigate. I recall WHMs having a real blast last expansion with their limited mitigation tools and how much fun they were having with that.

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And finally the last component to incentivize players to make the jump, job-in-need bonuses.

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Achievement mounts ain't gonna fix this. Lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

If the devs haven't chosen to do a complete 180 over 3 expansions then I take that to mean that, no major amount of players have left the scene due to those changes that didn't offset the gain in players on the role.

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You can choose to believe that the devs don't do a 180 pivot because they're seeing it going well. I can point out an equally possible alternative that they're continuing with this design and just randomly throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks because admitting that gutting the healer role in ShB didn't bring them the large increase in healer population they were expecting would mean that they're admitting that they were wrong.

Neither of us is inherently correct though, because neither of us have hard data, all we have are trends and personal anecdotes.

Quote:

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My suggestion goes in two parts. You don't only entice with gameplay but ALSO with drops. If people want to gear their mains faster, they will undoubtedly, jump into job-in-need bonuses that reward extra drops. I have no doubt that people will respond in kind to filling those roles. Creating casual off job Healers is smart. Getting people into the mentality "Hey I want more chances for drops guaranteed but I'd have to play "x" role and they also just expanded on the toolkit so let me see what its about" is a good thing. You also have a higher chance of converting casual healers -> main healers another tier then converting Main DPS -> Main Healers. And you have to entice DPS specifically because they FAR outweigh the support roles in presence. Now more than ever.

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So, a few things that you'd need to answer to implement this vision of yours:

1) What do you propose removing from the DPS job's kits to make way for the extra mitigation that they're now in charge of?
2) How will you convince the melee DPS that they now need to weave in required mitigation during their busy double weave burst window?
3) What's stopping the DPS players from playing healer for 3 weeks to benefit from the accelerated loot and then abandoning the role altogether after they've gotten BiS for their main?

Also, you're not really addressing the commonly accepted fact that people choose to play DPS to escape responsibility over the party, do you really think it will go over well when SE tells the DPS players that they now play a large part in the survival of the party and they can now be blamed for the party wiping? I think there would be heavy backlash because they didn't sign up for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

snip.

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I know you don't agree and that's fine. There is nothing I can say or show at this point that will convince you of why my solution works or why alot of the solutions proposed won't and haven't worked. PF responds very quickly to what it appreciates and doesn't appreciate on the Healer role.

I offered my solution which is a lot more radical than others. I get that but I stand by it. The current Healer gameplay loop and responsibility pool doesn't work for "ex"-healers, it doesn't work for other role diehards who might be interested in hopping over to healer as an off job and it also doesn't solve the Healer shortage in PF. We can go back to just introducing the sole responsibility of Heals and MIT to healer as we had before and ALSO add more DPS toolkits and see if suddenly more people line up to play healer.

I believe the forums will celebrate for such changes, I think in-game will be a very different outcome with many people leaving the role because it becomes too much. I heavily believe there is no encounter they can design that simultaneously increases Healing / Mit requirements from Healer role solely, that also doesn't wind up boring, that also will have people signing up for the role in PF. It will be largely the exact same thing we have right now where DPS / Tanks don't use their MIT and Healers have to adjust with it anyway.

Let's remove MIT from DPS and Tanks.

Healers: MIT, HEAL, DPS, MECH
DPS: DPS, MECH
Tanks: DPS, MECH

You now have created a new issue for Tanks. What identity do Tanks have? and you still won't entice people to assume so much more responsibility on Healer.

oh wait let's instead let Tanks keep their personal TB abilities.

Healers: MIT (Party), HEAL, DPS, MECH
DPS: DPS, MECH
Tanks: MIT (Personal) DPS, MECH

And you are back to square one. You have practically the exact same scenario we have currently. There will still be a Healer shortage and if they try to design a fight that is so overwhelming that warrant Healers being the pivotal point of focus for all Healing and All Party wide MIT, I forsee people in the majority pool who currently play it leaving the role on PF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Link me to an article that Yoshi-P has acknowledged healer feedback, even better if they show a metric in the healer population. You haven't shown me any proof besides "your word".

