[Petition] Have Naoki Yoshida Play Healer and take off the DPS Gloves for a year.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Oh no, anyway.

We have a lot of tanks that don't use mitigation and plenty of DPS players that seemingly do their rotation with their eyes closed after having shuffled their hotbars around. I'm sure we can survive with healers having a skill floor and a skill ceiling too.

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I'm fine with it, I just think they will still complain about healer gameplay. And again, lets not reward players for playing like monkeys. It again sounds like they should have where in normal content, if you don't play properly you shouldn't be able to progress the MSQ. Can't mitigate an tank buster? You died and now you have try again. DPS not hitting buttons properly? Too bad, the boss enraged and no MSQ for you. Didn't reprise the party wide or put shields on the party? Healer and DPS all died and now you have to try again.

I swear that I will never post on this forum again if SCH gets Miasma and Bane back, it is literally that simple SE

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Again, I said a lot of the player base i.e. the playerbase that doesn't step into hard content which I should have clarified. Savage/Ultimate healers won't have an issue with it for sure, but the remainder of the playerbase? The player base that don't understand when AoE rotations will overtake single target damage based on the number of targets? The part of playerbase who don't understand how mitigation works and will pop mitigation at like 20% and then not understand why they still died? The portion of the melee playerbase that fail to hit positionals or use true north? Shield healers that put their shields on the party after damage goes out?

If anything, Damage should be significantly more deadly in normal content and damage should be consistent in savage (think the damage ticks that go out during the entirety of the add phase of P3s) so healer should have to use their entire toolkit properly.

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Yet we haven't been given that, even in P3S. You only can heal so much with how they've handled healing that we still have to DPS 90% of the time. Once you have a healing plan for the fight, you tend to run with it and follow the fight timings and movement. While we do use our whole toolkit in Savage/Ultimate, we don't always unless there's a major screw-up in dungeons. When there is naught importance to heal(either because of how Tanks have taken to healing themselves with their abilities or being supported by DPS), then we DPS - and as you can see in the metrics above, we DPS A LOT. Why? Because we don't have anywhere else to pour our GCDs into unless you'd prefer us to stand there like a Sylphie. Because even with increased damage, we're going to have those times where we don't have anything to heal still. Adding more DPS Buttons isn't going to harm your average Sylphie.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

A lot of the player base would get an enhanced DPS rotation for healers and either:

A) Die more frequently and complain
B) End up letting other people die more then complain

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See SGE, RPR, and SMN in early 6.0. Having new toys to play with, people do die and make stupid mistakes real often but isn't that just part of the learning process? People don't need to play 100% perfectly on their first times. This sort of growth is also one of the reason some players stays longer to play a job because there's a 'progress' to be made.

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C) Not even do the rotation properly and complain because it is hard to do it if you have to heal dumb players

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See DNC rotation? They have one of the most forgiving rotation that do not breaks unless they accidentally press the same button. Surely healers can have something as simple as that? Anything, at all. To break. The current monotony. Pressing 1 button for 80% of any encounter is ... *wheeze*

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D) Not even DPS, since there is a large number of players that literally just sit there not casting a single DPS ability right now

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See rewd's.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

I'm fine with it, I just think they will still complain about healer gameplay. And again, lets not reward players for playing like monkeys. It again sounds like they should have where in normal content, if you don't play properly you shouldn't be able to progress the MSQ. Can't mitigate an tank buster? You died and now you have try again. DPS not hitting buttons properly? Too bad, the boss enraged and no MSQ for you. Didn't reprise the party wide or put shields on the party? Healer and DPS all died and now you have to try again.

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The thing is, there's always going to be a section of the playable that is incapable of just about anything beyond remembering to breath.

We had the same level of complaints back when healers had cleric stance, we had the same amount of complaints when 2.0 Amdapor Keep and 2.1 Pharos Sirius were legitimate challenges and later on when they were both mindlessly easy.

Most will adapt just fine and the sad reality is it'll be the same people failing either way especially since a little more DPS complexity most certainly isn't remotely as perilous to an inexperienced healer as Cleric Stance was.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Yet we haven't been given that, even in P3S. You only can heal so much with how they've handled healing that we still have to DPS 90% of the time. Once you have a healing plan for the fight, you tend to run with it and follow the fight timings and movement. While we do use our whole toolkit in Savage/Ultimate, we don't always unless there's a major screw-up in dungeons. When there is naught importance to heal(either because of how Tanks have taken to healing themselves with their abilities or being supported by DPS), then we DPS - and as you can see in the metrics above, we DPS A LOT. Why? Because we don't have anywhere else to pour our GCDs into unless you'd prefer us to stand there like a Sylphie. Because even with increased damage, we're going to have those times where we don't have anything to heal still. Adding more DPS Buttons isn't going to harm your average Sylphie.

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That's my point. They should have it like that. There should be constant damage in fights and raid wide damage should be done with multiple hits. You should have that damage aura active during the entirety of p3s INCLUDING during FoA, FoF, and Death's Toll so it strips off shields because its pulsing for like 5k damage. Fourfold chains in P1s should ramp in damage so that final chain should hitting the entire raid for an amount similar to wardens wrath with zero mit. Warden's wrath should apply 30 second bleed on the entire raid. The Final intemperance explosion should outright be close to killing players unless they are topped off. P2s you could have 2 random non-tank players get a dot that needs to be spot healed otherwise those players may die. There are myriads of things they can do to make healing interesting instead of making healing matter only 10% of the fight. If you had it like then you could incorporate further utility in other jobs. One of the coolest things I think about RPR is their defensive applying a hot to their party. Proper use of 3rd eye for SAM could add an AoE heal that is for half of the damage mitigated which could reward the SAM and their party for their proper play by not only reducing the damage and providing more resource for damage but to help out other roles. It creates an awesome synergy of encouraging and rewarding proper play.

