Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

It’s not an exaggeration to say in cleave content bloodwhetting is 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD

you physically cannot balance that amount of healing because if the enemies did enough damage to challenge that the other tanks would be shredded and the healers wouldn’t be able to keep up m

It is physically impossible to balance bloodwhetting in its current form

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Ima be honest I dont think its possible to balance casual AOE content around Bloodwhetting, its so absurdly strong in AOE that you honestly end up just wasting 80% of its healing.
I cant imagine how hard mobs would have to hit to contest it.

Like I agree normal content could be made harder, but I do actually think that Bloodwhetting is the biggest barrier keeping that from ever happening.

---

About the only thing you could do is to reduce W2W pulls down to one or two hard hitting mobs. Otherwise, in AoE, Bloodwhetting (in it's current state) simply out does every healer.

I hope they adjust the tanks. Right now it's a joke. PLD HW is laughing on his grave right now.

I dont think they will change BW. If anything they will buff it in DT. Probably a new trait that doubles the shield potency and heals on the end of the duration. They cannot balance dungeons around just one tank. If anything I think dungeons are balanced around a minimum ilvl DRK which is why its so easy for WAR and the other tanks.

Pretty much for the media tour, every tank will look at WAR to see what WAR gets. Because ultimately that is all that matters in terms of balance in CASUAL content for other tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

I dont think they will change BW. If anything they will buff it in DT. Probably a new trait that doubles the shield potency and heals on the end of the duration. They cannot balance dungeons around just one tank. If anything I think dungeons are balanced around a minimum ilvl DRK which is why its so easy for WAR and the other tanks.

Pretty much for the media tour, every tank will look at WAR to see what WAR gets. Because ultimately that is all that matters in terms of balance in CASUAL content for other tanks.

---

They can balance dungeons around all tanks if 2 weren’t so disgustingly cracked on their own self sustain they put the others to shame

Nerf PLD and WAR and suddenly they are balanced

Saying “it’s balanced around DRK so there is no choice by for WAR to be cracked” is just stupid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

I dont think they will change BW. If anything they will buff it in DT. Probably a new trait that doubles the shield potency and heals on the end of the duration. They cannot balance dungeons around just one tank. If anything I think dungeons are balanced around a minimum ilvl DRK which is why its so easy for WAR and the other tanks.

Pretty much for the media tour, every tank will look at WAR to see what WAR gets. Because ultimately that is all that matters in terms of balance in CASUAL content for other tanks.

---

They can't keep designing it like that. It goes against their entire philosophy of "bring the player not the job" Except now it quite literally is if you are playing anything but Warrior you are playing the inferior tank. Warrior IS meta right now.

And if they continue to keep treading in that direction, not only will usage of the other tanks start plummeting into the ground, as they now bring two warriors or maybe a warrior and GNB if GNB remains highest dps, but they expect the tank population to drop too. Not everyone wants to play one specific tank when there's four of them because they decided to make WAR the defacto choice for every single situation because it has all this power with 0 downsides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

I dont think they will change BW. If anything they will buff it in DT. Probably a new trait that doubles the shield potency and heals on the end of the duration. They cannot balance dungeons around just one tank. If anything I think dungeons are balanced around a minimum ilvl DRK which is why its so easy for WAR and the other tanks.

Pretty much for the media tour, every tank will look at WAR to see what WAR gets. Because ultimately that is all that matters in terms of balance in CASUAL content for other tanks.

---

Funny how that works, though.
Why can't savage be designed around Warrior doing 3% less dps?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They can balance dungeons around all tanks if 2 weren’t so disgustingly cracked on their own self sustain they put the others to shame

Nerf PLD and WAR and suddenly they are balanced

Saying “it’s balanced around DRK so there is no choice by for WAR to be cracked” is just stupid

---

dungeons can be cleared with 1 healer and 3 dps just fine honestly, the bar for that content is so low it really doesn't matter what you bring

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiscoPug

dungeons can be cleared with 1 healer and 3 dps just fine honestly, the bar for that content is so low it really doesn't matter what you bring

---

The problem is if you bring 1 healer 3 DPS your run will go slower and be messier than 1 tank 1 healer 2 DPS

if you bring 1 tank 3 DPS your run will go FASTER than even bringing a healer

No matter how easy it is you should never benefit from dropping a part of the trinity and this is an easily fixable balance issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiscoPug

dungeons can be cleared with 1 healer and 3 dps just fine honestly, the bar for that content is so low it really doesn't matter what you bring

---

I will not enjoy healing with that setup.. With WAR though, you're very sturdy, can direct all aggro to yourself so you will not worry with dps getting hit all around, and can over heal yourself and an ally every 25 seconds.

