Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

After I ran into today... If you want people play healers, make tanking easier so healers are not stressed over tanks that take too much damage. I know this is not going to be done since most people feel the game easy as is, not healing is very stressful with bad tanks.

---

Cascade effect of MOAR DPS NAO!! meta.

Just as everyone debates how much DPS healers should be doing to speed things up, so too do people debate dropping tank stance, pulling 3+ packs at once for AE, etc. Just tanking in tank stance and pulling one pack at a time? Sure, if you are a subpar sprout who sucks at gaming, L2p_gitgud_lulz.

And tank players not in the overgeared, i270 crowd read those discussions and figure they are screwing up by not pulling a third of the dungeon at once like the pro-style players (who didn't start doing it until they were overgeared and had properly overgeared teammates, btw). And the discussion always centers on everyone should know how to handle that because L2P_gitgud_lulz. And you get tanks who hardly ever use CDs, stand in fires, don't max gear iLvl and melds, etc who take subpar gear/skills to these mass pulls when they have no business doing it at all, and/or you get DPS who never got the "everyone has AE, so let's all use our area stuff" memo, and have neither the skills nor the gear to do proper AE dmg. In my experience, BLM are the only people who you can count on for AE in DF pugs. SMN are about 50-50, and almost nobody else ever tries, at least in my DF groups.

Cascading effects. One bad thing plus another bad thing leads to a whole series of bad things, almost all based on keeping up with the meta that is half forum myth, half overgeared reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venjenz

Snip

---

MCH here, got my grenades and bishop for ya. (Really wreaks a number on TP, but I generally don't have problems unless there's no break between like 3 pulls, because cross-class invigorate can go a long way)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

MCH here, got my grenades and bishop for ya. (Really wreaks a number on TP, but I generally don't have problems unless there's no break between like 3 pulls, because cross-class invigorate can go a long way)

---

please tell me you switch over to spread shot once the excess tp (over 600) + invigorate is used when things are showing they are not dying fast enough at that point to keep spaming that. Speaking of, brds that spam wide volly and mnks that single DPS every pull pulling hate on that one thing, while leaving me do all the damage as SMN, is also aggravating. Venjenz has a point though, look at the replies I got in the story thread=/ ugh.

That post is really spot on, for me its mnks 33%, though I tend to see higher then 50/50 for smn though.

BLM is easy to do decent aoe, but good ones (with good tanks) spam that thundercloud in the mix while doing the pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

MCH here, got my grenades and bishop for ya. (Really wreaks a number on TP, but I generally don't have problems unless there's no break between like 3 pulls, because cross-class invigorate can go a long way)

---

I will stipulate that MCH tend to be ahead of SMN and not too far from BLM where reliable AE play is concerned. I don't get them that often in DF pugs. When I get BLM and MCH at the outset, I may do the first pull as a single, and normally, I know within seconds that that DPS combo says go go go.

My bad on forgetting MCHs. But really, it's few jobs and fewer people who play that kind of speed pull DPS well. And the "go go go" meta requires everyone doing their part to make it work, not just a tank willing to round up 12+ mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venjenz

Cascade effect of MOAR DPS NAO!! meta.

Just as everyone debates how much DPS healers should be doing to speed things up, so too do people debate dropping tank stance, pulling 3+ packs at once for AE, etc. Just tanking in tank stance and pulling one pack at a time? Sure, if you are a subpar sprout who sucks at gaming, L2p_gitgud_lulz.

And tank players not in the overgeared, i270 crowd read those discussions and figure they are screwing up by not pulling a third of the dungeon at once like the pro-style players (who didn't start doing it until they were overgeared and had properly overgeared teammates, btw). And the discussion always centers on everyone should know how to handle that because L2P_gitgud_lulz. And you get tanks who hardly ever use CDs, stand in fires, don't max gear iLvl and melds, etc who take subpar gear/skills to these mass pulls when they have no business doing it at all, **snip**
Cascading effects. One bad thing plus another bad thing leads to a whole series of bad things, almost all based on keeping up with the meta that is half forum myth, half overgeared reality.