You then bring that design for dungeons but in a more reasonable fashion. I'm not saying you should have to invul every tank buster or you straight up die or that party wides need a 2 min healer CD to survive or that you need to kill the boss within a minute or you die. Just something more because I remeber hitting 590 ilvl on my GNB and I would just eat 3 vuln stacks in order to maintain uptime and still be in no worry of dying so long as my healer doesn't turn off their monitor/TV and does the odd heal here and there.

[QUOTE=Yeastyloins;5966774
If anything, Damage should be significantly more deadly in normal content and damage should be constant in savage (think the damage ticks that go out during the entirety of the add phase of P3s) so healer should have to use their entire toolkit properly.[/QUOTE]

And again, we've asked for more frequent damage.

Square Enix and Yoshi P has said either go do ultimate (which there is a thread of) and no.

We are not getting more damage. Period.

As for the rest of your post, I could type up a long rant but it is going to boil down to this:

If healers are supposed to be stuck with 1 dps (and a dot) for most of the time when they get good at the job because the player base as a whole believes we healers do not deserve to have a higher skill ceiling because they fear a wipe so much, why do tanks not suffer the same issue? If all roles dps, tank and healer can have bad players who don't know how to play their jobs yet tanks don't have pruning to focus on nothing but mitigation (1 dps button and one aoe button to hold aggro and double their mitigation options, like healers have 1 dot 1 nuke and 8-10 healing spells) and DPS aren't reduced to a 1 button press rotation (akin to SMN's macro which plays the game for them) why is HEALER the sole role stuck with it?

This is called a double standard. Tanks and DPS get to have depth, but healers do not? Why?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

And again, we've asked for more frequent damage.

Square Enix and Yoshi P has said either go do ultimate (which there is a thread of) and no.

We are not getting more damage. Period.

As for the rest of your post, I could type up a long rant but it is going to boil down to this:

If healers are supposed to be stuck with 1 dps (and a dot) for most of the time when they get good at the job because the player base as a whole believes we healers do not deserve to have a higher skill ceiling because they fear a wipe so much, why do tanks not suffer the same issue? If all roles dps, tank and healer can have bad players who don't know how to play their jobs yet tanks don't have pruning to focus on nothing but mitigation (1 dps button and one aoe button to hold aggro and double their mitigation options, like healers have 1 dot 1 nuke and 8-10 healing spells) and DPS aren't reduced to a 1 button press rotation (akin to SMN's macro which plays the game for them) why is HEALER the sole role stuck with it?

This is called a double standard. Tanks and DPS get to have depth, but healers do not? Why?

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Because your depth should be focused on healing rather than damage. The fact that nothing has been done to do this on the part of the developers is horrendous issue and is on par with some of WoW's more terrible game design choices like bowered power and suggests that Yoshi P should not have a hand related to anything in the PvE realm of this game. However if I had a choice between healers getting a more indepth dps rotation vs encounters requiring more demanding healing, then I would like the latter since if healers get too crazy of a DPS toolkit then the overall game design will get further simplified. Do I think healers would be fine get maybe like 2 or 3 more buttons that have an interaction? Sure. Should it be as extensive and in depth as tanks, let alone DPS? No.

Tanks in my opinion should have significant costs to their defensives, something like Heart of Corundum costing a cartridge, Bloodwhetting should consume all of your gauge and the healing/shield effect is based on the amount of gauge consumed. All defensives should be a GCD as well, instead of something you're weaving in your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Because your depth should be focused on healing rather than damage. The fact that nothing has been done to do this on the part of the developers is horrendous issue and is on par with some of WoW's more terrible game design choices like bowered power and suggests that Yoshi P should not have a hand related to anything in the PvE realm of this game. However if I had a choice between healers getting a more indepth dps rotation vs encounters requiring more demanding healing, then I would like the latter since if healers get too crazy of a DPS toolkit then the overall game design will get further simplified. Do I think healers would be fine get maybe like 2 or 3 more buttons that have an interaction? Sure. Should it be as extensive and in depth as tanks, let alone DPS? No.

Tanks in my opinion should have significant costs to their defensives, something like Heart of Corundum costing a cartridge, Bloodwhetting should consume all of your gauge and the healing/shield effect is based on the amount of gauge consumed. All defensives should be a GCD as well, instead of something you're weaving in your rotation.

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"Healers should get their kit depth from healing" flies in the face of basically all RPG design save attrition MMOs.

Redesign every fight in the game or return the DPS buttons healers had in the past? Hmm, hard choice...

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

I swear that I will never post on this forum again if SCH gets Miasma and Bane back, it is literally that simple SE

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I rly want Shadowflare back, it was such a cool spell imo I was sad to see it go.
But yes Bane too, spreading the dots felt so unique and was legit fun.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Because your depth should be focused on healing rather than damage. The fact that nothing has been done to do this on the part of the developers is horrendous issue and is on par with some of WoW's more terrible game design choices like bowered power and suggests that Yoshi P should not have a hand related to anything in the PvE realm of this game. However if I had a choice between healers getting a more indepth dps rotation vs encounters requiring more demanding healing, then I would like the latter

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Redesign every fight in the game or return the DPS buttons healers had in the past? Hmm, hard choice...

