Selling Ultimate Weapon Ultima Is Apparently Not Against the ToS

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I think we all can agree that IP alone would not be good evidence because there could be reasonable arguments why it changed. But it could be still one small piece in the puzzle.

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As but a piece of the puzzle, I will accept it, it makes sense. But it's for those who think that it should be used as an entire thing to determine it that I don't agree with, and there were some comments I read in this thread that I interpreted as such. Like I have said in other threads, also allow GMs to do sting operations. You know like how those things are done to lure people who are breaking the law into doing it in front of undercover cops who can then bust them? Similar sort of deal here. Honey trapping I think it's also called?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

As but a piece of the puzzle, I will accept it, it makes sense. But it's for those who think that it should be used as an entire thing to determine it that I don't agree with, and there were some comments I read in this thread that I interpreted as such. Like I have said in other threads, also allow GMs to do sting operations. You know like how those things are done to lure people who are breaking the law into doing it in front of undercover cops who can then bust them? Similar sort of deal here. Honey trapping I think it's also called?

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From what i heard some WoW GMs did it a lot and are watching suspects for hours. Same with suspected bots...

Give it up. I don't agree with the PF ads either, but its not that big of deal. Every ad I see doesn't specifically ask for rl money. Nothing you can do, except control yourself. I'd imagine with all the effort you put into this thread you could've cleared Ultimate 400 times by now. Here's how it would go : " Why did I get banned?" " Well,we' are pretty sure you're selling content for rl money, it's obvious." " Probably? It's obvious? Where's your proof?" " Uh we don't have any, we're just pretty sure." Yea..........good luck.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Well, I fail to see how people that didn't clear God Kefka would care about the topic as it's a requirement before even thinking about Weapon's Refrain. But hey, if it bothers you that people are good enough to sell the content, it's your loss not mine. I had my laughs already.

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Well if that's your train of thought, I think only people who have cleared God Kefka, while performing well, should be able to comment on the selling of it. That means you're out. See how productive this is? It isn't. I don't see why someone progging through O8S shouldn't be allowed to comment. Frankly you're not even really allowed to comment if you want to be exclusionary.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Well if that's your train of thought, I think only people who have cleared God Kefka, while performing well, should be able to comment on the selling of it. That means you're out. See how productive this is? It isn't. I don't see why someone progging through O8S shouldn't be allowed to comment. Frankly you're not even really allowed to comment if you want to be exclusionary.

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But they've cleared V8S, so not sure why you think otherwise?

https://gyazo.com/dc69491d78be41ca2bfd5624eb48091f I have this little gem from a discord....this needs to stop IMO.

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Originally Posted by Nhadaly

https://gyazo.com/dc69491d78be41ca2bfd5624eb48091f I have this little gem from a discord....this needs to stop IMO.

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If that’s who I think it is (a team on Ragnarok), that’s a wind up. That was their first clear a night or two ago.

*edit*

Just confirmed, it is who I think it is. Time to add a sense of humour to the basket sir =(

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Honey trapping I think it's also called?

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Yeah I think I posted something similar. I mean if they want to they have options to go against this ToS breaking. Sadly I feel that they wont do much against it..which means that any other action against breaking are not reasonable..because if you ban bots for selling gil for real money then you should do the same with other content that includes it. But maybe all this discussion on different forums might at least raise awareness.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Snip snip.

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I'll admit, my parse is pretty trash. I could explain why but that doesn't interest anybody here. Point is, I cleared. Nothing stopping me from actually doing Ultimate other than my own commitment/desire. Unlike someone without a G-Kefka kill that can't even unlock the thing.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I'll admit, my parse is pretty trash. I could explain why but that doesn't interest anybody here. Point is, I cleared. Nothing stopping me from actually doing Ultimate other than my own commitment/desire. Unlike someone without a G-Kefka kill that can't even unlock the thing.

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Maybe it's low because you paid for that too. <3

Edit: (OBVIOUS JOKE)

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Maybe it's low because you paid for that too. <3

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Its pretty normal for someones first clear to be pretty low in comparison to future runs, people usually optimize their dps a lot after the clear is done, not before, its safety first and foremost during prog.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I'll admit, my parse is pretty trash. I could explain why but that doesn't interest anybody here. Point is, I cleared. Nothing stopping me from actually doing Ultimate other than my own commitment/desire. Unlike someone without a G-Kefka kill that can't even unlock the thing.