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...om_the_14hour/
Specifically Q2 / Q7 halfway down.

https://twinfinite.net/features/ffxi...ers-interview/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...s_going_to_be/
-More excerpts of YoshiP's responses to different interview questions over the years.

You can literally google search "YoshiP response to healer complaints" for every expansion. If you want to engage in the conversation in good faith, the least you can do is a very small amount of research into the responses YoshiP has made over the years including the feedback they have received.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You can choose to believe that the devs don't do a 180 pivot because they're seeing it going well. I can point out an equally possible alternative that they're continuing with this design and just randomly throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks because admitting that gutting the healer role in ShB didn't bring them the large increase in healer population they were expecting would mean that they're admitting that they were wrong.

Neither of us is inherently correct though, because neither of us have hard data, all we have are trends and personal anecdotes.

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Ok...but for 3 expansions? You are telling me that for approximately 4-5 years (half the game lifecycle) they kept looking at Healer role, witnessed all the complaints, witnessed the shortages etc, looked at that and said "Yeah we don't need to change anything".
I highly doubt that. I believe the first supposition that I made backs up the stance they've had. Whatever gains they have acquired on the role post culling + the current core dedicated healers is higher still each expansion then the fall off from ex-healers discontented with it. You had 6 / 7 tiers of raid content to look at. If they saw from SB -> SHB, "wow, the healers catapulted down since we removed all those skills", I am fairly sure they would have reversed course by EW. But they didn't. In fact they didn't make any major changes from SHB -> EW and similarly from EW -> DT. Healers have had the same gameplay style roughly since SB -> SHB. That is more than enough data to analyze and see if the SB skill culling and gameplay tweaks negatively impacted the overall population of Healers.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

So, a few things that you'd need to answer to implement this vision of yours:

1) What do you propose removing from the DPS job's kits to make way for the extra mitigation that they're now in charge of?
2) How will you convince the melee DPS that they now need to weave in required mitigation during their busy double weave burst window?
3) What's stopping the DPS players from playing healer for 3 weeks to benefit from the accelerated loot and then abandoning the role altogether after they've gotten BiS for their main?

Also, you're not really addressing the commonly accepted fact that people choose to play DPS to escape responsibility over the party, do you really think it will go over well when SE tells the DPS players that they now play a large part in the survival of the party and they can now be blamed for the party wiping? I think there would be heavy backlash because they didn't sign up for that.

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1) Build the MIT into the rotations themselves and give them maybe one more skill they can press to protect themselves. Skills like old ManaWall and current ninja Shade Shift come to mind. Make tools like this be more useful, more often. If it's particularly strong (like an AoE) give it a longer cd, if it's not anything game breaking, let it be available more often. Compoundly, depending on how we handle the DPS MIT, I offer we can also just make tank party MIT more viable. Reduce / Remove the Heal capability on both DPS and Tanks.

2) This is already answered by 1 but if they need to press another mitigation unique oGCD to have the party or themselves survive, they will do it. This is different from what we have now where we have the expectation of survivability despite a DPS forgetting to MIT, solely on the Healers. If you shift the expectation from Healers having to MIT, to DPS and Tanks have to MIT, it suddenly becomes a requirement to playing the DPS job, not a suggestion as it currently is. It is very difficult to say "Healers didn't MIT, Healer issue" when the core of Healer toolkit, doesn't have much mitigation. And oddly enough, mitigation and other outside tools that helped the overall raid were more present on DPS roles in HW and SB and people still played DPS just fine and claim some old school class design was better and less homogenous.

