Let's redefine "damage taxes"

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

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Wow I actually agree with you lol.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Lorewise wouldn't it feel pretty weird to summon Shiva as she's a person before being a primal?

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A Shiva Trance, where you become Shiva like how Reaper goes Enshroud, would make more sense lorewise, but I doubt that'll ever happen because no fun allowed in the 120 second scourge.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

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Have we already forgot Shadowbringers where all three casters were pretty desirable? Yeah, BLM did a little more damage and was still less popular than them (it likely always will be and still is), but I don't think anyone claimed it had "no incentive to play".

I think most casters, including BLMs who are currently getting gapped by melee themselves would rather go back to those days. Only this time, physical ranged should be brought up as well.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

Have we already forgot Shadowbringers where all three casters were pretty desirable? Yeah, BLM did a little more damage and was still less popular than them (it likely always will be and still is), but I don't think anyone claimed it had "no incentive to play".

I think most casters, including BLMs who are currently getting gapped by melee themselves would rather go back to those days. Only this time, physical ranged should be brought up as well.

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Problem is when you keep making that gap smaller and smaller, BLM is already not a really that is desirable in a lot of cases (Despite currently having a massive damage advantage it's the least used caster), While I agree we shouldn't have a massive difference having insensitive to play a "selfish" job like Black Mage is always going to be a tight rope to balance. Generally If your aim is to make jobs such as RDM/SMN do the same damage as BLM, you would generally need to rework both entirely in their current state and remove abilities such as raise. I think the goal is clear that you generally want a high skill (even a high risk?) job such as BLM to have enough reward to be played but also not have too much where summoner and red mage become useless.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

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The incentive is that it does more damage, not "similar" (even 1% is significant) and that people find it more fun and fulfilling in its job identity. That is balance, as gone over MULTIPLE times. Repeating a wrong statement MULTIPLE times is still a wrong statement.

By your argument, no one would be playing any other job than melee right now. Yet we still have MCHs, RDMs, BLMs, all jobs are still being played. I myself play RDM and MCH quite often even, and PLD. People will always play any job, even if it sucks, because they find it more fun to play.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And the flaw, as gone over MULTIPLE times, is that making it equal isn't actual balance. There is no incentive to BLM if it does similar damage while also being more punishing

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Not true. If BLM=RDM=SMN for DPS, There is no incentive to BLM because raise and support skills bring more. This is why until they remove ressurection form both SMN/RDM they will always be lower by BLM and they should by around 3%. It's not because BLM is more punishing. They are strats specifically to cater to BLM's situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ijy_gV5Upk

First dog on BLM looks punishing. Until you realize the entire party do the movement and both tank use their invulns so the BLM can full uptime. It's been like that since forever for Black Mage. This is also the second reason Black Mage is not favored in prog groups. Unless you device strats on the fly for your BLM, he'll never be at 100% unless those strats are found. He lacks raise from SMN & RDM also and he lacks the simplicity of taking the second melee spot.

In an optimized run that min-max, I'm sorry to say that your Black Mage won't be suffering from any punishment unless he makes a silly mistake which would cost anyone making that mistake or a team mate ruins him.

Black Mage should be doing the most damage on the first tier. Because party buffs scales better with gear versus jobs that are selfish like BLM, MCH & SAM.

You can never get true balance but being "more punished" isn't a good reason to say.
- If you make mistakes you will get punished. There are mistakes that cost more than others but it isn't the gravity of mistakes that make a player pick a job. If you look to optimize, you're not making mistake.
- There is a ton of incentive to play Black Mage now. They are the best DPS caster. They are not desirable in prog unless you double casters and that's an handicap.
- You can be punished by bad teammates. Example would be to raise 3 times on RDM. You didn't make a mistake but you're really behind your black & white mana and 3 GCD DPS spells. You're not having a good log. In the case of BLM would be, let's say, a tank stays on your leylines with a cleave buster and forces you out. BLM didn't do anything wrong, the tank did.

Also, you don't play Black Mage so you wouldn't know about how badly they get punished!

