When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

PLEASE! the one bad thing about this game is the amount of AWFUL skill bloat. Just condensing combos in PVE down to one button would help SO much though! Modern games don't need 30+ skills to be challenging.

People whine its "Dumbing down" but sorry buddies, it's not, it's just trimming the fat.

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Or it's making combat incredibly dull and/or unengaging for some. I love DPSing as a healer but spamming my X button for Broil II gets a little boring. I prefer being able to press multiple buttons. Make it an optional thing and that would be fine, but making it mandatory? No thanks. I would become a full-time crafter at that point.

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Originally Posted by dotsforlife

Please don't encourage such atrocities... This game is already dumbed down as it is. They don't need to push the only good side of the game left into PvP's current mediocrity. A handful of skills could use a rework for sure, but that's it.

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I dont see how consolidating combos would be a bad thing , do u get that much extra game play from pushing a few extra buttons thats the same thing people got upset about cleric stance , and now many healers love how cleric is now

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

A lot of us who PvP aren't very fond of it because it wasn't given as an option. Just one sudden blanket change.

I can accept if it's an option. 3.x PvP hotbar settings were an option and I didn't use it. WXHB is an option and I don't use it. This skill consolidation in PvP now? Forced and unchangeable. That's what we don't want.

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this def makes sense it should be an option , let those whom prefer many buttons have it , and let those who want less buttons have it the sameway

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Originally Posted by Miste

What are you talking about here though cause you've confused me.

Like...my HW DRG was not 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3?

If I went by my bar specifically my HW DRG was 8-3-6-5-11/12-1-2-4-11/12 (this is just HT and both combos though ignoring oGCDs etc)

How is that the same as 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2?

I mean personally if you want to change DRG into 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3 that seems like a good way to get a RSI. Which is why if they ever forced consolidation I'd probably quit. Certain other jobs that spam one button too frequently already hurt my hands and fingers. Honestly maybe I'm the only one with that issue but pressing the same button repetitively is much harder on my hands and fingers than variation.

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In Heavensward, single-target combat alternated between two fixed rotational strings, HT-ID-Db-CT-[+1] or Pb-TT-VT-FT-[+1]. That was your rotation: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2. There were no cases where you varied from them. At most, if a boss could not take DoT damage during a jump phase, then [2] was used twice at the end, in place of [1]. Only in cleave situations with exactly 4 targets (at at least 4 ticks' damage) or where additionally able to pay off rotational desync did Pb ever free itself from -TT-VT-FT-[+1]. Only at a 2.33 GCD did HT split from -ID-Db-CT-[+1].

Even if you account for every niche situation by which Pb or HT could be split, that would have left you with 4 weaponskills, not 10. And now you have 3, because we've already pruned actual abilities in the name of saving button-space, instead of just merging that button-space where it amounted to a single skill simply dealt in 3-5 parts.

So I mean, if your aim is to see Heavy Thrust gone next expansion... by all means...

But otherwise, maybe something should be done about the fact that you have 6 unusable weaponskills every GCD that you're nonetheless spending buttons on.

I haven't touch pvp so had to watch some videos that system oversimplified combat like the gear in this game, I can see consolidated something's but not 100% on this as being the answer. /Shrugs

All these people talking about "Dumbing down the gameplay"....Seriously?


You are seriously calling pressing 1-3 buttons in an order "Gameplay"?


Nevermind the fact that you could probably do your dps rotation blindfolded and backwards so why the hell are you against just pressing 1-3 buttons to do a combo to make it easier to hit buttons FURTHER down your keyboard?

I'm not against the idea of needing to reduce bloat. It will need to happen.

I do have concerns with the machinist rotation. Unfortunately for me, that's my main.

I wouldn't have a problem as a ninja or monk pulling off rotations if changed correctly. Melee and tanks should be good here.

That said, how do we reduce the bloat on both physical and magical ranged classes without wrecking the classes? What about healer bloat?

I'm not sure how I feel about this...although when I was playing BLM in PvP I LOVED how it was set up and secretly wished it was like that for PvE...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Or it's making combat incredibly dull and/or unengaging for some. I love DPSing as a healer but spamming my X button for Broil II gets a little boring. I prefer being able to press multiple buttons. Make it an optional thing and that would be fine, but making it mandatory? No thanks. I would become a full-time crafter at that point.