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^Pretty much this.

Sad reality we live in.

The absolute BEST SE can do without fundamentally changing the whole game is to:

• Reduce the amount of skills in our healing kit and rebalance the rest as necessary
• Give us an extra 2-3 dps options because we're going to have down time regardless
• Give SGE and AST better identities that separate them from SCH and WHM respectively (make SGE a heal by doing damage healer and AST a time based healer - ie. regens)
• Give meaningful support options back to all healers with changes as needed (Protect, Selene, a variant of old cards, something for SGE, general debuff/buff options)

And that's work. And we're healers. Clearly we don't deserve to have effort thrown at us /s

I'll take "3 Dps Options At Minimum" for 200 Alex!

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Redesign every fight in the game or return the DPS buttons healers had in the past? Hmm, hard choice...

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Didn't realize advocating for better game design in the future is bad but ok. Lets add 3 buttons and do nothing about current encounter design then.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Advocate for future content to be more engaging or add 3 buttons that 90% of the players wont press but still complain about gameplay. Hmm, hard choice.

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A question for you: Have you considered what even makes healers engaging? If you can't answer that question then I don't think you have an argument.

It varies from person to person I suppose. What you find engaging as a healer is not going to be the same for me. If I'm playing a healer, I want to be concerned with engaging with my tool kit, where it be efficiently healing damage utilizing the minimal amount of resources or if I am playing more of shield healer then properly shielding damage in a way to mitigate the most amount of damage utilizing the minimal amount of resources. For me damage is a low priority thing for me. It's cool to have time to do some damage but if I wanted to deal damage, I'd just play a DPS right? That being said, I am a fan when damage is incorporated into the kit like how SGE functions. Though I wish it was more like how a disc priest in WoW functions.

I kinda just want to heal more when I am playing Healer tbh.
Yes the DPS is boring on Healer but I also feel like it's a result of not having to do enough healing.
If you had to heal more I think the DPS issue would be a lot more bearable.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Didn't realize advocating for better game design in the future is bad but ok. Lets add 3 buttons and do nothing about current encounter design then.

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Its admirable, but as I've said unlikely. They would have to change encounters from ARR to EW and the healer kits as well.

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be worth while in the long run. I'm arguing that the reason why we aren't going to get it is because of how much would actually have to change. Dungeons from lv15 would need to be progressively harder in a way that doesn't alienate newer players while also not stone walling them so they can progress what SE deems as the most important thing: the story and that I personally would like something done that we can realistically see in a patch cycle (read: expansion).

Making 7.0 actually difficult in response to player feed back is a bad thing. Even if the difficulty properly scaled, because the previous expansions didn't do that. I've gone on record saying that I made it from 1-80 in Shb without even properly learning my kit in dungeons. Making 7.0 the start of where things matter? Yeah, that isn't going to fly with players, and they'd be right.

And even if they did decide to take the time to make our healing kit actually matter in content from 15-90, good healers are STILL going to have down time. They're STILL going to be bored.

Point is, I'm not bashing your desire just to be mean, I'm trying to get realistic changes. Do I want a more engaging healing kit? Yes. Do I want encounter design to engage healers and tanks with mechanics specifically for them so that they aren't green and blue dps? Yes. Do I realistically see SE doing that? No.

Why? Because its been asked for, they haven't listened, and at this point, we'll take the low hanging fruit if it means s*** gets done.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Its admirable, but as I've said unlikely. They would have to change encounters from ARR to EW and the healer kits as well.

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be worth while in the long run. I'm arguing that the reason why we aren't going to get it is because of how much would actually have to change. Dungeons from lv15 would need to be progressively harder in a way that doesn't alienate newer players while also not stone walling them so they can progress what SE deems as the most important thing: the story and that I personally would like something done that we can realistically see in a patch cycle (read: expansion).

Making 7.0 actually difficult in response to player feed back is a bad thing. Even if the difficulty properly scaled, because the previous expansions didn't do that. I've gone on record saying that I made it from 1-80 in Shb without even properly learning my kit in dungeons. Making 7.0 the start of where things matter? Yeah, that isn't going to fly with players, and they'd be right.

And even if they did decide to take the time to make our healing kit actually matter in content from 15-90, good healers are STILL going to have down time. They're STILL going to be bored.

Point is, I'm not bashing your desire just to be mean, I'm trying to get realistic changes. Do I want a more engaging healing kit? Yes. Do I want encounter design to engage healers and tanks with mechanics specifically for them so that they aren't green and blue dps? Yes. Do I realistically see SE doing that? No.

Why? Because its been asked for, they haven't listened, and at this point, we'll take the low hanging fruit if it means s*** gets done.

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The problem is if you keep taking low hanging fruit, guess what you get in return from that point on? Low-hanging fruit. It's that mind set that got WoW partially to the place it is now. It's a very death by a thousand cuts sort of thing. Again, if they add DPS options for healers, I won't hate it, but if all of you healers who have been advocating for changes then stop advocating for change because you got the game design equivalent of a weekly pizza party at work instead of a pay raise then it harms the game in the long run.