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Problem is when you keep making that gap smaller and smaller, BLM is already not a really that is desirable in a lot of cases (Despite currently having a massive damage advantage it's the least used caster), While I agree we shouldn't have a massive difference having insensitive to play a "selfish" job like Black Mage is always going to be a tight rope to balance. Generally If your aim is to make jobs such as RDM/SMN do the same damage as BLM, you would generally need to rework both entirely in their current state and remove abilities such as raise. I think the goal is clear that you generally want a high skill (even a high risk?) job such as BLM to have enough reward to be played but also not have too much where summoner and red mage become useless.

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The gap was fine in ShB. If they want to destroy SMN/RDM relative to the melee, it is unavoidable that BLM will feel its effects. If BLM were to ever do the damage it deserves (AT LEAST melee damage) RDM/SMN would be instantly dropped for the triple melee damage it offers.

Trying to do a balancing act to fix something that wasn't broken in ShB has undeniably harmed all three casters, BLM included.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

The gap was fine in ShB. If they want to destroy SMN/RDM relative to the melee, it is unavoidable that BLM will feel its effects. If BLM were to ever do the damage it deserves (AT LEAST melee damage) RDM/SMN would be instantly dropped for the triple melee damage it offers.

Trying to do a balancing act to fix something that wasn't broken in ShB has undeniably harmed all three casters, BLM included.

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I'd just bump up casters and phys ranged in general compared to melee, likely slightly lessen the gap between RDM/SMN. and BLM, My biggest problem right now comes with how far above melees sit, maybe they should be pretty high still? but not that high.

I think BLM simply should be the highest in general, Lets not include any percent buff bonuses (for each role) or anything if you had the choice of having a Samurai or a Black mage both at "optional level" doing the same damage you'd generally want to bring the samurai as it's more reliable and will have less restrictions to the fight

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd just bump up casters and phys ranged in general compared to melee, likely slightly lessen the gap between RDM/SMN. and BLM, My biggest problem right now comes with how far above melees sit, maybe they should be pretty high still? but not that high.

I think BLM simply should be the highest in general, Lets not include any percent buff bonuses (for each role) or anything if you had the choice of having a Samurai or a Black mage both at "optional level" doing the same damage you'd generally want to bring the samurai as it's more reliable and will have less restrictions to the fight

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I agree, they should, but it doesn't need to be an exaggerated gap larger than ShB. BLM can be buffed to where it should be AND ranged (including both casters and prange) can be substantially closer to melee damage than prange have been historically.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

The gap was fine in ShB. If they want to destroy SMN/RDM relative to the melee, it is unavoidable that BLM will feel its effects. If BLM were to ever do the damage it deserves (AT LEAST melee damage) RDM/SMN would be instantly dropped for the triple melee damage it offers.

Trying to do a balancing act to fix something that wasn't broken in ShB has undeniably harmed all three casters, BLM included.

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As long as all jobs are close in rDPS, differences in inequality of prog vs. clear/farm are fine. It's okay if SMN and RDM are better at progging and BLM is better at clear/farming. That's not a problem that needs to be addressed, so long as you can prog on BLM and clear/farm on SMN/RDM due to similar rDPS.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

Have we already forgot Shadowbringers where all three casters were pretty desirable? Yeah, BLM did a little more damage and was still less popular than them (it likely always will be and still is), but I don't think anyone claimed it had "no incentive to play".

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Because yknow, it did more damage than them but around 5%

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Originally Posted by Mithron

The incentive is that it does more damage, not "similar" (even 1% is significant) and that people find it more fun and fulfilling in its job identity. That is balance

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1% is not and never will be significant. Stop spouting garbage. And I have informed you what actual balance is, MULTIPLE times. At this point you're intentionally spreading misinformation

It's significant. P6S right now.

https://i.imgur.com/6PNntsB.png

DNC vs BRD vs MCH

BRD is 1.2% over MCH.
DNC is 1.2% over BRD.
DNC is 2.5% over MCH.
#1 DPS MNK vs 11th DPS MCH is 10.7% above :)

It's with 1% that you accumulate a significant difference.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

I agree, they should, but it doesn't need to be an exaggerated gap larger than ShB. BLM can be buffed to where it should be AND ranged (including both casters and prange) can be substantially closer to melee damage than prange have been historically.

