Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

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Originally Posted by Razard

Oh yes I remember Summoner being a "Support" class in FFXI. Do you know how many of my own spells I used for leveling in groups?

None.

Also Thanks for proving my point. This has been a nice little aside, but unless you want to address my actual point in my original post, which was how does any of this help RDM in THIS game, good day. By the way XIV isn't "shallow" It just doesn't have arbitrary rip currents that suck you underwater.

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TL;DR

FFXIV is shallow is boring repetitive battle and actions

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

TL;DR

FFXIV is shallow is boring repetitive battle and actions

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And FFXI is a slow, boring, repetitive, mindless slog where the endgame is who can out bot each other for NM's.

Your point?

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Originally Posted by Razard

And FFXI is a slow, boring, repetitive, mindless slog where the endgame is who can out bot each other for NM's.

Your point?

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You're speaking on 75 era FFXI from years long past that ain't coming back. 99 era, leveling is stupidly faster and no one camps NMs anymore.. or at least no longer the ones with items that were once big ticket items. Vrtra(?) and Fafnir, etc, they all sit there all alone with no one to wipe the ground with. Actually I think most of them require pop items now, no thanks to the RMT era that ran alongside the 75 era.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

You're speaking on 75 era FFXI from years long past that ain't coming back. 99 era, leveling is stupidly faster and no one camps NMs anymore.. or at least no longer the ones with items that were once big ticket items. Vrtra(?) and Fafnir, etc, they all sit there all alone with no one to wipe the ground with. Actually I think most of them require pop items now, no thanks to the RMT era that ran alongside the 75 era.

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So slow, boring, repetitive slog with trusts?

I. Don’t. Care. About. A. Dead. Game. Stop. Trying. To. Sell. It. To. Me.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

And no, red mage is not shunned from group play, i see people asking for Red mage for endgame content all the time in FFXI in the chat

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Barring Dynamis-Divergence, RDM is not ideal to have in a group. You get more damage out of a SMN or heavy-hitting melee (WAR, DRK, SAM), WHM is orders of magnitude better at healing, GEO has better debuffs and of course BRD/COR give better buffs. Funnily enough (because the more things change...) the least penalized contribution a RDM can make is cover healing. I'd know, as I've been going RDM/WHM for events since I joined an event LS back in January (where I was the only person in the shell that was interested in RDM).

I can attest to it feeling nice to have all those extra spells XI's RDM has. The price to pay for that is mediocre results in pretty much everything. Sure, the XI RDM can survive longer than most other jobs without anyone's help, but that means diddly squat in the context of a game meant to be multiplayer.

Hybrid system just cant work
sure id love RDM to get more White magic style utility
that doesnt involve healing or raising
god forbid it get vermedica

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Hybrid system just cant work
sure id love RDM to get more White magic style utility
that doesnt involve healing or raising
god forbid it get vermedica

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Id love some support flavor from the Black Magic side. Erase was so perfect because it was a caster role skill to fill our healing niche, but still shared within the role. Having access to a small emergency heal seems very within the realm of a caster. I wish they would have reworked it to make it a little more valuable. Being able to use it on yourself at like 350 potency would have been pretty decent and within caster limitations. :c Apoc being dead is even sadder.

VerMedica would be so gross. ;-; Please no SE.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Hybrid system just cant work
sure id love RDM to get more White magic style utility
that doesnt involve healing or raising
god forbid it get vermedica

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Got it, a solution for their damage and utility. Verreflect, 7 min cd. Essentially giving a tank a second cheat cooldown (or somebody standing where they shouldn't be a chance to not die), that will reflect the tank buster at the boss. That'd be almost too cheesy, but I'd be interested to see what kind of strats could be made from a tool like that.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Got it, a solution for their damage and utility. Verreflect, 7 min cd. Essentially giving a tank a second cheat cooldown, that will reflect the tank buster at the boss. That'd be almost too cheesy, but I'd be interested to see what kind of strats could be made from a tool like that.

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It would break our utility. It doesn't matter how long the cool down is on that sort of thing. You can't whip out that sort of defensive utility and not share it with the role, plus that would be crazy broken. Damage reduction with a large potency hit from striking the barrier sure, but not full out negation + boss damage. I also wouldn't want a defensive cool down thats tied to our damage [on a charge system maybe, but not on a plain cool down either.]

