Yoshida, The Creator: Savage is the worst tuning ever in an MMO

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Why you don't understand if gordias difficult was 10 , midas is 8 , creator is 2 , why u don't see this?

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2 for you? for others gordias was 15, midas was 10 and this may be 8 for them. why dont you see this?

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

2 for you? for others gordias was 15, midas was 10 and this may be 8 for them. why dont you see this?

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"It was easy for me, ergo, it should be easy for everyone else to clear."

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

2 for you? for others gordias was 15, midas was 10 and this may be 8 for them. why dont you see this?

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Ok how difficult is a content for 1 man is about a point of view but what we cannot discuss is how easier is Creator compared to Midas , no you can't say it's just a bit easier , if you say this that means your difficult meter is completly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Why you don't understand if gordias difficult was 10 , midas is 8 , creator is 2 , why u don't see this?

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That does nothing to change or hurt my point. But let's play your game.

Let's say Creator is equal to midas, an 8 on your scale. You have your challenge and it takes a few weeks for the world firsters to win.

Meanwhile, the midcore community proceeds to be walled by A11S just like A3 and A6 did. A11 gets nerfed but it's not enough. Creator is deemed a failure, the raiding community has been thoroughly annihilated to where only the hardcore remain, and as usual, they unsub til the new expac, except they don't come back because they hated the tome grind.

Was it worth it to kill the game to satisfy the 1%? Csuse that is what you are asking

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

The patch has literally only been out for a week. Some of us have jobs and families and don't put in 16 hour days.

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Problem is I only 3 hours per night, except Tuesday where we went a bit longer due to excitment for the patch. Tuesday night we downed A9S and A10S. Wednesday we farmed Sophia for weapons all night. Thursday and Friday was 3 hours each of prog on A11S. Kill A11S Friday night at the end of raid. Did A12S 3 hours Saturday and Sunday. Got to final phase. Due to scheduling we can't get back in there until later in the week but the issue is that with little to no time in alex we are already almost done. MMOs content is supposed to be built to last until the next content patch and this simply doesn't cut it. My group is by no means hardcore. We usually raid a bit more the first week of the patch and then raid 3 or 4 nights during the week until prog is done. This lasted 7 or 8 weeks last tier. This time we would have finished it tonight if we could have raided. As it stands we literally kill the boss next time we walk in. That is just pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

At what cost though?
Do you not understand the severity of the damage that Alexander has done to the game? What Gordias didn't obliterate, Midas finished off. Do you have any idea how many statics died during Alexander? Do you understand how FEW people haven't cleared Gordias and Midas? Hell I personally had every intention of clearing Midas and putting the Midan spear on my retainer, but my static never got past Vortex.

Why there are people on this board RIGHT NOW who think A12 NORMAL is too hard. How many more of them have to unsub before you get the point? Creator HAS to be this way. It's a necessary evil in order to justify the cost of making raids at all. The game can't survive on only pleasing the hardcore.

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Sure I agree that Gordias was tuned to tightly. I found it enjoyable but understand why most people didn't. Midas however was tuned very well. It wasn't much harder than SCoB. People on this board right now who think a12s is too hard would never be stepping into savage anyways. They don't even apply to this conversation. You are right the game can't exist only catering to hardcore. That is why there is a normal mode to the raid. The savage raid tier is literally the only content that gets created for us. People who enjoy the difficulty of normal raids get twice as many raid tiers as I do. The 24 man raids are a joke and I hate them. If I had my way I would have a savage version of the 24 mans, but I know that won't realistically happen, so I'm not even going to bother asking. Dungeons are face roll easy, you can literally stand in every mechanic and not die if your healer is awake. Palace of the dead...hah that place is easily soloable, god forbid if you are in a normal group that is tank heals and dps, complete joke. But ya know what, if having all this other content that the rest of the community likes is what it takes for me to get my little sliver of content, then I am fine with that. What savage raids were isn't the problem, the problem is that there is also a "midcore" crowd that needs content as well. I agree with that 100%. The solution isn't to take away our content just so they can have content. You misunderstand. Me and most of the others that want savage to be hard realize that there is a crowd of people who need content. To be honest that is exactly what normal should have been in the first place. The 24 man content was already the faceroll content and tbh doesn't really fit into the cycle anymore if they continue to give 8 mans a faceroll mode. If normal had been the difficulty of A9S and A10S is currently from the start we would never have had the issues we are having now. But now that normals are faceroll the community will be up in arms if you take it away, so it is now on the developers to fix it. And simply put if they tune the next tier this poorly you will see a large chunk of the community leave. And considering how little money it is to scale the difficulty from normal to add a savage mode, that will negatively affect funding for other areas of the game.

