Square Enix should retire the relic quests with Endwalker

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

So in other words, I don't wanna change a thing in how I play and still get relics for it.
That's literally what the current relic is.

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How is the literacy rate on this forum so bad? I swear you guys are just arguing against your schizophrenic delusions of the things I post, you're not even reading the contents.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

How is the literacy rate on this forum so bad? I swear you guys are just arguing against your schizophrenic delusions of the things I post, you're not even reading the contents.

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So if there's no relic, do you not do what you wanna do? You said you like it because you can do whatever content you choose. How is that different with or without a relic?

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

So if there's no relic, do you not do what you wanna do? You said you like it because you can do whatever content you choose. How is that different with or without a relic?

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The relic gives me a medium to long term goal to work towards and I can contribute to it by playing the things I like. Logging in and having a daily plan of things I want to do just affects that day, a relic stretches that out to a few days or weeks.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Perhaps some players don't.

Those who want to change how they play to get the relic had options to do that.

Again, we run into the difficulty of players having different ideas about what a relic is. Some only see it as fun glamour, others see it as a symbol of effort.

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I personally think we already have enough participation medals.
But this, like everything else I say, is my opinion. I get it that others may have different mindsets but that doesn't change my opinion.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The relic gives me a medium to long term goal to work towards and I can contribute to it by playing the things I like. Logging in and having a daily plan of things I want to do just affects that day, a relic stretches that out to a few days or weeks.

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You and I have very different definitions of medium to long term. I don't think something you can complete at the same time as your weekly tomes adds anything to my gaming experience.

But hey, glad you're enjoying the game and getting borderline free handouts.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The relic gives me a medium to long term goal to work towards and I can contribute to it by playing the things I like. Logging in and having a daily plan of things I want to do just affects that day, a relic stretches that out to a few days or weeks.

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2 hours of hunt trains sure is a lot to "work towards" lmao

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

2 hours of hunt trains sure is a lot to "work towards" lmao

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2 hours is generous too. If you do them back to back, you can finish it in 3 trains (if one is SHB due to instances) which you can do in an hour.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

This time we each had the choice to make the farm something fun to our individual tastes but evidently makes the process less satisfying to those who need to feel like they were forced to be satisfied or who automatically choose efficiency over fun for the sake of getting their reward faster.

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And those people absolutely confuse me. Chosing to do something you don't like because it's faster, and then complaining that it was too short is so strange.
It's like they want SE to put up guard rails to keep them from burning themselves out on the game because they have no self control other than getting their rewards as soon as possible regardless of any amount of enjoyment.
The new technique probably needs work on the amount of tomes needed but being able to do any level cap content and making some progress is great.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

2 hours is generous too. If you do them back to back, you can finish it in 3 trains (if one is SHB due to instances) which you can do in an hour.

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I remembered clearing all 19 relics within 10-12 days of semi-afking (yep, playing like a true XIV player lol) at major city aetheryte every steps & only tabbing into game when the hunt discord notifies me. I guess the upside is I can double duty while I work my irl job in another window? Lmao.

Even if I want to prolong it by omitting Hunt Trains at all, clearing all daily roulettes will take me at least 39 days (ignoring MSR & Frontline) not including the causality gained from new player bonus, WT (if you even pick that 500 tome), or running the EW ARs for coins in those time & the weekly NR tokens. So that’s uhh… two full rotation of roulettes for 1 relic step? Lol

This just pales in comparison to any older relic steps. Even macro crafting splendor relics are far more engaging than even this within the same expansion.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

I personally think we already have enough participation medals.
But this, like everything else I say, is my opinion. I get it that others may have different mindsets but that doesn't change my opinion.

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It's those participation medals that drive players interest in content.

Past or present, the relic was nothing more than a participation medal.

Savage mount? Participation medal.

Ultimate weapon? Participation medal.

Until players learn to value what they do more than what they get, rewards are just participation medals.

The gaming industry learned a long time ago that the average MMO player does not appreciate a game that hands out medals for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.

They remain in PvP because it drives the competition aspect. PvE content is rarely meant to be competitive outside of organized tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I remembered clearing all 19 relics within 10-12 days of semi-afking (yep, playing like a true XIV player lol) at major city aetheryte every steps & only tabbing into game when the hunt discord notifies me. I guess the upside is I can double duty while I work my irl job in another window? Lmao.

