job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

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Originally Posted by Hoshikogi

Rampage
<Before>
Increases your attack speed and power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land.
<After>
Increases your attack speed and parry rating for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land.

I could have sworn the original Rampart description said:
"Increases your attack speed and [defense] for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land."

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Go figure I would screw around for hours doing something else while I had it written and someone would post it a minute before me. w

I'm currently away from my super PC capable of running FFXIV and slightly borred. Sorry =)

The description they used (with attack power) was the one before warrior was introduced. The description after the job patch stated defense.

Rampage Increases your attack speed and power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.
Recast Time: 10sec.

according to this link http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post476429

I don't recall Rampage ever haviing a defense boost lol

If anyone has room to complain about underwhelming HP totals, it's monk.

I been reading since this thread came active... and I laugh everytime I see "OMG WHY NERF ARCHER??"

Just came in here to say that

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Originally Posted by Airget

I don't recall Rampage ever haviing a defense boost lol

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The description for rampart after patch 1.21 stated a defense gain; This is one of the reasons why Warrior was so over powered while fighting multiple monsters. This is also the reason why warriors could run through Darkhold with simply regen and stoneskin while being pelted by 15+ monsters and not die.

This defense gain was VERY noticable and it was even noted on the in game description. I'm not sure how you missed reading this detail under the action description [I was (once) over joyed from this change after the job patch].

Good day to be a DRG finally :D

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Originally Posted by Hoshikogi

The description for rampart after patch 1.21 stated a defense gain; This is one of the reasons why Warrior was so over powered while fighting multiple monsters. This is also the reason why warriors could run through Darkhold with simply regen and stoneskin while being pelted by 15+ monsters and not die.

This defense gain was VERY noticable and it was even noted on the in game description. I'm not sure how you missed reading this detail under the action description [I was (once) over joyed from this change after the job patch].

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I could run through darkhold on any melee classes with simply regen and stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I could run through darkhold on any melee classes with simply regen and stoneskin.

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Right... so is this is legendary "trolling" I've been hearing about? =)

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Originally Posted by Elexia

That actually puts it on par with other DD then, not overpowered because level correction is still a bastard.

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Understandable, but I'm interested in the long term impact the loss of TP charge up and upkeep will do in the long run with fights. Also input timing is reduced as well by this. I have a feeling that these things are being overlooked in the overall changes, and are going to have a huge impact on the average Dragoon performance.

PLD will never be wanted as long as they don't have AoE damage. This game revolves around speeding through content as fast as possible. That meaning people bring the most viable AoE damage they can, meaning PLD's won't ever get hate off them. At least WAR's have Collusion and Steel Cyclone no matter how much SE gimps them.

So yet again, speed runs only makes things worst.

Power Surge is giving me 342 Attack at 3 stacks not sure if this is a static number or based off your other stats.

What did people say about PLD unwanted? sup speedrun with PLD.
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09b70028d8.jpg

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09b60026e6.jpg

Speedrun CC :P

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09c3002d65.jpg

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09c0003a7f.jpg

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

What did people say about PLD unwanted? sup speedrun with PLD.

Speedrun CC next :D

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Gtfo. Let people live in their delusions. Besides, they're still not done adjusting either apparently especially if they get some more feedback, so we'll see how this all ends up but this community is like a dog, they get something in mind (PLD not wanted) they'll stick to it >.>

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Archer and bard weapon skills now affect Shot recast time.

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http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09c3002cf1.jpg

can't deny that bard/archer gets the short end of the stick and everything else seems to be for the better. paladin still sucks but i'm sure most of us knew that was going to be the case. we can always dream right!?

I suggest an overhaul to Wardrum! (pld/gla's one and only AoE WS). Times have changed; Wardrum just can't compete with the newer job mechanics AoE hate. The ability states it generates "massive enmity" against all foes in the area, but that hardly seems the case anymore.