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

It would break our utility. It doesn't matter how long the cool down is on that sort of thing. You can't whip out that sort of defensive utility. Damage reduction with a large potency hit from striking the barrier sure, but not full out negation + boss damage. I also wouldn't want a defensive cool down thats tied to our damage [on a charge system maybe, but not on a plain cool down either.]

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I wouldn't really say it would be game breaking. No more gamebreaking than warrior's holmgang being on a shorter cd letting them use it several times in a fight used to be. It'd certainly make it pretty appealing while keeping a support feel. It'd be interesting to see if they would use it to save tank's cd's more, or if they would try to find out which mechanic does the most damage when failed, or if they'd use it to give certain dps more uptime, maybe just hold it as an "oh s%@" button. Lot of possibilities

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

I wouldn't really say it would be game breaking. No more gamebreaking than warrior's holmgang being on a shorter cd letting them use it several times in a fight used to be. It'd certainly make it pretty appealing while keeping a support feel.

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We aren't tanks though. Every tank has access to invulns. We'd become meta for all the wrong reasons "Caster slot locked to RDM. RDM cheese strat, no tank swap"

Its the same issue raise has. You have to share utility like that among the role or its going to cause imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

We aren't tanks though. Every tank has access to invulns. We'd become meta for all the wrong reasons "Caster slot locked to RDM. RDM cheese strat, no tank swap"

Its the same issue raise has. You have to share utility like that among the role or its going to cause imbalance.

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simple invuln cheeses aren't usually game breaking and don't really make a mechanic much easier. Ever since shirk has become a thing swaps are relatively simple. Their damage output would still be relatively low, in the grand scheme of things that would only give them an extra 150k-300k in a fight depending on if it was used once or twice. That'd be roughly a 4-6% damage boost. Still behind a decent bit, but adding a lot more comfort and flexibility to the encounter. The larger potential to what they would "add" would be if they outright prevented a dps from dying. Could really restore the prog king title to them. Would still be behind enough to not justify in speed runs, but a little higher to be more appealing in weekly reclears.

We could handicap it a little more as well. An attack could still apply debuffs, and the idea i had was it placing the reflect buff on a target for 10 seconds, then it reflects ONE ability or auto attack. Tank cooldowns would still be preferable to most of those mechanics.
Kind of like how old manawall used to be, with the exception of being able to put it on a party member, and it reflecting. It'd be similar to a tank cheat cd, but vastly less powerful, its main appeal would be that it can be placed on anybody.

Hey Golden Bahamut take your akh morns back you stupid dummy.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Hey Golden Bahamut take your akh morns back you stupid dummy.

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That would be some dank memes right there lol, but I was thinking it only reflects once.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

That would be some dank memes right there lol, but I was thinking it only reflects once.

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Guarantee it'll be worthless then lol, it'll suffer just like StB shelltron: verreflect went off on an auto, and now the tank is gonna take the buster naked and die.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Guarantee it'll be worthless then lol, it'll suffer just like StB shelltron: verreflect went off on an auto, and now the tank is gonna take the buster naked and die.

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It depends.

Does it negate the hit entirely or does it just reduce it to 0?

Negating a hit has huge implications as it doesn't give you the related Debuffs usually associated with such dangerous incoming hits. As an example, you could 'Reflect' the second Stonecrusher in a Tankbuster chain, giving time for the first Debuff to fall off, and then a tank can take the entirety of Stonebuster without an invuln.

Depending on your tank and healer set up, that's pretty significant.

I think it's more reasonable as a 3 cooldown, party shield

VerReflect
Ability
180 second Recast
Effect: Grants you and your party a shield equivalent to 10% of Maximum Health. Damage absorbed is reflected to the attacker.

Until you realise the actor performing the damage isn't the boss and the reflect is null and void. I don't think you all want the old headache of Radiant Shield optimisation :^)

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Originally Posted by Razard

So slow, boring, repetitive slog with trusts?

I. Don’t. Care. About. A. Dead. Game. Stop. Trying. To. Sell. It. To. Me.

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Exactly how I feel with FFXIV duegons and raids lol

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

You're speaking on 75 era FFXI from years long past that ain't coming back. 99 era, leveling is stupidly faster and no one camps NMs anymore.. or at least no longer the ones with items that were once big ticket items. Vrtra(?) and Fafnir, etc, they all sit there all alone with no one to wipe the ground with. Actually I think most of them require pop items now, no thanks to the RMT era that ran alongside the 75 era.