---

This is a pretty concise and accurate statement of why the MOAR DPS meta exists and how it has infected other play. I can understand the need for pushing DPS hard in end-game content. I understand why it is needed there. But it's that cascade into other content and other parts of the player community that causes problems. Tanks who are just over the min ilvl for a dungeon have no place trying to mass pull the dungeon, DPS in the same position will write checks that their weapon can't cash and healers will fall behind if the tank is geared to multi-pull unless they too are equally overgeared.

And of course healers who are always behind the curve trying to catch up with the incoming damage while the tank continues to run forward as if the healer can instacast their heals. Yep, perfect recipe for a smooth an enjoyable run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

for me its mnks 33%, though I tend to see higher then 50/50 for smn though.

BLM is easy to do decent aoe, but good ones (with good tanks) spam that thundercloud in the mix while doing the pulls.

---

For me, MNKs are around 10%...maybe. BLM, MCH and SMN are the only DPS who I see any proper AE from with any sort of reliability. And for anyone besides BLM, there is no AE unless a BLM is there to get the ball rolling, even SMN and MCH. Not saying that makes those players bad, just that the meta of "everyone can clear any dungeon in under 5 minutes, just L2P_gitgud_lulz" is not realistic a lot of the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

This is going to sound incredibly elitist here so I do apologise in advance, but I can't really see a better way to put this across or sugar coat it.

---

No worries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I see people passionately shouting this 'content DOESNT require healers to DPS ooh my'. Pretty much every single time my curiosity gets the better of me and I go to have a look, no logs, no raid mounts on lodestone thus is fairly safe to assume no experience to back it up =/ By all means prove me wrong, I don't mean this as a personal attack, rather I just love a good debate <3

---

No one will be able to see my main by looking at my lodestone and I'm not in any hurry to change that either. Suffice to say I do have experience in current tier raids as a healer and dps. I have yet to clear a12s but I have the rest down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

In the content you've experienced, you are absolutely correct, I'm fairly certain it's mathematically possible to beat expert roulette with auto attack damage. And yes, if you hold off hitting savage until your group has mostly tome/24 man gear then you can also easily get away without it.

---

Noted. Also since you say this the following confuses me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

However, saying that healer DPS is absolutely NOT required to clear savage is just as incorrect as saying it IS. To counter quote and bold:

---

This is contradictory. It either is or it isn't. There's no middle ground here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yoshida
Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible.

---

SE never intended for players to have to use healer dps to clear content. This was something players figured out they could do to cheese the system and get clears sooner then they would have been able to otherwise. Indeed sooner then the devs intended. If you are playing the game as the devs intended then dps from healers is not required. It's only when we start going by player made rules and player established Metas that healer dps becomes required, but only because players said it is. All content can be cleared in a timely manner without healer dps if everyone is geared appropriately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Now note that SE typically work on the assumption that the 'min' ilvl is about halfway through that tier and yes, the progression FCs going for early clears will generally find themselves in a situation where they do actually require DPS optimisation from both their healers and tanks.

This disparity in opinion seems to stem between those that have experienced progression raiding in endgame content vs those that haven't. Both sides would do well to appreciate this and perhaps even accept that rather than being as cut and dry as Yoshida would like, it's actually a bit of a grey area.

---

It's grey area only because players have learned to adapt to what they are given in ways the devs did not foresee. Rather than waiting for the dps to be appropriately geared to down the content people figured out they could use healer dps to beat it while being undergeared. I would use the fact that the devs nerfed Holy into oblivion to back this up. They realized what players had figured out. They realized their mistake and they took steps to try to fix it.


So anyway, I am responding in regards to people claiming that the devs intended for people to dps as healers when they clearly didn't.

As to if people should or not is a whole other debate.

I didn't read every post but I don't mind Cleric Stance, it provides me a nice amount of gameplay over just standing there and waiting to heal someone. But what about tank stance dancing why does no one mention this. I saw someone in an earlier post say make it even across the board, that applies to everything. Ultimately, Cleric Stance isn't the real issue; we all know what the real issue is we just prefer not to acknowledge it. Oh, and in regards to th OP, Cleric Stance is easiest on SCH not the hardest, I dunno what made them think that.

Cleric Stance is one of the few reasons I can stomach playing the healer role on occasion. Without having to stance dance it is just way too easy. WHM especially needs Cleric Stance to make the job feel more robust. SCH and AST have a little more juggling to do but are also enhanced by Cleric's.