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"Clearing" is quite a stretch. Carried sounds more appropriate. I think you shouldn't be allowed to join a conversation about selling clears if you're not able to clear it better than most. Point is, your opinion on the subject is just as valid as anyone else's. Requiring a clear to speak about selling a run doesn't make much sense. Everyone should be able to talk about an issue and give their feedback. If you want to be exclusionary, then you should be prepared to be excluded when you don't measure up to someone's standards.

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Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Its pretty normal for someones first clear to be pretty low in comparison to future runs, people usually optimize their dps a lot after the clear is done, not before, its safety first and foremost during prog.

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What about someone's second, third or fourth?

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

What about someone's second, third or fourth?

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Depends on what week they're clearing, i know some people who progressed godka week one who have a bunch of greys in kefaust due to the very, very low amount of people doing that at that time.

And some people are just not good, i know people that just cant improve due to multiple factors, people in casual groups clearing tiers tend to be in this category, they can still clear, but usually stay mediocre, not that thats a bad thing mind you, im not trying to diss anyone or take shots.

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Originally Posted by Nhadaly

Its pretty normal for someones first clear to be pretty low in comparison to future runs, people usually optimize their dps a lot after the clear is done, not before, its safety first and foremost during prog.

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Oops I forgot to write (OBVIOUS JOKE) this time. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Oops I forgot to write (OBVIOUS JOKE) this time. Sorry.

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I used your post to make a general point, not to attack your "obvious joke".

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

"Clearing" is quite a stretch. Carried sounds more appropriate. I think you shouldn't be allowed to join a conversation about selling clears if you're not able to clear it better than most. Point is, your opinion on the subject is just as valid as anyone else's. Requiring a clear to speak about selling a run doesn't make much sense. Everyone should be able to talk about an issue and give their feedback. If you want to be exclusionary, then you should be prepared to be excluded when you don't measure up to someone's standards.

What about someone's second, third or fourth?

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I just want to say that taking personal shots against someone who disagrees with your point of view is a sure-fire way to turn others off.

This is nothing new. MMO players have been doing this for years. Its no different than selling used junk. Does it devalue the work others have put in to completing the content..... not really because 85% of the player base could give 2 kuponuts about that content. The main reason is most players will never have a chance to try that type of content let alone complete it.

If you believe that selling runs devalues the work that others put in to completing it is simply ridiculous. The player that buys the completion is most likely wanting the weapon glamour. Those who actually complete the content is doing it for fun and there lies the value not some trophy glamour weapon....

The real value of this type of content is that rush of excitement and joy after finally completing it. Blood, sweat and tears.... then finally bliss. A stick with a built in flashlight that will eventually go into your retainers inventory is only a reminder and nothing more.

Awesome Memories with your friends kicking @$$ is the real value.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

I think you shouldn't be allowed to join a conversation about selling clears if you're not able to clear it better than most.
Point is, your opinion on the subject is just as valid as anyone else's. Requiring a clear to speak about selling a run doesn't make much sense.

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You should stop contradicting yourself before you start making "opinions"
That would help you a great deal.
Otherwise..please stop before you embarrass yourself any further.

As to the subject matter - You can sell clears if its gil only.
However - its painfully obvious to me these are RMT -
They demand Discord upfront
They hide details and only discuss out-of-game

That alone smells rotten to the core.

Will SE do anything? Not as of yet....at least as far as we know about it.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

You should stop contradicting yourself before you start making "opinions"
That would help you a great deal.
Otherwise..please stop before you embarrass yourself any further.

As to the subject matter - You can sell clears if its gil only.
However - its painfully obvious to me these are RMT -
They demand Discord upfront
They hide details and only discuss out-of-game

That alone smells rotten to the core.

Will SE do anything? Not as of yet....at least as far as we know about it.

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That's the point. I am repeating the mentality displayed by him and other players who seem to believe that you have to had cleared something to speak about this issue. What's embarrassing is not looking at the context of what was posted only a few posts before. I keep saying that everyone should be able to talk about this issue, but players baring others because of some standard they set is just wrong. So for hyperbole, I set up my own standard which he didn't meet, thereby helping him understand how baring others isn't productive. It's really bizarre that I have to explain this.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I just want to say that taking personal shots against someone who disagrees with your point of view is a sure-fire way to turn others off.

