So your definition of filler is "the rotation that has no failure state"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Respectfully, that's not a definition of "filler". Filler is that thing we all kind of know what is, but don't have a clear definition. What we can do, though, is see if a given definition DOESN'T work. Yours does not. Example:
GNB 1-2-3 can be performed in the wrong order, such as 1-2-2 or 1-3-3. These would be failure states. You can't spam Royal Authority, as that would be a failure state. So your definition means any 1-2-3 combo is not filler. BUT, 1-2-3 combos are considered by everyone to be filler, thus your definition does not hold.
I think a better definition is one used by the Balance guides, which can be worded as "Actions that occur outside of burst/mini-burst" or "Actions without CDs used in a standard rotation". If you rolled your face across your keyboard, which actions remain not on CD once you're done? What is the correct rotation using those remaining buttons? THAT is your filler.
By this definition, GNB's filler would be "GNB's 1-2-3 combo and using Burst Strike to not overcap Powder Gauge". That is GNB's filler. The No Mercy window is obviously not part of the filler. There's some parsing around whether Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone constitutes filler or not, but at least that's a more useful definition than "no fail state".
Fire 4 is part of filler: https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs...arget-rotation
The basic BLM filler is Blizard 3, Blizard 4, Paradox, Fire 3, Fire 4, Fire 4, Fire 4, Paradox, Fire 4, Fire 4, Fire 4, Despair, refreshing Thunder 3 as necessary and not overcapping on Xenoglossy.
The basic SMN filler is Summon Titan, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Summon Garuda, Gemshine, Gemshine, Gemshine, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Summon Ifrit, Gemshine, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Astral Flow, Ruin 3, Ruin 4...or something thereabouts.
RDM's basic filler is variable in reaction to Stone/Fire Ready procs, but in a general sense would be Jolt->Thunder, Jolt->Aero, repeat until burst ready, and substitute Stone/Fire for Jolt as procs allow, and swap Aero and Thunder as mana requires. This is why people consider RDM to be very easy to pick up because the filler is really straightforward (and so is the burst).
Bahamut, Pheonix, Enkindle, Energy Drain, Fester, are all considered cooldowns, and so aren't really a part of filler.
Though we can argue about the extent of filler, "Thing you do when everything is on CD" is probably the general definition that most people subscribe to. "no fail state" is not a possible definition of filler, as it would mean that even basic 1-2-3 combos, which everyone recognizes as filler, aren't filler under that definition.
And you really need to stop saying "aspected ruin 3". There's no such thing presently. It's one of those things people say because it makes their argument sound stronger, but again, "aspected Fire 1" isn't a proper definition for Fire 4, and no one would accept it as one. You can call it "Gemshine", but stop calling it "aspected ruin 3". Unless you're ready to start calling Fire 4 "aspected Fire 1".
I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!
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09-21-2023, 10:40 AMRenathras
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09-21-2023, 10:55 AMOgruMogru
Blm filler are thundercloud procs, xeno and paradox while you wait for mp ticks in UI not... their entire rotation lmao
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09-21-2023, 11:11 AMRein_eon_OsborneIn casual content where dps checks are either nihil or incredibly low, doing shitty dps really doesn’t matter. They will still clear that eventually. So why care?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeastria
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09-21-2023, 11:11 AMRenathrasGenerally, "filler rotation" is the term; yes, that would include the entire standard rotation. That's how filler is normally defined.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
And procs can't be part of "filler" by definition since they aren't always available to fill with.
An example would be PLD having a filler rotation of 1-2-3-Atonement-A-A-Holy Spirit. That's their "entire rotation lmao", but it also happens to be their filler.
Tell me, what would you define PLD's "filler" as? If "entire rotation" isn't allowed, what's the "filler"?
It's not Atonement, since you can't use that until you complete a 1-2-3 combo. While Holy Spirit CAN be used AS a filler unbuffed, this is a DPS loss. So what is PLD's "filler", in your own words? I would like to know that so I can determine what BLM's "filler" is by your definition.
WAR's filler rotation is 1-2-3 (Storm's Path) with Storm's Eye to refresh your self-buff. That's its "entire rotation lmao". "entire rotation" excluding burst kind of IS the definition of filler.
Right, but Snow's definition was:Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
I would say (as I did above) that the Primals and their Gemshine/Astral Flow would constitute the filler, just like BLM's B3, B4, Pdox, F3, F4, F4, F4, Pdox, F4, F4, F4, Desp is its filler. Laryzur felt that there was "basically no filler" since ShB SMN's filler was Ruin 3, and you only use one of those per minute (occasionally 2 to reset or due to spell speed shenanigans), but I would include the rotational Primal "mini-phases" as filler for the purposes of this definition. They are the parallel to, say, WAR/PLD/etc's 1-2-3 rotation and associated stuff (like Atonement/Holy Spirit on PLD).Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Though I would argue that a lot of players find the Primal summons more satisfying than Royal Authority.