I like that warrior is the life steal tank but yeah it's kinda ridiculous at this point. The life steal is just too good and the fact parsers cry over damage not being equal has just kinda made GNB and DRK worthless and PLD is just a good co tank in high end content but in any normal content everyone just wants a WAR.

For context, I currently play AST and I regularly play WHM and SCH. When I tank, I do play Warrior. I have all my jobs maxed, but yeah. I stick to healing a lot. And even with that background, it's so weird to hear people in this thread say that warrior's fun skill should be gutted because it's busted in dungeons and making healers obsolete. Lots of jobs become busted when their skills are applied to packs of enemies. It's not warrior's fault that healing casual content is so gutted and devoid of fun that nobody wants to play them and the devs are terrified of making any content with high outgoing damage. You want healers to be necessary in low end content? Rather than nerf warrior's fun casual kit, just make the content actually threatening. Hell, all you'd need to do... if your goal wasn't even "fun" or whatever but just to force players to include healers again, all you'd really genuinely need to do is have the first boss apply a cleansable unavoidable doom to everyone in the group. The solution to preventing this mess is so simple, but they haven't done it in a single dungeon for this entire expansion because they probably realize that most normal people don't care when trivial content gets trivialized, or they're fine with dungeons (of all the things for people to get caught up over lmao) being easy because they know most of dutyfinder is crap anyway and can't handle basic stuff.

Hell, the only people I know who even do 3dps/1tank are premade groups of friends anyway. If I were ever in the mood to go heal a level 90 dungeon (lol), I'd just queue it because it pops instantly due to nobody wanting to deal with babysitting 3 random people who don't know how to play the game. So much of this thread is comprised of people who definitely aren't chomping at the bit to heal dungeons, wringing their hands about the poor sad hypothetical healers who'll be excluded from some expert roulette speedrun. And somehow that's warrior's fault, lmao. Oh man, and second newsflash for people who just haven't encountered a good tank yet. With good enough damage, a PLD and a GNB won't need the healing either. Just FYI. So we can nerf them too if you want. GNB's Heart of Corundum is straight up just SCH's Excog with a new coat of paint. And a good PLD had me legit doing nothing when I "healed" him in an expert dungeon the other day. Better nerf those dudes too, right. Or we can just make the casual content not insultingly easy. Again, it wouldn't be hard to just include healchecks in this content. Idk why they don't. I wish they would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

For context

---

r/selfawarewolves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

lots of words

---

As has been explained more times than I can possibly count you can’t scale damage hard enough to outscale bloodwhetting, it just doesn’t work

In a dungeon as much as any other content I want to heal, not watch the tank heal themselves while I do something vaguely related to that task

It’s the same as saying “don’t nerf bloodwhetting just add cleanable debuffs and lots of buffs and things to compensate” like no the tank isn’t the healer and the healer shouldn’t be stuffed to the side so the tank can be the healer

One or two white hole mechanics per boss isn’t going to change anything and white hole mechanics are the worst mechanic for the sylphies anyway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s the same as saying “don’t nerf bloodwhetting just add cleanable debuffs and lots of buffs and things to compensate” like no the tank isn’t the healer and the healer shouldn’t be stuffed to the side so the tank can be the healer

---

It's ok, they'll add a raidwide unavoidable doom and add an AoE Esuna effect to Shake it Off to compensate. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

It's ok, they'll add a raidwide unavoidable doom and add an AoE Esuna effect to Shake it Off to compensate. :)

---

An Esuna that cleanses all cleansables at the same time, like the original 4.0 Shake it Off, yes lol.