Additionaly, they made changes to the lower level dungeons, busters have telegraphs and many abilities have been changed already in some fashion. Hell, they revamped the Main Scenario dungeons to where they ask the player to contend with harder mechanics and everyone I've spoken to has had positive thoughts about it.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I kinda just want to heal more when I am playing Healer tbh.
Yes the DPS is boring on Healer but I also feel like it's a result of not having to do enough healing.
If you had to heal more I think the DPS issue would be a lot more bearable.

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i want to agree, but fundamentally healing in this game cant work without dps. to me what makes healing fun is becoming more efficient at it, because you could clear literally any heal check in any content just spamming medica the entire time. dps is THE reward for becoming a good healer, an efficient healer.

i do agree that things barely do any damage, even all the way up in ultimates at most i cast like 30% healing gcds. we need a lot more frequent and sustained damage for healers to feel anything like healers. i think at the very least we need enough damage that both healers' ogcds get quickly spent, and THEN add more damage so both need to gcd heal at least slightly often.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

The problem is if you keep taking low hanging fruit, guess what you get in return from that point on? Low-hanging fruit. It's that mind set that got WoW partially to the place it is now. It's a very death by a thousand cuts sort of thing. Again, if they add DPS options for healers, I won't hate it, but if all of you healers who have been advocating for changes then stop advocating for change because you got the game design equivalent of a weekly pizza party at work instead of a raise then it harms the game in the long run.

Additionaly, they made changes to the lower level dungeons, busters have telegraphs and many abilities have been changed already in some fashion. Hell, they revamped the Main Scenario dungeons to where they ask the player to contend with harder mechanics and everyone I've spoken to has had positive thoughts about it.

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They have feedback in spades if they want it. And I've already said what I wanted from them:

• Diverse AST cards
• Make AST a proper time based healer with more Macrocosmos/ES/Exaltation OR make it a stance dancer where Diurnal and Noctural are a toggle (NO I don't want Double Cast from PvP)
• Bring back Time Dilation to either extend DoTs or HoTs on players or a way to speed up our DoTs/HoTs as a way to do burst damage (or both)

For all healers - I want an increase in damage for 90+ dungeons instead of dribble they gave us in Shb/EW so far.
If a healer can clear Mt. Gulg/Amarout and Dead Ends, further 80 and 90 content should be at their difficulty at minimum.

I also want them to stop using Ultimate as an excuse as well as "new tier". People doing EX/Savage by this point are doing so for a challenge so make them challenging for all roles. Give healers proper heal checks and tanks more mitigation management.

The bare minimum I expect from SE is more dps options. What I want from them is much, much more and by this point I'd be better off looking for another game with how much they seem to care about healer design.

...its just that there is no other MMO to go to

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Because your depth should be focused on healing rather than damage

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

If I'm playing a healer, I want to be concerned with engaging with my tool kit, where it be efficiently healing damage utilizing the minimal amount of resources

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Do you see where these two priorities conflict with one another? You want the meat of healer engagement to come from the part of the kit you're actively seeking to spend the least amount of time using. This is why applying the DPS job mentality to healers doesn't work: DPS do damage, so healers heal right?

No. Wrong. Filling healer kits with a dozen copies of boring healing spells makes them less engaging. Healing is at its peak when it's about multitasking. Keeping an eye on health while doing something else. And that something else might be...

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

It's cool to have time to do some damage but if I wanted to deal damage, I'd just play a DPS right?

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The skill ceiling is doing less healing and having more downtime. So you want the act of gaining skill in the healer role to cause you to shift focus from the purposefully entertaining part of your kit, to the less entertaining part.

This "healers should get engagement from healing and you should play a DPS if you want to do something else" approach to healer design is exactly why healers are boring.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

In my eyes there are two ways to make the role more enjoyable

1) Increase outgoing damage in content such that you need to heal more. Or reduce potency of oGCD heals to achieve a similar effect.

2) Leave healing as is and add more DPS buttons. MAYBE remove a couple healing oGCDs to allow more button space for DPS skills. (while adjusting potency of those remaining)

They really don't want to stress new healers so 2 is the only realistic option. Also (1) wouldn't do anything for old content.

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Unfortunately, 2 isn't a realistic option either since Yoshi-P shot it down in an Endwalker Media Tour group interview with MrHappy and Reddit. To quote:

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Mrhappy1227: Healers in Final Fantasy XIV often discuss how often they are casting DPS spells despite being healers. Often nicknaming jobs like White Mage a “Glare Mage” as an example. The Media Tour build has some new healing skills that also have damage components to them. Has the team taken any feedback from the players on improving interactivity with the healers? Whether that be more interesting DPS skills or more prominent healing requirements.

Yoshida: So I totally understand that those healers that have a very high player skill level and they’ve really mastered their jobs go into these different raids or battles and when they do have some downtime between their heals they do cast more offensive spells. Some of them desire to have more technical aspects of it so they are more active and I totally understand that sentiment. But of course the basis of a healer is to heal so I think the development team and I have this thinking of getting that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work.

That being said I don’t think we would do any sort of dramatic addition of offensive skills moving forward. By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” or some players might be aggressive like “oh hey you have an offensive skill in your kit, why don’t you use it?” and I don’t think that’s optimal either.

But of course we do have the new job, Sage, which will allow for this unique gameplay where if you land an attack it heals at the same time. Or if there’s like a particular barrier ability that you cast and once that’s depleted it increases the resource which could lead to an attack which is very unique. I think players would be interested in trying that out for sure.