Again, "fail state" is not a valid definition of filler. Besides which, there are fail states. Start casting Ruby Rite and have to interrupt due to movement. That's a fail state. Cast two Ruin 3s at the end of the minute and drop Ruin 4. That's a fail state. "no fail state" seems like a very unworkable definition for the concept of "filler".Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I don't think this is really true. WAR dropping Storm's Eye or WHM dropping Dia are technically fail states. WAR pressing 1-2-2 or 1-3 or overcapping on Rage are fail states. And those are just their rotational fail states. Failing to heal unavoidable damage and having players KO is also a fail state. The issue is that "fail state" can be defined...very broadly. Even if we're just talking rotational, though, Healers and (moreso, generally) Tanks also have fail states. The main difference is that their fail states are going to be less detrimental to DPS than damage dealer fail states. Which...kinda makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
Again, bad definition, but even there, SMN does have fail states.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I'm not trying to be pedantic but...because it's not ruin 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
Is Atonement on Paladin Fast Blade? or Riot Blade? or Royal Authority? Is it "Fast Blade in all but name"? It has different use conditions, and it does have strategic gameplay, albeit thin. Same with SMN. People generally don't DO IT, but say you pop Ifrit and suddenly realize you're about to have to move. You can cast your Ruin 3 (shorter cast) and then use your minute's Ruin 4 (for the full movement GCD) to move. Or if you use Ruby Rite x2 but then have to stay at a distance from the boss (had this happen with ZodEx when he does his diagonal dash across the screen - bad time to use Ifrit's charge). You can 100% push that by filling with Ruin 4 and Ruin 3 and THEN, after the mechanic, use your Ifrit charge/slam combo. Go into Titan and use 1-2-1-2- realize you're going to need movement for GCD 6 or so from now; fill in with Ruin 3 before finishing up Titan. Again, people generally don't DO IT, but you can move your absolute filler spell (Ruin 3) anywhere in your rotation except between Ifrit's charge and slam specifically.
And for the love of god, not everything needs to build gauge. I feel Job Gauge additions were a curse the game has never fully recovered from.
Disagree. I don't quite agree with Zeastria that we explicitly need Jobs for people not good at mmos (though that's not a terrible idea), but Jobs of all kinds of difficulty levels and damage types (DoTs, gauges, upkeep buffs, flexible rotations like SMN and PLD, etc) is 100% something that should exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiraZ
Current SMN should exist period. -
09-21-2023, 11:16 AMRenathrasI think this is the problem, though:Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
People hate on new SMN when what they really hate is old SMN being gone. Then make absolute statements like the above "current SMN should not exist" which aren't defensible.
Being upset old SMN is gone is absolutely understandable. I do sincerely hope they add a new Caster with old SMN's type of gameplay.
...but that's no argument against CURRENT SMN being a good Job.
Current SMN is a very well designed Job. It's one of the few in the game that "read your tooltips" is actually good advice (instead of "read an online guide") to learn how to play it.
This, on the other hand, I think is just wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
While difficulty is different for different people...no, there are hard Jobs in this game. There are some Jobs that have pretty high skill floors and very wide ranges between a 1% and 99%. Generally speaking, a Job's difficulty can be roughly approximated by the width between 1% and 99%, or 25% and 75%. The wider that bar is, when compared to the other Jobs within the role, the harder the Job is. Yes, there are some hard Jobs in this game. There are ALSO hard to optimize Jobs. RDM is not a hard Job, but it IS hard to optimize.
"There are no hard jobs" is a weird flex, but isn't reflective of reality.
Not everyone did Titan Hardmode and got Relics when that was current content. Not to mention the game itself was far more lenient. Titan Hard back then, if it was released today, would be considered a braindead Trial by modern standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
This. /threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus
I would love to believe this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
But it's not true.
How do I know? Every discussion of healers insisting that they all need to be harder, even SGE which was just introduced with the playstyle it has right now. The people saying outright that new SMN itself is a badly designed Job and must be changed no matter what. People saying new SMN is hurting RDM and BLM representation (RDM moreso).
Those arguments wouldn't go away just because old SMN was still in the game.
I very much DO wish to believe if new SMN was introduced as a new Job, people would be fine with it. But I don't think so. I think a lot of the people complaining about it being too easy, it harming RDM's representation, it being "badly designed", and at least some people (if not including you) arguing about fail states; I think those people would still be harping on new SMN even if it had been introduced as a stand alone Job. -
09-21-2023, 11:21 AMOgruMogru
So you're just incorrectly substituting the word "rotation" with "filler"? Quote from the blm balance page you linked above says "In order to get enough MP to sustain the standard rotation, two MP ticks are required. For this purpose, at least two spells are needed in Umbral Ice to act as “filler” spells." So why would they need to differentiate between rotation and filler if they were interchangeable? Can't answer your question on PLD as I don't play it but I'm sure someone else will chomp down on that bait and correct you.
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09-21-2023, 11:24 AMSupersnow845
Filler doesn’t have to not have a fail state, SMN just feels like all filler because it has no fail state and it’s burst cannot be made to fail by doing the actual filler wrong
This is to say nothing of the core point about how the primals get reduced to filler that amounts to casting aspected ruin 3 and then the demis which are technically the burst don’t even care about the primals and they are also just about spamming aspected ruin 3 -
09-21-2023, 11:25 AMRenathrasAh, I see you didn't answer my question:Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
...because you don't play PLD. Fair enough, so let's try something else:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
What would you define WAR's filler as?
Or MNK's?
Or SAM's?
Do you play any Jobs other than BLM, and what would you define their fillers as?
If you don't...then all I can say is your definition is wrong and you need to try some other Jobs so you can see why. I have dabbled with every Job in the game and know the fillers for about half of them. My definition is consistent across them. So tell me what you define the fillers on for the Jobs you play other than BLM and we'll work from there?
