war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What I feel is that it would have also been the same in 2.x if we already three tanks.
Even before the "shifting" in raid requirement, WAR would already have a secured spot while PLD and WAR would compete for the remaining spot.

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If you truly believe that then I think we have to presume that PLD is just bad. I don't necessarily think it is (personally I like 60 PLD), but if it is so bad that you would honestly consider running double WAR over a single Pally, there is something intimately wrong with Paladin, not with Warrior. I mean, if 0 people played SMN because its CDs were bad (and far more people play BLM than SMN raiding now) would you just say 'Well BLM is OP and SMN is crap so we need to nerf BLM'? It's apples to oranges, but the comparison holds. If Paladin really is that bad it needs a dramatic shift to become good. Warrior doesn't need to be dragged down to its level.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

No, you have said on multiple occasions that WAR has no trade offs. That is wrong.

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Having to chose what GCD you will use is not a "trade-off". WAR has higher burst DPS than PLD and DRK, equal or higher average DPS, higher burst healing, and utility that will always ensure a spot. It's accepted that PLD should have noticeable lower DPS than WAR "Because it's a PLD". Tell me one thing were WAR is noticeably lower than the other two "Because it's a WAR" ?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

And, you've spoken about the defensive synergy of WAR's offensive buffs like it's actually something that really matters. It's not. And, like I already explained, the only difference in the offensive synergy of WAR's defensive buffs is that you get 1 stack every 90/120s. That is hardly something to call foul over.

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It's not just "one stack every 90/120s", it's the ability to use an additionnal Fell Cleave during Berserk which, by your own claim, is a huge part of their DPS...While still allowing them to keep their DPS stance a little longer, like PLD and DRK can do.
It's also the ability to boost its healing really high, creating a better synergy between its own skill and a cross-class skill as early as 2.0. This just by having the only (IIRC) skill that increases Attack Power instead of damage.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

I don't necessarily think it is (personally I like 60 PLD), but if it is so bad that you would honestly consider running double WAR over a single Pally, there is something intimately wrong with Paladin, not with Warrior.

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You won't run double WAR for several reasons. But, let's suppose than stacking the same job would have no effect on the LB, and that you could apply two Storm's Eye at the same time. I'm pretty sure double WAR would have been a thing.

But again, PLD and DRK are not so bad, WAR is just better.
Which doesn't prevent me from playing PLD and DRK more than WAR because I like their playstyle more.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

snip.

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BB combo without maim: 150/200/280 = 210 ppGCD

BB combo with maim: 180/240/336 = 252 ppGCD. FC is available every 7-8 GCDs working out to 80 ppGCD. That adds up to 332 ppGCD.

How did you end up with 348.6? By including the Deliverance bonus?

PLD's ppGCD in SwO assuming an RA>RA>GB rotation with a 2.4 GCD is around 320 without including Swipe, SW, CoS or FoF from what I remember.

So, to be fair, I don't think that disproves the fact that maim merely balances their potencies. Eye is another issue.

Having to choose what GCD to use is not a tradeoff. Having to choose to DPS or MITIGATE is a tradeoff. You can't have IB and FC at the same time.

This is largely different if you compare to PLD and DRK because they don't have to choose DPS or mitigation because they can pop CDs and still DPS for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

snip.

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Maim:
(180 + 240 + 336 + 240) + 49.8 (Deliverance Bonus) = 1045.8. 1045.8/3 = 348.6.

You're missing the +5% from having deliverance on during the combo.

A spreadsheet with the breakdown of damage as well as damage loss is in this spreadsheet if you're interested. I might have some errors in there though, I haven't gone through and tidied it up.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You won't run double WAR for several reasons. But, let's suppose than stacking the same job would have no effect on the LB, and that you could apply two Storm's Eye at the same time. I'm pretty double WAR would have been a thing.

But again, PLD and DRK are not so bad, WAR is just better.
Which doesn't prevent me from playing PLD and DRK more than WAR because I like their playstyle more.