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Yeah noone bots for NMs anymore lol this person needs to get updated, there's new dynamis and new endgame content ( I'm not sure what most of it is because I'm doing WOTG storyline missions and working on job points for Dancer/WAR)

And it is POP items or you can use your Records of Eminence missions to POP some NMs

I'm hoping to get in endgame with my dancer/warrior and get Geo/ rdm up too

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

You shouldn't have to switch jobs. Why is Red Mage the only job in the game that has to deal with people telling them they "should" switch or calling them "training wheels"? That is such a BS mentality and I refuse to accept being kept down just because some people have this warped perception of my favorite job.

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Rdm is surely not the only job which faced pf-lockouts or "switch cls"-statements at all... there were Sams, Nins, Smns, Brds & Mchs in older expansions which were treated like that by the speed-run community. Its just natural that those player wanna use the better/easier cls for their runs. This time it's RDM... next time its maybe BLK/Mnk again if the balance patch drops and closes the dps-gap... who knows... : /

Talking about BS-mentality:
If u can't find a grp with pf cause of lockouts... how about making an own grp? There are also enough raider who don't care the meta/community over all mind. But like always... making an own grp needs responsibility and orga... what many player just dont want to do by themselves its easier to talk about lockouts (and holding the opportunity to rage quit if things get worse..) instead. : /

(not to say balance is a joke atm... hopefully 5.1 won't be a fail)

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Originally Posted by Neela

Rdm is surely not the only job which faced pf-lockouts or "switch cls"-statements at all... there were Sams, Nins, Smns, Brds & Mchs in older expansions which were treated like that by the speed-run community. Its just natural that those player wanna use the better/easier cls for their runs. This time it's RDM... next time its maybe BLK/Mnk again if the balance patch drops and closes the dps-gap... who knows... : /

Talking about BS-mentality:
If u can't find a grp with pf cause of lockouts... how about making an own grp? There are also enough raider who don't care the meta/community over all mind. But like always... making an own grp needs responsibility and orga... what many player just dont want to do by themselves its easier to talk about lockouts (and holding the opportunity to rage quit if things get worse..) instead. : /

(not to say balance is a joke atm... hopefully 5.1 won't be a fail)

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NIN, SMN, BRD were all meta in the speedrun community in SB just check the speed logs. BRD, MCH and NIN were meta in HW. MCH was temporarily meta in SB when its hypercharged was 6% and casters didn't have their buffs yet, however, no one wanted to play it. But they were never shunned. The only job that hasn't been meta in your list is SAM. I agree however that these jobs have been shunned this expansion; NIN is in a good spot right now DPS wise and is fairly balanced against the rest of the melee. Ranged and Casters are the only jobs having real issues, but that's solely because BLM has no competitor and taking anything other than BLM for the caster/ranged spot is over 1.1k dps gone.

The ranged and casters need to be brought up to the melee levels or around there at least.

and they all were locked out in between as well - don’t be hypercritical here. Just because RDM wasn’t meta yet it doesn’t mean others suffered like it as well. The times before said cls were meta in that tiers they were unbalanced and weak as well (not to say that most of their rotations/ping were clunky af too... what RDM can't say until 2day) -> they became meta with patch adjustments -> Smn f.e were more than un-wanted before they nerfed missing-Aetherflow-hit punishment. And hell MCH rotations s*cked absolutely to the fullest. So no: they weren’t meta from the scratch.

There was also a time no one cared for Blm, weird hm? Just because a Cls is meta now it doesn’t mean it always was in a good spot.

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Originally Posted by Neela

and they all were locked out in between as well - don’t be hypercritical here. Just because RDM wasn’t meta yet it doesn’t mean others suffered like it as well. The times before said cls were meta in that tiers they were unbalanced and weak as well -> they became meta with patch adjustments.

There was also a time no one cared for Blm, weird hm? Just because a Cls is meta now it doesn’t mean it always was in a good spot.

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What I responded to was your statement about how they were all shunned in previous expansions; which is simply untrue for NIN and BRD which have always been meta in previous expansions. I have played since ARR and seen the meta evolve throughout every expansion. NIN and BRD have been meta since their releases right up until SB, wherein a TK MNK could replace a NIN only if the fight design benefitted a MNK moreso.