For heaven's sake my Lv. 38 BLM friend pulled hate from me (Lv. 50 PLD in full enmity gear --> +90 emity) with a simple fire (his gear was less than adequate at the time for damage dealing) leaving all the Lv. 46 mobs hate list in the yellow state. I activate sentinal+wardrum (with on mob on me because i used provoke and had divine veil) and the mobs still remained in the yellow hate state. I then used Rampart to save his life and grab them all back. I learned from this that a simple provoke taunt contained more emity than a move stating it provided "Massive Emity" on a one minute cooldown.

Obviously something is wrong here. Either Wardrum's damage/emityburst needs to be drasticly increased or it's recast reduced to roughly 20-25 seconds to match it's current, actual potency.

The ARC/BRD nerf feels like such a kick in the crotch. We were already bottom of the pile DD wise. I get that we also buff other people but if we were already bottom of the pile then why lower our damage even more?

Like others have said, a lot of us levelled ARC to be a DD and we've been shoehorned into a support role which we've adapted to. Except now they are reducing our DD capabilities even more. Sure we could just stick to ARC instead of BRD but that wouldn't change the fact that we're giving up all our support abilities to still be the bottom DD.

And yes sometimes BRD did out DD other DD's like people have said. However, if all things are equal (i.e. player skill + gear) then that doesn't happen. It requires a good BRD or crappy DD's to happen.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

What did people say about PLD unwanted? sup speedrun with PLD.

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You could do speedruns with PLD tank before the patch, too. It was greatly inferior then and it's still greatly inferior. Both of your final boss screenshots are well over 22 minutes and not even finished yet while everyone's been farming these instances with WAR tank in 17-19 minutes/run for ages now. It's always been about efficiency. I don't know what you thought you were proving.

BRD DPS has dropped by about 10. And it's not like it decreases the worth of BRD in party play. They're still just as important as ever.


It sucks, but its not the worst that could have happened.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

You could do speedruns with PLD tank before the patch, too. It was greatly inferior then and it's still greatly inferior. Both of your final boss screenshots are well over 22 minutes and not even finished yet while everyone's been farming these instances with WAR tank in 17-19 minutes/run for ages now. It's always been about efficiency. I don't know what you thought you were proving.

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They have always been viable and we already proven they are viable before on our all job speedruns. But, people still thinks class stackings are SE's faulty. I just like to remind people everytime they bitch.

Also i am not sure why are trying to pointing out the timer for, it's as simple as proving they are viable and possible. Slower? sure. But if spending 4minutes more means people get to play the job they like. I am all for it. I am not trying to judge you, but maybe you won't be so bitter all the time if you try to play for fun sometimes and still accomplish things, instead of the cookie cutter setup. I apologize though if you happen to actually like the cookie cutter setup.

o_O people are still complaining about the archer adjustment lol? I've been doing leves lving up and I still have yet to notice a difference with the change. People are seriously complaining over nothing and don't even realize the advantage that an ARC/BRD has as a class/job itself.

Let's look at other classes.

PLD. tank with no means of regaining own MP, needs a BRD
WAR, DD/tank depending on role, must stay near enemy to deal dmg
PUG, Single target DD that must stay near taget to deal dmg
DRG, Close range target that deals dmg near enemy
BLM, Heavy Hitting DD that deals damage from afar using MP
WHM, Heals party
BRD, ability to DD, and support party through increasing accuracy, increasing TP gains, refreshing the pty, and the ability to increase HP for a limited amount of time. They also have a wide range of combos that are easy to pull off which is as simple as staying 8 yalms away from the target. They can also deal burst dmg while also using an ability to shed enmity off them.

ARC/BRD offers the following enfeebles that are easily to pull off because of it's simple combo procedures:
Heavy=Decent
Bind=Ok if there is communication
Blind=Good
Bleed=Decent
AOE Stun=Good

Combo Wise they have
Heavy Shot-Leaden Arrow-Wide Volley
Heavy Shot-Quick Nock-Rain of Death
Piercing Arrow-Shadow Bind
Piercing Arrow-Gloom Arrow-Blood Letter

Seriously they have 4 combos, 3 of which are 3 steps, with the recast as
10/30/80 seconds
10/180/30 seconds
20/40 seconds
20/10/80 seconds

On top of that they also obtain the "Barrage" abilities which pretty much gives them a burst strike with their next Light shot action.