EDIT:
Uh...that......doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
"filler doesn't have to not have a fail state"
"SMN having no fail state means it's all filler".
You can't say filler is NOT defined by fail state, but then use no fail state as a definition right after. Regardless, it doesn't feel like filler to me, so now we're in absolute subjective territory.
You might notice I was using objective metrics to define filler, which is how you have to define things. Filler isn't a matter of "feel', otherwise the term has no meaning.
.
What I'm trying to get at is "What are practical NON-Summoner cases of filler (for the purpose of definitions) to you guys", that way I can see if SMN's rotation actually fits your definition of filler or not.
That is, I need to see what you guys consider "filler" in other Jobs to see if that matches (a) the general community definition of filler (e.g. includes 1-2-3 basic rotations) and (b) how that would apply to SMN since...I think some people are a BIIIIT of a TAAAD (or more than a bit and more than a tad) biased against SMN and not looking at it fairly... <_< -
09-21-2023, 11:34 AMSupersnow845
Okay I’ll present this in the simplest way possible
Garuda/titan/ifrit are the filler, they consist of doing exactly the same thing, casting aspected ruin 3, the slight different in mobility is functionally meaningless, Bahamut and pheonix and the burst and sub burst, they consist of doing……..guess what casting aspected ruin 3, when the burst is exactly the same as the filler it all feels like filler, and it all feels even worse because you physically cannot do SMN wrong, it has no fail state, that doesn’t define it being filler, it’s the fact that a rotation with no fail state feels like filler because you aren’t building towards anything -
09-21-2023, 11:36 AMRenathrasNonono, that wasn't my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please? -
09-21-2023, 11:40 AMLittleImpI haven't actually read the rest of this conversation, but I saw PLD questions so I'll give my 2c.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
'Filler' is context dependent when talking about PLD.
It can broadly refer to all GCD's executed between 60's burst phases, or can refer to the additional GCD's executed during FoF that are NOT blades/goring if burst is specifically being discussed.
PLD's filler would be roughly analogous to the crayon eating phase of SMNs rotation.
This is not strictly true; Hardcasting unbuffed HS is gainful situationally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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09-21-2023, 11:41 AMSupersnow845I mean it doesn’t change anything you just want it as a cheap gatcha because you still think I explicitly define filler as lack of a fail state when that’s just part of why SMN feels like it’s all fillerQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
But I’ll indulge you, filler is the repetitive actions that you do outside of the burst window or a sub burst window, they may or may not have a fail state -
09-21-2023, 11:46 AMRenathrasWell, that's something, and I do appreciate that (also HS, but I was trying to be general/simplistic for people). But doesn't well answer the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleImp
What would YOU define as filler for the Jobs you play/are familiar with that are NOT Summoner?
You guys are eating my post limit by giving not-quite answers, but I'm trying to make shorter posts since people have asked for it. I hope it's appreciated and good faith discussion (rather than evasion) can be had, otherwise I'll have to go back.
It's not a "cheap gotcha".Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I DO suspect your evasiveness may be due to if you have to define it for other Jobs, I can point out that you're being unfair to SMN. That would be a reason for you to refuse to answer the question. But no, you didn't indulge me, and I'm not trying to figure out that to rub your nose in it. I want to work out what you see as filler in other Jobs. I didn't ask for a definition of filler.
What I asked for is EXAMPLES of filler from other Jobs so I can see what they have in common and try to work out a working definition of filler based on your own practical examples. It's not a "gotcha", I'm trying to figure out what you ACTUALLY see as filler abilities in other Jobs, so I can compare THOSE examples to SMN abilities to see which SMN abilities meet that same criteria.
EDIT: For example, if you DON'T consider Requiescat/Confetti/Swords to be "filler", then Searing Light/Summon Bahamut/Astral Impulse wouldn't be filler. If you consider the latter filler, then you must also consider the former filler. This is why I need to see PRACTICAL EXAMPLES and abilities, not a definition. :ENDEDIT
I'm going to try to assume you aren't acting in bad faith one more time by asking the question once more:
Would you please answer THAT question, not substitute in other questions you'd rather answer instead. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Once more:
Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?
Not a definition, what ABILITIES do you consider part of the filler of other, NOT-Summoner Jobs? (and, if you like, their rotational order, though that's less needed). -
09-21-2023, 11:54 AMSupersnow845
How about if you want explicit answers don’t edit your excessively long posts afterwords to add more context to what you want answered, I already struggle to give enough of a damn to even read your comments directed at me let alone hang on edits you make later
But whatever let’s use DNC, DNC’s filler is 1(2)3(4) standard step on CD with a few exceptions very close to the technical window or if you overcap on resources
DNC’s burst revolves around the technical window and dumping resources, DNC’s burst has 3 main failstates
1) you did technical wrong and didn’t get the max bonus
2) you didn’t save up resources so you aren’t using saber dance or fans in your burst you are resorting to spamming your filler
3) you desync your CD’s (devilment, flourish and standard step) so they fall outside of your burst
So your burst has failstates, it is a distinctly different rotation due to saber, tilana, flourish procs and starfall dance and your filler builds towards it while still having its own failstates
SMN meanwhile Bahamut and pheonix don’t care about the 3 primals, all 5 you end up spamming aspected ruin 3 with an oGCD and there is nothing you can do to actually break your rotation down, the worst you can do is interrupt a ruby ruin cast or maybe drop a ruin 4 -
09-21-2023, 11:57 AMZeastriaQuote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
Normal content is created for exactly that reason, it's made to be cleared by most players.