I have a feeling that they ARE going to get rid of it but I'm going to be very sad to see it go. Personally, if they do, and don't replace it with something as interesting the opposite will happen for me... I will be playing healer less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faliandra

The real problem is more like "How to get people to ´become good healers".



And I bet you, some are still gonna refuse it as a matter of principle. And some are still gonna be like "But, but...the tank could miraculously get one-shotted and die while I'm in the middle of casting Stone II for 2 seconds"

The people who would dps more without cleric stance are the people who would eventually start dpsing anyway once they feel more comfortable.
Only difference I expect here is that they might be inclined to start dpsing sooner because the risk/penalty of cleric stance is gone.

---

So you become a good healer by...attacking?
You better improve that slacking DPS of yours before begging for more damage so you can kill something relatevely "fast"

This only will make healers move to other roles, like the "Im thever the one to blame even if my dps is low" DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keikun

So you become a good healer by...attacking?
You better improve that slacking DPS of yours before begging for more damage so you can kill something relatevely "fast"

This only will make healers move to other roles, like the "Im thever the one to blame even if my dps is low" DPS.

---

Youre talking like youre assuming im maining a dps? In fact, I main WHM/AST through every kind of content and SCH for more casual content.
Also,if i DO happen to play DPS, you can be very sure I'm doing just fine with my dps.



As for your first question: You need to optimize how to use your healing skills in order to dps more and you need to know the fight very well to guesstimate
incoming damage etc. So yes, it does make you a better healer because it takes FORESIGHT.

Also,if you had read at least half of this thread, youd see that removing cleric stance would make more healers quit than keeping it the way it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

This is contradictory. It either is or it isn't. There's no middle ground here.

---

You're missing a fairly big part of the picture I think? =(

Progression teams that start raid content on the first day it's released will generally be quite significantly under geared vs the ilvl the content is tuned to. Thus the frequent requirement in the past to load up on VIT to survive aoes as well as of course, the absolute need for healer DPS to get a clear in this situation (as well as often quite significant tank optimisation as well).

A more casual group that starts further down the line is going to have a bunch of tome and perhaps even 24 man gear bumping their ilvl up to and above the tipping point. Thus they likely won't need healer DPS to get the kill (although in many cases, it can make it significantly easier, A12S is the perfect example of this).

Try to remember that going in with an extra 30 iLvls over the day one progression teams amounts to around 30% more DPS, and that's before we start taking more optimised strats and of course echo into consideration. As Yoshida stated, the healers and tanks end have to pick up some of that slack.

TLDR: Going into savage on day 1? Your healers are going to have to DPS. Going in a few months after it's release? It's not absolutely required.

Elysium's world first A3S kill is a great example of how tightly tuned savage can be at release.

Lastly, please also appreciate that A9S-A12S are collectively the easiest and most forgiving end game tier we've yet seen in FFXIV.

Tbh as a tank i don´t mind when healers just heal.
I´m a legacy player on a new account. I have done a lot of tanking, and i remember only needing the healer to cleric dance, when the dps aren't doing enough damage.
Like on those old brayflox runs .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delukard7

Like on those old brayflox runs .

---

Speaking of Brayflox runs, I remember when I was a baby white mage that we were actually expected to use Repose on the big boss in the second fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

please tell me you switch over to spread shot once the excess tp (over 600) + invigorate is used when things are showing they are not dying fast enough at that point to keep spaming that. Speaking of, brds that spam wide volly and mnks that single DPS every pull pulling hate on that one thing, while leaving me do all the damage as SMN, is also aggravating. Venjenz has a point though, look at the replies I got in the story thread=/ ugh.

That post is really spot on, for me its mnks 33%, though I tend to see higher then 50/50 for smn though.

BLM is easy to do decent aoe, but good ones (with good tanks) spam that thundercloud in the mix while doing the pulls.

---

What doesn't die fast enough to not use grenades?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

What doesn't die fast enough to not use grenades?

---

Mnks that do not aoe i guess with a non-dps healer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Mnks that do not aoe i guess with a non-dps healer?

---

You just need more grenades then. And probably drop a hypercharge for good measure.