My FC has 3 groups atm. And our 3rd group didn't even make it A8S until about 3 months into the tier. They never cleared it. To put into perspective how poorly this tier is tuned, they made it to A11S in 2 raid nights. Now I'm not saying anything bad about this group. They have less time and are a much more laid back and casual group. But even talking to them, they are already not satisfied with the tier. I promise you that there is a solid 5-10% of the community that is very upset about this right now at least. It is bigger than most people seem to think. I honestly would have been fine with a bit easier than Midas, but this is just way too far. And the funny thing is you will still only probably have like a 5% clear rate for a12s, simply b/c as the OP said the tuning is shit, not the fight design. So people will get to the last boss and hit a wall b/c they can't play the game and react properly. They won't get much higher clear rates and the same people will by crying that savage is too hard and that they pay 15 dollars a month so they deserve to be spoon fed the ability to do all the content in the game.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

*well thought out reply*

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It doesn't seem like it, but to an extent, I agree with you. My overall message is that there needs to be a place for hardcore content, but now is not the time. We HAD hardcore content and it killed the game.

The true problem is actually in the normal/savage setup, and how SE is convinced it's the right path when its not. That's for another thread though.

Also I can't say enough that the only 24man that is a joke was Void Ark. Wiping City of Mechanics is still a complete crapshoot any time I queue for it. People are STILL getting mollywhopped by Forgall and Ozma. I personally quit doing it because I can't rely on DF to be competent enough to clear the damn thing

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Originally Posted by Fyce

tl;dr: tuning raid content around player's skill instead of player's equipment is what fits better to FFXIV.

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Adequate gear checks are necessary because player skill doesn't consist only of handling fight mechanics, you also have to handle class mechanics, your rotation. Extremely low gear tuning essentially gets rid of half the meta-game and makes gear progression obsolete for anyone who is able to clear a fight straight off.

I could even argue that the real difficulty in FFXIV comes from class mechanics, not fight design. Fight mechanics typically happen 5-20 sec apart from each other, sometimes in small clusters, when in comparison class mechanics happen 1-3 times in 2.5sec (GCD) for as long as the encounter lasts. When the game difficulty is so heavily tilted towards class mechanics, getting rid of gear checks is very stupid, because they're a way of challenging a large part of necessary player skill.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

I promise you that there is a solid 5-10% of the community that is very upset about this right now at least. It is bigger than most people seem to think.

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You realize you are talking about 5-10% of 1%. So with estimated 6k A8 clears at the time (I know the number is higher now but probably not by much), this would be 300-600 people.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

getting rid of gear checks is very stupid, because they're a way of challenging a large part of necessary player skill.

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No they're not. That's what we call artificial difficulty, aka Gordias Savage. The fight is hard not because you lack the skill to do the dance, but because the stats of your gear make it a mathematical impossibility. A truly skill based encounter means that so long as you have the minimum gear level to enter the instance, you should able to clear the duty once you figure out the dance. This of course requires that the fight be tested by players using gear at that minimum level, who also have the highest level of skill possible. I'd assume the devs have this when making the content.