It's the same with job difficuilty.. you want easy/middle/hard and ffxiv do have this - with SMN beeing the easiest among them.
easy jobs --> it's an entry point for less experienced players into the game..
It didnt have to be SMN, they could have created a new job and it would serve the same purpose..
However SE choose to rework SMN and thats what we have atm.. -
09-21-2023, 11:58 AMOgruMogru
I'm only being specific with BLM because I'm not arrogant enough to claim expertise in other jobs. The purpose of fillers is to maintain consistent timing of a jobs main rotation to avoid it drifting out of alignment. It cannot just refer to a rotation as a whole otherwise they wouldn't be considered separate aspects.
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09-21-2023, 12:03 PMLittleImpThe simple answer is the actions taken that fall between between more rigid burst phases, which tend to fall at 1 or 2 minute intervals. Filler often has greater flexibility than other aspects of a jobs rotation; In SMN's case, it can reorder it's mini-phases. In PLD's case, you can heavily manipulate the way your atonements and DMHS fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The more complex answer is that it's highly dependent on the particular job you are talking about, and has unique community-accepted definitions in the case of each particular job. -
09-21-2023, 12:14 PMRenathrasI get you're mad at being pinned down, but please chill. I asked nicely MULTIPLE times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Okay, this is something to work with. So, DNC's filler, in your mind, includes Cascade, Fountain, Reverse Cascade, Fountainfall, and Standard Step on CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Fair?
What these actions seem to have in common is that they're direct damage actions where two of them don't have preconditions (though Fountain can be used incorrectly), two of them do but the preconditions are light (they require a proc from one of the former two), and one of them has a CD, but it's a very short CD, less than 60 seconds (you didn't include Flourish, so I'm using "less than 60 seconds" as a working category here). Probably the better way to say that is 30 seconds (inclusive) or less?
So it would be fair to say things with a CD of greater than 60 or more seconds (so 59 or less is filler, 60 or more is not), which aren't always readily available, and which you want to use together and maximize by using within the party burst window(s), and your filler builds towards, would basically be non-filler?
So in the case of SMN, Primals, Gemshine, Aastral Flow, and Ruin 3 would be filler by this definition.
Demis, Searing Light, Enkindle, Astral Flow (for Baha/Phoenix), Energy Drain/Siphon, Fester/Painflare, and Ruin 4 would not be filler, nor would Ruin 3 while under Bahamut or Phoenix.
Again, it's not "fail states", so that's irrelevant. I'm looking at what are filler and non-filler actions in your example, and applying them fairly to SMN by looking at comparable abilities. (Granted, I'd rather you use literally any Job OTHER THAN DNC [or BLM] since DNC has the proc business going on, but...)
.
Can you give examples of any other Jobs?
Did you disagree with my RDM definition of Jolt/Thunder/Jolt/Aero (replace Jolt with Stone/Fire as procs available) are filler actions, for example?
I didn't ask for expertise.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
I asked what you consider filler in other Jobs besides BLM. You don't need to be an expert to know how RDM works, for example. You CLEARLY don't for SMN, apparently.
You gave a definition there, "to maintain consistent timing of a jobs main rotation to avoid it drifting out of alignment"; pick ANY JOB IN THE GAME besides SMN or BLM and tell me which actions/abilities fit that definition. -
09-21-2023, 12:28 PMSupersnow845
^”i get you are mad at being pinned down” he says after I get annoyed you keep editing your comments to ask for more context later than get annoyed when people don’t see these edits and you do it in a post edit
The irony is truly delicious -
09-21-2023, 12:32 PMVentVanitasbeing immediately understandable doesn't make it an all around well designed job, or rather it shouldn't be the only determining factor. yes, it is a merit worth attributing to SMN, but I still feel like that is only circumstantial to how frictionless the whole job is with any of its systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I don't think it's well designed that Carbuncle could be cut from the kit altogether with little to no consequence. all it ends up doing is making Radiant Aegis tedious to use because carby keeps popping out of existence and I can only imagine it's because the dev team wants to limit the amount of entities a player can create.
I don't think it's well designed that Aetherflow is just there when now would have been the best time to tie them back to demi-summons so the chokehold they have on the rotation can feel at least a little more fluid or cohesive. in its current state it's nothing more than vestigial damage buttons giving the vague impression of a resource gauge. my thoughts for Ruin 4 are the exact same, it feels like it's just there because the dev team couldn't think of any other way to integrate it into the rotation.
I don't think demi-summons are well designed, because they're mostly just ShB demis made to be automated to disguise the fact that they didn't actually fix pet jank. furthermore, being flat cooldowns just makes the rotation unnecessarily rigid and it limits the design of the job for future changes.
I don't think gems are well designed, they don't last long enough for any implications of having to choose/order them to be meaningful, especially when one crit Akh Morn can render what little optimization there is to be had with gems moot. additionally, like everything else, they don't interact with anything. they don't have to for it to be an enjoyable mechanic, but in the context of everything else in the kit it only piles onto the problems of its systems being disconnected and just. there.
I know you didn't ask for it, but considering your reply I felt obligated to make a SMN related post that isn't just "old job good new rework bad." -
09-21-2023, 12:34 PMRenathrasThat's fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleImp
But that's also kinda my point.