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Based off the interview, Yoshi-P believes the following:

1. Only Healers at a very high skill level are capable of DPSing a lot
2. Healers should find healing exhilarating despite the fact that they refuse to increase outgoing damage to avoid stressing baby healers, even in Savage and Ultimate
3. Adding DPS options to a Healers kit will lead to new players feeling pressured to DPS in parties
4. DPS is totally a unique style of DPS oriented Healer

The Healer Role is always gonna be straight up fucked unless Yoshi-P actually starts listening to the community. Outgoing damage will not be increased because it could scare off new players, and his statement of "go play Ultimate" is equal parts bullshit and false. DPS tools will not be increased because it could scare off new players. The feedback and complaints of veteran Healers, the people actually invested in the Role, don't matter to Yoshi-P and his dev team because he only cares about new player accessibility, even to the detriment of endgame content.

"By having these offensive abilities some players, like new healers, might feel pressured like “oh do I have to have good DPS while I’m healing?” "

Maybe... don't design Savage encounters that require healer DPS then? Do these developers even play their own game?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Do you see where these two priorities conflict with one another? You want the meat of healer engagement to come from the part of the kit you're actively seeking to spend the least amount of time using. This is why applying the DPS job mentality to healers doesn't work: DPS do damage, so healers heal right?

No. Wrong. Filling healer kits with a dozen copies of boring healing spells makes them less engaging. Healing is at its peak when it's about multitasking. Keeping an eye on health while doing something else. And that something else might be...



The skill ceiling is doing less healing and having more downtime. So you want the act of gaining skill in the healer role to cause you to shift focus from the purposefully entertaining part of your kit, to the less entertaining part.

This "healers should get engagement from healing and you should play a DPS if you want to do something else" approach to healer design is exactly why healers are boring.

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Ideally, I would want incoming raid wide damage to be so high and constant in the game you are almost unable to do anything but heal or shield. It just seems weird that SE would make content that actively tells players not to heal rather than create encounters that require healers to use their whole kit.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Ideally, I would want incoming raid wide damage to be so high and constant in the game you are almost unable to do anything but heal or shield. It just seems weird that SE would make content that actively tells players not to heal rather than create encounters that require healers to use their whole kit.

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Given a full suite of interesting and interactive tools at our disposal to counter that high and constant damage, that design could be fun and interesting. I wish I could say that I think it could happen some day, in FFXIV, but I can't, in good conscience, say that we will when YoshiP has already gone on record saying that he won't do that because he worries about [newer/more casual] healers being unable to keep up with the pressure. So, unfortunately, we're left with seeing an Akh Morn once or twice in an expansion or having the tanks give us artificial difficulty by being undergeared and underskilled themselves, whether on purpose or not.

Thus, we need to turn to other possibilities. Requesting more DPS buttons (but not necessarily more damage output, which is a very separate thing) is low hanging fruit, to you, but it's actually higher than what we're being given now. If you consider that asking for higher healing requirements is the tippy-top of the tree, then having been given an action kit where 3/5ths can sometimes feel like button bloat is the lowest hanging fruit, matching well with the height of the skill floor that it's been designed for. We're talking rolling on the ground away from Isaac Newton low. Asking for a DPS rotation is at least still on the tree.

Note that we have several threads on the Healer forums and in the General Discussion forums discussing our options on how to obtain a better gameplay experience and providing feedback to the development team, and these threads and discussions have been going on for many years now. At this point, because we only ever really seem to be ignored or misrepresented, I'm hoping that a GM will one day just copy-paste exactly as written and pass it forward to directly to the dev team, and that someone on the Dev Team reads it and turns to YoshiP with enough courage and gall to say "Hey, could you like... not?"

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Ideally, I would want incoming raid wide damage to be so high and constant in the game you are almost unable to do anything but heal or shield. It just seems weird that SE would make content that actively tells players not to heal rather than create encounters that require healers to use their whole kit.

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So you want the WoW attrition healing model. That would require a complete overhaul of not only the encounter design, but also the healer kits.

It's a fine preference to have, but I personally hate attrition healing. Constantly spamming healing spells is not what I consider the fun part of healing. It's also really uncommon in RPGs as a whole.

If you design healers so that they need to constantly spam healing spells to survive, you dramatically raise the skill floor. With the current crop of Sylphies running the role, how do you implement this? There are people playing healers with a genuine disinterest in gaining any sort of skill. YoshiP wants them to still clear most content. If you tune content such that low skilled healers can clear it, what are high skilled healers doing? It's not constantly spamming healing spells, because the high skilled healers get through the dungeon with... let's say a high skilled healer does half the healing that a low skilled healer does. What's the high skilled healer doing with that half of their time they've carved out for themselves? Picking their nose? Casting Glare a million times?

The skill gulf in this game naturally creates downtime. It naturally creates downtime in nearly all RPGs, except those with attrition healing spamfests as their healing model. That downtime *is* the skill ceiling. It's the reward for playing well.

It needs to -not- be one button over and over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Ideally, I would want incoming raid wide damage to be so high and constant in the game you are almost unable to do anything but heal or shield. It just seems weird that SE would make content that actively tells players not to heal rather than create encounters that require healers to use their whole kit.

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There was a game like that it had the best action based combat in the entire industry even up to when it eventually shut down, only being slightly rivaled by Black Desert but because it wasn't a trinity system it could never really be compared.

FFXIV combat is a step above or maybe below combat in FFXV due to the intentional design limitations inherit with their vision of how combat should be there is no middle ground in FFXIV combat it either kills you or it doesn't.
This creates a situation where the skill ceiling is demonstrably increased if you want to have any semblance of difficulty for healers and also why they can't effectively just INCREASE THE DAMAGE.