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So sure maybe BRD isn't top DD but ask yourself, why should it be, it has support abilities to make up for the fact it doesn't grant high numbers. I just don't really understand what all this complaining is about for ARC/BRDs I've been leveling it before and after this udpate and at lv 40 I have yet to see an issue or an underpowered sense from this class. It's been fun to play and while it's a little more work to pull off combos solo I know how much easier it'll be in a group setting.

But ya, I don't know if it's sarcasm but I realllly don't understand what's the big deal about waiting 2 seconds to use Light Shot again lol.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

They have always been viable and we already proven they are viable before on our all job speedruns. But, people still thinks class stackings are SE's faulty. I just like to remind people everytime they bitch.

Also i am not sure why are trying to pointing out the timer for, it's as simple as proving they are viable and possible. Slower? sure. But if spending 4minutes more means people get to play the job they like. I am all for it. I am not trying to judge you, but maybe you won't be so bitter all the time if you try to play for fun sometimes and still accomplish things, instead of the cookie cutter setup. I apologize though if you happen to actually like the cookie cutter setup.

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Is this a joke post? It's not SE's fault that using PLD is measurably inferior? Really? Come on now. If I'm "bitter" it's because drop rates are abysmal and content has to be cleared hundreds of times. You'd have to be a fool to deliberately make those hundreds of clears take longer than necessary by needlessly using an inferior group composition.

Just gonna pop in here and say that after doing Ifrit a few times tonight, the Benediction range increase is goddamn magical.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

Just gonna pop in here and say that after doing Ifrit a few times tonight, the Benediction range increase is goddamn magical.

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I haven't had a chance to test it out yet but is it a really big increase? o.o

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

I haven't had a chance to test it out yet but is it a really big increase? o.o

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Oh yeah, I have tested it much, but from what I saw it was like x2 Curaga range, it's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Is this a joke post? It's not SE's fault that using PLD is measurably inferior? Really? Come on now. If I'm "bitter" it's because drop rates are abysmal and content has to be cleared hundreds of times. You'd have to be a fool to deliberately make those hundreds of clears take longer than necessary by needlessly using an inferior group composition.

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I never said PLD is superior, do they need improvement? yes, for sure. But, i never touched anything on that subject.

So moving on to actually what i was talking about, There is just more than to efficiency when it comes to doing stuff, when you gather a bunch of folks that thinks like you, nobody minds 4min longer, you were talking as if using a PLD or any inferior setup means we suddenly takes 15min longer and waste a potentially another speedrun.

Grinding darklight isn't fun, grinding darklight while playing a class you do not like is even worse, i am just making it less painful and bearable. I hope the concept of playing for fun isn't new to you.

The other day i went MNK to Garuda, we had very very close kills (by that i mean almost 10min kill and almost did not get speedrun) but nobody minded, because people are having fun trying out new stuff.

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09c3002ed9.jpg

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

But, people still thinks class stackings are SE's faulty. I just like to remind people everytime they bitch.

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And I'll have to step in and remind you that class stacking is very much SE's fault, between class/job design, ability and damage spread between jobs, and encounter design and balancing (or lack thereof). Pacing of content has had a hand in it, and of course speed runs never helped. Sure, you don't care because you run with a shell, but many of us PuG things, and it's not all sunshine and rainbows; not to say it should be the prime way of doing content, but it should also not be the uphill battle it currently is.

Game mechanics influence the way the playerbase does things. This is why the community was so self-mutilating in FFXI as far as player choices went, and you insta-sucked if you went against the grain.

As I've mentioned in other threads, class stacking should occur as freak occurrences that generate laughs while making the dungeon run interesting and doable, and a varied and balanced group comp should be the way most if not all groups aim to do content. XIV has a LONG way to go before that becomes a reality.

PS: As far as the mentioning of how long it takes, the deciding factor should be how your DPSers perform. The tank should not be a factor in that equation at all. It shouldn't matter if the tank is a WAR or PLD or SAM or BST or whatever; the result should be the same. If a run takes longer with a PLD and shorter with a WAR, then there's a balance problem and in needs to be resolved.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I never said PLD is superior, do they need improvement? yes, for sure. But, i never touched anything on that subject.