Okay, I gave you the benefit of the doubt...Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
...and typed up a rebuttal here...
...but then deleted it. I'm trying to be good here, and I would like it if you would as well. Engage in good faith, and let's keep a good discussion going. You didn't comment on anything in the post itself, so I will say for the sake of argument you agreed with my definitions of filler and non-filler using your DNC example.
I'd like to try and get that nailed down a little better, though, so could you tell me the filler of some other Jobs you're familiar with?
What would you say RDM's filler rotation is? Any Tank's or Melee's? Thank you in advance. -
09-21-2023, 12:42 PMSupersnow845
Ren I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again the reason you don’t get the interaction you want is because of the way you post, you can have the best of intentions possible but the way you post, edit, reply to 56 people at once and then get angry when people miss context from your mammoth posts annoys people
Like in this example you did not make it clear in the slightest that you were specifically looking for examples of filler rather than an overarching definition of filler until after I had already read your post and started typing up a reply, then you act like I’m acting in bad faith because I didn’t read your edits……while I’m half way through writing a response to your comment
Do you see the problem here, I don’t want to argue this point with you any further. Not because I don’t think necessarily that your ideas are bad (though we both agree that we don’t agree on 95% of each others ideas) but because I’m sick of the way you post and the way you reply to people then always act like it’s everyone else’s fault
I’ll have an actual discussion with you sometime in the future if you can actually shorten your posts, not edit them to add 5 more points later and then act like it’s our fault we didn’t read those later points
Until then I’m really not interested -
09-21-2023, 12:44 PMAmiableApkalluSo, at least as far as I and my comment are concerned, the definition of "filler" is less important than what things actually are. There are actions that do not build up anything or towards anything, and that do not themselves have the feel of ending or finishing some sequence of actions. For SMN, that applies to Ruin III and most of the attuned Gemshine actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
So... If someone wants to include Ruin III in SMN's "filler," then it makes sense to me to also include most of the attuned Gemshine actions. If someone (pejoratively) refers to "aspected Ruin III," then I think I know what they mean. :shrug:
Along these same lines <insert vigorous waving of hands>, I care less what exactly defines a "easy job" versus a "hard job", and more that every job have a sufficiently low barrier of entry and yet still provide room for "skill expression" (or whatever people want to call it). -
09-21-2023, 01:03 PMOgruMogruAnd you clearly don't understand how BLM works if you use their entire rotation as an example for filler. I do not need to list off every other job ability in the game to point out your incorrect example of BLM filler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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09-21-2023, 01:11 PMAravell
Since the discussion has become entirely about SMN, and having been vocal about SMN not being great before, I'll just toss my 2 cents in.
SMN is a decent enough design, I just think it's unacceptable as a DPS job. If you took SMN's design and slapped it on a healer, I'd be ok with it. SMN's existence not only hurts the caster role, it also hurts the DPS role in general. The DPS role has only 1 job in combat, do damage, if you make that job as simple as possible, what else do they have to strive for? I get that people want a simple job to get into, but a simple job does not mean it has to have no growth available to it.
Let's look at RPR. It's a very simple job, the concept is simple and the rotation is simple, you can even choose to delay your positionals if you can't hit them. You can mash Enshroud the moment you hit 50 shroud gauge and you'd do fine, but if someone wants to hold gauge and do a double Enshroud during burst, they have that option available to them. SMN does not have that. SMN has no job-specific optimisation, you may be tempted to bring up that you can swap legos around for movement, but that's not job-specific optimisation, that's fight-specific optimisation. Every other DPS job has both types, SMN does not have job-specific optimisation, they only have very specific micro-optimisations to do, there is no point when you play SMN that you would suddenly be struck by an epiphany of "Oh, I should've been doing that instead!".
I believe that no DPS job should be so limited in growth opportunities. Every DPS job is already plenty simple to pick up and stumble through, we do not need one that you can stumble your way through to peak performance on. -
09-21-2023, 01:13 PMRenathras/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I really tried, folks.
EDIT: All that follows, in one chunk, unaltered.
This always happens.
Every single time.
I try to have a discussion in good faith, someone makes accusations, I continue to try in good faith, then the person makes more accusations, then I have to go through pages of thread to post specific posts, edit times, what was changed, etc to try and end that canard, but it's all just a red herring. It's all just a way for you, Snow, to derail the thread and not engage in good faith. You're wasting my post count - whether intentional or not - for a resistance to simply answer a question, even once it becomes apparent what the question is. And then you cap it off with a "I always tell you..." ignoring that this same thing goes in reverse: I always tell you that when you are evasive and when you won't answer questions asked and when you look for things in posts to try to avoid the topic, it looks like evasion and bad faith.
Yet here we are again, with me having to give a brief history of events in the thread to defend myself with the HOPE, vain as it always is, that it will (a) put the issue to bed so we can get back to talking about the actual topic (note the post above yours has NO EDITS but you refused to engage with it) and (b) that maybe the NEXT time you or someone else tries to do it, they'll think better and choose to engage the topic in good faith instead of looking for excuses not to...which I know is a vain hope because I know it will happen again.
So here we are and here we go, yet again:
Snow, I gave you a rebuttal, edited for length - I didn't change anything, and the edit was RIGHT when the post was made, so it wasn't any addition. Like I only posted a line and a half, cut off mid sentence, edited to paste the rest, and immediately posted. There was no edit to the content, and I did it so fast you couldn't have seen the post before, and if you had, it would be chopped half-way into a sentence.