Quite frankly, the best way to gear gate someone would be to lock them out of the instance until they meet the gear level. I'm pretty sure the game does this, but the minimum gear levels are absurdly low for some strange reason.

Perhaps the minimum for A11 AND a12s should have been 260? At least then you'd need a full set of tome gear and one raid piece

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

No they're not. That's what we call artificial difficulty, aka Gordias Savage. The fight is hard not because you lack the skill to do the dance, but because the stats of your gear make it a mathematical impossibility. A truly skill based encounter means that so long as you have the minimum gear level to enter the instance, you should able to clear the duty once you figure out the dance. This of course requires that the fight be tested by players using gear at that minimum level, who also have the highest level of skill possible.

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Just cleared Soph Ex in a pug group on PF starting on progression with people mostly IL 235 (I'm IL 235 myself). Glad that the SE devs gave people like me the chance to clear new content by focusing more on mechanics than just pure gear checks. Also, a lot of these "world first" and hardcore raiding groups had the benefit of being fully decked out with crafted IL250 gear before doing anything, so I feel they can't complain about a challenge (that's a huge 15+ gear boost they got right off the bat).

This raid is by far the most enjoyable of all Alexanders.

It's more welcoming it reminds me of first coil

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

You realize you are talking about 5-10% of 1%. So with estimated 6k A8 clears at the time (I know the number is higher now but probably not by much), this would be 300-600 people.

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No 5-10% of the community as a whole. You are going to lose more than just the ~2% that was able to clear a8s or close. You are going to lose other raiders who don't find this tier rewarding either if they continue this difficulty b/c they went way too far. If you lose them you lose the communities that they have built as well as a decent chunck of their friends. We have 2 different raid difficulties and a tier that is even easier than FCoB was. We help generate hype for the game, we influence the economy more than anybody else. Losing us also means losing a lot of crafters because they either aren't selling nearly as much stuff on the market board, or aren't a part of an FC and feeling like they are contributing meaningfully to a community anymore. Our raiding FC has a lot of members who are here because they don't have the time to raid but want to be able to jump in with other players who know their jobs to do Ex Primals or speed run dungeons. We are also subbed year round, as are our entire communities, where a lot of people resub to try out the new dungeons and primals and then turn around and unsub for another 3 to 6 months. If you are truly worried about catering to the majority of people than lets just make leveling dungeons only seeing as how at any given time only 35-50% of the currently subscribed NA market has at least one max level character and up to date with the MSQ months after it is released. You would not only lose a substantial part of the player base who is subbed year round. It isn't and simple as losing the 1-2% that can clear the raid tier as you make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

Losing us also means losing a lot of crafters because they either aren't selling nearly as much stuff on the market board

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Except the most expensive items are always glamour items. The mat from Bis EX sells for upwards of 4 million gil on my server. How many raiders are gonna take Bismark weapons into a fight? The real loss would be that half of you are cats and lizards and buy all the silly skimpy clothes I'd make.

Of course, being cats and lizards, for every one of you that quits, 7 others appear in you place. Like damn hydras, the lot of you.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

No 5-10% of the community as a whole. You are going to lose more than just the ~2% that was able to clear a8s or close. You are going to lose other raiders who don't find this tier rewarding either if they continue this difficulty b/c they went way too far. If you lose them you lose the communities that they have built as well as a decent chunck of their friends. We have 2 different raid difficulties and a tier that is even easier than FCoB was.

We help generate hype for the game, we influence the economy more than anybody else. Losing us also means losing a lot of crafters because they either aren't selling nearly as much stuff on the market board, or aren't a part of an FC and feeling like they are contributing meaningfully to a community anymore. Our raiding FC has a lot of members who are here because they don't have the time to raid but want to be able to jump in with other players who know their jobs to do Ex Primals or speed run dungeons. We are also subbed year round, as are our entire communities, where a lot of people resub to try out the new dungeons and primals and then turn around and unsub for another 3 to 6 months. If you are truly worried about catering to the majority of people than lets just make leveling dungeons only seeing as how at any given time only 35-50% of the currently subscribed NA market has at least one max level character and up to date with the MSQ months after it is released. You would not only lose a substantial part of the player base who is subbed year round. It isn't and simple as losing the 1-2% that can clear the raid tier as you make it out to be.