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Wouldn't it then be better to actually have multiple weaponskill choices, then, rather than just a few skills, some of which require 3-4 buttons each? You've still got more flexibility in GCD attack choices even as a healer than your average melee, despite the latter having 2 to 3 times the button count.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Just for fun, I played around with possible alternatives for adding skills on DRG without needing to take away its combos.
- New Jumps that replace Jump and Spineshatter when procced off Fang & Claw or Wheeling Thrust

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So one of your solutions to not have skills taking the place of other skills after specific GCD is...to have skills taking place of others skills after specific GCD ?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In Heavensward, single-target combat alternated between two fixed rotational strings, HT-ID-Db-CT-[+1] or Pb-TT-VT-FT-[+1]. That was your rotation: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2. There were no cases where you varied from them.

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Miste's problem is not number of skills, but the number of buttons. By having skills on different buttons it lowers the physical burden on hers/his hand, which is more comfortable. A similar example would be if Diablo's attacks required you to click your mouse button each time instead of keeping it clicked, leading to more chance of carpal tunnel syndrome.

I can't believe people are seriously advocating in this day-and-age for literal, "1-1-1-1-1," button pressing.
If people are that concerned with button bloat we might as well kill most of the oGCDs and instead buff a singular one to be equivalent to the total damage of the ones removed + its own.
Time to make AoE one button for classes that don't already have it, not like it wasn't boring as it is.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Miste's problem is not number of skills, but the number of buttons. By having skills on different buttons it lowers the physical burden on hers/his hand, which is more comfortable. A similar example would be if Diablo's attacks required you to click your mouse button each time instead of keeping it clicked, leading to more chance of carpal tunnel syndrome.

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So is Bard just already unplayable? Is it not an option for such players to place Heavy Shot across multiple slots?

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

People have this idea that doing 1 2 3 on their keyboard makes them skilled and adds challenge to the gameplay. So when they see an idea to have only to tap 3 times one button instead of 3, for some reason its akin to dumbing the game down.

Like, do you guys hear yourselves sometimes? Or do you have such a hard time push/clicking your buttons that you've deluded yourselves into thinking it really sets you apart from the pvp system?

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^This, BLM is probably the class with the least buttons in their rotation, yet it is probably the hardest class to play in savage/EX enviroment, more buttons don't make a class harder.
Also

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

So when they see an idea to have only to tap 3 times one button instead of 3, for some reason its akin to dumbing the game down.

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The very only reason we don't do this already is because macros in this game suck. Which makes me believe they suck intentionally so that people don't macro their combos.

But again, if they would remove every redundant skill from the game dragoons would end up with 6 or 7 buttons to press.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So is Bard just already unplayable?

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Definitely not unplayable since s/he is BRD 70, but perhaps not really comfortable. This is not something that could be "argued", though...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Is it not an option for such players to place Heavy Shot across multiple slots?

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Yes, it still is. You could place the same combo on multiple slots to still have to press different buttons. But that would ask the player to specifically alter its hotbars only to compensate for an adjustement that would specifically be made to free some slots on the hotbars....which would be stupid if the change was implemented alone...which is her/his initial concern.

Hopefully never. There is zero reason to further simplify and hemogenize job abilities by condensing multiple abilities into one combo. Please stop asking for this.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Definitely not unplayable since s/he is BRD 70, but perhaps not really comfortable. This is not something that could be "argued", though...

Yes, it still is. You could place the same combo on multiple slots to still have to press different buttons. But that would ask the player to specifically alter its hotbars only to compensate for an adjustement that would specifically be made to free some slots on the hotbars....which would be stupid if the change was implemented alone...which is her/his initial concern.

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Both questions were rhetorical, but in that case:

How is Bard playable while creating a similar one-to-one system between weaponskill choices and weaponskill button count be unplayable?

I'd totally be up for this. The game is easy enough pressing loadsa stuff and weaving OGCD's and stuff, can still do the same with less buttons and an actual combo system. It's not going to change or have any impact on the difficulty. Actual PVP is some of the most thrilling and engaging content if you want to be skillfull and tactical.

I think some of you, have the notion that if the PVP combo system comes we will lose access to some skills like in the Wolves Den content and stuff...and that is NOT what OP even mentioned at all.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Miste's problem is not number of skills, but the number of buttons. By having skills on different buttons it lowers the physical burden on hers/his hand, which is more comfortable. A similar example would be if Diablo's attacks required you to click your mouse button each time instead of keeping it clicked, leading to more chance of carpal tunnel syndrome.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So is Bard just already unplayable? Is it not an option for such players to place Heavy Shot across multiple slots?