Even if I want to prolong it by omitting Hunt Trains at all, clearing all daily roulettes will take me at least 39 days (ignoring MSR & Frontline) not including the causality gained from new player bonus, WT (if you even pick that 500 tome), or running the EW ARs for coins in those time & the weekly NR tokens. So that’s uhh… two full rotation of roulettes for 1 relic step? Lol

This just pales in comparison to any older relic steps. Even macro crafting splendor relics are far more engaging than even this within the same expansion.

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And yet you could have decided "I will do The Dead Ends 15 times, Storm's Crown EX 20 times, P8S 10 times to complete this stage of a relic". Earned tomestones through normal play of other content? Spend it on other things like crafting mats or Rains so they aren't available to use toward the relic.

But you didn't. Instead, you opted for the efficient way to get your tomestones as fast as possible.

What do you think it says to others when you state you prefer a grind, you were given the option to grind, and yet you did things the "easy" way?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

[…]And yet you could have decided "I will do The Dead Ends 15 times, Storm's Crown EX 20 times, P8S 10 times to complete this stage of a relic". Earned tomestones through normal play of other content? Spend it on other things like crafting mats or Rains so they aren't available to use toward the relic.

But you didn't. Instead, you opted for the efficient way to get your tomestones as fast as possible.

What do you think it says to others when you state you prefer a grind, you were given the option to grind, and yet you did things the "easy" way?

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What do you think that I did when ShB relic asked for 15 Loathsome memories that you can farm either from 15 clears of CT raid or from 15 clears of CLL within BSF?

I did the latter.

I could’ve picked the former. It’s guaranteed 3 memories vs 1 potential memory because Echo & the gain ratio fix was not a thing back then. But I did it anyway. What do you think people say to me when I admitted this?

I don’t need to switch up my daily routine to get EW relic. But if I do the same to any older expac relic, I won’t ever get any of those steps done. There’s a difference between these two. One doesn’t require you to make the commitment to change your pace. The other requires a semblance of choice to make your progress.

Again, I am NOT asking the steps to be EASY or HARD. Even though none of the relics were even hard to begin with. They just require you to make the effort to switch a varied degree of your routine to work for it. EW doesn’t do that to you. If you’ve been doing roulettes since base 6.0? Congrats, that’s all you need to do! What a way to cut corner!

What I personally liked from ShB relics was the fact they gave us the REAL choice on how we would to approach some of the steps. Take bitter memories step as an example, pick your poison: let daily leveling and lucky lv60 capstone roulette fill your inventory, or spam Antsytower, or go into BSF? IMHO they should learn from that model.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's those participation medals that drive players interest in content.

Past or present, the relic was nothing more than a participation medal.

Savage mount? Participation medal.

Ultimate weapon? Participation medal.

Until players learn to value what they do more than what they get, rewards are just participation medals.

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If the previous ones were participation rewards, we wouldn't be hearing square patting their backs over the completion rate of the current ones.

A participation reward is something you can get with little effort. Essentially it's celebrating mediocrity.

Honestly if they continue down this route, I would suggest doing 2 relics. One slightly worst one that you can get the easy way. Then a better one that requires more of a grind in something like exploration content. Maybe even make the harder one dyeable like how savage vs normal raids are.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

We need to get you some english lessons asap my man. There is no way in hell that's what you got from me saying I like playing the content I like even if it's not technically the fastest way.

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Is that all you have as an argument is to insult people and tell them to "learn English" if they don't agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

Is that all you have as an argument is to insult people and tell them to "learn English" if they don't agree with you.

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When people keep responding to me with "So what you're saying is [Thing I never said]."
It definitely calls into question their reading comprehension. I had to double check and it looks like you've also been guilty of this multiple times in this thread of telling me "you're literally saying" and then folowing it with something I didn't even say.

Maybe actually read the contents of posts before responding to your own delusions of what you think they're saying.

Mao still thinkings people little bits crazy for wantings the grindings. Mao loves doing quests where each part has own separate meaning and when combined, tell funs story. Skyscale quest long since been done by Mao in GW2 but Mao still has giggles rememberings each part Mao did. Mao skyscale is Mao little buddy and Mao treasures hims always.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

When you finished a relic from previous expansions, you at least felt something.

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Mostly relief that the RNG bullsh!t was over?

Because grinding old, outdated content somehow gave you a sense of pride and accomplishment?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Mostly relief that the RNG bullsh!t was over?

Because grinding old, outdated content somehow gave you a sense of pride and accomplishment?

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Surely that depends on when you were doing the relic, no? It wasn't old, outdated content when the relic was current.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Surely that depends on when you were doing the relic, no? It wasn't old, outdated content when the relic was current.