In all seriousness though, spread shot has it's uses and I do use it when necessary, but in endgame content where everyone is overgeared grenado does the trick and thensome. Generally speaking, my priority is hot shot > blood for blood if the pull is suitably dangerous, hypercharge if pack is large or I have a BLM, SMN, or WHM with me > Grenado 4 lyfe, rapid fire if that pack gotta die now 'cause the tank overpulled. Mix in ricochets where possible. Hell, mix in all oGCDs when possible. Blank if it's not gonna knock back. Just keep that up until you're down to 3 or less mobs, then single target is more efficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

SE never intended for players to have to use healer dps to clear content. This was something players figured out they could do to cheese the system and get clears sooner then they would have been able to otherwise. Indeed sooner then the devs intended. If you are playing the game as the devs intended then dps from healers is not required.

---

It's really not a sensible argument to make that healers shouldn't be asked to DPS because the developers didn't mean for the players to actually beat the content...

This is what your argument is supporting:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

Bluntly put, the dev intention is for overgeared and godlike DPS to carry dumb tanks and healers who can't handle more than 5 buttons. I think that is faulty from the start and any argument derived from it is equally faulty.

---

I would still claim that healer DPS is developers' intention - otherwise it wouldn't be in the game in this effect. The facts are, 1. healers are able to DPS in this content (their abilities and the battle system allows it), and 2. the healing requirements are set low enough that healers can significantly contribute to DPS from day one, and 3. some content is impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's released. All of these facts are based on the developer's design, hence it follows their intention. If they didn't intend it, they would have designed it some other way. At the latest when they noticed how important healer DPS was in the game's raiding scene already in ARR. And instead of changing it, they made it even more important in Heavensward.

For one, they will never have MND scale to doing damage without a stance. That is just too OP to be a healer and have a damage buff while not locked behind a stance.

There is a high skill ceiling in this game for healers who know how many GCDs they get away with without a real heal. That is what separates the good to the not-so-good end game healers. The higher end will end up clearing savage content sooner because they push the limits when its necessary, and when you are in under-geared progression. Like Creator Savage when we were in green i250 crafted gear vs i270. You weren't clearing A11S in the first weeks or month without substantial tank and healer DPS help, you'd be at the soft-enrage with the 2nd GA killing everyone and the towers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

You're missing a fairly big part of the picture I think? =(

---

I think you're misunderstanding - what he is saying is that IF you play the way the devs intended, THEN healer DPS is not required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

If you are playing the game as the devs intended then dps from healers is not required.

---

What that means is that IF you gear up for a couple months before going into Savage to get to the item level assumed during development AND your DPS manage to pull 85-90% of their theoretical potential in the live encounter, THEN healer DPS is not required, NOR do tanks need to do anything other than the aggro combo, because that is how the content has been tuned as per devs.

It all hinges on the IF condition. Your argument is that people go against that IF condition by not waiting months to get the item level required. In which case, yes, tank and healer damage is required. He acknowledges that:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

It's grey area only because players have learned to adapt to what they are given in ways the devs did not foresee. Rather than waiting for the dps to be appropriately geared to down the content people figured out they could use healer dps to beat it while being undergeared.

---

And my own critique of the argument is that the dev intentions are already stupid. According to dev intentions, tanks literally only use the aggro combo - no DoTs, no Storms Edge nor Path, no Maim, no Scourge, no Carve and Spit, no Spirits Within nor Circle of Scorn nor Goring Blade nor Royal Autority, NOTHING. Likewise, healers just poke their nose if they don't heal. And DPS are expected to do 85-90% of their dummy potential in a live fight - at an item level that probably takes month(s) to get.

Bluntly put, the dev intention is for overgeared and godlike DPS to carry dumb tanks and healers who can't handle more than 5 buttons. I think that is faulty from the start and any argument derived from it is equally faulty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

Does it bother you this much to know there are people out there who avoid something because they have a different choice in their playstyles from your own? FFXIV isn't a job for me. Its a hobby. I'm not aiming for some kind of promotion when I play this game.

---

Words.
Truth.
Savage.