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I don't disagree with anything you say about what it means to lose the raiding community, however much of that was lost with Gordias and will most likely never recover. What remains is the 1% that was able to beat A8S. Many groups could only pass A5 and A6 and that was all they had for 6 months which drove even more people away. What remains is that 1% and lower difficulty gives many lost teams hopes to rebuild again.

I am not advocating one is right or one is wrong, as I said earlier we really need to see clear data and feedback a bit further out, perhaps in two months. If someone's blind arthritic grandmother is beating A12S one handed, then yes we have problems.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

No they're not.

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Sorry but you are kind of wrong here. Gearing is a necessary part of the game. And gating people out of a11s and a12s would have pissed the community off to no end. I agree with it in raid finder, but a preformed group of 8 should and can go in at any ilvl they want. If they really wanted to they could walk into a12s with i180, the game won't stop them although they'll be one shotted. Now, a11s and a12s should be tuned for i260 gear, that I agree with. But right now it feels like it is tuned for maybe i245 for a11s and i250 for a12s. Hell a9s feels like it is tuned for i230 or something. DPS checks should exist. Playing your job correctly is a huge part of the end game. They just shouldn't be as tight as Gordias was, but if you don't have dps checks then why even try and min max. Midas had dps checks, they just weren't extremely tight unless you were progressing in there day 1. Gear is there to make things easier over time so that it slowly compensates for lack of player skill in worse groups. Damage going out to the raid and use of raid CDs is a heal check, boss positioning and proper CD usage to survive mechanics are tank checks. If you don't give dps a then you are giving a free pass to any jane doe who can dance. Just handling mechanics becomes trivial if you aren't also worried about topping the raid off during it and getting heals in where you can to survive the next big hit or trying to maximize your dps during a phase.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

Sorry but you are kind of wrong here.

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Actually I'm right and you literally just proved it.

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Gearing is a necessary part of the game. And gating people out of a11s and a12s would have pissed the community off to no end.

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I think these boards are enough proof that the community will never be happy with any choice that's made. Gear lockouts are a pretty common practice, what makes you deserve to be a special snowflake?

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Now, a11s and a12s should be tuned for i260 gear, that I agree with. But right now it feels like it is tuned for maybe i245 for a11s and i250 for a12s. Hell a9s feels like it is tuned for i230 or something. DPS checks should exist. Playing your job correctly is a huge part of the end game. They just shouldn't be as tight as Gordias was, but if you don't have dps checks then why even try and min max. Midas had dps checks, they just weren't extremely tight unless you were progressing in there day 1. Gear is there to make things easier over time so that it slowly compensates for lack of player skill in worse groups. Damage going out to the raid and use of raid CDs is a heal check, boss positioning and proper CD usage to survive mechanics are tank checks. If you don't give dps a then you are giving a free pass to any jane doe who can dance. Just handling mechanics becomes trivial if you aren't also worried about topping the raid off during it and getting heals in where you can to survive the next big hit or trying to maximize your dps during a phase.

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DPS checks and gear checks are similar, but different things. A DPS check would ideally be based on the expected performance of players at min level. If they have enough skill, then they can push out the DPS at the minimum gear level to pass the check and win the game. If they don't have the skill, then they can compensate by applying gear until they basically brute force their way to victory. This is what real difficulty is. This is what you should want if you are truly seeking challenge because it is a true test of your skill. I personally think it's far more rewarding to be able to say I was skilled enough to beat content on the lowest gear setting, then if I had to go in with full tome or raid gear. At that point, the gear becomes a crutch and I remain a scrub.