I agree with your statement about classes now, given the adjustments in 5.1 any job could be mathematically the best for a given role and change the meta. That doesn't change how things are now though currently. Also, i'm well aware that classes aren't always meta. I played MNK since ARR, HW and SB was a shitshow for us lol.

Given the nature of RDM though, it has ALWAYS been shunned outside of progression. However given the discrepancies of DPS between casters, even if you took a RDM for the purpose of having a rezbot, the chances of killing the tier (at least before everyone outgeared it) was a lot lower, simply because of the huge dps disparity. The only jobs to never be apart of the speedrun meta have been RDM and SAM.

Edit:

I never implied jobs were meta from scratch.

personally I think rdm should be last of the three casters - Blm (---/---), Smn (Res/---), Rdm (Res/int-heal). yet I know people dont wanna hear different arguments than raid/dps arguments. but the combination of an int-base heal and multiply instant combat resses also brings an imbalance out of savage/endgame in side content like event/token-fates, palace/heaven or diadem/eureka - were RDM indeed is the meta of the meta, always was and always will be with a combo-kit like that.

yeah yeah who cares non-savage balance? most probably not the speed-raider but raiding is just a small part of what the game offers... thats why Blu is still limited f.e. – Balance has not just to face savage even if we want SE to think like that... For me it would be way more logical to give RDM another supportskill like reflect or haste than push his dps to make him on par with the other two. : /

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I never implied jobs were meta from scratch.

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I know but meta was your answer on my call that they had problems as well before they got a place somewhere.
Just to underline they also had a way to go before they were in the spot you took for comparison tho.

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Originally Posted by Neela

personally I think rdm should be last of the three casters - Blm (---/---), Smn (Res/---), Rdm (Res/int-heal). yet I know people dont wanna hear different arguments than raid/dps arguments. but the combination of an int-base heal and multiply instant combat resses also brings an imbalance out of savage/endgame in side content like event/token-fates, palace/heaven or diadem/eureka - were RDM indeed is the meta of the meta, always was and always will be with a combo-kit like that.

yeah yeah who cares non-savage balance? most probably not the speed-raider but raiding is just a small part of what the game offers... thats why Blu is still limited f.e. – Balance has not just to face savage even if we want SE to think like that... For me it would be way more logical to give RDM another supportskill like reflect or haste than push his dps to make him on par with the other two. : /

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Jobs should be balanced around savage content, no one cares outside of savage and extremes who's doing what DPS or who has what utility, but when it comes to clearing the hardest content of the game which have tight DPS checks before outgearing it, jobs should be similarly balanced within a few hundred of each other. Why would you balance jobs around more casual content that have almost no DPS checks when all jobs are capable of doing Eureka and Fates etc? There's no disadvantage to not being optimal in fates, or eureka the content will still get cleared/completed. But there are disadvantages for being poorly balanced in savage content, especially early on when people aren't out-gearing it. The problems with RDM and SMN is that it's ridiculously weak in comparison to BLM. No caster should have such a huge tax just because they can res. a couple hundred I could agree with, but upwards of 1.1k dps difference for SMN and 1.35k for RDM at all percentiles is ridiculous. That disparity includes their raid contribution too. At higher percentiles it's closer to 1.5k dps difference. A res isn't worth a 1.5k DPS loss, nor is a terrible single target heal. RDM and SMN already lose DPS by ressing anyway for the sheer fact of missing their GCD.

I don't think anyone should be defending the giant gap between the caster's right now. I agree with the general statement that res should hold some weight to it. But not by much. 100~ DPS at most.

That’s what I thought - well your opinion than. But it won’t be the case sadly and u will never understand RDMs spot with that mindset. Always nice to read it again when raider think it’s their and only their game. ^^

But that’s a topic of its own and here is not the place to get that started... again. Fact is RDM atm just suffers like other jobs did in the past - nothing special. And it will change. Like balance always does but treating it like something exclusive to Rdm... is a bit over the top.

And yeah sure the current Blm is the biggest imbalance in history no doubt but that effects ALL DDs not just RDMs : /

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Exactly how I feel with FFXIV duegons and raids lol

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So you have nothing to add to the conversation. great.