What they really need to do is decrease the potency & effectiveness of our healing across the board and add random intermittent damage. That's just one change of many that would need to happen.
Another issue is how they deal with death, how the enrage mechanic is designed, and the fact healers only manage health.
Managing health is the bare minimum to be a healer not the maximum extent of their capabilities.

FFXIV really falls short simply in the healer genre because they're scared of change and balancing, don't have enough staff and simply have their bread and butter and are happy with it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

So you want the WoW attrition healing model. That would require a complete overhaul of not only the encounter design, but also the healer kits.

If you design healers so that they need to constantly spam healing spells to survive, you dramatically raise the skill floor. With the current crop of Sylphies running the role, how do you implement this? There are people playing healers with a genuine disinterest in gaining any sort of skill. YoshiP wants them to still clear most content. If you tune content such that low skilled healers can clear it, what are high skilled healers doing? It's not constantly spamming healing spells, because the high skilled healers get through the dungeon with... let's say a high skilled healer does half the healing that a low skilled healer does. What's the high skilled healer doing with that half of their time they've carved out for themselves? Picking their nose? Casting Glare a million times?

The skill gulf in this game naturally creates downtime. It naturally creates downtime in nearly all RPGs, except those with attrition healing spamfests as their healing model. That downtime *is* the skill ceiling. It's the reward for playing well.

It needs to -not- be one button over and over and over again.

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I wouldn't mean you need to spam heals but I'd assume the optimize version of this is provided a mechanic check isn't coming out coming out you might reapply a regen or party wide shields about every 5-7 GCDs, dps for a bit, throw a single target heal on a tank, kind of contending with that loop until mechanics come out.

As for dungeons it would tuning damage numbers a bit higher. I think trash packs are fine for the most part but bosses seem severely neutered. Let's say for example a level 90 dungeon party wide could hit for about 50k unmitigated. That is a hefty amount that if you take too long to heal will cause problems but its still survivable unless you are min-ilvl. Then you have shields if you're a shield healer, and if not you have mitigation from all roles in various configurations such as feint/addle/reprisal and other defenses like Hard Light or Shake. Even if it's just small thing, you've taken that 50k party wide down to 40k which makes it even more manageable. Tank busters should be things that would outright kill a DPS/Healer player but should be able to drop a tank to like 15-20% with auto hitting for like 10% of a tanks health. Then with some light but focused healing combined with the sustain elements of each tank plus their unique defensives, you would get more engaging gameplay not just for healers but tanks as well, but at a level where it is very manageable for less experience players to get used to it.

That's the ideal world I'd like to advocate for.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

There was a game like that it had the best action based combat in the entire industry even up to when it eventually shut down, only being slightly rivaled by Black Desert but because it wasn't a trinity system it could never really be compared.

FFXIV combat is a step above or maybe below combat in FFXV due to the intentional design limitations inherit with their vision of how combat should be there is no middle ground in FFXIV combat it either kills you or it doesn't.
This creates a situation where the skill ceiling is demonstrably increased if you want to have any semblance of difficulty for healers and also why they can't effectively just INCREASE THE DAMAGE.

What they really need to do is decrease the potency & effectiveness of our healing across the board and add random intermittent damage. That's just one change of many that would need to happen.
Another issue is how they deal with death, how the enrage mechanic is designed, and the fact healers only manage health.
Managing health is the bare minimum to be a healer not the maximum extent of their capabilities.

FFXIV really falls short simply in the healer genre because they're scared of change and balancing, don't have enough staff and simply have their bread and butter and are happy with it.

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This is what I'd be really interested, though enrages I feel are fine in most cases. The only place I found enrage to be annoying is something like door boss of P4s where 3 back to back decolations is a bit rough. More than doable but it seems annoying in what you need to in order to contend with especially since you can have situations of people spread all over the place after taking heavy damage such if the final Pinax was poison.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

I wouldn't mean you need to spam heals but I'd assume the optimize version of this is provided a mechanic check isn't coming out coming out you might reapply a regen or party wide shields about every 5-7 GCDs, dps for a bit, throw a single target heal on a tank, kind of contending with that loop until mechanics come out.

As for dungeons it would tuning damage numbers a bit higher. I think trash packs are fine for the most part but bosses seem severely neutered. Let's say for example a level 90 dungeon party wide could hit for about 50k unmitigated. That is a hefty amount that if you take too long to heal will cause problems but its still survivable unless you are min-ilvl. Then you have shields if you're a shield healer, and if not you have mitigation from all roles in various configurations such as feint/addle/reprisal and other defenses like Hard Light or Shake. Even if it's just small thing, you've taken that 50k party wide down to 40k which makes it even more manageable. Tank busters should be things that would outright kill a DPS/Healer player but should be able to drop a tank to like 15-20% with auto hitting for like 10% of a tanks health. Then with some light but focused healing combined with the sustain elements of each tank plus their unique defensives, you would get more engaging gameplay not just for healers but tanks as well, but at a level where it is very manageable for less experience players to get used to it.

That's the ideal world I'd like to advocate for.

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If you made dungeon healing require triple the time investment it does now, most dungeons would see me spending about 10% of my GCDs on healing spells instead of zero. And the newbie healers would scream bloody murder that dungeons are now "impossible".