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I think the tax should still exist (at least for pranged) but should be reduced (by quite a lot) I just believe jobs like Black Mage and arguably Red Mage give up more mobility then Melee jobs, Difficulty tax is sort of hard because difficulty is pretty subjective to each and every person, so in general I rather they not balance too much in terms of "difficulty" even then no melee job is difficult enough to justify the current differences, most melees are really easy (to me).

With BLM Vs Rdm/Smn it's also somewhat a utility argument? I get raise is a pretty hard ability to balance around as if it's too useful even if BLM has a massive damage advantage unless theirs a massive needed dps check people will always want the caster with raise, if it's bad in a fight then rdm/smn being taxed for it kinda sucks, I'm not too sure though I just feel like utility does have somewhat a place in balance discussion even if it should be small, that with mobility ect. Just makes it so hard to Balance casters in general.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

It's significant. P6S right now.

https://i.imgur.com/6PNntsB.png

DNC vs BRD vs MCH

BRD is 1.2% over MCH.
DNC is 1.2% over BRD.
DNC is 2.5% over MCH.
#1 DPS MNK vs 11th DPS MCH is 10.7% above :)

It's with 1% that you accumulate a significant difference.

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1% is less than 10.7% What even are you trying at here?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

1% is less than 10.7% What even are you trying at here?

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"Ranged Physical are only 2.5% between each other. This is fine."

But the best melee and the worst ranged physical is 10.7%.

If the 11th DPS is 1% behind the 10th DPS and you keep that trend then it'll end up being 11%. This is extremely high. This is why it doesn't work and you'd want ideally 4% to 5% between the best and worst DPS.

1% at this stage is 100 DPS. That's significant.

Edit; This is also why someone told you 1% more DPS was a significant reason to play a job over another :)

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Originally Posted by Mithron

As long as all jobs are close in rDPS, differences in inequality of prog vs. clear/farm are fine. It's okay if SMN and RDM are better at progging and BLM is better at clear/farming. That's not a problem that needs to be addressed, so long as you can prog on BLM and clear/farm on SMN/RDM due to similar rDPS.

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Problem is when your farming DPS becomes really a less factor as everyone already likely has better gear, So at that point whats the point of even bringing black mage, like seriously, No one is going to care that black Mage does "1% more" then the other casters during a farm groups, this seriously makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

"Ranged Physical are only 2.5% between each other. This is fine."

But the best melee and the worst ranged physical is 10.7%.

If the 11th DPS is 1% behind the 10th DPS and you keep that trend then it'll end up being 11%. This is extremely high. This is why it doesn't work and you'd want ideally 4% to 5% between the best and worst DPS.

1% at this stage is 100 DPS. That's significant.

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It's weird to me how much people cherry pick comparing based in role and out of role.

People say stuff like "RDM should do more than prange!" or "BLM should do more than melee!" and then suddenly the comparison to prange is "2.5% in role" like that's nothing

Either that 10.7% matters or it doesn't. If interrole balance doesn't matter (it most definitely does) then the position that BLM is in is perfectly fine, because it does so much damage than the other casters, and its comparison to everything else is irrelevant.

Is that the way we really want the game to be balanced? I'm going to say clearly not.

As far as I'm concerned ADPS > RDPS and you can't convince me otherwise. This obsession with RDPS is unhealthy.

Only thing I agree on is if you provide a good amount of RDPS your ADPS should be lower and if you have no RDPS then your ADPS should be higher.

They should just get off their high horse and make Phoenix Downs(you can only carry 1 per player at any given time so that's a balancing act in itself) usable in combat if Raise balance is such an issue.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

It's weird to me how much people cherry pick comparing based in role and out of role.

People say stuff like "RDM should do more than prange!" or "BLM should do more than melee!" and then suddenly the comparison to prange is "2.5% in role" like that's nothing

Either that 10.7% matters or it doesn't. If interrole balance doesn't matter (it most definitely does) then the position that BLM is in is perfectly fine, because it does so much damage than the other casters, and its comparison to everything else is irrelevant.