3) Nothing, but the job-in-need bonus isn't Healer exclusive. If more people jump into Healer roles because it's more often the bonus, it stands to reason that the job-in-need will shift back to a different role even within the same PF while a post is up. The incentive behind such a system is both faster gearing and filling out PF. However, one important difference after people touch Healer to utilize this feature is that they now have experience on the role. Which will change the narrative. Now you will have people look at PF and be like "Hey there are only Healer slots available but I know roughly what to do on the role so I can jump in" thus helping to fill out PF. You could make the argument "hey, why can't we just keep current Healer responsibility then with such a system" and my response would be that imo, the perception of healers and responsibilities of the role, haven't changed and the incentive for quicker gear isn't enough to shift people over to make a big difference. I forsee more "Yeah it's Healer in queue so I could get more drops but that's more of a pain in the ass then not so I'll pass"

The point of the system is to create offjob players of roles that are harder to fill, not just reward people who already offjob said roles. Many DPS already offjob other DPS or offjob Tank roles, certainly more than Healer, because a DPS and a Tank essentially function the same way responsibility wise. But the role that's hardest to fill right now is undoubtedly Healer. You need the incentive and gameplay loop / responsibility balance (compared to other roles) to bring people to offjob Healer. Once you get people to offjob Healer, and assuming the refined healer gameplay loop resonates with them, you have a higher potential to create Healer mains from then on.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Cross-Tail Switch does almost 900k in 8 seconds, if you can find me any party that can heal through that without tank LB, I'll be impressed.

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I've seen it a couple of times in PF when transition doesn't go well and the healer uses LB3 but man you have to kitchen sink the heck out of it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Cross-Tail Switch does almost 900k in 8 seconds, if you can find me any party that can heal through that without tank LB, I'll be impressed.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I've seen it a couple of times in PF when transition doesn't go well and the healer uses LB3 but man you have to kitchen sink the heck out of it.

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What's wild is that a quick youtube search reveals this

You linked 3 articles from yoshi that say literally nothing about the healer population besides a very vague notion of a shortage

“Hmm I can’t say much on this but please give healers a try” isnt exactly a glowing review of the state of healers in the modern game nor is it any sort of feedback acknowledgement. The “go play ultimate” interview is somehow worse because it’s busy actively dismissive

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

What's wild is that a quick youtube search reveals this

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Seeing that, it's hardly a "PF is lazy and would rather rely on tank LB than heal the mechanic" thing.

It's far more optimal for the tank to clip their GCD than both healers spending the entirety of that attack spamming heals and then not having much mitigation (or MP, in the SCH's case) left for later. This seems to be more of a "lesser damage loss" consideration than a lazy healer issue. Which is kind of expected because the general community sees losing damage as the greatest crime of humanity.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You linked 3 articles from yoshi that say literally nothing about the healer population besides a very vague notion of a shortage

“Hmm I can’t say much on this but please give healers a try” isnt exactly a glowing review of the state of healers in the modern game nor is it any sort of feedback acknowledgement. The “go play ultimate” interview is somehow worse because it’s busy actively dismissive

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Mr. Math, you are the perfect example of a child that got a 4 in Math but a 2 in English.
You are very happy to introduce math, but lack in critical reading skills.

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Q7: This is a question regarding the fourth floor of Savage (P8S), the Savage content, which includes the DPS check required, is definitely a challenging content, the healing check for the second half of this battle was really tight and compared to Dragonsong Reprise (DSR), I feel that there are certain parts in the second half of the battle contains healing check that is required which is comparable to what Ultimate would require, personally I welcome the increase in healing intensity but it causes the parties to be lack of healers when it comes to PF recruitment (be it progging or weekly clears) so I wonder what is your thoughts and opinion on the matter?

YoshiP: Ok I mean this happened before, but if I give an answer to one question, it won't work on the other one (for some reason). Right, we are told that (healers) are free, which is why healers tend to focus on firepower instead, and we should give healers more situations where they need to heal, and we increased the healing work required... I mean for the entire expansion and we did it but as expected this happens....so what are we supposed to do now hahaha...oh god if any I should be the one trying to discuss with you guys here. Aaaaaaahhh I mean yeah I knew this will definitely happen (long sigh). I mean I thought we've achieved quite a good balance here....(long ponder), Well yeah I mean if I have to start decreasing the difficulty and I'll get comments saying it's too lax (laughs). Well I will need data...either way we did indeed increase the intensity for sure, although this was the balance that was asked of us......I mean this is personal disparity, yeah, there are healers who are completely fine with this tuning, and there are other healers who would go "this is too hard I can't do this".

Yeah I apologize but please allow us to continue ponder on this matter and find out what is best and this is what we can do for now."