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That might be a preference but not a physical burden. The Diablo analogy would be that there are a limited number of hotkeys to fire skills like the console version with movement done by mouse clicks. Moving without the mouse and using WASD in addition to hotkeys would be the big number of button presses.

A click is a click whether it is 1 button or 128 buttons, the chance of carpal tunnel syndrome comes with hand position and the required movement across multiple keys. Hence why there are exercises for learning how to type the correct way to prevent/mitigate injury.

Less buttons are conducive to less injuries, and allow faster manipulation, one just need look at the economy of motion theory. The whole theory is based around limited safe movement. This goes for physical work, sports, music, etc.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

I'd totally be up for this. The game is easy enough pressing loadsa stuff and weaving OGCD's and stuff, can still do the same with less buttons and an actual combo system. It's not going to change or have any impact on the difficulty. Actual PVP is some of the most thrilling and engaging content if you want to be skillfull and tactical.

I think some of you, have the notion that if the PVP combo system comes we will lose access to some skills like in the Wolves Den content and stuff...and that is NOT what OP even mentioned at all.

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Yeah trimming the fat from our hotbars is only going to have a positive effect. people are naturally afraid of change though, especially when they don't understand the change.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Or it's making combat incredibly dull and/or unengaging for some. I love DPSing as a healer but spamming my X button for Broil II gets a little boring. I prefer being able to press multiple buttons. Make it an optional thing and that would be fine, but making it mandatory? No thanks. I would become a full-time crafter at that point.

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Place Broil2 on 1-2-3 and pretend it's a combo and, idk, hurt yourself when you do a mistake. There, problem solved. Now your rotation is obviously 1000% more difficult and engaging.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Yeah trimming the fat from our hotbars is only going to have a positive effect. people are naturally afraid of change though, especially when they don't understand the change.

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There are plenty of people who understand the change that just don't want it. Saying it's "only going to have a positive effect," is an opinion, not a fact.

The more I read this thread the more I shake my head, the constant "people don't understand," "people are afraid of change," constant awful sarcasm, etc etc is incredibly patronizing. This isn't hard to understand, at all. Just because in your mind, there is no reason to disagree with you, and that your argument is infallible, doesn't mean that it is. Your inability to understand why people disagree with you does not mean that they are simply finding it hard to understand or are "afraid of change." Stop projecting.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That was your rotation: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2.

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... what are you talking about? It seems as though you're conflating the whole combo as a single sequence when that isn't what I nor Miste meant. My current keybinds has me pressing: ALT:1-2-3-4 into 1-2-3-4 to perform both DRG combos, respectively. Therefore, I am pressing four buttons and holding down a fifth. Consolidating them into single buttons would change my keybinds to: ALT: 1-1-1-1 into 1-1-1-1. One button while also holding down a modifier. The latter is how PvP works and I don't like it. Those of us advocating bring that system over to PvE prefer having the former four buttons in lieu of just one.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So one of your solutions to not have skills taking the place of other skills after specific GCD is...to have skills taking place of others skills after specific GCD ?

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Do I really have to spell out the differences between a GCD and oGCD? The latter often sit on long CDs doing absolutely nothing. Say Mirage Dive replaced Jump and/or Spineshatter after they were used. It functionally changes little since both oGCD won't be touched for another 30-60s; more than double the length of Mirage Dive's proc duration. GCD combos are something we press every 2.5 seconds barring Skillspeed.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

I'd totally be up for this. The game is easy enough pressing loadsa stuff and weaving OGCD's and stuff, can still do the same with less buttons and an actual combo system. It's not going to change or have any impact on the difficulty. Actual PVP is some of the most thrilling and engaging content if you want to be skillfull and tactical.

I think some of you, have the notion that if the PVP combo system comes we will lose access to some skills like in the Wolves Den content and stuff...and that is NOT what OP even mentioned at all.

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Please don't condescend. I am fully aware how the change would be implemented nor am I under any false assumptions we will suddenly lose a boatload of skills. We simply don't like it. This has nothing whatsoever to being "afraid of change" or whatever nonsense. So stop telling us how we feel about the OP's idea.