Is that the way we really want the game to be balanced? I'm going to say clearly not.

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But it's not because back in Stormblood, the tax favoring melee was validate due to fight designs.

Nowadays, melee DPS play like ranged physical and simply deal 10% more damage.

Comp used to be melee/caster/ranged physical/flex

Now it's double melee/caster/ranged physical, it's not even a question.

It's only going to be worst as they design more jobs. I wouldn't be surprise if they only release 1 new job. If it was a difference of 5% in ShB and now it's 10%. WHat will be 7.0? Even more jobs will be ignored. So yeah, it is important.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

As far as I'm concerned ADPS > RDPS and you can't convince me otherwise. This obsession with RDPS is unhealthy.

Only thing I agree on is if you provide a good amount of RDPS your ADPS should be lower and if you have no RDPS then your ADPS should be higher.

They should just get off their high horse and make Phoenix Downs(you can only carry 1 per player at any given time so that's a balancing act in itself) usable in combat if Raise balance is such an issue.

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There's not a better. Both metrics have caveats but rDPS is more accurate. It considers all buffs so a job like Machinist is not wrongly mistaken as being "ok"

Might be different on roles like Tanks because none of them have raid DPS buff but we're not talking tanks.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

you'd want ideally 4% to 5% between the best and worst DPS.

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Which is basically what I've been saying. If you aren't going to bother reading then dismiss yourself

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Which is basically what I've been saying. If you aren't going to bother reading then dismiss yourself

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You should reread yourself saying 1% doesn't matter but suddenly 1% on 11 different job all together is 10.7%.

You should consider thinking and learning basic maths. If jobs we're 0.4% to 0.5% of each other; we'd be fine.

"You are dismissed mister one trick RDM player who think he can talk for all DPS."

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

It's weird to me how much people cherry pick comparing based in role and out of role.

People say stuff like "RDM should do more than prange!" or "BLM should do more than melee!" and then suddenly the comparison to prange is "2.5% in role" like that's nothing

Either that 10.7% matters or it doesn't. If interrole balance doesn't matter (it most definitely does) then the position that BLM is in is perfectly fine, because it does so much damage than the other casters, and its comparison to everything else is irrelevant.

Is that the way we really want the game to be balanced? I'm going to say clearly not.

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I think when you look at the difference in 2.5% in ranged alone it sounds "fine"
But Machinist having zero (ranged shields are bassically a role action with different icons/names) utility, doing the least total damage really stings when you compare it to dancer (which i find is easier then mch, has so much utility), it even has dashes lol, like theirs currently zero reason to pick machinist outside enjoyment.

I think when you compare RDM or SMN to BLM, you can at least point to better mobility, raise and utility on both as a reason for them to be behind.

General all classes should be balanced in around 4-5% of each other, A class with mobility and utility, (high skill, but idk theirs not much "skill" to push a job to be a lot higher) ect. Are all reasons to slightly move up the job, at the end of the day, alot of this is my opinion but it shouldn't be that hard to reach a relative middle ground where allowing skill expression to exist without pushing a job too far below the others for having mobility, ease of use utility ect.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You should reread yourself saying 1% doesn't matter but suddenly 1% on 11 different job all together is 10.7%.

You should consider thinking and learning basic maths. If jobs we're 0.4% to 0.5% of each other; we'd be fine.

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1% from top to bottom is insignificant, hence why balancing top to bottom around it is bad. If you choose not to read I won't gift you a reply

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Originally Posted by FireMage

1% from top to bottom is insignificant, hence why balancing top to bottom around it is bad. If you choose not to read I won't gift you a reply

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That's just mean we'd really have a melee/ranged/caster/flex. Honestly, it'd work but it's not gonna happen.

I read you fine. You said that it should be 5% between worst and best. Also, you said Summoner (currently on the bottom 7% behind Monk on P6S) deserves a nerf. I read you perfectly fine that you have no coherence and you make no sense.

Your opinion is not required anymore.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

1% from top to bottom is insignificant, hence why balancing top to bottom around it is bad. If you choose not to read I won't gift you a reply

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You should consider thinking and learning basic maths. If jobs we're 0.4% to 0.5% of each other; we'd be fine.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

you'd want ideally 4% to 5% between the best and worst DPS.