Time to make virtually every Esuna check completely obsolete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The problem is if you bring 1 healer 3 DPS your run will go slower and be messier than 1 tank 1 healer 2 DPS

if you bring 1 tank 3 DPS your run will go FASTER than even bringing a healer

No matter how easy it is you should never benefit from dropping a part of the trinity and this is an easily fixable balance issue

---

Ultimates are being beaten without healers, and/or tanks only. I think this game has bigger issues with balance than just WAR doing something that it has always been doing since ARR. It's always been a self heal tank and will always be. Honestly its been downhill for all tanks ever since SB where all tanks had access to a self heal but were also vastly different from each other in terms of gameplay loop. I'm sure a return to DA+AD spam would stop all those DRK's from whining about WAR's self sustain in dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marxam

Ultimates are being beaten without healers, and/or tanks only. I think this game has bigger issues with balance than just WAR doing something that it has always been doing since ARR. It's always been a self heal tank and will always be. Honestly its been downhill for all tanks ever since SB where all tanks had access to a self heal but were also vastly different from each other in terms of gameplay loop. I'm sure a return to DA+AD spam would stop all those DRK's from whining about WAR's self sustain in dungeons.

---

Still both those examples are tanks being overly strong which aligns with what I said, the dungeon problem isn’t even a WAR exclusive problem it’s just the most egregious

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marxam

Ultimates are being beaten without healers, and/or tanks only. I think this game has bigger issues with balance than just WAR doing something that it has always been doing since ARR. It's always been a self heal tank and will always be. Honestly its been downhill for all tanks ever since SB where all tanks had access to a self heal but were also vastly different from each other in terms of gameplay loop. I'm sure a return to DA+AD spam would stop all those DRK's from whining about WAR's self sustain in dungeons.

---

You wanted to do the same dps as us, it's time to give up the healing tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marxam

Ultimates are being beaten without healers, and/or tanks only. I think this game has bigger issues with balance than just WAR doing something that it has always been doing since ARR. It's always been a self heal tank and will always be. Honestly its been downhill for all tanks ever since SB where all tanks had access to a self heal but were also vastly different from each other in terms of gameplay loop. I'm sure a return to DA+AD spam would stop all those DRK's from whining about WAR's self sustain in dungeons.

---

Hi, DA+AD era DRK here, no we would not "stop whining" for an issue we don't have. DAAD + TBN/Delirium cycling was extremely rewarding, but also incredibly broken.

Also I am pretty sure what WAR did back since ARR was not nearly as obscene and accessible as is now.

ARR + HW -> Access to Bloodbath on 90s CD, 30s duration (33% uptime), Steel Cyclone 25% lifesteal if Defiance, Inner Beast 50% if Defiance
Stormblood -> Access to Inner Release (90s CD) + Steel Cyclone, no Bloodbath, nowhere near as sustainable and took effort.
Shadowbringers -> Access to Nascent Flash (25s CD for 3 GCDs), scaled with damage dealt (not flat potencies), took moderate effort. There has been a video of a WAR clearing Pagl'than solo during that time - with full-sized pulls.

Current is what we had in Shadowbringers, but on crack. That aside, they have it now Lv56+ along with Equilibrium, a massively beefed up Shake it Off and a further regen on Shake.

Sorry but no, no tank should be this good at sustaining things. I said back in Stormblood DAAD cycling was stupid, this just takes the cake.

Abyssal Drain DA spam got nerfed for a reason.
I don't think bringing it back is a good solution to anything.

At least dark arts abyssal drain requires the barest understanding of how your kit worked to actually make work and you needed to know when to use it and when to go for raw damage considering tanks in DPS stance were functionally just melee DPS by damage contribution

bloodwhetting’s other big problem besides its raw power is how damn easy it is to execute

If you can press bloodwhetting and literally a single AOE button in the next 4 GCD’s you get a benediction, there is literally zero skill involved

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marxam

I'm sure a return to DA+AD spam would stop all those DRK's from whining about WAR's self sustain in dungeons.

---

It's worth remembering that DA AD was designed as a dps loss to use at baseline. To justify its use, you needed to have an excess of MP where you would otherwise cap due to the gains from Blood Weapon/Blood Price/Quietus. Even after the 4.3 rework, this dps loss was still not refunded, simply because the dev team knew that a dps penalty was required to keep it in check. And even before the healing component was nerfed in 4.0, it was 120 potency per mob rather than 400. There was also no single target equivalent.