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No one reads anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

That's the point. I am repeating the mentality displayed by him and other players who seem to believe that you have to had cleared something to speak about this issue. What's embarrassing is not looking at the context of what was posted only a few posts before. I keep saying that everyone should be able to talk about this issue, but players baring others because of some standard they set is just wrong. So for hyperbole, I set up my own standard which he didn't meet, thereby helping him understand how baring others isn't productive. It's really bizarre that I have to explain this.



No one reads anymore.

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Damn shame. Pretty redheads should always be listened to.

Now then, my thoughts? On my old account I was a pretty hardcore raider, had Mesuline Mauler back in the day during 2.0 era. Yet now I am trying to gear up, get back alot of the things I lost from my old account, and hopefully find a static to do the expansions final tier in and hopefully, do the two ultimates with as well. That said though, may turn out I may not even find a static, the very least a good one. A few of the ones I did join in the past as I was in and out of the game before my old account loss always fell apart, due to the static leader either getting frustrated, or members just not showing up. I would then be asked by those leaving or the static leader to transition to a new static with them, but I would decline and disappear frustrated for a week or two before looking once again for a static in need of a PLD/DRK tank.

In short, I may never get to see Ultimate. But I do wish they would still put in a 3rd ultimate and do 3 per expansion hell, why not 4 per expansion? I know its alot of reuse of assets and such, can still take quite alot of developer time to create it, test it, balance it out, etc. But its Square Enix we are talking about here. They can hire additional staff to help the lead project dev tasked on the ultimate they are wanting to do. But in the end, its all about money, if they think 2 per expansion is enough according to their metrics then so be it.

But this old dog has got alot of getting caught back up to do before I can even raid, much less do Ultimate. But I do hope they reconsider and put in a 3rd.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Snip snip.

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Your standard is all good and dandy but it is irrelevant in this matter. The system says I qualify for Ultimate and actually am participating in said content so obviously I have a right to my opinion on this matter. Players who do not even have access to it should keep their mouths shut and focus on actually getting there. Also obviously as far as selling goes, my stance remains, just mad because you can't sell it yourself. You're actually upset people make a good chunk of change out of selling clears because they are good enough for it.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

That's the point. I am repeating the mentality displayed by him and other players who seem to believe that you have to had cleared something to speak about this issue. What's embarrassing is not looking at the context of what was posted only a few posts before. I keep saying that everyone should be able to talk about this issue, but players baring others because of some standard they set is just wrong. So for hyperbole, I set up my own standard which he didn't meet, thereby helping him understand how baring others isn't productive. It's really bizarre that I have to explain this.



No one reads anymore.

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If your going to say...say it...don't play games....and don't accuse people of not reading when you don't even say what you where saying in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

No one reads anymore.

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I can read just fine. Thank you for your concern. All I see is you being petty and taking personal shots because his opinion on the matter differs from yours. Because I do agree with him--if people aren't even clearing God, why are they concerning themselves with Ultimate sales? Why is anyone getting up in arms about people doing whatever with their money? If you're morally against it, that's fine. I don't agree with the practice of buying and selling either. But I've also stopped concerning myself with what strangers on the Internet do with their money. Not like I could stop them anyways.

If you were trying to make a point, do so without the petty ad hominem next time.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

That's the point. I am repeating the mentality displayed by him and other players who seem to believe that you have to had cleared something to speak about this issue. What's embarrassing is not looking at the context of what was posted only a few posts before. I keep saying that everyone should be able to talk about this issue, but players baring others because of some standard they set is just wrong. So for hyperbole, I set up my own standard which he didn't meet, thereby helping him understand how baring others isn't productive. It's really bizarre that I have to explain this.

No one reads anymore.

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Welcome to the forums where people remember you for saying things they don't agree with, and then try to shame you into shutting up. That is a typical bully tactic.