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They aren't asking for 1% from top to bottom but for 0.4%/0.5% between each jobs.
As we have 11 DPS jobs, that would be 4.4%~5.5%.

Or maybe did I skipped a part?

The current problem is that most jobs only offers rDPS with some jobs creating grey lines of value due to their healing/mitigation.
This might be a solution, utility that could make the DPS differences between jobs insignificant.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Problem is when your farming DPS becomes really a less factor as everyone already likely has better gear, So at that point whats the point of even bringing black mage, like seriously, No one is going to care that black Mage does "1% more" then the other casters during a farm groups, this seriously makes no sense to me.

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Because 1% is something people care about due to it being faster clears and BLM is a playstyle people enjoy. You also won't need those raises nearly as much since you aren't progging and are better geared, so what's the point of taking less DPS for a raise you rarely and ideally never use?

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think when you look at the difference in 2.5% in ranged alone it sounds "fine"
But Machinist having zero (ranged shields are bassically a role action with different icons/names) utility, doing the least total damage really stings when you compare it to dancer (which i find is easier then mch, has so much utility), it even has dashes lol, like theirs currently zero reason to pick machinist outside enjoyment.

I think when you compare RDM or SMN to BLM, you can at least point to better mobility, raise and utility on both as a reason for them to be behind.

General all classes should be balanced in around 4-5% of each other, A class with mobility and utility, (high skill, but idk theirs not much "skill" to push a job to be a lot higher) ect. Are all reasons to slightly move up the job, at the end of the day, alot of this is my opinion but it shouldn't be that hard to reach a relative middle ground where allowing skill expression to exist without pushing a job too far below the others for having mobility, ease of use utility ect.

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2.5% between roles would be fine if those jobs weren't all at the bottom.Like RDM&SMN would be fine to be 3% behind BLM. Except they're all at the bottom. THe real issue is the current taxes don,t fit the new fight designs heavily favoring melee DPS by 8% to 10%. Casters and Physc Ranged are actually balanced between each other with BLM being a bit too high and MCH being too low. The issue is the melee role lol.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

That's just mean we'd really have a melee/ranged/caster/flex. Honestly, it'd work but it's not gonna happen.

I read you fine. You said that it should be 5% between worst and best. Also, you said Summoner (currently on the bottom 7% behind Monk on P6S) deserves a nerf. I read you perfectly fine that you have no coherence and you make no sense.

Your opinion is not required anymore.

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Oh look, you're putting words in my mouth. I never called for a SMN nerf, I merely said it would be at the bottom with proper balance. Go harass someone else, troll

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because 1% is something people care about due to it being faster clears and BLM is a playstyle people enjoy. You also won't need those raises nearly as much since you aren't progging and are better geared, so what's the point of taking less DPS for a raise you rarely and ideally never use?

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No one cares about saving 10 seconds on a reclear/farm, when we talk about balancing Ideally the aim is to balance stuff for first clears and around low gear, The reason why you'd want a "higher damage" job in the first place is to avoid 1. Enrage 2. making up for "bad performance", Making it so BLM has no use in progression and their one niche is to make some reclears "slightly faster" when bringing a rdm/smn still would likely be a better idea just incase lol, Makes no sense it's baffling how useless it would be.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Problem is when your farming DPS becomes really a less factor as everyone already likely has better gear, So at that point whats the point of even bringing black mage, like seriously, No one is going to care that black Mage does "1% more" then the other casters during a farm groups, this seriously makes no sense to me.

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I don't think farm groups will really care as long as the person is good at their job and can pull good numbers, the only time jobs ever get locked out is when you have situations like with PLD or MCH or even RDM where the damage is so comparatively low that it's just objectively better to lock them out because a mediocre player on a different job within the same role will pull almost always better numbers (At least if we're speaking in terms of FFLogs because there are other factors)

Plus the tight damage checks (Less so now anyways) incentivize locking out the lowest performing jobs because it gives a lot more leeway for mistakes and such

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

They aren't asking for 1% from top to bottom but for 0.4%/0.5% between each jobs.
As we have 11 DPS jobs, that would be 4.4%~5.5%.