I think this highlights an important feature of tank self-sustain. It shouldn't be available on demand, and there need to be restrictions around its use. The equivalent would be if you weaved in an ability before every GCD with Bloodwhetting up to consume beast gauge in exchange for some extra healing. Even healers have to make trade-offs in order to maintain their healing output. Why shouldn't you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I think this highlights an important feature of tank self-sustain. It shouldn't be available on demand, and there need to be restrictions around its use.

---

Pretty much this. And they seemingly forgot this important point within 2 years.

Back in Stormblood Warrior's healing was limited by both beast gauge for Inner Beast and tank stance for both it and Equilibrium, not only a heavy restriction but also a dps loss.
Even in Shadowbringers, where most of the restrictions were lifted, Nascent Flash was still limited by your ability to do enough damage during the buff, which consequently limited it by how many high potency skills were available to you at that moment.

But somehow the knowledge about needing to restrict tank sustain vanished from the dev's collective memory with Endwalker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

r/selfawarewolves

---

Yup, knew I'd get this response. In a game where you can play every job, I ... play every job! Fantastic rebuttal though. Have a reddit upvote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

As has been explained more times than I can possibly count you can’t scale damage hard enough to outscale bloodwhetting, it just doesn’t work

In a dungeon as much as any other content I want to heal, not watch the tank heal themselves while I do something vaguely related to that task

It’s the same as saying “don’t nerf bloodwhetting just add cleanable debuffs and lots of buffs and things to compensate” like no the tank isn’t the healer and the healer shouldn’t be stuffed to the side so the tank can be the healer

One or two white hole mechanics per boss isn’t going to change anything and white hole mechanics are the worst mechanic for the sylphies anyway

---

Sorry if I missed your original posts on this. We're at nearly 20 pages and I stopped after the first 3 because I got so tired of just seeing the same types of posts over and over again.
I can understand being put out by the current system. It's not great. I'd argue (and I did, in my OP) that there are ways to make healer feel like its presence matters in dungeons without gutting the fun out of WAR's kit. Going off of the logic in this thread, you'd basically need to nerf PLD and GNB as well, because if you know what you're doing on those jobs you don't really need a healer as those tanks either for dungeons. And the reason is like, yeah, they have self sustain, but also and more importantly, nothing really hurts in these trivial ass dungeons. If they just made the content itself more aggressive, more painful, and more interesting in general then we'd have a need for healers, we'd have actual fun dungeon content, and we wouldn't have to remove skills that lots of people actively enjoy to do it.

Frankly, it blows me away that we're talking about this from a dungeon context because dungeons are so trivial that every job in existence can invalidate them. Like, are you gonna pull up and ask for BLM's aoe to be nerfed because it kills the weak trash so fast that you don't have to heal? Or hey, maybe we can just take the stun out of holy so you can heal during what's usually a minimally damaging stun period? Literally the issue is that dungeons and story content in general are a joke. You can gut all the jobs until they play like healers but it won't change that this content was made for people who don't have thumbs, and as long as that's true it'll always get trivialized somehow no matter what.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

Yup, knew I'd get this response. In a game where you can play every job, I ... play every job! Fantastic rebuttal though. Have a reddit upvote.



Sorry if I missed your original posts on this. We're at nearly 20 pages and I stopped after the first 3 because I got so tired of just seeing the same types of posts over and over again.
I can understand being put out by the current system. It's not great. I'd argue (and I did, in my OP) that there are ways to make healer feel like its presence matters in dungeons without gutting the fun out of WAR's kit. Going off of the logic in this thread, you'd basically need to nerf PLD and GNB as well, because if you know what you're doing on those jobs you don't really need a healer as those tanks either for dungeons. And the reason is like, yeah, they have self sustain, but also and more importantly, nothing really hurts in these trivial ass dungeons. If they just made the content itself more aggressive, more painful, and more interesting in general then we'd have a need for healers, we'd have actual fun dungeon content, and we wouldn't have to remove skills that lots of people actively enjoy to do it.