It is against the ToS to engage in RMT, just like it's against the ToS to use third party tools. You can not say one is worse than the other, when it carries the same weight. There is nothing in the ToS about having played/cleared content before talking about it, because if that were the case there would be no way to get people hyped about it, and players wouldn't go on a virtual protest when things are changed in ways they don't like.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I can read just fine. Thank you for your concern. All I see is you being petty and taking personal shots because his opinion on the matter differs from yours. Because I do agree with him--if people aren't even clearing God, why are they concerning themselves with Ultimate sales? Why is anyone getting up in arms about people doing whatever with their money? If you're morally against it, that's fine. I don't agree with the practice of buying and selling either. But I've also stopped concerning myself with what strangers on the Internet do with their money. Not like I could stop them anyways.

If you were trying to make a point, do so without the petty ad hominem next time.

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But Lady Park, are the sellers not only selling ultimates, but also selling God Clears as well? Just so they can also sell the ultimate clear?


Back then in 2.0 I belonged in a elite group that sold Extreme Primal clears, as well as Twintania, Nael and Bahamut wins, and we often would sell clears for the prior runs so they could buy the more expensive final boss clear of that tier. Though, at this time their was no cross server, and all payments were in Gil and Gil only.

Had a fellow give us 400M Gil to take him thru the entirety of Coil once. But yea....I suspect if they sell Ultimate, they will sell the run to get you to ultimate as well. Thus the concern I believe? Though, carrying a person thus essentially 7 manning the content did provide a fun challenge.

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Originally Posted by Nhadaly

I used your post to make a general point, not to attack your "obvious joke".

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I just like to make jokes that anyone with a diamond/ultima weapon totally paid $1200 for it.

But yes, you were right. Your first clear will always be low, because you're still figuring out where you can squeeze more.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Your standard is all good and dandy but it is irrelevant in this matter. The system says I qualify for Ultimate and actually am participating in said content so obviously I have a right to my opinion on this matter. Players who do not even have access to it should keep their mouths shut and focus on actually getting there. Also obviously as far as selling goes, my stance remains, just mad because you can't sell it yourself. You're actually upset people make a good chunk of change out of selling clears because they are good enough for it.

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Your stance is still contradictory because I could just as easily relent on Ultimate and say I'm upset about the selling of O8S, which I am more than capable of carrying people through. Also claiming I am "mad" because I can't sell it doesn't address anything I've said on the morals of selling for real money, how it breaks the ToS and how it is blatantly advertised. All you've said is "you're mad you can't sell it" which doesn't actually... do anything. Like even if I was mad, I mean, okay? And this somehow diminishes the point I've made how?

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

If your going to say...say it...don't play games....and don't accuse people of not reading when you don't even say what you where saying in the first place.

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I did say it, a few posts earlier. If you followed the comment chain between me and this individual it would be clear. Sorry you didn't, but that's not exactly my problem.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I can read just fine. Thank you for your concern. All I see is you being petty and taking personal shots because his opinion on the matter differs from yours. Because I do agree with him--if people aren't even clearing God, why are they concerning themselves with Ultimate sales? Why is anyone getting up in arms about people doing whatever with their money? If you're morally against it, that's fine. I don't agree with the practice of buying and selling either. But I've also stopped concerning myself with what strangers on the Internet do with their money. Not like I could stop them anyways.

If you were trying to make a point, do so without the petty ad hominem next time.

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You're missing the point. By excluding people from the conversation, what does that accomplish? The selling of content has nothing to do with whether someone else can clear it. How is that a requirement to have an opinion on it? If you want to be exclusionary in regards to who is allowed to have an opinion on something, then you should accept when you yourself don't meet the standard someone else has set for the conversation. My "petty shots" were simply me applying my own standard to the conversation, which both of you did. If you find it petty, then so be it.

I'm trying not to exclude anyone from talking about this. You two are doing the exact opposite. Anyone can discuss. Saying, "you shouldn't even be allowed to talk about this" is absolutely hilarious when said on a public forum.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

But I do wish they would still put in a 3rd ultimate and do 3 per expansion hell, why not 4 per expansion? .

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I feel like the clear rate kind of speaks for itself on why they are never adding more then 2, it was already incredibly low but its actually even lower when consider a portion of the clears are sold and a portion are probably alt characters sellers use specifically for selling content.

On the whole selling issue, I just think its hypocritical to be extremely hard on 1 type of RMT and completely turn a blind eye on another.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

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The issue is not gil...its HOW...they are doing it...cross world.