Edit: Post limits are stupid SE

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I guess you have...to yourself...since procing Mirage Dive (a CD) from Jump (a CD) is not the suggestion you made. Procing a special jump from a GCD means you'll likely use this jump just after your GCD, and probably before the next GCD. So, in the end, you'll still "change" the layout of your hotbar over the course of a GCD.

Which doesn't change the fact that you'll still press the same number of buttons even if a full combo only use one slot.

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No you wouldn't. If they made such a change, you would either weave Jump in earlier, it and the new oGCD have separate CDs or the new oGCD has a proc (Mirage Dive-esque) and won't appear until Jump has been used. There are numerous ways they could implement such an idea, though it is merely that: an idea. And not a fully fleshed out one, I'll admit. Regardless, pressing the same number of buttons hasn't been the issue. It's the idea of taking 1-2-3-4 and reducing it to 1-1-1-1 we dislike. Pressing my Jump keybind twice merely adds an additional use to a keybind I otherwise only use every 30s. When I have multiple oGCDs on cooldowns spanning over a minute, there is plenty to work with there.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So is Bard just already unplayable? Is it not an option for such players to place Heavy Shot across multiple slots?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I can't believe people are seriously advocating in this day-and-age for literal, "1-1-1-1-1," button pressing.
If people are that concerned with button bloat we might as well kill most of the oGCDs and instead buff a singular one to be equivalent to the total damage of the ones removed + its own.
Time to make AoE one button for classes that don't already have it, not like it wasn't boring as it is.

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One button, two buttons, that's why AoE are boring, there is no combo just cycling rotations for the most part. Or those AoE with no precision placement, just target on enemy and murder legions around it. That's why I usually don't like healing in mmos, most of it consists of targeting a player or their name and spamming add nauseum.

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I want some cool synergy combo for black mage

1.Lay down oil field

Option:
2.Shoot a fireball across the oil which transforms into a fireball 2, if a tank shield bashes that midway, it accelerates hitting target for high critical damage.
3.Or Set the oil on fire for a fire field so ranged dps can gain a fire damage buff on their ammo
4. Or Set yourself on fire and run into enemies for fire debuff, while under fire the black make can cast a Flare 2
5.Or have a white mage cast aero on the oil and spray it into enemies faces for an enhanced blind.

1B. Lay down an ice field

Option:
2. Have a monk rockbreaker the ice sending splintered shards for a frostbite debuff on surrounding enemies.
3. Or melt the ice yourself and cause hot steam to burn enemies
4. Or allow a astrologian to cast comet or comet 2 when casting through a field of ice.
5. Or scholar to gain enhanced galvanize when fighting in an ice field.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Do I really have to spell out the differences between a GCD and oGCD? The latter often sit on long CDs doing absolutely nothing. Say Mirage Dive replaced Jump and/or Spineshatter after they were used.

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I guess you have...to yourself...since procing Mirage Dive (a CD) from Jump (a CD) is not the suggestion you made. Procing a special jump from a GCD means you'll likely use this jump just after your GCD, and probably before the next GCD. So, in the end, you'll still "change" the layout of your hotbar over the course of a GCD.

Which doesn't change the fact that you'll still press the same number of buttons even if a full combo only use one slot.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

If people are that concerned with button bloat we might as well kill most of the oGCDs and instead buff a singular one to be equivalent to the total damage of the ones removed + its own.

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That was overdramatization pages ago in this thread and it still is...having the combo on a single button would change nothing on how you plan your GCDs over the course of the fight...

EDIT : Solidarity against post limit :p

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If they made such a change, you would either weave Jump in earlier, it and the new oGCD have separate CDs or the new oGCD has a proc (Mirage Dive-esque) and won't appear until Jump has been used.

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If F&C procs new NewJump in place of Jump, on the condition that jump is used, you can feel forced to use Jump to have access to NewJump, and perhaps you'd want to save Jump for a little later...but that later might mean you can lose the NewJump proc, if it takes too much time. You could end with suboptimal situation by linking abilities that have no relation whatsoever.

By keeping the combo chain as the only "procs" you change nothing on the current dynamic (Well, except, maybe for MNK), since you never want to use a 2nd or 3rd WS by itself, and you also never need to reset the same combo.

It's hilarious that people are blowing this out of proportion and say things like "they might as well give each job one button and instantly win the game".

Also, I think consolidating combos would give jobs room for more weaponskills and abilities. It's going to be necessary in the future.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That was overdramatization pages ago in this thread and it still is...having the combo on a single button would change nothing on how you plan your GCDs over the course of the fight...