What this ultimately means is that in a skill based setting, nothing could have changed and Creator would have still died the way it did because the truly skilled players should have demonstrated their skill by clearing the DPS checks and solving the mechanics. To ask for a higher gear requirement means to either gate people out of the content until they meet the gear level, or to make the content mathematically impossible to clear at the current gear levels, which is artificial difficulty and what made Gordias terrible.
I think we're ultimately in agreement, but we have different ideals about how to get to the end path

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

I don't disagree with anything you say about what it means to lose the raiding community, however much of that was lost with Gordias and will most likely never recover. What remains is the 1% that was able to beat A8S. Many groups could only pass A5 and A6 and that was all they had for 6 months which drove even more people away. What remains is that 1% and lower difficulty gives many lost teams hopes to rebuild again.

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That is a problem of not having more bosses so that they can smooth the difficulty curve. 6 to 8 bosses per tier really needs to happen. I personally think 2 primals that drop savage raid level right side gear on a weekly lockout (weapons could be shifted to normal and made the same ilvl as previous tiers raid weapon) paired up with 6 raid bosses starting at a10s difficulty and progressing to a8s is the way to go, but that is my personal opinion. That gives you 8 bosses in a content patch that are meaningful to do each week. 2 are primals outside the actual raid. 6 are part of the raid tier with a smoother difficulty curve so you don't feel like you are hitting a wall with a massive difficulty spike.Would honestly be a decent middle ground where people didn't feel quite as bad if they didn't finish the whole tier when it was current.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

That is a problem of not having more bosses so that they can smooth the difficulty curve.

6 to 8 bosses per tier really needs to happen. I personally think 2 primals that drop savage raid level right side gear on a weekly lockout (weapons could be shifted to normal and made the same ilvl as previous tiers raid weapon) paired up with 6 raid bosses starting at a10s difficulty and progressing to a8s is the way to go, but that is my personal opinion. That gives you 8 bosses in a content patch that are meaningful to do each week. 2 are primals outside the actual raid. 6 are part of the raid tier with a smoother difficulty curve so you don't feel like you are hitting a wall with a massive difficulty spike.Would honestly be a decent middle ground where people didn't feel quite as bad if they didn't finish the whole tier when it was current.

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I also agree with everything you just said. Like 100%. I don't believe it is not feasible with their team to add 2 more bosses and just strip away phases from the other ones if they need more manpower.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

If they have enough skill, then they can push out the DPS at the minimum gear level to pass the check and win the game. If they don't have the skill, then they can compensate by applying gear until they basically brute force their way to victory. This is what real difficulty is. This is what you should want if you are truly seeking challenge because it is a true test of your skill. I personally think it's far more rewarding to be able to say I was skilled enough to beat content on the lowest gear setting, then if I had to go in with full tome or raid gear. At that point, the gear becomes a crutch and I remain a scrub.

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That... actually sounds like a terrible difficulty system. The flaw is that the challenge is completely temporary. It's wholly possible to clear content and get the best gear without learning a damn thing, and your high-level gear will make up for everything by the time a player has access to it.

Just my 2cents.

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Originally Posted by Windi

That... actually sounds like a terrible difficulty system. The flaw is that the challenge is completely temporary.

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Any challenge is only temporary...gear check ? You'll eventually outgear the content unless you're forced to sync really low.
Mechanics check ? Once you learn the dance, most of the difficulty is gone.

An option would be to add additional rewards for using the minimum ilvl sync, so that some people will have the choice of preventing outgearing. It could increase all rewards that "undersized party" removes.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

I also agree with everything you just said. Like 100%. I don't believe it is not feasible with their team to add 2 more bosses and just strip away phases from the other ones if they need more manpower.