---

Why does a tanks “fun” hinge on being a healer, if you want to heal then play a healer, not have the tank be a blue healer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why does a tanks “fun” hinge on being a healer, if you want to heal then play a healer, not have the tank be a blue healer

---

It's just a satisfying part of the kit.
Are you actually making the argument that jobs should stick to a single role, in a game that encourages healers to dps 95% of the time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

It's just a satisfying part of the kit.
Are you actually making the argument that jobs should stick to a single role, in a game that encourages healers to dps 95% of the time?

---

I’m making the argument that tanks don’t need to be healers especially in a game where healers can’t be tanks

All roles do damage because damage pushes an encounter forward, DPS don’t need to be healers or tanks, tanks don’t need to be healers and healers don’t need to be tanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m making the argument that tanks don’t need to be healers especially in a game where healers can’t be tanks

All roles do damage because damage pushes an encounter forward, DPS don’t need to be healers or tanks, tanks don’t need to be healers and healers don’t need to be tanks

---

You say that, but the sad/funny thing is in dungeons, which has been the strange primary focus of this discussion, healers CAN be tanks. Because the damage is just that pathetically low. I've done stupid meme runs of 1h/3dps -just to see what would happen- and it actually worked, like even the tankbusters didn't come close to lethal (tested this with trusts, by letting thancred die and then just aquaveiling myself before a tankbuster hit me lol), and packs of trash die so fast that it legit isn't even a factor. That's why I keep harping on the fact that if you're going to have this discussion about gutting a job, the basis of it probably shouldn't be be how well it performs in dungeons because modern dungeons are so nerfed and so soft that basically any comp can go in and experience no issues. The whole focus of this thread just seems aimed in the wrong direction to me. Because even if you got your way and WAR was just a boring tank that did 123 until it filled its gauge, next you'd probably be in here talking about Paladin having too many heals, and then you'd probably want GNB's HoC removed too, and then there're DPS jobs that heal as well so we'd better remove that too, ... or the devs could just release dungeons that actually called for the beefy healing kits that healers have, and we wouldn't have to ruin anything for anyone. I prefer the latter approach, as someone who plays everything and does actually heal quite a bit.

Gonna hop out, was genuinely nice talking to you. Sorry if it felt repetitive on your end though.

Well I was going to ask the above but he is leaving so I’ll ask it as a general question

Tank mains, if DT came out and square decided to make it so that holy’s stun never fell off so that as long as the WHM pressed it once every 10 seconds or so the enemies could never actually do damage to you would you genuinely enjoy that. I mean it makes the run easier And if you ever say “but I like being able to press my defensives” other people respond with “but holy is fun, don’t ruin healers change tanks”

That’s basically what bloodwhetting is/not excog and holy Shelton as well

Pressing a fun button shouldn’t invalidate another role

I'm genuinely curious why so many people see rebalancing Bloodwhetting's healing as "gutting a fun tank".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Well I was going to ask the above but he is leaving so I’ll ask it as a general question

Tank mains, if DT came out and square decided to make it so that holy’s stun never fell off so that as long as the WHM pressed it once every 10 seconds or so the enemies could never actually do damage to you would you genuinely enjoy that. I mean it makes the run easier And if you ever say “but I like being able to press my defensives” other people respond with “but holy is fun, don’t ruin healers change tanks”

That’s basically what bloodwhetting is/not excog and holy Shelton as well

Pressing a fun button shouldn’t invalidate another role

---

That analogy is pretty good.

To answer the obvious, no.

Quite frankly, none of the short tank CD's needed upgrading, Nascent Flash in ShB was infinitely better designed than Bloodwhetting as well. I would much rather they get downscaled to how they were prior and they actually do something with the long CD's (Shadow Wall, Sentinel, and Nebula) that differentiate them from one another. Vengeance already has the counterattack damage, now it [potentially] looks like it's getting another effect in Dawntrail. It will be upsetting to say the least if the other three tanks don't get something done with their long CD's.

To make a case in point, I'll dabble with PLD and GNB from time to time, but I actively refuse to play Warrior because you're playing god while the job is about as engaging as putting bread in the toaster then waiting for it to be done. I don't care if it's dungeon content and it's made to be easy, bloodwhetting makes the already boring and mundane even more boring and I refuse to make the Healer's role nothing more than flavor text. It wouldn't be the end of the world if it literally got reverted to ShB Nascent Flash, it was already more than enough.