So moving on to actually what i was talking about, There is just more than to efficiency when it comes to doing stuff, when you gather a bunch of folks that thinks like you, nobody minds 4min longer, you were talking as if using a PLD or any inferior setup means we suddenly takes 15min longer and waste a potentially another speedrun.

Grinding darklight isn't fun, grinding darklight while playing a class you do not like is even worse, i am just making it less painful and bearable. I hope the concept of playing for fun isn't new to you.

The other day i went MNK to Garuda, we had very very close kills (by that i mean almost 10min kill and almost did not get speedrun) but nobody minded, because people are having fun trying out new stuff.

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...09c3002ed9.jpg

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What you say applies for the few initial tries you do things. After 40 runs you kinda get bored annoyed and frustrated from a non efficient party.
You said yourself that farming darklight isnt fun, so explain me how it is more fun to farm it with slower and less efficient party?

For example, take the Ifrit NPC where you trade the lamp. After 200 ifrit you get bored to talk to him 3 times each to get a new lamp. This is called efficiency, why cant they just give you xp and direcly ask if you want another lamp? 1 click , 5 seconds done.

Same goes for jobs, class stacking is SE fault because they seem to not play the game and just listen to people in forums. Again you do things with your friends for fun the first times, thats fine, but after a bit you see that going with 6 blms 1 war 1 whm is 3x times faster than going with other jobs, why on earth would you frustrate yourself, waste time, risk to lose, going with another setup?
Makes no sense.

The more you play the game, the more you repeat the tasks, the more you repeat the content, the less time you wanna spend doing it, so you always try the fastest/more efficient way to do it. Especially cause we all are paying for the game.
I have no fun to waste minutes to speakin to NPCs and do repetitive and boring stuff because they dont have an efficient development team, same thing applies to job balancing and class stacking.

Do 300 ifrits then you'll tell me how boring it is to get a 20 minutes kill when you can kill it in 3 minutes with blms/war.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

And I'll have to step in and remind you that class stacking is very much SE's fault, between class/job design, ability and damage spread between jobs, and encounter design and balancing (or lack thereof). Pacing of content has had a hand in it, and of course speed runs never helped. Sure, you don't care because you run with a shell, but many of us PuG things, and it's not all sunshine and rainbows; not to say it should be the prime way of doing content, but it should also not be the uphill battle it currently is.

Game mechanics influence the way the playerbase does things. This is why the community was so self-mutilating in FFXI as far as player choices went, and you insta-sucked if you went against the grain.

As I've mentioned in other threads, class stacking should occur as freak occurrences that generate laughs while making the dungeon run interesting and doable, and a varied and balanced group comp should be the way most if not all groups aim to do content. XIV has a LONG way to go before that becomes a reality.

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Do you think FFXIV devs never thought of trying to balance it so hard so every class can participate? every contents is doable with every class. But, people still go with the path of least resistance unless they are forced to. (example Garuda where u need both melee damage and magic damage to win)

When people asked for unique-ness, we have to sacrifice balance. Of course they will try so hard to balance everything but fact is, there are never true balance without pulling gimmicks like proccing colors at abbysea that FFXI pulled and force people to bring other class. No game out there has successfully pulled it off properly.

Why do you think that is? because devs are lazy? Balancing is not like flipping table, it's not just adding number here and there.

Everybody here liked the idea of varies class, who doesn't? but nobody.. let me repeat NOBODY has came up with properly written idea on how to do balance things properly. All they do is cry and cry somemore.

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Originally Posted by DarkB

What you say applies for the few initial tries you do things. After 40 runs you kinda get bored annoyed and frustrated from a non efficient party.
You said yourself that farming darklight isnt fun, so explain me how it is more fun to farm it with slower and less efficient party?

For example, take the Ifrit NPC where you trade the lamp. After 200 ifrit you get bored to talk to him 3 times each to get a new lamp. This is called efficiency, why cant they just give you xp and direcly ask if you want another lamp? 1 click , 5 seconds done.