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So I think the demands, or what a healer desires in the different encounters, differ per the individuals - so I know there are healers who really want to concentrate on just healing and they really don't want to spend their time attacking or dealing damage. So I think it is a very tough question to provide a perfect answer.
So with the fundamental thinking behind how we're adjusting healers, and this pertains to 5.X and beyond, we have been trying to make it so that healers are more - will require for them to perform more heals - so the content damage that you are receiving becomes a little more intense so that healers are a bit more busy.

But that being said, we also don't want to make the content impossible for players with not as high a skill level to clear. Because if we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like ALL the time, or like have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.

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You can surmise 2 things from this:

1) The feedback they have gotten from Healers whether by mouth or statistics has made them incredibly hesitant to tune anything in a major way. Likely that there is no SMALL number of people that are upset if they do too much of anything.
2) They do in fact receive feedback that adding more things to Healer role, is compromising PF recruitment. And they likely have statistics to support that.

Even the interviewer acknowledges this in the question. YoshiP echoes this with " Well I will need data...either way we did indeed increase the intensity for sure, although this was the balance that was asked of us......I mean this is personal disparity, [B]yeah, there are healers who are completely fine with this tuning, and there are other healers who would go "this is too hard I can't do this". Yeah I apologize but please allow us to continue ponder on this matter and find out what is best and this is what we can do for now."

The fact that they haven't made any major changes to the role is literal proof that the PF statistics showcase a direct correlation between "more emphasis on healing" and a drop off from the role in PF in it's current state and likely that the drop off is high enough that they haven't pushed any further changes beyond that. Every response across multiple interviews echoes the same notion of this reluctancy to add more Healing or DPS to healer role.

His hesitancy in his responses and the current state of Healer proves the feedback they have gotten is either equally all over the place or the situation is along the lines of "Yeah, we hear people have complaints but when we make any changes to the role, we see a blowback in PF that's more negative than positive or at least neutral so we are going to take it slow and introduce different things mechanically first and see where that goes". If the overall feedback was "these changes are great, we want more" and that was supported with in game statistics, Yoshi and crew would have "leaned into" more DPS and more Healing on the role but they have not done that. We know this, we can literally see that DPS kits didn't change (sans for a single button), and Healers aren't generally more stressed on the role still (for healing). The inaction IS the proof. What is so hard to understand.

I love how childish you are for continuing to stick to a silly little nickname that sounds like a 3 year made up. For the record I’m an anaesthesiologist in real life and graduated from the 2nd highest rated university in Australia. I think my English is perfectly fine for the record but if you think personal insults will make your argument more palatable to me or others then please go ahead because it reads as more pathetic than damning on me anyway

Moving on to your actual renrathas style 4 page word salad the entire thing basically amounts to “I fell for yoshi p’s PR speak and I’m trying to sell it as hard data”. What you have highlighted amounts to nothing else besides saying any change will have some measure of blowback. ooooh aaaaah what an absolute revelation that is. Saying “some people are happy and we don’t want to make it too hard” again is a hollow statement you are drawing your own conclusions from them acting like that’s the exact intention of yoshi p’s words

Following this is just a really flowery way of saying “no changes must mean that everything is perfect therefore there should be no changes” which again is a hollow statement where you basically just worked back from your own conclusion to try to fit yoshi p’s words

Absolutely nothing in that interview shows that they are happy with healers as they stand in terms of PF standings and if you think it does you are just reading your own conclusion (note there is also nothing there explicitly saying they ARENT happy, I’m not trying to draw that conclusion to fit my narrative from the interview like you are)

Do you see I’m not trying to use that hollow word salad of an interview to prove my point like you are because that’s exactly what it is…….a word salad of PR speak, it’s completely hollow and meaningless

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I love how childish you are for continuing to stick to a silly little nickname that sounds like a 3 year made up. For the record I’m an anaesthesiologist in real life and graduated from the 2nd highest rated university in Australia. I think my English is perfectly fine for the record but if you think personal insults will make your argument more palatable to me or others then please go ahead because it reads as more pathetic than damning on me anyway