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Multiple relic steps had you doing old content to keep the old world "fresh and populated".

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Multiple relic steps had you doing old content to keep the old world "fresh and populated".

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And how many steps, out of a relic process, do you believe that was? ARR was all current. HW had some ARR content, but I wouldn't call ARR old/outdated in HW. Stb was self-contained in Eureka. Shb was the only one that you could argue, maybe, as they had you going back to HW areas to do FATES, or doing one time grinds for HW/Stb Raids/FATES. Everything else was optional and you could either do "older" content or obtain in the current content.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Multiple relic steps had you doing old content to keep the old world "fresh and populated".

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More effectively as well because the roulette earns you the currency/resource exponentially faster. Players probably already have it by the time the patch drops. Seems like a great way to nerf the effect former relics had.

But the theme of XIV now is to respect your time. In fact let's respect it so much that players barely have anything to do and go play other games.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Again, I am NOT asking the steps to be EASY or HARD. Even though none of the relics were even hard to begin with. They just require you to make the effort to switch a varied degree of your routine to work for it. EW doesn’t do that to you. If you’ve been doing roulettes since base 6.0? Congrats, that’s all you need to do! What a way to cut corner!

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So unless someone else is forcing you to do specific content, what you get means nothing to you?

Okay. It's not the way that everyone chooses to assign value, though.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

If the previous ones were participation rewards, we wouldn't be hearing square patting their backs over the completion rate of the current ones.

A participation reward is something you can get with little effort. Essentially it's celebrating mediocrity.

Honestly if they continue down this route, I would suggest doing 2 relics. One slightly worst one that you can get the easy way. Then a better one that requires more of a grind in something like exploration content. Maybe even make the harder one dyeable like how savage vs normal raids are.

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Participation rewards are something you get for participating, regardless of your performance compared to the others that were participating. The effort can be greater or smaller but it doesn't change the reward.

Someone could go back through the ARR and HW relics doing everything in groups, letting others put in all the effort, and they will still get their relics for participating in what was needed.

There was nothing hard about what players were asked to do. It was at worst tedious.

I'd be fine if they started adding different relics for different content difficulty. What i'd love to see is one that requires true exploration and discovery (getting special components to drop off open world mobs or hidden in random chests, etc.). Unfortunately the game doesn't seem to be designed to accommodate that sort of content.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So unless someone else is forcing you to do specific content, what you get means nothing to you?

Okay. It's not the way that everyone chooses to assign value, though.

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Glad we can at least agree on something then! It should’ve been clear to them that any content should not be designed to appeal everybody and I hope they will learn from this iteration & its pushbacks (lmao fat hope but one can dream)—especially when the very content is already an OPTIONAL GRIND unlike MSQ.

This guy has been my favorite poster lately. I laugh every single time.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So unless someone else is forcing you to do specific content, what you get means nothing to you?

Okay. It's not the way that everyone chooses to assign value, though.


Participation rewards are something you get for participating, regardless of your performance compared to the others that were participating. The effort can be greater or smaller but it doesn't change the reward.

Someone could go back through the ARR and HW relics doing everything in groups, letting others put in all the effort, and they will still get their relics for participating in what was needed.

There was nothing hard about what players were asked to do. It was at worst tedious.

I'd be fine if they started adding different relics for different content difficulty. What i'd love to see is one that requires true exploration and discovery (getting special components to drop off open world mobs or hidden in random chests, etc.). Unfortunately the game doesn't seem to be designed to accommodate that sort of content.

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Actually thinking about it it would be impossible to do the ARR/HW relics without any effort. Even if you are in a party carrying you for every step the Fate drop steps would be impossible due to the need to actually be involved in the Fate for credit. So there is a bare minimum amount of effort you would need to put in. Sorry if I sound a bit pedantic but it simply isn't true you could AFK in a group and come out with an ARR/HW relic in a day or two. I am pretty sure looking at it the only relic that is fully a participation award is EW as you could probably get people to 3 man a dungeon, especially next expansion when it all becomes poetics.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

When people keep responding to me with "So what you're saying is [Thing I never said]."
It definitely calls into question their reading comprehension. I had to double check and it looks like you've also been guilty of this multiple times in this thread of telling me "you're literally saying" and then folowing it with something I didn't even say.

Maybe actually read the contents of posts before responding to your own delusions of what you think they're saying.

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I can say the same about reading comprehension with you but I'd rather not throw around baseless insults.