OP:
I like this suggestion. It would ease the problem and i also happend to double tap cleric stance by accident and quick to use benediction if cd is super slow for blink of the moment. It does stress me out. Thank god bene isnt affected by cleric stance xd

Overgear (i270 this tier) applies to all jobs, not just healers. The extra DPS to push adds/phases, so you don't have to heal certain things plays into the argument. It's a raid effort to clear content while in-progression gear level. Like if you have good healer DPS, but you have two slacking red DPS that don't live up to high-end potential nothing will matter. You need 8 people who are more than just competent at their jobs to clear in the first weeks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sida

If a would be healer can't handle the cleric stance, they couldn't handle healing without it either in any even remotely complicated situation.

---

That's conjecture somewhat. After all, isn't the primary goal of the battle system changes to ease back on the complications/complexities of playing the jobs? I would say if healers don't have to worry about flipping the switch to do either what they're intended to do, and what's a higher capability of their role, then that complexity can return to actual instances and mechanics themselves. Simply put: remove the complexity from playing the job, and instead make playing the job efficiently for the content at hand the complex part.

This isn't me saying everything's got to be raid hard, but I continue to see people defend that there's currently so little need for healing or that healers have plenty of downtime to dps. Okay then, give us heal checks, healer specific mechanics, and reasons for a healer to be focused on performing their primary role primarily. Learning where and when they can dps and being able to balance attacking, supporting, movement/positioning, mechanical execution, and all with minimal downtime or mistakes is where the complexity should lie. Not how fast can you flip a switch, cast a few spells, then turn it off to actually perform your primary role again.

Honestly I am so tired of seeing all these post about Cleric Stance. No matter what happens there will always be a 50/50 split. Half will always defend having it removed and half will always defend keeping it. There's no winning. Every single player is unique. Tank, DPS and Healers. Why do you all care so much what the current "meta" is? Because healer dps is required in raiding? or because you might of been kicked from a dungeon or 2 because you just stood around and only healed? or did someone hurt your feelings and call you lazy for not contributing by dps? I mean come on. We play with people from all over the world. There will be different personalities out there. Some worst than others. Just deal with it. If you want to DPS as healer then do it. If you want to stand around and just heal then do that too. There is no right or wrong way. I main SCH and most days I only heal and I have never had an issue. Just play how you want Jesus Christ!

I personally like stance dancing. The only thing I find frustrating about CS is that it's easy to mix up which stance you're in when things get chaotic. But stances are, in general, something I love playing with. Rather than REMOVING Cleric Stance, I wonder if they could add some additional functionality to it, or give healers more than one stance to dance in and out of (AST doesn't entirely count since sect can't be changed in combat... which made me very sad when I found out).

Personally I am fine with Cleric Stance as is but would be fine if they made offensive skills based of Mind and keep cleric stance and make it a 30-40% reduction to healing potency so it's not as punishing if you double click it as it currently is.

better change for cleric stance: instead of having a 5 second cool down when you turn it on how about have the cool down be when you turn it off instead? :rolleyes: That would solve the issue of double tapping. Really the only change I would like to see.

I agree with ThirdChild and SweetPete. Though the latter kinda made me laugh. Know it wasn't meant to be funny, I'm sure, but it was, simply for how true it is.

It's honestly ridiculous how this dps meta, that only matters in extreme/savage content, has infected the rest of the game. You have tanks derping all over the place, pulling more than they can handle, in dungeons where it makes no sense (baby dungeons), not using their tank stance (when they do have access to it), because the forums tell them they suck if they use it, and they suck if they don't pull ALL THE THINGS!

Then the healers.... my god, so many of them are just terribad. Many can't even handle healing, let alone dpsing And healing. Forget the whole CS debate. Literally every time I decide to play a dps job, I am instantly made to regret it. SMN having to heal themselves with sad little physick spams, because the healer is.... well, not doing anything really.

On topic, however, I do wish they would do something with CS. It's a very clunky, unresponsive button, that becomes unresponsive at the absolute worst times. And while, yes, a certain amount of this is certainly player error, I don't see how anyone could argue that it doesn't need improving.

As to drawing more players to healing, there have been good suggestions. Different healer types for one thing. But the big thing keeping many players away is the responsibility of it. The fact that dps players, and tanks too (but to a lesser extent, I think) blame the healer automatically instead of taking some personal freaking responsibility for their own mistakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louvain

better change for cleric stance: instead of having a 5 second cool down when you turn it on how about have the cool down be when you turn it off instead? :rolleyes: That would solve the issue of double tapping. Really the only change I would like to see.