Ok then, let me slow down and make my point less obtuse.

How do I put this so you understand? I don't want to be updated. I don't care how (what many call the worst era of) FFXI is doing. The point of it is that the stuff that made FFXI """great""" can't just be updated and brought over here wholesale and expected to work. FFXI was very much of it's time from a company that was basically fumbling through this whole MMO thing.

Also Hysterics and fainting couch drama is not going to help your argumentation. Which was my point before you took us on this worthless wild goose chase of a tangent. And the suggestions being asked to the original post I responded to where ludicrous.

All I can say is stop to proselytizing. I did my time and I much prefer this game.

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Originally Posted by Neela

personally I think rdm should be last of the three casters - Blm (---/---), Smn (Res/---), Rdm (Res/int-heal). yet I know people dont wanna hear different arguments than raid/dps arguments. but the combination of an int-base heal and multiply instant combat resses also brings an imbalance out of savage/endgame in side content like event/token-fates, palace/heaven or diadem/eureka - were RDM indeed is the meta of the meta, always was and always will be with a combo-kit like that.

yeah yeah who cares non-savage balance? most probably not the speed-raider but raiding is just a small part of what the game offers... thats why Blu is still limited f.e. – Balance has not just to face savage even if we want SE to think like that... For me it would be way more logical to give RDM another supportskill like reflect or haste than push his dps to make him on par with the other two. : /

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I know but meta was your answer on my call that they had problems as well before they got a place somewhere.
Just to underline they also had a way to go before they were in the spot you took for comparison tho.

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You shouldn't ever be using vercure as a justification for imbalance. Vercure first of all is weak and second of all is on the gcd so you literally never want to use it when you could be doing damage instead.

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Originally Posted by Razard

All I can say is stop to proselytizing. I did my time and I much prefer this game.

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Couldn't agree more there. As someone who has played XI from release up until Adoulin, I can say that FFXI is very niche, and honestly the exception rather than the norm. Red Mage in XI was...definitely something, and not something I want to see in XIV.

I personally think Red Mage has kept it's identity, and I also think the job flows really well. If Verraise is the one thing that's keeping Red Mage from being competently balanced, then by all means, give it to Black Mages for all I care, or remove it. Raises from a Red Mage barely ever saves a Savage run, and most of the time our static will jump off the platform to die on purpose if someone died early or stupidly. Why risk a 0.1% wipe? It just seems unnecessary. I think all Red Mages need right now are a buff to their damage, and perhaps some minor tweaks here and there; I never was a fan of mobility abilities having significant potency, or any at all. I wish I could just use Displacement and Corps-a-Corps as mobility abilities rather than a part of my "rotation."

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Couldn't agree more there. As someone who has played XI from release up until Adoulin, I can say that FFXI is very niche, and honestly the exception rather than the norm. Red Mage in XI was...definitely something, and not something I want to see in XIV.

I personally think Red Mage has kept it's identity, and I also think the job flows really well. If Verraise is the one thing that's keeping Red Mage from being competently balanced, then by all means, give it to Black Mages for all I care, or remove it. Raises from a Red Mage barely ever saves a Savage run, and most of the time our static will jump off the platform to die on purpose if someone died early or stupidly. Why risk a 0.1% wipe? It just seems unnecessary. I think all Red Mages need right now are a buff to their damage, and perhaps some minor tweaks here and there; I never was a fan of mobility abilities having significant potency, or any at all. I wish I could just use Displacement and Corps-a-Corps as mobility abilities rather than a part of my "rotation."

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i agree with this especially the potency buffs too, however, while i can't deny the job has a flow. I believe that flow comes from a distinct lack of moving parts. red mage is VERY shallow when you really look at it and thats a very fair complaint to have. I personally would say that while the job is successful, it's only at a base entry level. Im not asking red mage to be harder, i'd just like more moving parts because there really isn't alot going on besides BWBW melee and thats very bland.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

I believe that flow comes from a distinct lack of moving parts. red mage is VERY shallow when you really look at it and thats a very fair complaint to have.