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The problem is that new fights and taking away phases do not equate. Every new fight needs to be concepted, assets need to be made, and the fight needs to be programmed (hell, they even need to add more quest chains to get into the fights), then increase the workload by taking into account both normal and savage. While more bosses would be nice, it is not as easy as you imply (although Yoshi has said that they only need 2 more members on the battle team in order to "vastly" improve raids, whatever that means).

I see a lot of people talk about 3 tiers and how its needed and yoshi basically saying they don't have the man power etc.
Eh why not just make a hardcore version of the the final boss for raid tiers. You unlock it after clearing savage. It's 1 fight, they can manage it, maybe? Call it extreme, hardcore, ultra whatever. Have no loot drops for it, only a title and like a mount or something. The hardcore can throw themselves at it for weeks and have stuff to brag about when they clear it. Everyone happy? The end.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The problem is that new fights and taking away phases do not equate. Every new fight needs to be concepted, assets need to be made, and the fight needs to be programmed (hell, they even need to add more quest chains to get into the fights), then increase the workload by taking into account both normal and savage. While more bosses would be nice, it is not as easy as you imply (although Yoshi has said that they only need 2 more members on the battle team in order to "vastly" improve raids, whatever that means).

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I know there is more to it as I don't work in the industry but thinking outside the box I feel it would be easy to conceptualize a battle without having any video game knowhow. Hire artists and critical puzzle thinkers to create a concept and then have the design team go from there. I feel the company has a standard they want to live up too and sometimes it might hold them back.

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Originally Posted by Windi

That... actually sounds like a terrible difficulty system. The flaw is that the challenge is completely temporary. It's wholly possible to clear content and get the best gear without learning a damn thing, and your high-level gear will make up for everything by the time a player has access to it.

Just my 2cents.

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How is that any different from now? Did anyone learn anything because Brute Justice made them slot VIT materia? Or the Nisi sac strat?

Or were these cheesy methods to cover artificial gates, and pass things that they mathematically should have lost to.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

I feel it would be easy to conceptualize a battle without having any video game knowhow. Hire artists and critical puzzle thinkers to create a concept and then have the design team go from there. I feel the company has a standard they want to live up too and sometimes it might hold them back.

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Oh yeah, conceptualizing a battle is easy, yoshi P has shared many times his wacky ideas (as have many forum goers including myself). The problem is when you say "just have the design team go from there". A) We don't actually know what makes up the "design team" and what roles and responsibilites these teams have to a full extent B) If we did know the full extent of what they did, design team has other responsibilities, and we don't how busy they are. C) "Just going from there" means nothing. The amount of work it takes to take an idea from conception to even a working prototype takes a tonne of thought and consideration (originality, difficulty, pacing, job viability etc.) and that isn't even taking into account technical feasibility, art assets and even lore. Game development is an intensive task that goes through many iterations before we get a final outcome (as an example of timescale, yoshi P said that a single piece of glamour takes 6 months to create from concept to implementation, and as for battle content - we saw concept art (and even a concept render) of shiva and world of darkness before the release of 2.0)

Edit: *and bug fixing

In addition to what Lambdafish said, there's this thing called "bug testing" that has to be done for every change that's made. Just having a boss deal more damage could cause a ripple effect in the code that leads right up to a game crash. Judging by how many hotfixes have to happen when a patch rolls out, this team needs all the debugging time they can get.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

How is that any different from now? Did anyone learn anything because Brute Justice made them slot VIT materia? Or the Nisi sac strat?

Or were these cheesy methods to cover artificial gates, and pass things that they mathematically should have lost to.

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The water debuff in A8s was cheesed too by most if I'm not wrong

I keep reading topics about the creator and "how it is easy" since the release of 3.4, but I'm wondering something.

How many people who are giving their opinion have already made every savage of this content?
I doubt everyone already did it.

I'll only begin Savage Thursday,so I won't say a thing about it until I beat every floor, even if i'm surprised of how fast some group already made them all.
But i'm curious knowing what these people think and from them, what made them beat the content so fast.