Same goes for jobs, class stacking is SE fault because they seem to not play the game and just listen to people in forums. Again you do things with your friends for fun the first times, thats fine, but after a bit you see that going with 6 blms 1 war 1 whm is 3x times faster than going with other jobs, why on earth would you frustrate yourself, waste time, risk to lose, going with another setup?
Makes no sense.

The more you play the game, the more you repeat the tasks, the more you repeat the content, the less time you wanna spend doing it, so you always try the fastest/more efficient way to do it. Especially cause we all are paying for the game.
I have no fun to waste minutes to speakin to NPCs and do repetitive and boring stuff because they dont have an efficient development team, same thing applies to job balancing and class stacking.

Do 300 ifrits then you'll tell me how boring it is to get a 20 minutes kill when you can kill it in 3 minutes with blms/war.

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The way you perceive this is doing setup in non-cookie cutter setup will results in a very ineffecient runs. No that is not the case. It's 2-4mins late in raids. You don't drop one of your arms when you are suddenly 2-4min late. You still get 5chests like everyone else.

Also 20minutes ifrit means you are doing it with noobs.

That is not the setup issue, that the issue with the people you are playing with.

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Originally Posted by Colino

I really don't see the point of the BRD change. The class is already overlooked by many groups because it doesn't generate enough DPS to be useful, why reduce it even more?

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Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. BRD is essential to any group with a mage, which in my estimation, is ALL of them.

Try a mage burn with no BRD and let me know how far you get.

Part of the problem may simply be so few jobs?
One Healer (WHM)
Two Tanks (WAR/PLD) (no giggling at PLD tank)
One Magic DD (BLM)
One Range DD (BRD)
Two Melee DD (MNK, DRG)

If the target is weak to magic: One choice -- BLM
If the target is too dangerous to be near: Two Choices -- BLM/BRD
If the target is weak to melee: Two choices -- MNK/DRG

Given that a lot of enemies are just too dangerous to get near, but easy to take out from afar, is it no surprise that BLM/BRD is nice to stack?

That being said, what if we had a variety of different jobs that filled the role of 'Ranged DD':
BLM, SMN, BRD, RNG, COR, SCH, RDM

There would be less job stacking... because the issue not really is the desire to stack a job.. but rather, the desire to stack a role. The primary roles being: Tank, Healer, Melee DD, Ranged DD, Support

If we had 5 jobs for each of those roles, I feel stacking would be gone.

(And if those jobs could co-ordinate together for bonuses, such as in Weapon Skill Chains, then there would be more interest in non-stacking).

Great news for DRGs, spamming Surge abilities was driving me to distraction... sometimes I'd just leave it. Thanks devs!

My god i expected them to nerf MNK because of Miser.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Part of the problem may simply be so few jobs?

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I still feel like the game is new, honestly. We have what FFXI by now, less if you just count the jobs, but I feel they are going to add more then just a couple of jobs for 2.0

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Everybody here liked the idea of varies class, who doesn't? but nobody.. let me repeat NOBODY has came up with properly written idea on how to do balance things properly. All they do is cry and cry somemore.

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Really now? Over the past few months I have seen wonderful ideas on how to properly balance jobs and events in this game that SE has never payed attention to. I can give some myself right now.

PLD - Needs an AoE attack (Needs Circle Slash back.), needs more oomph on enmity generation abilities on a large scale.

WAR - It is fine now. SE gimped it but we played with it last night and still a much better tank than PLD. I wouldn't consider a WAR tank OP anymore however.

BLM - I know people will grab the pitch forks and find which window in my home they need to break into, but I do believe BLM's need to be toned down. I mean in particular their AoE damage. Fire damage should spread depending on how many enemies get hit by it. How OP is it you can go into a dungeon and just take a few BLM's and kill all the enemies in a room in a matter of seconds before a melee can barely hit it?

As for dungeons. The idea of speed runs is the core of the problem here. Not to mention the abysmal drop rates. When people are forced to speed through the content as fast as possible at a abysmally low chance of getting a piece of gear with only a 15 minute cool down, of course they are inevitably going to find the quickest way of doing it. It is because they are sick of the content, they don't care about the dungeon itself anymore, it is all about the treasure chests at the end now. I don't know why other MMO's know exactly how dungeon content should be distributed but SE can't get something so simple right.