The investment required to turn FFXIV into an attrition healing game would upend the entire game from ARR through Endwalker in order to make it work like that. And even then, once you've mastered your healing down to a flawless use of resources, your reward is....................Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare.

Buffs debuffs. A more robust damage kit. Anything. Anything but spamming one button over and over and over again. Downtime is your reward for improving at the role. Rewards shouldn't be tedious chores. They should be impactful and fun. Healer mains aren't engaged through casting more healing spells. They're engaged through minimizing them and mastering their downtime activities. Simply forcing healers to use Regen and Medica 2 more often doesn't make them fun.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

This is what I'd be really interested, though enrages I feel are fine in most cases. The only place I found enrage to be annoying is something like door boss of P4s where 3 back to back decolations is a bit rough. More than doable but it seems annoying in what you need to in order to contend with especially since you can have situations of people spread all over the place after taking heavy damage such if the final Pinax was poison.

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I was specifically talking about how with the way enrage is designed in this game it creates an overlaying requirement that damage is king because enrage is effectively just a RESET button.
The fight lasts this long and only this long.
This is why healers can't just heal and why there's only ONE right way the game wants to be played.

Enrage would have to be redesigned for the game to function the way YoshiP wants it to but that would create more problems than it's worth imo due to the fact enrage design is a byproduct of their combat design, merely a symptom not the cause.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Healer mains aren't engaged through casting more healing spells. They're engaged through minimizing them and mastering their downtime activities. Simply forcing healers to use Regen and Medica 2 more often doesn't make them fun.

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To be fair it's because the healing spells are simply designed in a very boring way.

If your heal was literally a boomerang that shot in front of you for X amount of distance and if you aimed it properly it would hit twice but if you didn't it would only hit once you would be fairly engaged if most of your healing spells functioned in a similar way.

https://tera.fandom.com/wiki/Boomerang_Pulse

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

To be fair it's because the healing spells are simply designed in a very boring way.

If your heal was literally a boomerang that shot in front of you for X amount of distance and if you aimed it properly it would hit twice but if you didn't it would only hit once you would be fairly engaged if most of your healing spells functioned in a similar way.

https://tera.fandom.com/wiki/Boomerang_Pulse

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The healing kits are uninteresting, it's true. It still doesn't solve the downtime issue. Spending 80+% of your time casting healing spells is just not feasible in a game that wants to appeal to a wide range of difficulties and skill levels. One player's 80% is another's 20%. The reward for optimizing your healing needs to be significantly more interesting than "oo yay, I get to cast Glare 157 times in this fight instead of 156. Can't wait to figure out how to get even more efficient so I can get 158 Glares."

Cutting the downtime frequency by a massive amount doesn't change the fact that the reward for high skill expression is one stupid spell you get to spam at enemies.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

If your heal was literally a boomerang that shot in front of you for X amount of distance and if you aimed it properly it would hit twice but if you didn't it would only hit once you would be fairly engaged if most of your healing spells functioned in a similar way.

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It's true in concept, but in practice, that kind of 'skillshot' mechanic would probably be quite cursed in FFXIV's engine.

Which in fact, the cursed game engine is part of what constrains design even further to be so repetitive... only so many types of ideas can even reasonably function.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

It's true in concept, but in practice, that kind of 'skillshot' mechanic would probably be quite cursed in FFXIV's engine.

Which in fact, the cursed game engine is part of what constrains design even further to be so repetitive... only so many types of ideas can even reasonably function.

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i much rather have them try and fail, and then refine new ideas than release ogcd medica #4 and ogcd cure #5.

look at earthly star or collective unconscious. both of those were a clunky mess because of how server ticks and weaving used to work. but over the expansions they sanded the rough edges.

i dont buy that the dev team is really scared of giving healers interesting skills, rather than just being uncreative. (its probably the third option: uninterested)

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

If you made dungeon healing require triple the time investment it does now, most dungeons would see me spending about 10% of my GCDs on healing spells instead of zero. And the newbie healers would scream bloody murder that dungeons are now "impossible".

The investment required to turn FFXIV into an attrition healing game would upend the entire game from ARR through Endwalker in order to make it work like that. And even then, once you've mastered your healing down to a flawless use of resources, your reward is....................Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare.

Buffs debuffs. A more robust damage kit. Anything. Anything but spamming one button over and over and over again. Downtime is your reward for improving at the role. Rewards shouldn't be tedious chores. They should be impactful and fun. Healer mains aren't engaged through casting more healing spells. They're engaged through minimizing them and mastering their downtime activities. Simply forcing healers to use Regen and Medica 2 more often doesn't make them fun.

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I mean is it a wild thought to ask the player (using WHM as an example) to cast Medica and then Medica 2 after a raid wide then go back to DPSing? Or to track HoTs and refresh Regen on the tank that is getting autoed and saving something like a lily or tetra for after the tank buster? I don't think that's too much of a tall order for the players to understand.

Again, I'm not against adding some stuff to add to downtime gameplay but at the same time they can tweak numbers so you're a healer and not a green DPS. I'd like the similar treatment for Tanks where the responsibility of Reprising raid wides matters, using short niche defensive CDs to mitigate busters while playing around with your longer defensives/unique mitigation options to contend with auto damage so your healer doesn't need to baby sit them.