After that, because post counts - of which you needlessly burned at least 5 if mine by refusing to answer a simple question - I had to combine into posts to a lot of people. But you weren't really responding to that (as far as I can tell) with post 167 (the one you started with "Filler doesn’t have to not have a fail state"), you were responding, it seems, to the above post with no edits. So the "talking to lots of people" and "edited once posted" aren't acceptable rebuttals.
Next I posted asking SOMEONE ELSE, Ogru, if they could give examples of filler. Something that they have (as of me writing this) not done. I saw your post, so added an edit. The only thing I changed was the part after the dot. That is, the part above the dot was added all at once, so if you were responding to it (which you seemed to), your argument about an edit changing the content is irrelevant. Especially since I didn't ask you a question there, I asked Ogru the question.
I then pointed out your post, which seemed to be you trying to answer the question I asked her, wasn't an answer to the question, and directly restated the question. Note that the part I posted to her WAS NOT EDITED, so if you were trying to answer this question "Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?", there was no edit. Regardless, post 170, you might notice, HAS NO EDIT. I did not change it at all. This was when I asked you the question directly.
Then you posted 172, accusing me of bad faith and trying to get "a cheap gotcha" instead of answering the question. Note the post where I asked you the question WAS NOT EDITED IN ANY WAY. This was your response. There was no justification for it, since the prior post of me asking you the question was not edited in any way, and you didn't mention edits in this post. You just didn't want to answer because you instead wanted to assume I was acting in bad faith. This was before you had ANY reason to do so.
Post 173 I initially made in response to someone else, LittleImp. But I saw your reply so made an edit to tell you it wasn't a cheap gotcha and ask you the same question again. THE ONLY CHANGE I MADE TO IT AFTER THAT was clearly marked: "EDIT: For example, if you DON'T consider Requiescat/Confetti/Swords to be "filler", then Searing Light/Summon Bahamut/Astral Impulse wouldn't be filler. If you consider the latter filler, then you must also consider the former filler. This is why I need to see PRACTICAL EXAMPLES and abilities, not a definition. :ENDEDIT". While perhaps a useful clarification, it was NOT part of the original question, which again was posted in a prior post WITH NO EDIT, and it didn't change the question in any way. It was merely a hope that by more information you might answer the question more fully.
THEN, post 174, you accused me of editing "excessively long posts" (all the posts in this chain to this point that you'd been replying to were not edited for length, so they fit within the post limit and thus were not "excessively long"), AFTER having just gotten through accusing me of a bad faith "gotcha" attempt without cause. So at this point, you were probably already acting in bad faith and looking for an excuse to derail the thread and attack me instead of engaging in good faith. I'll also note here that YOU edited THAT post after posting it. And UNLIKE me, you don't document your edits. So you're outright guilty of this very crime you are accusing me of in your effort to not engage in good faith discussion.
Post 178, I pointed this out, asked you to calm down, and did so respectfully without making accusations other than noting I had asked this question multiple times at this point. This post was edited, immediately when posted, for length, though I realized after I didn't need to (it originally included the rest of your quote as an artifact and once I cut that out, was under the character limit). Regardless, nothing in this post was actually changed by the edit other than me removing the extraneous partial quote. In this post - pre-edit, I'll add, since I put that all up at once - I analyzed what you presented, gave my take, and asked you directly if you could give other examples from other Jobs and if you agreed with my RDM one. I'll note you have, thus far, refused to answer these questions.
Then I posted the above, 181. Note again, short post, NO EDITS. I asked you, yet again, if you could give examples from other Jobs, specifically asked about RDM, or for a Tank or Melee, and politely thanked you in advance.
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How did you respond to all that?
You accused me of being the problem "because of the way you post", accused me of editing (when you can see above several of my posts have LITERALLY no edits, the other cases clearly mark the edits, and two of those cases the edits were right when posted so you probably weren't responding to the initial post of a half-sentence, and in no cases were the edits material to what was asked of you), "reply to 56 people at once" (something I've never done in ANY post), "and then get angry when people mix context from your mammoth posts" implying I'm the one angry after I pointed out you were mad and am currently completely neutral AND that ALLLLLL of the posts you were replying to were not "mammoth posts" as they were all under the character limit and several didn't require editing at all.
I made it very clear I was looking for "examples of filter" from the time I posted "Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?", which was early on, in a short post, without edit. In other words, your excuses and what you're accusing me of here were not an issue.
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I DO see the problem here: You don't want to answer the question. You made an argument "all of SMN's rotation is filler" that was wrong to begin with, and you don't want to appear weak or defeated by admitting you spoke in hyperbole and overstated your critique of SMN. It had nothing to do with you being "sick of the way" that I post and reply to people, since my posts were all short (that you were replying to), and many of them were outright unedited. You just were refusing to engage. And yes, in this case, it LITERALLY is your fault because you didn't want to answer the question, and instead of just saying you might have been wrong or overstated your case initially, tried to dither and distract, and finally, when that FAILED, tried to turn it around into an attack on me here in post 182.
"I'll have an actual discussion with you sometime in the future if you can actually shorten your posts, not edit them to add 5 more points later and then act like it’s our fault we didn’t read those later points" is hard to take seriously when this was the post that started this whole thing:
...no edit, no reply to multiple people, and I would like you to tell me how that post ISN'T short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I can't make a post that replied to only you, had no edits, and was all of two lines long shorter, replying to less people, and unedited.