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Sure, it's a fair complaint to have. Though, I don't agree that Red Mage is shallow at all, as from my perspective, it is every other jobs that have become convoluted. I am drawn to Red Mage because of how "shallow" it is. Similarly, and I'm sure I will be burned at the stake for saying this, but I had alot more fun with paladin before it started pretending to be a caster. To each their own.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Sure, it's a fair complaint to have. Though, I don't agree that Red Mage is shallow at all, as from my perspective, it is every other jobs that have become convoluted. I am drawn to Red Mage because of how "shallow" it is. Similarly, and I'm sure I will be burned at the stake for saying this, but I had alot more fun with paladin before it started pretending to be a caster. To each their own.

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quite. only a handful of jobs have become convoluted in my opinion. perhaps it's likely a matter of taste as i wouldn't exactly call a 5 gcd instant cast phase every minute, convoluted. it's very simple and isn't much different from using shield lob 5 times in a row every minute except it does magic damage. None of the tanks are all that convoluted and the only jobs i feel are teetering on that line too much are AST, NIN, MNK, and arguably SMN and MCH. everyone else is fine

red mage on the other hand is painfully straightforward to a fault. it really does boil down to BW BW melee repeat while using all your ogcds on CD and only a finite amount of depth to receive through manafication optimization.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

perhaps it's likely a matter of taste as i wouldn't exactly call a 5 gcd instant cast phase every minute, convoluted.

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Tanks specifically, especially Paladin, isn't what I would refer to as convoluted. However, you did say you wanted to add depth to Red Mage, but stated that you did not want it to become harder to play. Paladin pops in my head, it added depth but it isn't harder to play, and it feels wholly unsatisfying. (to me)

I was fine with Paladin before they added this Requiescat gimmick, as much as I'm fine with the current flow and toolkit of Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Tanks specifically, especially Paladin, isn't what I would refer to as convoluted. However, you did say you wanted to add depth to Red Mage, but stated that you did not want it to become harder to play. Paladin pops in my head, it added depth but it isn't harder to play, and it feels wholly unsatisfying. (to me)

I was fine with Paladin before they added this Requiescat gimmick, as much as I'm fine with the current flow and toolkit of Red Mage.

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Im curious though, what about that gimmick is convoluted to you?

Red mage certainly can become harder for me personally, but difficulty and level of optimization shouldn't go hand in hand, it should be possible to add more moving parts to a job without making it far too complicated . we do see this with jobs like BLM who's really come into it's own with the amount of tools it's been given over the years but is arguably the best it's been since ARR.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Im curious though, what about that gimmick is convoluted to you?

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Read my messages carefully and you'll see that what I'm saying is quite the opposite. My wording was wrong, as I should've said "Every other DPS feels convoluted to me." (Yes, even Black Mage, but that's obviously my opinion.) Holy Spirit spam isn't convoluted, but it's a perfect example of adding depth that goes nowhere. The FFXIV community likes when things are complicated, that's fine, but what I'm saying is that, in my perspective, Red Mage is the only thing currently keeping me in the game as far as jobs go, so I wouldn't want to see it get less "shallow" as you've previously mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Read my messages carefully and you'll see that what I'm saying is quite the opposite. My wording was wrong, as I should've said "Every other DPS feels convoluted to me." (Yes, even Black Mage, but that's obviously my opinion.) Holy Spirit spam isn't convoluted, but it's a perfect example of adding depth that goes nowhere. The FFXIV community likes when things are complicated, that's fine, but what I'm saying is that, in my perspective, Red Mage is the only thing currently keeping me in the game as far as jobs go, so I wouldn't want to see it get less "shallow" as you've previously mentioned.

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I suppose we'll agree to disagree here.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

You shouldn't ever be using vercure as a justification for imbalance. Vercure first of all is weak and second of all is on the gcd so you literally never want to use it when you could be doing damage instead.

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i dont get why you quote a whole paragraph which is about "out of savage survival-flexibility" and talk about dmg?... did u even read what that quote is all about? Sure RDM like Pala shouldn't use their heal skills if unnecessary - the imbalance is: they CAN if needed compared to other cls. dunno why people won't get what kind of advantage this is. dmg dmg dmg everybody is talking about dmg... but well dead people won't do any dmg so if situation is getting to mess up RDM support like Pala heal are indeed worth to have. just take a look at the player which received the necromancer title archivment and which cls they played to get it, which "virus" spreat through eureka or still spread in token-fates/hunt trains... not savage relevant, so not relevant at all hm? #mindhunter