I have many gripes with DRK currently, but the defensive toolkit is not one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avoidy

You say that, but the sad/funny thing is in dungeons, which has been the strange primary focus of this discussion, healers CAN be tanks. Because the damage is just that pathetically low. I've done stupid meme runs of 1h/3dps -just to see what would happen- and it actually worked, like even the tankbusters didn't come close to lethal (tested this with trusts, by letting thancred die and then just aquaveiling myself before a tankbuster hit me lol), and packs of trash die so fast that it legit isn't even a factor. That's why I keep harping on the fact that if you're going to have this discussion about gutting a job, the basis of it probably shouldn't be be how well it performs in dungeons because modern dungeons are so nerfed and so soft that basically any comp can go in and experience no issues. The whole focus of this thread just seems aimed in the wrong direction to me. Because even if you got your way and WAR was just a boring tank that did 123 until it filled its gauge, next you'd probably be in here talking about Paladin having too many heals, and then you'd probably want GNB's HoC removed too, and then there're DPS jobs that heal as well so we'd better remove that too, ... or the devs could just release dungeons that actually called for the beefy healing kits that healers have, and we wouldn't have to ruin anything for anyone. I prefer the latter approach, as someone who plays everything and does actually heal quite a bit.

Gonna hop out, was genuinely nice talking to you. Sorry if it felt repetitive on your end though.

---

This guy gets it.

You just don't want WAR nerfed and continue to be OP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Well I was going to ask the above but he is leaving so I’ll ask it as a general question

Tank mains, if DT came out and square decided to make it so that holy’s stun never fell off so that as long as the WHM pressed it once every 10 seconds or so the enemies could never actually do damage to you would you genuinely enjoy that. I mean it makes the run easier And if you ever say “but I like being able to press my defensives” other people respond with “but holy is fun, don’t ruin healers change tanks”

That’s basically what bloodwhetting is/not excog and holy Shelton as well

Pressing a fun button shouldn’t invalidate another role

---

I wouldn't care because it's dungeon content. Dungeon content in it's current form is already boring...no mater what tank/job I play. This also goes for alliances (Nier/ivalice raids are exceptions as those were good amount of difficult....hell even delebrum regena and dalriada can be lobbed in there also).

Why would I even care if a dungeon run takes LESS time since it's gear I don't need or i'm going to trade it the grand company for YET MORE dark matter. Get the daily done....and get out. It's all about the tomes and being savage ready. Where the real content starts imo.

And crazy thing is about savage/ultimate....THAT is where all the jobs are BALANCED. WAR isn't this godlike being that can't die....neither is PLD...or GNB...or DRK.

That being said....I have advocated for YEARS that tanks need to take WAY more damage in dungeons....prevent Wall to Wall pulling...and stop with making content style over substance. I remember games that rewarded you with completing something difficult and you get to see what happens in the story for beating a difficult dungeon. Now it's just snoozefest in dungeons. I miss hardmodes, and alternate versions. I used to run those primarily in ARR and Heavensward because they required more then 2 brain cells to complete.

DT hopefully won't double down on Endwalker dungeon design and actually have dungeons be a right of passage to progress the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

You just don't want WAR nerfed and continue to be OP

---

No....I don't want something nerfed...that doesn't need nerfed.

Try savage or ultimate....WAR is fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sqwall

I wouldn't care because it's dungeon content. Dungeon content in it's current form is already boring...no mater what tank/job I play. This also goes for alliances (Nier/ivalice raids are exceptions as those were good amount of difficult....hell even delebrum regena and dalriada can be lobbed in there also).

Why would I even care if a dungeon run takes LESS time since it's gear I don't need or i'm going to trade it the grand company for YET MORE dark matter. Get the daily done....and get out. It's all about the tomes and being savage ready. Where the real content starts imo.

And crazy thing is about savage/ultimate....THAT is where all the jobs are BALANCED. WAR isn't this godlike being that can't die....neither is PLD...or GNB...or DRK.