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It strikes me you don't want to engage in good faith, and you don't want to admit you overstated your critique of SMN. I gave you ample benefit of the doubt and you repaid me with scorn, and YET AGAIN I have to go through the post history to show why YET ANOTHER attack on me here is unfounded.
And you know the best part? Your post will get several likes despite it all and you will feel you were justified when you should be apologizing for not willing to engage in good faith, looking for any excuse not to, and settling on attacking me AND turning it around on me "acting" like it wasn't my fault when, in this instance, it literally was not.
.
And in a week or two, we'll do this same song and dance again.
Because you won't want to answer some OTHER question and will look for a way out, and that way out will be attacking me instead of answering the question.
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God...damnit... this gets so old.
I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, make short posts, direct replies to you only even though it eats through my post limit, no edits, cordial, polite, and this is the thanks I get.
Maybe I post the way I do because people like you post the way you do. Have you ever considered that? -
09-21-2023, 01:22 PMOgruMogru
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09-21-2023, 01:22 PMRenathrasPhew, any port in a storm...at least you're engaging with the topic. You have my thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
I think the definition is important if we're trying to pin down what it is as a point of argument. If we're going to use it as an argument against SMN, we need to know what "it" is. I think you give something, though, your own definition: " There are actions that do not build up anything or towards anything, and that do not themselves have the feel of ending or finishing some sequence of actions."
I feel like an issue is that is pretty subjective (for example, I tend to use Garuda as G,G,G,G,AF), and the Slipstream Astral Flow feels like a "cap" on that part of my rotation. Likewise, I tend to use Ifrit with the hardcasts first to get them out of the way, though this is more situational. But as I noted, that still wouldn't include the Demi-Primals, as they ARE the thing you are going towards, but in their own way, refresh the gems to go into the Primals. I also think the problem with "aspected Ruin III" is, not only does it not really express useful information, it's derisive. When one is using needlessly derisive terms in an ongoing topic of contention, it tends to increase contention and animosity.
As for your last point:
I somewhat disagree.
I do not think every Job needs a high skill ceiling, nor do I believe every Job needs a low skill floor. I think it's acceptable for some Jobs to have a high skill floor - as long as it's not EVERY Job. And I likewise feel it's acceptable for some Jobs to have a low skill ceiling - as long as it's not EVERY Job. Provided players have options if they'd rather the different ones, I think that's good game design. It's when there are no options that it becomes a problem.
BLM exists, so SMN existing is fine to me. If BLM didn't exist, I'd think that was bad. If SMN didn't exist, I'd think that was bad.
If nothing else, I'm "equal opportunity" on the issue.
EDIT: From here and below, but edit being done as I post, so no additions or changes
As I say above, I suppose this comes down to individual belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
I think it's good as a DPS, since there are other Jobs that don't work that way. Consider the alternative - if every job was like SMN. That would be bad as well. For my part, I think diversity of options is key. Any heavy limits on that, I consider negative. (I also contest RPR is "a very simple Job" but that's neither here nor there and I haven't played with it enough yet; about to, though, since it's the only Job I have left to get the story from so leveling it to at least 80 because I want to do all its story quests...)
Yet anther person in bad faith. Either answer the question or don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
EDIT2: I am NOT wasting a post on this:
Ah, Stormpeaks. Don't ever change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormpeaks
Also: It's "he", not "them", just so you know. Thanks. And again, please DO tell me how THIS POST is "giant novels that could be tldr'd":
Maybe realize your canned ad hominem attack on me, this once, isn't justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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09-21-2023, 01:25 PMStormpeaksHonestly it's better to just ignore them at this point, they have been told the same thing times and times again, they don't care, 99% of people don't have the time or dont want to read giant novels that could be tldr'd to a few sentences, it just ain't worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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09-21-2023, 01:34 PMRenathrasHey.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
Thank you for the good faith post, too.
I might reply to it later, but I've got a really sour taste in my mouth right now about this whole discussion. Hope you can understand. But I do appreciate your post and some of your points. Thanks for sharing. -
09-21-2023, 01:55 PMShurrikhanOddly enough, though I'm huge fan of nuance and highly context-impacted calculations that may invert a typically-held guideline, I never really feel all that thrilled by fail states like these, especially when the player impact of the mechanics seems at odds with the job theme in that state. Being overwhelmed by one's Voidsent = be careful not to overspend? ???Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu
In a game with greater technical/coding competence, rather than having Communio spend stacks and copying old Req-Confiteor's fail condition (I consider PLD to seem far more deliberate/methodical than a Voidscent-enraptured scythe-man on a killing spree), I'd prefer it if each spender raises the damage of the next Communio but that bonus fades, by percent, over time, so that instead of that mechanic feeling "measured" and strictly timed, it instead feels more opportunistic and capitalizing... more predatory/cruel... in that it may want to pop it slightly early after a string of crits, or gamble that the string will continue (for even bigger blasts).
Agreed, though, that SMN lacks that sense of pivotal moments or "destinations" or the like. I feel like part of that, though, is just inherent in the summons' being phase-starters instead of feeling at all like rewards or capitalizations.