Moving on to your actual renrathas style 4 page word salad the entire thing basically amounts to “I fell for yoshi p’s PR speak and I’m trying to sell it as hard data”. What you have highlighted amounts to nothing else besides saying any change will have some measure of blowback. ooooh aaaaah what an absolute revelation that is. Saying “some people are happy and we don’t want to make it too hard” again is a hollow statement you are drawing your own conclusions from them acting like that’s the exact intention of yoshi p’s words

Following this is just a really flowery way of saying “no changes must mean that everything is perfect therefore there should be no changes” which again is a hollow statement where you basically just worked back from your own conclusion to try to fit yoshi p’s words

Absolutely nothing in that interview shows that they are happy with healers as they stand in terms of PF standings and if you think it does you are just reading your own conclusion (note there is also nothing there explicitly saying they ARENT happy, I’m not trying to draw that conclusion to fit my narrative from the interview like you are)

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Ok Mr.Math, so even YoshiP's comments on it and lack of changes on the DPS kits on Healers or the lack of healing intensity changes beyond Abyssos / Anabaseios, when directly answering a question about the healer shortage, can't convince you that they are seeing negative feedback when making any changes. Got it, understood, you get the situation better than the devs, it's all PR mumbo jumbo.

There comes a point where people don't care to be convinced otherwise and you are there Mr.Math. I will no longer care to respond to you. It's largely a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Ok Mr.Math, so even YoshiP's comments on it and lack of changes on the DPS kits on Healers or the lack of healing intensity changes beyond Abyssos / Anabaseios, when directly answering a question about the healer shortage, can't convince you that they are seeing negative feedback when making any changes. Got it, understood, you get the situation better than the devs, it's all PR mumbo jumbo.

There comes a point where people don't care to be convinced otherwise and you are there Mr.Math. I will no longer respond to you.

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Well considering the devs still can’t figure out why people don’t like DT and wuk Lamat and continue to deflect to weird PR reasons like “we didn’t make her aggressive enough” blatant trust of the devs PR speak at this point is a bigger indication you don’t know what’s going on

Awwwwwww you won’t reply to me anymore, damn but you’ve given like 5 pages to aravell, do you not appreciate being simultaneously told you are wrong from three different angles, damn you aravell you stole my fun

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Almost like dps who don't want to play healers, still wont play healers

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And how would you switch to healers now? Get 710 penta and start from scratch? What about old ults, refarm BiS? And FRU - there is no time left to gear healer for that if you are PFing.

Gearing is what is gatekeeping role flexing. DPS and tanks are sitting in PF and waiting for healers due to sunken costs.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

And how would you switch to healers now? Get 710 penta and start from scratch? What about old ults, refarm BiS? And FRU - there is no time left to gear healer for that if you are PFing.

Gearing is what is gatekeeping role flexing. DPS and tanks are sitting in PF and waiting for healers due to sunken costs.

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There are a few things, but every one of them would go against CBU3's attempts at stretching out player's subscription. It was why I created savage alts so I could have multiple roles to play with and not suffer from being gatekept by gear.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

And how would you switch to healers now? Get 710 penta and start from scratch? What about old ults, refarm BiS? And FRU - there is no time left to gear healer for that if you are PFing.

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I agree with your general sentiment- the gearing is a problem, but so is how Savage is set up. If you clear, you can't go help people without incurring a penalty on the rewards. So it's hard to gear alt jobs and it's hard to help without messing other people up.
Even if there was a core of players for the needed jobs that were super dedicated and would hypothetically be joining clears 24/7, the game blockades that. You really feel the drain on some roles as the week progresses and people get their clears. You can't even clear out of order, which might alleviate the problem somewhat.
I think this whole reward penalty was created either to stop clear sales or maybe slow down the gear progression, but it's so outdated and actively hurts the pool of available players at any given time.
There are way too many issues with the gearing and reward system right now, which compound with the job/balance issues to make it all a mess.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I think this whole reward penalty was created either to stop clear sales or maybe slow down the gear progression, but it's so outdated and actively hurts the pool of available players at any given time.
There are way too many issues with the gearing and reward system right now, which compound with the job/balance issues to make it all a mess.