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It's not overdramatization. If people are so concerned with button bloat as their main reason for consolidating combos, then we might as well consolidate oGCDs too. It's not an extreme in the slightest, there is no reason to have multiple oGCD buttons if we don't need multiple combo buttons. The only reason is preference, which a lot of people have already made clear they do not care about. "You prefer having multiple buttons for combos? Too bad," is the essence of some posts here. You prefer having multiple oGCDs? Too bad. After all, pressing extra oGCDs isn't more difficulty, it's just pressing more buttons, just like with combos.

Just because it is not aligning with your argument or convenient for your viewpoint does not mean it is "overdramatization."

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

It's hilarious that people are blowing this out of proportion and say things like "they might as well give each job one button and instantly win the game".

Also, I think consolidating combos would give jobs room for more weaponskills and abilities. It's going to be necessary in the future.

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Highlighting the particular section I am going to address.... so, why? Why is it necessary for them to add more weaponskills and abilities? There honestly isn't a reason to continue piling skills on top of what we already have as they have also shown us they have the capability to tier up skills we currently have into different forms and then sync them down again when you're in under-leveled content. For the most part it seems like the toolkits many jobs have currently is pretty flexible and complete, and typically in an MMO they only add skills and abilities to counter specific mechanics they've added to the game... which isn't necessary if they're smart about adding ways to counter those mechanics without adding individual skills which we have already seen with Vril.

If they are smart about it, they can keep the skill bloat way down to a minimum by further leveraging the tier system for skills, by adding new effects through traits or any other variety of methods that don't involve specifically adding X new skills to the jobs every expansion. The only reason these days it's seen as 'necessary' by the population is because that's the meta they're used to seeing. Shiny new skills, flashy new animations, brand new eye candy with new possibilities.... all of which can be accomplished without the need for bloat and without having to further condense the system. They have the technology and I'd rather see them leverage that than blindly add new slot-able skills just because that's what's expected.

Sometimes there are things that sound good that when you look at the details are not good. It's like politics, it sounds good but when you actually study it and educate yourself about it it's not a good change/solution.

Just because it sounds good doesn't mean it is.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Highlighting the particular section I am going to address.... so, why? Why is it necessary for them to add more weaponskills and abilities? There honestly isn't a reason to continue piling skills on top of what we already have as they have also shown us they have the capability to tier up skills we currently have into different forms and then sync them down again when you're in under-leveled content. For the most part it seems like the toolkits many jobs have currently is pretty flexible and complete, and typically in an MMO they only add skills and abilities to counter specific mechanics they've added to the game... which isn't necessary if they're smart about adding ways to counter those mechanics without adding individual skills which we have already seen with Vril.

If they are smart about it, they can keep the skill bloat way down to a minimum by further leveraging the tier system for skills, by adding new effects through traits or any other variety of methods that don't involve specifically adding X new skills to the jobs every expansion. The only reason these days it's seen as 'necessary' by the population is because that's the meta they're used to seeing. Shiny new skills, flashy new animations, brand new eye candy with new possibilities.... all of which can be accomplished without the need for bloat and without having to further condense the system. They have the technology and I'd rather see them leverage that than blindly add new slot-able skills just because that's what's expected.

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This is actually an incredibly great solution. To evolve some skills like they did with the healers. Either that or the skill tree idea where you choose the skill you want that is similar to another but has different use but similar potency. Or both of these ideas together I really like.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

If people are so concerned with button bloat as their main reason for consolidating combos, then we might as well consolidate oGCDs too. It's not an extreme in the slightest, there is no reason to have multiple oGCD buttons if we don't need multiple combo buttons.

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Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

Fusing oGCD...like, for example fusing Blood Weapon and Blood Price and only change them according to Grit would prevent you from using one of them, then switching stance, and using the other. It would significantly reduce how you plan your whole rotation.

The most blatant proof of that is that, were you to look at fflogs timeline, having combos on a single button would give you the exact same timeline. Can you say the same about fusing oGCDs ?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Place Broil2 on 1-2-3 and pretend it's a combo and, idk, hurt yourself when you do a mistake. There, problem solved. Now your rotation is obviously 1000% more difficult and engaging.

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Missing the point entirely.