:: Food for thought: What probably kills small, highly-nuanced optimizations the most... is just the super obvious/unchanging win/fail conditions that tend to heavily punish "mistakes" more so than "errors". A lot of the times a low floor and high ceiling aren't just paired design goals, but a high ceiling almost seems to inadvertently cause things that in turn cause an accessible floor. -
09-21-2023, 03:59 PMAravellI never said there should not be diversity of options and that every job should be BLM-level, I doubt anyone else says that either. Where you think SMN is a good baseline job for ease of access into the role, I think it's way too low (before anyone tries to hit me with a gotcha, yes, I also hate DNC and MCH for their simplicity).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I want RDM/RPR to be the baseline for the DPS role, those are two very easy to understand jobs with a very simple baseline rotation consideration. RDM baseline considerations is just don't overcap mana, keep everything on cd, don't have too big of a split in white/black mana. RPR baseline considerations is just don't overcap soul/shroud gauge, keep stuff on cd, don't drop Death's Design. Very simple jobs overall, even for people very new to the role, except they have their own additional considerations if one intends to optimise. Anything at the SMN level is more akin to what you'd expect from a tank or healer job because of how barebones it is.
You also have to understand that SMN itself is heavily limiting any sort of additional growth that people want out of the job, telling people who want to grow better at SMN "Well, just go play BLM then." isn't going to make them happy. Adding more considerations to SMN to allow people some room for growth would also would not alienate anyone since the baseline of this job is already so simple. If you're playing PLD and you see another PLD doing the optional rotation where they fit an extra Holy Spirit under FoF, would you consider that unfair? If you don't consider that unfair, then you're not really opposing what people are asking, which is optional ways to grow better at the job they main. -
09-21-2023, 05:18 PMSebazyBecause I think you're making up unrealistic scenarios to try and push your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeastria
If it was a valid issue, it would be easy enough to find cases of this happening in huge mega threads such as tales from DF.
Yet it isn't. Why is that.
I'm not sure which point I tried to suggest that *Everyone* got their Titan HM clear in so how about you go derail someone else's point? Take that word out of your mouth and sit back down son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Now we've got the required 'Renathras is doing a Ren moment' out of the way: On my server at least, I'd wager that a solid majority who put some effort in managed it. Why can I say this with confidence?
Because on Ragnarok we had a huge series of Linkshells called Attack on Titan. Towards the end it ran to something like 5 or 6 filled out shells and we were actively having to ask people to leave if they had all the relics they wanted. It was vast and it would have multiple teams of helpers farming for other peoples Relics all night, every night. It was well organised and very effective despite mostly being filled with average joes rather than stuffed full of the then relatively small hardcore coil community.
You mean like Titan Unreal was considered braindead too? Lenient like getting knocked off the edge and not being able to be raised in many a fight back then?
I mean sure, Titan HM would be easier now, with todays improved server latency, with todays oGCD filled burst healing tools, with todays movement friendly jobs, with todays plugins and timelines, with todays nigh bottomless MP and with todays Youtube guides. But trying to downplay it's challenge back in the day when we had none of that shows your ignorance and lack of understanding for what it is.
Maybe you need to go watch some more Mr Happy guides to fill you in. -
09-21-2023, 06:56 PMRein_eon_OsbornePrecisely. They're already clearable even when people are playing suboptimal/incorrectly, so why care?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeastria
Gonna have to disagree with that.Quote:
[...]It's the same with job difficuilty.. you want easy/middle/hard and ffxiv do have this - with SMN being the easiest among them.
easy jobs --> it's an entry point for less experienced players into the game..
SMN in its current iteration is a bane to the entire caster role. Not to mention that it has been iterated that their issue isn't the entry point---It's because they have nowhere else to go after reaching that entry point. -
09-21-2023, 07:09 PMSupersnow845
Let’s be honest here where can they actually go with SMN as it is
Say (ignoring the problems this would introduce) they did leviathan, shiva and Ramuh at level 100, what the hell would they do for level 110, there is already no room in the rotation, no flexibility and no growth, at most they could maybe do something like replacing the one button spam of the Demi’s with a rotation but at that point why didn’t they do that for EW
The job isn’t a solid foundation, it’s a dead end -
09-21-2023, 07:41 PMAravellI could honestly see them ripping Phoenix out of the rotation and making it a standalone summon for Everlasting Flight and Rekindle, then they replace Phoenix with another flashy summon and call it a job well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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09-21-2023, 07:47 PMSupersnow845That’s such a stupid and nonsensical idea I’m now almost convinced that’s exactly what they will doQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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09-21-2023, 08:51 PMRein_eon_Osborne
Mother Hydaelyn, don’t give them ideas lol.
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09-21-2023, 11:22 PMBonokiI feel this way about a lot of jobs. Normally I am excited about what new actions an expansion will bring but lately I've been more terrified about which skills are getting removed more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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09-21-2023, 11:27 PMMorphiana
Look, you can either have a limited number of in depth classes with balance or a ton of more generic classes with balance. You cannot have both, WoW has taught us that, the work load becomes insane after awhile.
The more classes and abilities you add the more you have to account for. 1 class is not just 1 more thing to worry about, a new class comes with a ton of abilities you'll have to worry about and how they interact with everything from other jobs to the enemies in the game. That's just PvE, it doesn't even include PvP balancing. The more unique you make it, the harder it will be to tune. The more time they spend tuning class balance the less content you'll get so they make the classes easier to tune thus more generic.
If you want more depth to your classes and more strategy behind the game play then it's best to start asking they slow down on new class releases. Otherwise, it'll become more generic with each subsequent class they put out.