We won't be able to 'objectively' debate about it 'til 90% of the people who are talking about the raid made it.

I won't be suprised to see some who are yelling about how easy it is based on the progression of hardcore raider being stuck themselves.
Wait and see.

Hardcore raiding is too small of a population to cater to. If they're allotting resources to something, they want more than 1% of the population to experience it.

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Originally Posted by Windi

That... actually sounds like a terrible difficulty system. The flaw is that the challenge is completely temporary. It's wholly possible to clear content and get the best gear without learning a damn thing, and your high-level gear will make up for everything by the time a player has access to it.

Just my 2cents.

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Umm no, thats not quite how it works. A lot of the people commenting here haven't got a damn clue what they are talking about and they mostly haven't even gotten that far in Savage. Unless you come back when the raid is obsolete with a crazy ilevel advantage (e.g. 40+) then maybe ur statement is valid. A3S, A4S and A8S were still extremely challenging (to the point of borderline impossible for midcore/casual groups) even with BiS gear of the time.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Hardcore raiding is too small of a population to cater to. If they're allotting resources to something, they want more than 1% of the population to experience it.

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While I'm all for a larger raiding community and more accessible endgame content. It actually isn't that difficult to cater to the hardcore crowd. IIRC someone several posts earlier mentioned that the WoW devs basically designed their raids for LFR and did simple mods and scaling to make it more hardcore. All up it was something like 5% more resources for 5% of the audience. Not a bad deal compared to designing a full fresh tier of casual 24 mans for the masses.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The problem is that new fights and taking away phases do not equate. Every new fight needs to be concepted, assets need to be made, and the fight needs to be programmed (hell, they even need to add more quest chains to get into the fights), then increase the workload by taking into account both normal and savage. While more bosses would be nice, it is not as easy as you imply (although Yoshi has said that they only need 2 more members on the battle team in order to "vastly" improve raids, whatever that means).

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Unfortunately, I think this is the ultimate issue of mechanics heavy Savage raids. Gordias never had this issue because the mechanics were simple but derived its difficulty from tough numbers. The community responded badly and thus we have the new format, programming has limits so sometimes it is better to have a phase as skippable to prevent bugs and other unintended effects (e.g. T7S).

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Unfortunately, I think this is the ultimate issue of mechanics heavy Savage raids. Gordias never had this issue because the mechanics were simple but derived its difficulty from tough numbers. The community responded badly and thus we have the new format, programming has limits so sometimes it is better to have a phase as skippable to prevent bugs and other unintended effects (e.g. T7S).

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Yes and no, I think you are right, but I also think that that is a cop out. There are ways that even I can think of that would make for interesting fight design that takes phase skipping into consideration (A6S is a good example of a fight where you can't push phases easily, especially between bosses, and brawler especially so). The devs need to keep an open mind to the design and account for unpredictablity and design the fights that work regardless.

This thing of : hardcore population to cater is 1% looks like the Robot premade answer on any argument . i've seen this as answer on any Reply lol

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

If you think savage is too easy you just need to accept that you are in a very small, very vocal minority and SE simply cannot cater to your needs because they do not have the resources to do so. Sure, everyone would like more content of the difficulty level they prefer, but you have to temper that desire with the reality the SE has to sell this product relative to the people who consume said product.

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Basically i have to have less fun on the patch then the casuals because i do know a good rotation, i'm not slacking and possibly more-skilled ?
That's stupid raiding as and will always be an investissement, you have to know and play a job correctly (decently ain't enough in Savage tho') to clear it.

I appreciate the fact that if one people screw up a mechanic you ain't wiping, on this raiding tier you've to adapt. But i don't like to sacrifice my fun for people that wanna clear Savage but not invest themselves into it.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

They have the stats of the clear rates. They aren't going to spend their time making content only 2.5% of the playerbase will play, it's not cost-effective.