---

You know, the casting stances for BRD and MCH work similarly currently. Not sure of the CD, but I can and generally do drop Gauss Barrel near the end of a Wildfire burst to fit a few more shots in, then turn it right back on, THEN the cooldown activates. oGCD, very minimal impact if I fumble with it. . . They did it right with that, so what's the story with Cleric Stance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPete

Honestly I am so tired of seeing all these post about Cleric Stance. No matter what happens there will always be a 50/50 split. Half will always defend having it removed and half will always defend keeping it. There's no winning. Every single player is unique. Tank, DPS and Healers. Why do you all care so much what the current "meta" is? Because healer dps isrequired in raiding? or because you might of been kicked from a dungeon or 2 because you just stood around and only healed? or did someone hurt your feelings and call you lazy for not contributing by dps? I mean come on. We play with people from all over the world. There will be different personalities out there. Some worst than others. Just deal with it. If you want to DPS as healer then do it. If you want to stand around and just heal then do that too. There is no right or wrong way. I main SCH and most days I only heal and I have never had an issue. Just play how you want Jesus Christ!

---

You are leaving out:
"People that do not care what they do, just as long our effective DPS is not changed to be less then what it is currently. Having no cleric stance and having it scale off mind will do little to change how much you can dps for those to use it well. Take SCH for example, If I need to heal someone I can cast Emergency tactics >adloquium> lustrate> cleric stance when the cast ends (still on ocd though) and cast DPS when my OCD is ready. Because how this game works with casting, you can get around having no clipping and therefor, no impact to DPS to warrant our spells to be weaker if they scale it off mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You are leaving out:
"People that do not care what they do, just as long our effective DPS is not changed to be less then what it is currently. Having no cleric stance and having it scale off mind will do little to change how much you can dps for those to use it well. Take SCH for example, If I need to heal someone I can cast Emergency tactics >adloquium> lustrate> cleric stance when the cast ends (still on ocd though) and cast DPS when my OCD is ready. Because how this game works with casting, you can get around having no clipping and therefor, no impact to DPS to warrant our spells to be weaker if they scale it off mind.

---

"You are leaving out my agenda"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You are leaving out:

"People that do not care what they do, just as long our effective DPS is not changed to be less then what it is currently. Having no cleric stance and having it scale off mind will do little to change how much you can dps for those to use it well. Take SCH for example, If I need to heal someone I can cast Emergency tactics >adloquium> lustrate> cleric stance when the cast ends (still on ocd though) and cast DPS when my OCD is ready. Because how this game works with casting, you can get around having no clipping and therefor, no impact to DPS to warrant our spells to be weaker if they scale it off mind.

---

To be fair, I couldn't see Healers losing Cleric Stance without ending up doing equivalent damage to when they had it. The point of Cleric Stance is to give healers a way to do solo content such as Questing. They receive enough to complete that content, which is enough to contribute to DPS in group content as well. Square would have to make sure Healers can still effectively complete solo content. If MND became the stat to give Healers DPS as well as Healing, then it would still have to roughly give them exactly what they need. If SE gave Healers a new trait for +10% damage to offset the loss of Cleric Stance, nothing changes other than the removal of Cleric Stance. If SE keeps Cleric Stance and changes it to be group friendly, Healer DPS remains the same with it.

What is lost with Cleric Stance is:

1) What some players view as Risk and Challenge, providing Fun.
2) What some players view as a mark of Skill at playing a Healing Job.
3) What some players consider a clunky tool that, if it acts up at the wrong time, can lead to a wipe.
4) What some players consider a vexing tool that prevents them from ever truly trying to play as a Healer.

Truly there is no right choice here. The best Square can do would be to give us a new Healing Job that does not use Cleric Stance or have access to Cleric Stance, and instead has its damaging spells/abilities scale off of its main stat. However, this will still end up creating a divide amongst players of healers as existing healers would disparage it as an, 'EZ Mode Job,' and be upset with Square for not providing a, 'Real Healer Job.' Worse, if such a job were added and it was ever part of the meta due to something like AST Balance Cards, the levels of vitriol would be outstanding.

This thread just seems to be evidence that players cannot respect one another's preferences and playstyles.