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It was hilarious of me to have thought that Criterion/Crit Savage was going to be a great secondary route to gear up alt jobs.

Instead, CBU3 was like, "Here's a chair mount for your troubles."

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

And how would you switch to healers now? Get 710 penta and start from scratch? What about old ults, refarm BiS? And FRU - there is no time left to gear healer for that if you are PFing.

Gearing is what is gatekeeping role flexing. DPS and tanks are sitting in PF and waiting for healers due to sunken costs.

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I clear every week on 2 710 healers on PF, so what you're talking about?

Heck it's not even just healer, my 713 MCH also has no problem finding group.

Like ... the majority of the PF do not put a ilvl lock for weekly clear. So you should really stop making stuffs up. Unless you specifically want to join those ilvl lock party because you want to fish for a carry.

Also what stopping you making your own PF? Heck even now I regularly run into undisclosed alt-clear and rarely I see people kick up a fuss about it unless you don't meet enrage/wiping. A healer making their own PF would have no issue of having it filled.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Cross-Tail Switch does almost 900k in 8 seconds, if you can find me any party that can heal through that without tank LB, I'll be impressed.



Did you even read the post? I literally wrote right there that I looked for a weekly savage PF "at reset", weekly reset is 5pm in Japan, not midnight.

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Even so, 40 minutes is a far cry from the claim that no one is playing healers and content is unable to be completed as a result, which was supposed to be the point of this healer strike. Condescension aside I don't think there is any scenario where every PF will be filled instantly with everyone always playing their preferred role or job, so I guess the question is what would you see as a measure of successful job design?

A lot of healers in here saying they want more healing, but when there is a healing check (m4s) they demand we use tank LB. Make your minds up.

Also on EU the most in demand role is Physical Ranged, usually get healers join before getting a prdps

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

A lot of healers in here saying they want more healing, but when there is a healing check (m4s) they demand we use tank LB. Make your minds up.

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The meaning of healing check has been lost, it seems.

Ion cannon phase is a healing check. Fusefield is a healing check.

Cross-Tail Switch is a mitigation check. You're not surviving that unless you stack mitigations very high, so it's by nature a mitigation check.

I enjoyed my first experience of M4N, the final "mechanic" there was really nice, I just wish it was as threatening now as it was then. As I've said previously though, rather than more and higher spike damage, I'd prefer to see more sustained damage over the course of a duty with more frequent, lower spikes.

Part of the problem with high spike damage is that people are naturally going to reach a point where it's safer to use a Tank LB than dump half the healer's kit into it.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Part of the problem with high spike damage is that people are naturally going to reach a point where it's safer to use a Tank LB than dump half the healer's kit into it.

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For the mechanic they're talking about, you don't only use half a healer kit, you end up burning half your total mitigation available in the whole party, and it still does around 50k per hit (less or more depending on how much you dump on it), so you still need both healers spamming heals to get through it.

At that point, it stops being "OMG, healers are sooooo lazy, they don't even want to HEAL" and starts being a case of tank LB being safer and more reliable in an uncontrolled environment like PF.

Edit: I think it makes the whole situation extra funny because healers have to clear an actual heal check in M3S (Fusefield) before even getting into M4S where they're suddenly lazy and incompetent and can't handle a heal check.

Yeah... A four hit wipe after a parties mits isn't what I call a heal check, that IS a tank LB moment.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

For the mechanic they're talking about, you don't only use half a healer kit, you end up burning half your total mitigation available in the whole party, and it still does around 50k per hit (less or more depending on how much you dump on it), so you still need both healers spamming heals to get through it.

At that point, it stops being "OMG, healers are sooooo lazy, they don't even want to HEAL" and starts being a case of tank LB being safer and more reliable in an uncontrolled environment like PF.

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And don't forget you go into that part right after another big heal/mit check just before the transition, so the party/healers already partially spent. So this particular complain about this tank LB feels pretty braindead tbh.

Edit: just notice the poster who claimed about tank LB is a DK ... welp guess that make sense LOL. Most party move their 2min so I bet the complain isn't really about the tank LB or healer being lazy, but more about a "MY GCD!!"