That being said....I have advocated for YEARS that tanks need to take WAY more damage in dungeons....prevent Wall to Wall pulling...and stop with making content style of substance. I remember games that rewarded you with completing something difficult and you get to see what happens in the story for beating a difficult dungeon. Now it's just snoozefest in dungeons. I miss hardmodes, and alternate versions. I used to run those primarily in ARR and Heavensward because they required more then 2 brain cells to complete.

DT hopefully won't double down on Endwalker dungeon design and actually have dungeons be a right of passage to progress the story.

---

Okay then let me ask the reverse question, if dungeon content is so easy then what’s the downside to nerfing bloodwhetting, it’s obviously not needed so why does it need to exist

You obviously glean no enjoyment from dungeon content so it’s not like the button is fun for you to press

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay then let me ask the reverse question, if dungeon content is so easy then what’s the downside to nerfing bloodwhetting, it’s obviously not needed so why does it need to exist

You obviously glean no enjoyment from dungeon content so it’s not like the button is fun for you to press

---

I have stated numerous times bloodwhetting is broken in dungeon content. I don't deny this. But like I have said and I'll say it again...Bloodwhetting in single target scenario is balanced with the other tanks save DRK.

That's why when I go into savage or my discord needs a tank fill for an ultimate (personally dislike ultimates)...WAR feels fine. Now ultimates isn't a good gauge for the argument as most ultimate's don't grant Bloodwhetting.

But the real issue everyone is having is that bloodwhetting in dungeons is just flat out broken. So like I mentioned before...in order to "fix" this SE can do 1 of 2 things....or 2 things idk.

1. Make bloodwhetting have a diminished return after the first enemy is hit. i.e. 100% regen for first....60% for second....40% for third....and 20% for remainder.
2. Make dungeons actually hard....I have mentioned in the past a two tier dungeon system....synced(normal) and minimum ilevel synced (hard). Normal sync is easymode and grants just normal rewards gear/tomes etc. And Hard ilevel synced is hard mode...as nobody in the party despite having savage BiS can outdo the content. The lower you sync your level...the greater the rewards and the more rare. i.e. glamour mats, glamour gear, rare gathering mats, rare crafting mats, gil, tome bonuses.

There is a third nuclear option which I would love is dungeon modifiers or transmuters that are granted like Eureka Orthos style...but when you open a boss chest you get a modifier.
i.e. Every mob hit with AOE gives physical vuln, no jumping, 25% less healing potency, -10% accuracy, -10% run speed, immunities disabled(tank invulns, arms length, even Inner Release knockback immune), reprisal-feint-addle disabled, 20% more incoming damage. etc...etc...etc..

So every boss that you down makes the dungeon more harder...but increases your loot rewards and tome bonus. Those that work well together are rewarded...those that don't....well....theres always Normal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sqwall

No....I don't want something nerfed...that doesn't need nerfed.

Try savage or ultimate....WAR is fine.

---

I mean yeah I agree, BW is fine in single Target. I'd say Nascent Flash is where the balance gets iffy in that content.
But in the context of both I don't see why we coulnd't just move BW to healing per GCD rather than per target, it be a lot more manageable overall and have no impact on higher raiding.
I've said this multiple times but I don't think its possible to balance around Bloodwhetting in AOE at all. The ammount of shit you'd have to throw into the mix to justify its heal output is nonsensical, you'd also basically be forced to give GNB, DRK and PLD their own bloodhwettings which isn't something anyone wants to see.

Personally I expect nothing to change because this game only ever balances around Week 1 Savage SPECIFICALLY and all other forms of content regardless of difficulty is intentionally discarded, but I really don't view this as ideal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Pretty much this. And they seemingly forgot this important point within 2 years.

Back in Stormblood Warrior's healing was limited by both beast gauge for Inner Beast and tank stance for both it and Equilibrium, not only a heavy restriction but also a dps loss.
Even in Shadowbringers, where most of the restrictions were lifted, Nascent Flash was still limited by your ability to do enough damage during the buff, which consequently limited it by how many high potency skills were available to you at that moment.

But somehow the knowledge about needing to restrict tank sustain vanished from the dev's collective memory with Endwalker.

---

It's why I will always say that removing tank stances was the dumbest thing they could have done for tanks.