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press; it has nothing to do with “difficulty”, since I don’t find it particularly difficult to press the amount of buttons we have now. I do not want condensed combos, and neither do a lot of other posters here. It’s fine if they want to make it an optional feature rather than a mandatory one like it is in the new PvP. But make it mandatory, and I doubt I’ll enjoy PvE content where I can do an entire job’s opener/rotation in 3 buttons or less.

I'd be ok with condensed combos.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

If they are smart about it, they can keep the skill bloat way down to a minimum by further leveraging the tier system for skills, by adding new effects through traits or any other variety of methods that don't involve specifically adding X new skills to the jobs every expansion. The only reason these days it's seen as 'necessary' by the population is because that's the meta they're used to seeing. Shiny new skills, flashy new animations, brand new eye candy with new possibilities.... all of which can be accomplished without the need for bloat and without having to further condense the system. They have the technology and I'd rather see them leverage that than blindly add new slot-able skills just because that's what's expected.

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It would be great to see entire combos transform after level 70. New animations, new effects, purely based from traits. It would remove the need to add new buttons and still give everyone something new to play with.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

Fusing oGCD...like, for example fusing Blood Weapon and Blood Price and only change them according to Grit would prevent you from using one of them, then switching stance, and using the other. It would significantly reduce how you plan your whole rotation.

The most blatant proof of that is that, were you to look at fflogs timeline, having combos on a single button would give you the exact same timeline. Can you say the same about fusing oGCDs ?

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The same way that making the "PVP," system for Monk would be an absolute mess, since Perfect Balance is not simply, "mash the final button in your combo chain." My generalization was regarding offensive oGCDs.

Regarding timeline and reduction of "planning rotation," my point was that people are constantly stating "pressing more buttons does not mean more difficulty." Why should we need more than one button for offensive oGCDs then? Because the timeline and the rotation would change? According to most posters here, that's just "fake difficulty," and "pressing buttons in order isn't hard." A rotation is more or less still one-directional just like pressing combos, it's just not spelled out for you on your UI like combos are.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Why is it necessary for them to add more weaponskills and abilities?

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Then what else will they add? Traits won't be enough to give jobs something new. Also the skills that act as upgrades or replace certain skills are also called weaponskills and abilities.

However, I'm sure they'll also add weaponskills/abilities that can only act individually. We're going to need room for that.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Place Broil2 on 1-2-3 and pretend it's a combo and, idk, hurt yourself when you do a mistake. There, problem solved. Now your rotation is obviously 1000% more difficult and engaging.

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Since you're probably missing something here...

You're right, it'd not difficult to press 1 2 3 compred to 1 1 1, but with how our minds work, pressing 1 2 3 is more engaging, because things are moving and we're thinking. It'd bore players down to the point where they don't want to bother.

If we DO want to make this about difficulty, this of course doesn't lower the skill ceiling. It only raises the skill floor, because it makes it physically impossibly to spam one part of the combo instead of doing the actual combo. But that also sounds like it'd be Square going, "The playerbase isn't good at doing basic combo's, so we're going to let the game do it for them."

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Then what else will they add? Traits won't be enough to give jobs something new. Also the skills that act as upgrades or replace certain skills are also called weaponskills and abilities.

However, I'm sure they'll also add weaponskills/abilities that can only act individually. We're going to need room for that.

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My point is they don't necessarily need to add anything. Once again, the reason that "New Expansion = New Individual Skills" is because that's how it's always been done. When I say they don't need to "add" weaponskills and abilities, I mean they don't have to add any individual, specific skill and can instead find ways to transform older skills in meaningful ways. Increased potency, added effects, new animation, new name for a new tier on a skill that takes the place of a skill you already have from a lower level. Once again, I think there are better ways for them to leverage the changes they've made to the system that can change up the formula without having to inherently increase the actual active skill count.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If F&C procs new NewJump in place of Jump, on the condition that jump is used, you can feel forced to use Jump to have access to NewJump, and perhaps you'd want to save Jump for a little later...but that later might mean you can lose the NewJump proc, if it takes too much time. You could end with suboptimal situation by linking abilities that have no relation whatsoever.

By keeping the combo chain as the only "procs" you change nothing on the current dynamic (Well, except, maybe for MNK), since you never want to use a 2nd or 3rd WS by itself, and you also never need to reset the same combo.