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Originally Posted by Neela

i dont get why you quote a whole paragraph which is about "out of savage survival-flexibility" and talk about dmg?... did u even read what that quote is all about? Sure RDM like Pala shouldn't use their heal skills if unnecessary - the imbalance is: they CAN if needed compared to other cls. dunno why people won't get what kind of advantage this is. dmg dmg dmg everybody is talking about dmg... but well dead people won't do any dmg so if situation is getting to mess up RDM support like Pala heal are indeed worth to have. just take a look at the player which received the necromancer title archivment and which cls they played to get it, which "virus" spreat through eureka or still spread in token-fates/hunt trains... not savage relevant, so not relevant at all hm? #mindhunter

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With the slight difference of Clemency having 1200 potency, making it a viable choice with high chances to prevent a death if shit hit the fan (in most cases their own if the healers managed to blow themselves up) while Vercure has only 350 potency. With my current gear I think it heals for around 11k or something.
This all fine and dandy for helping out the healer in a dungeon if the paper tank overestimated the amount of mobs he can safely pull but in raid enviroment it's essentially meaningless. I'm not denying that it's useful to solo FATEs, play the makeshift healer in boss FATEs/ hunts until the actual healer arrived, stabilizing yourself if you ate an aoe and the healer is busy babysitting the tank etc., but in all of those situations dps and escpecially dps gaps between jobs don't matter. Sleep has absolutely NO use in raids. Nonewhatsoever. But it can have it's uses in casual content. Do you see BLM getting taxed for it? Nope.
I have never, in all my time, seen a dps get excluded from hunts, FATEs or dungeons via votekick because their class was poorly balanced and thus at the bottom end of the dps meter.
I have (rarely) seen them get excluded for atrocious gameplay but never because of poor balance.

There's a difference between actually meaningful support/ survivability skills which are useful in every content, including extremes/ savage like Troubadour, Mantra, Second Wind or Manaward and nice gimmicks, which can be great in casual content but are basically meaningless in endgame content - like Vercure.
The latter should not be taxed in terms of dps.
Dps and balance makes next to no difference in FATEs or hunts. The people participating are geared completely different, you have fresh max level chars and inexperiences class hoppers as much as savage raiders killing downtime. Class balance doesn't matter in those cases, only personal performance makes an actual difference. And honestly, that's a GOOD thing, because you can happily play whichever class you like and nobody will exclude you from the fun for it. Treasure maps, hunts, FATEs, dungeons... it's completely fine to have a squad of dancers and red mages or two scholars etc.
While in endgame content class balance matters because everyone is expected to be geared and performing accordingly.

If a class is sought after in very specific content, where dps potential matters little, nerfing their dps across the board because of said skill, including for content where dps potential DOES matter but the taxed skill is actually next to useless, is an extremely short-sighted approach.

Wait how utility tax (which is, surprise, damage) is supposed to balance jobs in content where damage is irrelevant? People would still be playing rdm in eureka even if blm was doing 3x its damage ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

i dont get why you quote a whole paragraph which is about "out of savage survival-flexibility" and talk about dmg?... did u even read what that quote is all about? Sure RDM like Pala shouldn't use their heal skills if unnecessary - the imbalance is: they CAN if needed compared to other cls. dunno why people won't get what kind of advantage this is. dmg dmg dmg everybody is talking about dmg... but well dead people won't do any dmg so if situation is getting to mess up RDM support like Pala heal are indeed worth to have. just take a look at the player which received the necromancer title archivment and which cls they played to get it, which "virus" spreat through eureka or still spread in token-fates/hunt trains... not savage relevant, so not relevant at all hm? #mindhunter

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Yes it is an advantage, but it's for the most part an irrelevant one unless your party is struggling with content, and things should never be balanced around the parties that can't optimize.

While it's true that these are things that red mage can use, they're for the most part largely irrelevant in the raiding scene considering a highly optimized party won't have red mage using either of those skills.

I'm largely for classes that have utility that makes them useful outside of raiding or unoptimized raiding, but said classes shouldn't really be taxed much if at all for it, otherwise you're taxing the good players for skills that only the bad ones have to use.

I mean paladin isn't given a clemency tax despite having an op self heal that's comparable to the heavier cooldowns healers use, and that's because no tanks use it outside of solo content.