I said it already but I will say it again:

Stance dancing is the one real mechanic in healing dps. Healer rotations are so facerolly they frankly aren't even worth calling rotations and no they cant really spice them up because alongside the healing skills the hotbars are already full to bursting.

Unless they are going to make healing far more engaging (which will require an overall nerf to healing potency and more healing mechanics introduced into fights) Cleric stance is a useful addition that actually creates some risk reward aspect to dpsing while healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

This thread just seems to be evidence that players cannot respect one another's preferences and playstyles.

---

That's exactly why I don't look down on the devs doing things by their own decision on many matters, rather than one decided by (or heavily influenced by) the players. My input is not going to be anymore valid for someone else than theirs would be for me. Matters of play style should be (mostly) on the devs own understanding of what is enjoyable. As you've stated, they probably would be doing the "right" thing by introducing an EZ Mode job, but it really wouldn't be as dramatic of a shift in players taking on other roles.

The majority simply do not like the responsibility. Think about how quickly people are to anger by simply being given advice among the party or being singled out. Think about how low the populous is that are willing to be leaders (as in people who actually lead, not just take the title and do nothing about it). They don't like to be the one people will blame for bad things happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atlaworks

"You are leaving out my agenda"

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiteblade89

I'm with AlphaFox up there. There shouldn't be incentive like a unique mount to be a mentor because true mentors need no incentive to be helpful. Personally I've run into only a handful of bad mentors since it's inception. The majority are silent, which is better to me than being an ass. The only mentor I ever reported was in PotD. The dude was unhappy becauseme and another sprout kept dying on floors 91-100. We apologized profusely but it's palace. Shit goes wrong there. Well on floor 99 the mentor decided to use up every pomander in our inventory and say "my parting gift for morons". He left us to wipe. I've never been angrier at another player before or since this happened. I really don't care what peoples motivation for mentoring is. If you wear the crown, I hold you to a higher standard than the rest of player base. And if you're not willing to help, at least keep your mouth shut. A silent mentor is better than a dick head.

---

Ill just leave that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

To be fair, I couldn't see Healers losing Cleric Stance without ending up doing equivalent damage to when they had it. The point of Cleric Stance is to give healers a way to do solo content such as Questing. They receive enough to complete that content, which is enough to contribute to DPS in group content as well. Square would have to make sure Healers can still effectively complete solo content. If MND became the stat to give Healers DPS as well as Healing, then it would still have to roughly give them exactly what they need. If SE gave Healers a new trait for +10% damage to offset the loss of Cleric Stance, nothing changes other than the removal of Cleric Stance. If SE keeps Cleric Stance and changes it to be group friendly, Healer DPS remains the same with it.

What is lost with Cleric Stance is:

1) What some players view as Risk and Challenge, providing Fun.
2) What some players view as a mark of Skill at playing a Healing Job.
3) What some players consider a clunky tool that, if it acts up at the wrong time, can lead to a wipe.
4) What some players consider a vexing tool that prevents them from ever truly trying to play as a Healer.

Truly there is no right choice here. The best Square can do would be to give us a new Healing Job that does not use Cleric Stance or have access to Cleric Stance, and instead has its damaging spells/abilities scale off of its main stat. However, this will still end up creating a divide amongst players of healers as existing healers would disparage it as an, 'EZ Mode Job,' and be upset with Square for not providing a, 'Real Healer Job.' Worse, if such a job were added and it was ever part of the meta due to something like AST Balance Cards, the levels of vitriol would be outstanding.

This thread just seems to be evidence that players cannot respect one another's preferences and playstyles.

---

Referring to this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterLucie

I've always thought Cleric Stance was a terrible design. It's awkward and half the time doesn't even turn off properly when you hit it. Remove Cleric and balance healer damage to be slightly lower than what it would've been in Cleric to even out the marginally higher DPS uptime from no longer having to stance dance.

---

and posts like it. People think we need our DPS lowered too offset not having to stance dance. YOU HAVE NO DOWNTIME, if you do it right, because how the game works. You can say cast a heal, then Lustrate, while you are still waiting for the cast. Finally once the cast ends, you are still on cd (for about .5 sec) you use cleric here and you can still be waiting for the gcd to finish to cast a spell. You have no downtime stance dancing if you do it right and quick, and this is most true with WHM who you can easily do it during gcd from regen. (or swiftcast cure II > terga ) for a large heal and enter cleric while in gcd. There is lots of ways and lots of tools to use cleric without clipping.