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Not necessarily. Jump is currently used after Chaos Thrust. So if this new ability required a full combo, you'd do Chaos Thrust -> Jump -> Wheeling Thrust and new Jump procs either there or after Fang and Claw. An alternative is they don't share the same CD. So if the new oGCD takes over, you use it and Jump is available right away, provided you hadn't already used it. For example purposes...

Blackfire Dive - lvl xx
Delivers an attack with a potency of x
Can only be executed while under the effects of Blackfire

Blackfire (Trait)
Upon executing a full Wheeling Thrust and Fang & Claw combo, Dragonfire Dive will change to Blackfire Dive.

Make it so Dragonfire Dive's CD is unaffected by this change and you've added a new ability that takes the place of another oGCD that would otherwise be on cooldown for 120s; somewhat similar to how Nastrond replaces Geirskogul now. Admittedly, there would likely need to be some adjustments but this is just off the top of my head. There are plenty of alternative they could toy with. The point is it doesn't disrupt the combos but does add a new ability.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Once again, I think there are better ways for them to leverage the changes they've made to the system that can change up the formula without having to inherently increase the actual active skill count.

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There is, yes, but I doubt they won't stop adding individual weaponskills and abilities either.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

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So MNK is excluded?
Good ^^

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What stops me? The fact they would inevitably add more abilities, thus taking up my hotbar real estate and forcing me to start mapping abilities to QERTFGZXC all to dumb down the combat even further.

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So, adding abilities is bad, because it dumbs down combat.

Having locked out weaponskills, such that 4 keys are required to perform a single smallest divisible viable string of actions, is good, because they complicate combat?

Having oGCDs that are rarely usable is bad, because they waste space.

But having 6+ weaponskills that cannot be used except during every third to fourth GCD is good, because "they're combos"?

Do you not see how ridiculously double-standard this is?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Like I said previously, people bitch and moan over how boring AoE rotations are. Consolidating our base combos essentially makes them into that.

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AoE rotations are boring because they have on average only a single spammable skill or indivisible skill sequence (DS-ST), not because it's bound to one button. Putting ST on a separate button from DS did not make DRG combos any more interesting. At most, the added BotD duration later attached to ST allowed for additional Geirskogul use during pure AoE; that's it.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If they can make it so Geirskogul and Nastrond share a button dependent on DRG's gauge, they can implement new abilities in other ways.

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Yes. And they can fix what problems, as per their own admission of perception when adding Unchained and Inner Release to auto-swapped keys, remain now.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Or how about making our combos more interesting so Vorpal Thrust isn't just filler? There are plenty of better alternatives than spamming one button.

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By all means, but that would actually be "fixing what ain't broke". You'd be increasing complexity to the point currently pretended at, rather than removing that pretense and allowing for that complexity elsewhere. Both work just fine, imo. Heck, I'd much rather see the weaponskills remain separate, so long as they actually have a case in which they can be used separately.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, this really wouldn't be an optional feature. Those of us who hate it either have to [continue to] bloat their keyboard/hotbar space or grudgingly accept. Hence why we don't want it at all.

Edit:

Just for fun, I played around with possible alternatives for adding skills on DRG without needing to take away its combos.

- New Jumps that replace Jump and Spineshatter when procced off Fang & Claw or Wheeling Thrust
- Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel can now activate Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust, respectively, changing their effects
- Remove other redundant abilities like Piercing Talon or Heavy Thrust
- Merge Life Surge's effect into Vorpal Thrust
- Allow long duration oGCDs to have secondary abilities tied into them. Battle Litany sits doing nothing for three minutes. Having it switch to another ability not only saves hotbar space but adds activity to the job

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Again, I don't understand why you would even consider removing window-driving abilities like Heavy Thrust or Life Surge just to protect grayed out skills, especially when you seem to have an issue with exactly that so long as they're oGCDs instead. Why should, say, CT being a non-skill until after Db be perfectly good and complicating and satisfying, yet Battle Litany be seen as unsatisfying due to lack of presence over time when it actually sees use — and with greater nuance, control, and inherent complexity — 11.1% of the time compared to CT's 9.09% of the time? I'm not intending to protect Battle Litany in saying this — I sure as hell think it could stand some improvement in its presence over time as well, including that most simple matter of maximal uses per minute — but that makes no sense.

By all means, add some vigor to the oGCD toolkit, and make each skill feel more present and impactful, but don't start trashing actual complexity or skill choices just to ensure that no one has the right not to waste their hotbar space on unusable abilities.