A simple misunderstanding, it's okay.

The current problem is that most jobs only offers rDPS with some jobs creating grey lines of value due to their healing/mitigation.
This might be a solution, utility that could make the DPS differences between jobs insignificant.

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Wrong. Mitron is literally calling for ~1% for all DPS. When that's what the tiers should be done around between tiers and having 5 of them

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Oh look, you're putting words in my mouth. I never called for a SMN nerf, I merely said it would be at the bottom with proper balance. Go harass someone else, troll

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I'm pretty sure I could find many posts where you were wrong. To simply put, you're a RDM purist that only care about RDM.

Ah yeah, this.

https://i.imgur.com/Fao8KtH.png

Remember this reply? There's a reason it has 15 likes. You did mention that, I read it properly but your take was still really bad.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You're making really bad jokes when you say that and it's no wonder people don't take you seriously.

But I will add facts into this conversation with actual evidences that y'all need to understand complexity involves the fight directly. Back in Stormblood, I was a Melee DPS. When I would get downtime.

Here is a video of a week 1 clear of a DRG PoV. I've put the timestamp to point my point. https://youtu.be/jISBDvFG3S4?t=73 Look at how tiny the hitbox is and look. Hello World is basically High Concept. Notice how the fight is still going and you still have to DPS? Notice how this Dragoon is forced to take the L and disengage and use his backflip to get back into the fight faster? He's still second DPS and that's taking into account the BRD is doing 5% more due to Piercing Debuff from the Dragoon. During that time, the tax to help Melee was valid.

How about we check this tier's last boss as a melee DPS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_t7md58v0

- No downtime (100% melee uptime)
- No positional Cry me a freaking river Melee DPS
- Every single mechanic in the fight including Natural Alignment happens in the enormous hitbox of the box so Melee can DPS.
- High Concept which WOULD induce melee downtime by the nature of mechanics has the boss conveniently invulnerable.

High Concept is the equivalent of Hello World. Why is the boss invulnerable now? Because it would suck for melee DPS. So SE designed the fight for you to not DPS on it. This is not only unfair to ranged and caster DPS who are getting taxed for no reason anymore. This is ridiculously unfair to healers who still have to plan mitigations and I can tell you a good amount of my groups wipes were healers figuring out. I had nothing to do. I guess I had to think about Radiant Aegis :pepelaugh:

So let's redefine DPS in this fight.
Caster DPS: A DPS that has to plan their movement during uptime and mechanics. Summoners gets the excuse they are basically a physical ranged DPS with 4 casts per minute.
Ranged DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility.
Melee DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility with a 10% damage buff over Ranged and Caster.

And y'all talking how SMN and MCH should do trash damage because they are brain dead? Look at this Ninja. This was a target dummy fight for him. I don't really care if you're saying they press a lot more buttons than other jobs. So does Machinist? There is no more complexity in fights for melee DPS. There is no more difficulty. Melee DPS is just a ranged physical DPS that doesn't go on the backrow.

I'll go even further and beyond. https://xivanalysis.com/fflogs/VmgJQXdBHFbNPWcK/7 This is their week 1 clear xivanalysis. They have purposefully delayed their last buff window for the Summoner who dropped Phoenix before Ego Death and when they got the buff, the SMN went and quickened his primal summons to get Bahamut ASAP in the buff window:

https://i.imgur.com/u7Q8wHZ.png

They got the clear with 1 death. By doing that, the SMN got a final Phoenix which was a free 1300 potency oGCD. The result of them making this choice was definitely not "brain dead". They gave it a lot of thoughts and SMN truly shine on those 1/2 minutes buff windows. This shows one thing. It doesn't matter how smooth and easy a rotation is on a target dummy. What defines a big part of the complexity of a rotation is the fight design. The fight designs have been making it so friendly to melee DPS that it makes it really easy for them. People would like to make you think that MCH and SMN are brain dead. "Look at their stupid silly rotation! Mine is harder!" They definitely will omit to say that thanks to this optimization, that group cleared week 1 P8S with a death.