I explained why I said "so what you're saying is" and the only explanation I got from you was "I can log in and have a daily plan", which isn't exclusive to the relic when it's content you've been doing all along anyways (potentially).

Me saying the relic is achievable without changing your game style isn't an insult towards you. It's simply me voicing displeasure with the current relic system.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

When you finished a relic from previous expansions, you at least felt something.

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Yea I felt the hope that the devs will stop with the boring grinds and instead give me the pretty glam quicker.

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Originally Posted by PetThisMiqo

Square Enix has attempted to innovate the relic weapon questline for the vast majority of the playerbase during Endwalker but despite the increased happiness of the majority of players the loud minority has angrily protested and even threatened Square Enix over the changes. More players than ever can complete and enjoy a relic weapon and the hateful toxic minority can't stand it.

Square Enix should retaliate by giving the toxic minority exactly what they want. Discontinue the relic weapon quests after Endwalker. The relic weapons have become an elitist status that players who have far too much time use to belittle and mock the more casual playerbase with. Replace the relics with tome weapons that have exquisite designs that the majority of the players will enjoy and appreciate. The no-lifing elitists that want to change the relic weapons into an eternal grind with seethe but this is what they deserve. They have earned this with their poor behavior. Reward your faithful and supporting playerbase while punishing the loud vocal minority. Bless your loyal followers who are grateful and rain punishment down upon those who antagonize you.

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Relic + Elitist = Omegalul

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I don’t need to switch up my daily routine to get EW relic. But if I do the same to any older expac relic, I won’t ever get any of those steps done. There’s a difference between these two. One doesn’t require you to make the commitment to change your pace. The other requires a semblance of choice to make your progress.

Again, I am NOT asking the steps to be EASY or HARD. Even though none of the relics were even hard to begin with. They just require you to make the effort to switch a varied degree of your routine to work for it. EW doesn’t do that to you. If you’ve been doing roulettes since base 6.0? Congrats, that’s all you need to do! What a way to cut corner!

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I mentioned it earlier in the topic, and I'm going to echo this again. It was never about the content being hard or a grind, it was something to break up the daily monotony and get you to do something else.

If we bring Variant Dungeons into this, yes, you could in theory run it 38 times for 1 weapon, but it is wholly ineffective to do. Same with Eureka Orthos. It means, once you have completed the content, you aren't likely to go back in. However, what about if it guaranteed a drop of an item you needed for the relic? Maybe Criterion drops an extra mat to encourage players to try it out. Suddenly, you have more incentive to go into these things and keep the content alive longer.

I also don't see why we couldn't incorporate the DoL/DoH jobs either. Allow you to buy mats from scrips for example. Or, maybe allow the acquisition through PvP via wolf marks or maybe even RNG drops. Bring back the tribal quests as an avenue for getting the items and the list can go on.

If you want to have the relic be available no matter what you do, then you need to encourage people to do those things. By our very nature, humans will prefer the easiest, quickest route to get something, but we will also prefer doing thing we enjoy. Give people the incentive to branch out and potentially do things they might not have done before. That should be the goal of the relic, getting you to do parts of the game you might not otherwise try.

Why are people trying to argue that the relic quest grind was bad? I never heard anyone argue this until they became instant gratification. I did Bozja and Eureka in 2022 and they were thriving. The story that they didn't have a base is a lie. And relics just became equivalent to buying off the MB.

Why don't we make Ultimate weapons available for comedy tomes? Hmm? After all no one wants to grind them.

Imb4 the essay of how we just don't get it because tomeifying any other gear or Glam "breaks the game" because that type of content keeps people busy between patches and offers a unique experience that rewards you for dedication or some nonsense. Eureka doesnt do that??? People are arguing for absolutely no reason. The new relic grind could have 99.9% engagement, it's still one of the dumbest ideas in EW.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yea I felt the hope that the devs will stop with the boring grinds and instead give me the pretty glam quicker.

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You felt the sweet release of death.



But then you get revived and you start hating yourself all over again

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Why are people trying to argue that the relic quest grind was bad? I never heard anyone argue this until they became instant gratification. I did Bozja and Eureka in 2022 and they were thriving. The story that they didn't have a base is a lie. And relics just became equivalent to buying off the MB.

Why don't we make Ultimate weapons available for comedy tomes? Hmm? After all no one wants to grind them.

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Where have you been? Theres always talk about certain glrinds being bad heck some of the base ARR steps like the book part have been memed and hated for its awfulness.