There's something therapeutic about pushing that one button over and over. I don't know why but I find it calming. Maybe I'm autistic, I don't know. I do know I am in the complete minority and I would be lying if I didn't have a blast with Heavensward and ARR scholar. Even Stormblood was still fun (quickened aetherflow?) and still had shadow flare that people used over sacred soil. Because it was better. What did they get rid of? The one that did slow and damage, because gods forbid we have anything remotely interesting for dps.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I mean, sure, if you're only doing notes on GCDs and vs 1 target in boss raids/endgame, sure. But, most of my use is in dungeons/fates where AoE and mobility is much more important and should factor in. WHM's AoE is aweful compared to SGE.

So, while they SHOULD be the same numbers in general, the way that damage happens is quite different. The statement that it is identical to other healers I stand by being incorrect, and not a good way to describe the job to someone looking to play it. It's just simply not "same as whm".

The chart doesn't take into account Sage's mobility, nor the fact that most of Sage's abilities are instant cast, which offers a very different play experience.

And again, using cast time and recast times, you can get a 6-action AoE burst in the same amount of time you could 3 holy casts. And be running like an idiot while doing it.

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Sage AoE tools: Standard nuke AoE, 45s CD dps gain, damage ability tied to damage that your best way to farm it is in downtime, Pneuma
Whm AoE tools: Standard nuke AoE, 45s CD dps gain, damage ability tied to damage that your best way to farm it is in downtime

Aside Pneuma they have the exact same number of tools and considering its a 2m cd it doesnt change the rotation significantly enough to create a difference, the mobility argument must be a joke, no one gives a f... about mobility in dungeons cause packs once assembled dont move and bosses are so braindead that the slidecasting from the main nuke is far more than enough and the whole:

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using cast time and recast times, you can get a 6-action AoE burst in the same amount of time you could 3 holy casts.

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Show you have no idea what you're talking about, Holy and any of the AoE tools of Sage are standard cooldowns and as such both can fit the exact same number of GCDs in burst phase, in fact if anything Whm would be miles more bursty by virtue of using Missery->Assize->Holy->Holy which is far more potency in a 3GCD span of time than Sage can get as it lacks any damaging oGCD.

Now go and compare those "differences" to the caster dps for example and know what real differentiation truly is.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

I mean is it a wild thought to ask the player (using WHM as an example) to cast Medica and then Medica 2 after a raid wide then go back to DPSing? Or to track HoTs and refresh Regen on the tank that is getting autoed and saving something like a lily or tetra for after the tank buster? I don't think that's too much of a tall order for the players to understand.

Again, I'm not against adding some stuff to add to downtime gameplay but at the same time they can tweak numbers so you're a healer and not a green DPS. I'd like the similar treatment for Tanks where the responsibility of Reprising raid wides matters, using short niche defensive CDs to mitigate busters while playing around with your longer defensives/unique mitigation options to contend with auto damage so your healer doesn't need to baby sit them.

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Making healers into "real" healers instead of green DPS would require a lot more than number tweaks. Refreshing Regen on a tank isn't something I'm opposed to, but healers aren't defined as "needing to cast healing spells all, or even most of the time". In the vast majority of RPGs, you see a spread of healing and non-healing spells that are much closer to FFXIV's current spread than they are to WoW's. Healing isn't something you spend anywhere close to half your time doing. Most "dedicated" healers are actually support classes. They have a variety of things to do when they're not healing. They have buffs. They have debuffs. Most of the healers I've played over the years have been respectable damage dealers too. Not as strong as your average DPS type, but no slouch either. With a variety of damage tools.

Healing is something almost nobody *wants* to do. It's a baseline requirement, but it's often far less efficient than just avoiding damage in the first place. There's some damage you can't avoid, and that's where the healing comes in. I'd struggle to need more than one hand to count the number of games I've played where my healer character's most cast spell wasn't a buff or damage spell. Not a heal.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Making healers into "real" healers instead of green DPS would require a lot more than number tweaks. Refreshing Regen on a tank isn't something I'm opposed to, but healers aren't defined as "needing to cast healing spells all, or even most of the time". In the vast majority of RPGs, you see a spread of healing and non-healing spells that are much closer to FFXIV's current spread than they are to WoW's. Healing isn't something you spend anywhere close to half your time doing. Most "dedicated" healers are actually support classes. They have a variety of things to do when they're not healing. They have buffs. They have debuffs. Most of the healers I've played over the years have been respectable damage dealers too. Not as strong as your average DPS type, but no slouch either. With a variety of damage tools.

Healing is something almost nobody *wants* to do. It's a baseline requirement, but it's often far less efficient than just avoiding damage in the first place. There's some damage you can't avoid, and that's where the healing comes in. I'd struggle to need more than one hand to count the number of games I've played where my healer character's most cast spell wasn't a buff or damage spell. Not a heal.

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Again, 2 extra healing GCDs every now and then is not the same thing as needing to spam casting your AoE heal while rotating healing CDs in between needing to weave every oGCD heal or else the whole party dies to rot damage. I'm not suggesting the latter. You can tweak damage AND add dps options for healers.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Again, 2 extra healing GCDs every now and then is not the same thing as needing to spam casting your AoE heal while rotating healing CDs in between needing to weave every oGCD heal or else the whole party dies to rot damage. I'm not suggesting the latter. You can tweak damage AND add dps options for healers.

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I'm saying the latter is more important than the former, because this allergy to adding downtime activity is counterproductive. It's always "A few more damage options is okay, but nothing too much". Why nothing too much? I don't want "a few extra damage abilities". I want a rewarding, interesting, impactful, fully-fleshed out downtime kit that demonstrates the devs understand that not healing as much as possible is the reward state.