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

2.5% between roles would be fine if those jobs weren't all at the bottom.Like RDM&SMN would be fine to be 3% behind BLM. Except they're all at the bottom. THe real issue is the current taxes don,t fit the new fight designs heavily favoring melee DPS by 8% to 10%. Casters and Physc Ranged are actually balanced between each other with BLM being a bit too high and MCH being too low. The issue is the melee role lol.

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I agree hence using "in ranged alone" I was more looking it in their own categories.

I've said that I disagree with melee, I think its generally more challenging for black mages to actually perform well compared to melees, melee tax in it's current state makes no sense, Pranged mind you still should slightly slightly perform worse on average then melee (though the tax should be very minor given the changes that make the game more melee friendly).

I think I've said that melee was the issue serval times before this though, I think melees deserve to be generally nerfed or every non melee should be pushed up (as the devs don't like doing nerfs), we should also be slightly buffing jobs such as Reaper, Machinist and RDM (outside of this) as they'd still be "eh" compared to the other jobs in their category, at least small buffs, my main issue was that MCH is awful damage wise in compared to DNC/BRD and offers no mobility(dnc dash), utility.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I'm pretty sure I could find many posts where you were wrong.

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Literally not possible, troll. You won't find a single post where I said that SMN should be nerfed. Saying it should be at the bottom is not calling for a nerf. I've literally said multiple times that proper balance would increase the damage of MOST of the DPS, and nerf and most a melee or two. But hey, when has the truth every stopped trolls from harassing others?

For the sake of argument let's say we're in a happy world and the top and the bottom are 1% away.
What would be the complain?

Jobs don't have the same value in utility?
BLM is more difficult than SMN and the reward is too little?

But in exchange no jobs would be banned from PF, it would be up to the player skill to compensate for the difficulty.
In any case, a week 1 savage player should be able to play any jobs of its role.

"Difficult jobs" (which means... BLM) could have extra utility and personal survival in return.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Literally not possible, troll. You won't find a single post where I said that SMN should be nerfed. Saying it should be at the bottom is not calling for a nerf. I've literally said multiple times that proper balance would increase the damage of MOST of the DPS, and nerf and most a melee or two. But hey, when has the truth every stopped trolls from harassing others?

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There is literally no reason to touch any melee whose name isn't RPR. If anything, the rest of melee are well balanced enough that they should be the baseline for balancing and should not be touched.

Starting to easy tax melee would be the only thing more cringe than not doing anything about the ranged tax.

I think the devs should play the game of buffing the other jobs and then buffing Reaper alternatively. Kinda like they do with Warrior, Monk and MCH every odd patch cycle.

"We don't believe in nerfs so jobs will get periodic buffs all the time". Yo ho ho.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

For the sake of argument let's say we're in a happy world and the top and the bottom are 1% away.
What would be the complain?

Jobs don't have the same value in utility?
BLM is more difficult than SMN and the reward is too little?

But in exchange no jobs would be banned from PF, it would be up to the player skill to compensate for the difficulty.
In any case, a week 1 savage player should be able to play any jobs of its role.

"Difficult jobs" (which means... BLM) could have extra utility and personal survival in return.

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The closer top and worst are woudl be best but unrealistic. No job scales the same anyways but yeah, if it was a much lower % nobody would really care.

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

There is literally no reason to touch any melee whose name isn't RPR. If anything, the rest of melee are well balanced enough that they should be the baseline for balancing and should not be touched.

Starting to easy tax melee would be the only thing more cringe than not doing anything about the ranged tax.

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Yeah, I just think that'd be best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aurora428

There is literally no reason to touch any melee whose name isn't RPR. If anything, the rest of melee are well balanced enough that they should be the baseline for balancing and should not be touched.

Starting to easy tax melee would be the only thing more cringe than not doing anything about the ranged tax.

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Wrong, MNK and NIN are a smidge too high, hitting each GCD combo hit by like 10 potency would smooth them out. Like BLM should be where MNK is now, and then MNK and NIN where DRG and SAM are, and then the rest all brought up to where they should be