I See them selling anything and everything under the shade. Cross-world
Where there are limits on gil transfers....and everything else in-between. The kind of thing that would be an utter nightmare/pain in the rear to achieve at the prices you inferred.

The fact they practically demand discord upfront...out of game conversations....is just a little too convenient for my tastes. It would be different if it was above board.....then yeah..go for it...not that I agree with it.
But RMT...is RMT....and I really wish SE would look into it.

*honestly people buying clears is bad enough as it is...not that I can stop them...but selling them via RMT is far worse.*

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Your stance is still contradictory because I could just as easily relent on Ultimate and say I'm upset about the selling of O8S, which I am more than capable of carrying people through. Also claiming I am "mad" because I can't sell it doesn't address anything I've said on the morals of selling for real money, how it breaks the ToS and how it is blatantly advertised. All you've said is "you're mad you can't sell it" which doesn't actually... do anything. Like even if I was mad, I mean, okay? And this somehow diminishes the point I've made how?

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Adding onto this, BECAUSE people sell the clears, we can't say only people who are on progression or have the weapon can comment on that. Because people could just as easily buy their way in if they have a big enough wallet, and then argue it's fine because they got the clear themself, pretending they didn't just spend over a grand on it.

Are there lots of people like that? No. Are there? Yep. And not actually joking on this like I was poking before on another post, I bet there is one here right now.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

You're missing the point. By excluding people from the conversation, what does that accomplish? The selling of content has nothing to do with whether someone else can clear it. How is that a requirement to have an opinion on it? If you want to be exclusionary in regards to who is allowed to have an opinion on something, then you should accept when you yourself don't meet the standard someone else has set for the conversation. My "petty shots" were simply me applying my own standard to the conversation, which both of you did. If you find it petty, then so be it.

I'm trying not to exclude anyone from talking about this. You two are doing the exact opposite. Anyone can discuss. Saying, "you shouldn't even be allowed to talk about this" is absolutely hilarious when said on a public forum.

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It is petty when you make things personal. Such as your comment about someone being carried because they have greys. That is personal, and it is a petty comment that was completely unnecessary to the conversation. If you have to resort to personal attacks to try and make a point, it's likely you don't have a point to begin with. Make the point without slinging mud; then maybe you have a good argument.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

But Lady Park, are the sellers not only selling ultimates, but also selling God Clears as well? Just so they can also sell the ultimate clear?

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All types of high-end content are sold, and so long as there are buyers there will be sellers. I've already stated I disagree with the practices, but there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop it. SE's own policy regarding "acceptable evidence" puts a full stop to any report regarding the PFs, and unless they lighten it, things will continue as they are. Rather than get worked up over fighting a losing battle, I just don't concern myself with it and focus on playing the game. You can't change the way people behave.

If people want to throw their money at virtual content clears, well, that's their decision. I don't agree with it, but it's not like I can control them. So I just concern myself with my own thing. The OP is more than welcome to her opinions and moral objections to the matter, as is anyone else; my issue with her points is she's resorting to pettiness and personal shots to make them (i.e., "Cleared? Carried is more like it.").

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Snip[/I]

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True, sadly nothing can be done for it. I know most who plays mmos do not wish to bring the real world into it but where their is a chance for greed, no matter how unfair it is, their will be those who will take advantage of it. Even worse is when they try to justify it.

If SE wishes to punish these players, they would need to assign a few GMs to watch for this activity and IP Track, but even then their are many ways to trick the GMs on this. The advertiser for the runs could utilize a VPN along with a dummy account on it, the user can also avoid scrutiny by utilizing Jump potions to take that account and character to 60, then spend at least a day to take it to 70.

The GMs would then have to utilize a search thru all logs for anyone who gets a Clear, and monitor them for sudden IP changes or any lack of communication with the party they got the clear with. That would take far too much time and man hours for the GMs to do, which they already have Gil selling/making RMTs to deal with as is. It would also be circumstantial as evidence.

Thus in the end, nothing can really be done. They could enforce something like being required to clear O1 to O4S with the same exact group, and then you must have that exact matched group to do Bahamut, then the same for O5 to O8S for Ultimate. It will alleviate much of the problem, but it will only stop most, the big whales will just simply pay the sellers for the entirety of the Runs they need then.