The end. /thread

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The profit of the chineese outfit would litterally cover the cost to tune a good savage fight :D

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I keep reading topics about the creator and "how it is easy" since the release of 3.4, but I'm wondering something.

How many people who are giving their opinion have already made every savage of this content?
I doubt everyone already did it.

I'll only begin Savage Thursday,so I won't say a thing about it until I beat every floor, even if i'm surprised of how fast some group already made them all.
But i'm curious knowing what these people think and from them, what made them beat the content so fast.

We won't be able to 'objectively' debate about it 'til 90% of the people who are talking about the raid made it.

I won't be suprised to see some who are yelling about how easy it is based on the progression of hardcore raider being stuck themselves.
Wait and see.

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It is more towards comparing it's difficulty with Midas/Gordias, which it is significantly easier. It isn't to say the content itself is very easy or not challenging, but compared to the previous two tiers, these turns are much easier. I am at AS11 right now and from AS9/AS10, they were very easy to learn and took minimal practice to get them down. The question is, is this the level of difficulty that SE should do for expansion onward.

This game badly needs proper PvP content to funnel the insatiable competitive angst of a certain small percentage of the game pop; they aren't going to complain when they have to compete against a evershifting standard of human rather than ai opposition. This will also have a side benefit of diverting their attention from trying to ruin the game for the rest of us #nomidastouch

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Originally Posted by Auteur

This game badly needs proper PvP content to funnel the insatiable competitive angst of a certain small percentage of the game pop; they aren't going to complain when they have to compete against a evershifting standard of human rather than ai opposition. This will also have a side benefit of diverting their attention from trying to ruin the game for the rest of us #nomidastouch

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Ouch people asking for a good PVP since years now, fro example the GC restriction is abusive and improve queue time for nothing, you won't see a good PVP mode since PVPERS are less than raiders (and if you follow people logic, you don't care about raiders cause they aren't enough, so what about PVPERS ? they're ghots).

Part of me hopes that skipping mechanics was actually part of the design and that it might make the fights shorter but harder with harder hitting attacks coming more frequently, but then I realise I'm being far too optimistic... We skipped the whole shield mechanic when we cleared A11S, which meant we avoided the boss getting a damage up buff, kind of silly that you can skip that especially when we're only using Sophia weapons.

I've enjoyed this raid anyway, the community needed something a bit easier, if this was perhaps too easy waits to be seen I guess.

I haven't been able to jump into Creator Savage yet (just returned from a 6-7 month break and not ilevel yet), but I do agree with your points about the tuning. I am happy that Creator was made easier, but at the same time, it seems like the later fights (11 and 12) are also a bit too toned down seeing the amount of statics that have already completed the entire raid within this first week.

I was really hoping to see the fights go back to Final Coil level of difficulty, where the first 2 fights are challenging but doable for decent teams at min entry level gear, and the last 2 fights require a bit of gear in order to meet the dps/hp checks. They were "easy" for the hardcore 1% groups who pushed the limits of gear and dps, but challenging enough for the majority midcore groups playing who would easily spend anywhere from 1-3 months to clear the entire raid with progression.

I didn't even bother trying Midas after clearing A3S because I was so burnt out from Gordias, but a little bit of a challenge is not a bad thing considering this is a "raid." As long as we can see fights tuned appropriately from day 1 so that phase-skipping/cheesing isn't something that can be done from the get-go, I think we'd be able to get to a sweet spot with raid difficulty again.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

How is that any different from now? Did anyone learn anything because Brute Justice made them slot VIT materia? Or the Nisi sac strat?

Or were these cheesy methods to cover artificial gates, and pass things that they mathematically should have lost to.

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Fair point. I don't even know how these developers can do much with this game's difficulty due to the upward progression system.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

So let things be potentially broken, ill structured, and fall under amateurish like design as long as it is fun? Okay.

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How is something being easyer broken? oo that right your hardcore..
your better then everyone so it broken.