And some of the one time steps with the Resistance Relics are also been discussed how atrocius it is. Its just that they went too far into the other spectrum where people have an issur with EW relics

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Where have you been? Theres always talk about certain glrinds being bad heck some of the base ARR steps like the book part have been memed and hated for its awfulness.

And some of the one time steps with the Resistance Relics are also been discussed how atrocius it is. Its just that they went too far into the other spectrum where people have an issur with EW relics

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My point is why does their whining, even if it happened, only affect this grind while we still have others??? The devs were just too busy or lazy and they didn't make an exploratory zone. We all know this. DawnTrail is going to have an exploratory zone. The grind will likely return. Trying to frame it like the original concept of relics was toxic or had some kind of downside is a waste when various elements of the game (island sanctuary, gold saucer, triple triad, gathering, crafting, PvP, savage, extremes, Ultimates) also have their own unique grind and currency that drive different modes of participation and play. Why not just tomeify everything?? People are arguing to argue.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So unless someone else is forcing you to do specific content, what you get means nothing to you?

Okay. It's not the way that everyone chooses to assign value, though.

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I feel the general sentiment among a lot of people who want something a bit more is that if it's something specific that we didn't choose for ourselves, the game is presenting us with a challenge to tackle. If there's something the game is putting us up against, there's a bit more weight that we feel our effort has. I feel like that's a trait a lot of gamers have. Game sets out a challenge. Challenge accepted.

Which is why a good path forward would probably be two paths. One with specific content the game wants you tackle or the option to just buy everything with tomes. It would satisfy their numbers on people participating and allow players who want a more structured system to be able to choose to go that path. Or people could choose to mix and match.

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Originally Posted by Xeronia

Actually thinking about it it would be impossible to do the ARR/HW relics without any effort. Even if you are in a party carrying you for every step the Fate drop steps would be impossible due to the need to actually be involved in the Fate for credit. So there is a bare minimum amount of effort you would need to put in. Sorry if I sound a bit pedantic but it simply isn't true you could AFK in a group and come out with an ARR/HW relic in a day or two. I am pretty sure looking at it the only relic that is fully a participation award is EW as you could probably get people to 3 man a dungeon, especially next expansion when it all becomes poetics.

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I never said the player could be totally AFK yet that minimum effort was still getting the same reward as the player that was going all out. It's still just a participation reward in that case.

If credit received was based on individual effort and not group effort, then things would move away from being participation rewards.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I mentioned it earlier in the topic, and I'm going to echo this again. It was never about the content being hard or a grind, it was something to break up the daily monotony and get you to do something else.

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If you feel the need to do something else, can't you just choose to do something else? Do you have to have someone else give you a reason?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I feel the general sentiment among a lot of people who want something a bit more is that if it's something specific that we didn't choose for ourselves, the game is presenting us with a challenge to tackle. If there's something the game is putting us up against, there's a bit more weight that we feel our effort has. I feel like that's a trait a lot of gamers have. Game sets out a challenge. Challenge accepted.

Which is why a good path forward would probably be two paths. One with specific content the game wants you tackle or the option to just buy everything with tomes. It would satisfy their numbers on people participating and allow players who want a more structured system to be able to choose to go that path. Or people could choose to mix and match.

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I understand the desire to meet a challenge.

What I don't understand is the thinking that the challenge is only valid if it is set by someone else instead of setting it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I understand the desire to meet a challenge.

What I don't understand is the thinking that the challenge is only valid if it is set by someone else instead of setting it yourself.

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When it comes to relics. The player doesn't have a choice. It's set before them by the dev team. Alot (myself included) were highly disappointed by manderville steps.

Don't get me wrong, love me hildi storyline but what I can't stand is how simple the steps are otherwise.

I do get your point though..I really do and there's lots of challenges in the game if you just look but the challenge the old relics set to the player made you feel like you accomplished something.

Now it's...ok i can lazily get 1500 causality a step..no need to put effort in. No feeling like you accomplished anything.

I personally didn't like eureka or bozja at all but I still feel like I accomplished something every step of the way

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I never said the player could be totally AFK yet that minimum effort was still getting the same reward as the player that was going all out. It's still just a participation reward in that case.

If credit received was based on individual effort and not group effort, then things would move away from being participation rewards.


If you feel the need to do something else, can't you just choose to do something else? Do you have to have someone else give you a reason?


I understand the desire to meet a challenge.

What I don't understand is the thinking that the challenge is only valid if it is set by someone else instead of setting it yourself.

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OK what are your top 3 things to do during time between expansions?