For bosses, they just really need to tone the AoE down. The biggest problem with Chimera is that it is just not melee friendly at all. Poisons and his AoE potentially instant kills whatever is near him. How do you expect WHM's to keep up with this? You are practically begging people not to use melee in this fight. Chimera is the most unbalanced boss fight I have ever gone against in my MMO career. Sure have AoE in there, but AoE should never be bad to the point that it isn't practical to be near him.

So if you want to make bringing melee and PLD viable, you really need to adjust the conditions of the dungeons. Speed runs screw a lot of things up.

If anything, I wish Darklight didn't drop in dungeons at all. Would be nice if it was just setup that you got points at a dungeon and you got a daily cap on how many points you can get and have a NPC sell you Darklight. This works in other MMO's, don't see why it can't here. You can get more points a dungeon run by setting conditions (Kill Marshall after Princess) or (Lure Chimera into a sandpit three times). Can still do dungeons if you hit the cap, but just won't be rewarded points (In case you wanted to help others). I would put at least a 30 minute timer on the dungeon so it is an incentive not to spam one dungeon, but alternate between AV and CC.

So Char, after all this, rather you agree with my ideas or not, it is still my attempt to help this game go in the right direction. Not all of us just come in here to whine, some of us use these forums only as a way to give developers proper feedback they seek. Rather my tone sounds frustrating or not, I strive to give feedback whenever I can and hope that developers will take into consideration my ideas.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. BRD is essential to any group with a mage, which in my estimation, is ALL of them.

Try a mage burn with no BRD and let me know how far you get.

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I said their DPS is overlooked (or underestimated), not their usefulness as buffers.

But it's cool to say "you don't know what you're talking about" cus it makes you sound real smart.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

For bosses, they just really need to tone the AoE down. The biggest problem with Chimera is that it is just not melee friendly at all. Poisons and his AoE potentially instant kills whatever is near him. How do you expect WHM's to keep up with this? You are practically begging people not to use melee in this fight. Chimera is the most unbalanced boss fight I have ever gone against in my MMO career. Sure have AoE in there, but AoE should never be bad to the point that it isn't practical to be near him.

So if you want to make bringing melee and PLD viable, you really need to adjust the conditions of the dungeons. Speed runs screw a lot of things up.

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You know how clueless you sounds right now? the only AoE's that will hit melee at Chimera is Voice of Ram and it does 1.7k-2k at most, easily avoidable because of the casting time. The other AoE is Poison Sting, very deadly and fast cast, but if you incapacitate the chimera's tail, it will stop using Poison Sting and it suddenly become a very melee friendly fight.

Every fight so far since CC/AV to Garuda is very melee friendly, i am not even sure u have tried to attempt meleeing Chimera properly, by properly i mean not mindlessly punching but playing cautiously making sure skills doesn't get you while attempting to incapacitate its tail.

I am sure we all are after the same thing here, but it's hard to agree with someone that doesn't even deliver the correct information.

and most of the suggestions is very biased to the jobs they wanted to play, nerf the one they hated, So no there aren't really any properly written suggestions. I would love being proved wrong though.

Let just wait for the E3 Video for any clues on new classes or jobs.. But Y.P. told us there where going to be a lot of stuff that we already have in the game, so let just hope that new element are good.

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Originally Posted by Colino

I said their DPS is overlooked (or underestimated), not their usefulness as buffers.

But it's cool to say "you don't know what you're talking about" cus it makes you sound real smart.

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You said their lower DPS makes them not useful, which is completely untrue because they are incredibly useful regardless of their DPS. They could have lower DPS than PLD and BLM burn parties would still need them.

in case you forgot:

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Originally Posted by Colino

I really don't see the point of the BRD change. The class is already overlooked by many groups because it doesn't generate enough DPS to be useful, why reduce it even more?

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Last time I checked, stacking BLM/BRD is most used setup for pretty much all end game content. Therefore the part I put in bold is 100% incorrect.

Insane DPS is not your duty as BRD and it never will be.