Also I like to know why there is bigger movements for if cleric should be removed over tank stance dancing. In my experience, improper tank stance dancing is more of a problem then cleric is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Also I like to know why there is bigger movements for if cleric should be removed over tank stance dancing. In my experience, improper tank stance dancing is more of a problem then cleric is.

---

Probably because Cleric Stance is far more of a liability compared to a tank stance dancing. If the tank screws up because of bad tank stance dancing, there's a lot more potential time to recover. If a healer screws up because they got stuck in Cleric Stance, then the odds of recovery are vastly reduced. I've always had far more issues with getting stuck in Cleric Stance than I ever had with stance dancing as a tank, but probably because I spend more time running content that isn't savage, and like the majority of the playerbase, I honestly couldn't care less about that content even though I know circumstances there compared to other content can be very different.

The other reason is that tank stance dancing isn't as much of a requirement compared to healer stance dancing unless your DPS suck out loud. Even if a tank is great at it, unless it's a WAR or maybe a really good DRK, it's nowhere near as much as how much damage a typical healer can put out if they're stance dancing just as effectively.

On the topic of Cleric Stance, if not removed, one possible change would be to have it behave more like the existing tank stances, meaning a less severe shift in how healing and damage spells are affected. Cleric Stance would still be ideal for maximizing damage, but having it active wouldn't completely hinder your ability to heal, nor would dealing damage without Cleric Stance feel like a waste of mana. Stance dancing would still be a thing, but less punishing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

Truly there is no right choice here. The best Square can do would be to give us a new Healing Job that does not use Cleric Stance

---

Hit the nail on the head with this point imo. Simply hacking cleric out of the existing jobs is going to annoy one side of the community whilst helping the other, you're taking one person's problem and putting it in someone else's lap instead. SE absolutely missed a trick with AST, having a healer that could indirectly generate DPS by spending it's GCDs getting cards rather than doing the DPS itself would have been a fantastic option for those that try to be more faithful to the support role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Hit the nail on the head with this point imo. Simply hacking cleric out of the existing jobs is going to annoy one side of the community whilst helping the other, you're taking one person's problem and putting it in someone else's lap instead. SE absolutely missed a trick with AST, having a healer that could indirectly generate DPS by spending it's GCDs getting cards rather than doing the DPS itself would have been a fantastic option for those that try to be more faithful to the support role.

---

Agree with this 100%, and that's precisely what I was hoping the AST job would be in my pre-HW hype. I'd much rather spend globals manipulating my cards to support the group than spend them plastering lame blue balloon graphics and a little galaxy on my enemies. The distinction is absolutely in things like immersion/character identity. I don't personally identify with the whole "battle cleric" image from D&D, I like healing and support. Right now there's no job in FFXIV that satisfies that for me. On the other hand, I've lurked around here and Reddit enough to know that there ARE people who like that gameplay, and at this juncture it's just as damaging to take that away from them.

If I had to choose, I'd say I'd definitely rather see the DPS side of things go rather than be emphasized even more. But the devs are missing some prime opportunities IMO to really differentiate their healers on how they contribute to group success.

Not to wiggle the argument but you have to realize every job is a DPS, just with a different background color in their icon.


This is a DPS oriented MMO, that preface hasn't changed one bit and why tanking and healing in this game is by-far better than other MMO products out there. There is a higher skill ceiling for players who don't always sit in tank stances and take advantage of cleric stance. This dynamic of the game does create a greater skill gap however, but it's perpetuated by the raid design between casual and savage levels, and lessening the DPS-checks as we got further in Heavensward. You don't have to go far to see two ends of the player spectrum. There are numerous threads here pointing this out.

Although there are some outliers like the Zurvan Skip Soar meme that rehashed this "everyone DPS" subject, it's good for the game. You have to realize there is a base that likes the way it is today, and wants to see it more refined. But on the same token also make the healing challenges harder like they were in the A1S first weeks, or the days where you knew that White Mage earned their real healer stripes because they cleared Final Coil.