Greed always finds a way. That is the world we live in.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

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Actually they wouldn't need to work that hard.
They just need a few names....and start accepting screenshots from sources that are acceptable. With collaborating evidence.
If Microsoft can do it... PSN can do it..why not them?

For some reason they won't.
I already know the answer to that question (At least the most plausible one)....and that answer would spark a major argument/discussion of a different matter...I'd rather avoid that.
*Feel free to ping me in-game or discord if you want to chat about it :P*

But yes..greed tends to rule the day in the end.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Actually they wouldn't need to work that hard.
They just need a few names....and start accepting screenshots from sources that are acceptable. With collaborating evidence.
If Microsoft can do it... PSN can do it..why not them?

For some reason they won't.
I already know the answer to that question (At least the most plausible one)....and that answer would spark a major argument/discussion of a different matter...I'd rather avoid that.
*Feel free to ping me in-game or discord if you want to chat about it :P*

But yes..greed tends to rule the day in the end.

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And where would these screenshots come from? The buyers themselves? A jilted team member of the static who did not get his share of the cut? A Jealous FC member? A special investigative GM who stalks a advertiser but likely lead to a dead end due to that advertiser being on a dummy account?

Their are just so many loop holes. In the end though yes, something can be done about all this, but gotta look at it from a Suits perspective. Would it make them more money in the end to justify the cost of man hours and personnel to dedicate to something small like this?

In the end, its all about the Moola.

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

If SE wishes to punish these players, they would need to assign a few GMs to watch for this activity and IP Track, but even then their are many ways to trick the GMs on this. The advertiser for the runs could utilize a VPN along with a dummy account on it, the user can also avoid scrutiny by utilizing Jump potions to take that account and character to 60, then spend at least a day to take it to 70.

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They already use dummy characters. I've been seeing adverts from characters that names have references to the content (Which I won't list, can't name and shame) instead of using their mains. So if they make a mistake they aren't dead on their mains. XD

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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If you're issue is with how I made my points then you're being completely unproductive. I've already explained why I made my point the way I did. You could just as easily say it was personal when he implied someone else could speak about content because they hadn't unlocked it.

You, however, haven't addressed why you think it's okay to bare the vast majority of players on commenting about RMT.

I actually don't care about content selling. What I DO care about is when sellers use DF labels to make their ad spam go to the top of the list. Also, those screens aren't name shaming since obviously they aren't doing anything worth policing. :/

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

If you're issue is with how I made my points then you're being completely unproductive. I've already explained why I made my point the way I did. You could just as easily say it was personal when he implied someone else could speak about content because they hadn't unlocked it.

You, however, haven't addressed why you think it's okay to bare the vast majority of players on commenting about RMT.

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I already addressed my thoughts on this matter: I cannot control what others do with their money, so I don't concern myself with it, and I don't really understand why others do. I disagree with the practice, but I also recognize that fighting against it is more or less a losing battle, due to a combination of SE's system and the fact that you cannot control what other people do. I stated as much in my last post, so I would suggest you go back and read it in full.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Because I do agree with him--if people aren't even clearing God, why are they concerning themselves with Ultimate sales?

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You've yet to explain this and are continuing to dodge the question. Why does someone have to have cleared content to discuss RMT practices, violations of terms of service and the morals behind buying and selling content clears?

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

You've yet to explain this and are continuing to dodge the question. Why does someone have to have cleared content to discuss RMT practices, violations of terms of service and the morals behind buying and selling content clears?

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You conveniently omitted my follow-up question that was meant to go along with that question:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Because I do agree with him--if people aren't even clearing God, why are they concerning themselves with Ultimate sales? Why is anyone getting up in arms about people doing whatever with their money?

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That is my point: why are people getting so concerned with what others do? I don't understand the fascination people these days seem to have with what other people do. And I don't really understand why some people I see discussing this topic--people that do not even raid/participate in the content, or even care about it--suddenly start caring when content sales are involved. Is this really about it being a ToS violation only?

Moral objections are fine; I have objections about things, but there's no point in voicing them when they fall on deaf ears. I just don't understand why people feel the need to start crusades over something like this when it's very clear nothing will be done about it. Just like nothing is ever done about the other ToS violations. So I drop it and don't concern myself with it.