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So you are saying that the top FCs and raid groups aren't capitalizing on the double WAR comp? The LB generation is by far not even an issue. There are just what PLD/DRK can do and WAR can't do. Dungeons and 24-mans aside, PLD/DRK are pretty damn useful for the current raid content. 99% of the speed runs logs aren't even bringing double WARs (they do DRK/WAR comp for the most part), what makes you think double WARs is such a godly comp? Can you even substantiate your points, because they are oozing out 'opinions' and not actually tested and verified?


Speedruns: https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/10#metric=speed

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Having to choose what GCD to use is not a tradeoff. Having to choose to DPS or MITIGATE is a tradeoff. You can't have IB and FC at the same time.

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As a PLD, if I need to switch from ShO to SwO and switch back later on, I'll lose more DPS than a WAR having to do Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.
Let's also hope I don't have to use Clemency, "wasting" a GCD to not DPS and break my combo.

And WAR still have several CD to use without Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

what makes you think double WARs is such a godly comp?

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I didn't say "it's a godly comp". I'd say that if you could stack double Eye, I'm sure more parties would run double WAR.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As a PLD, if I need to switch from ShO to SwO and switch back later on, I'll lose more DPS than a WAR having to do Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.

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So can you do some math for me to prove that switching oaths costs you 500 - 300*.75 = 275 potency? Because I'm seeing a lot of opinions, but not a whole lot of evidence.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

=

I didn't say "it's a godly comp". I'd say that if you could stack double Eye, I'm sure more parties would run double WAR.

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So your point is actually just moot.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Having to chose what GCD you will use is not a "trade-off". WAR has higher burst DPS than PLD and DRK, equal or higher average DPS, higher burst healing, and utility that will always ensure a spot. It's accepted that PLD should have noticeable lower DPS than WAR "Because it's a PLD". Tell me one thing were WAR is noticeably lower than the other two "Because it's a WAR" ?

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My original line was "WAR is not a class about having your cake and eating it to." Do you know what that means? If you don't, then you shouldn't quote it and reply to it. WAR is a class where you cannot have maximized DPS and mitigation at the same time. You choose between the two. You trade mitigation for DPS and vice versa. That is not having your cake and eating it too.

You replied to that by literally saying that picking between two awesome things is not a trade-off. No, that is literally the definition of a trade off. If you want to post on an English forum, you should really try to understand the language first.

So that has nothing to do with PLD or DRK. But if you want to have that argument, then fine. I'll still humor you. PLD and DRK have better immunities than WAR. PLD has better physical mitigation and DRK has better magical mitigation. Judged independently, PLD and DRK both have higher raid mitigation than WAR does -- DRK having persistently higher raid mitigation with Delirium and Reprisal and PLD having higher one-time raid mitigation with DV. And, because of their equally valuable unique utility, just like WAR, they will be ensured a raid spot.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's not just "one stack every 90/120s", it's the ability to use an additionnal Fell Cleave during Berserk which, by your own claim, is a huge part of their DPS...While still allowing them to keep their DPS stance a little longer, like PLD and DRK can do.
It's also the ability to boost its healing really high, creating a better synergy between its own skill and a cross-class skill as early as 2.0. This just by having the only (IIRC) skill that increases Attack Power instead of damage.

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It doesn't boost your healing really high. It is a very marginal healing boost that ultimately makes very little difference in a real fight.

Losing a Berserked FC hurts but in terms of an entire fight, it will only amount to a small DPS drop from the WAR. So really, it's hardly that big a deal.

But this is exactly my point. These are in reality and practice very small things but you are blowing them up to be some game breaking issue or difference maker. It isn't. And, it's hardly why PLD and DRK are considered weaker tanks that don't work well together.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As a PLD, if I need to switch from ShO to SwO and switch back later on, I'll lose more DPS than a WAR having to do Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.

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Most of the time, you can easily pop a CD to offset the dmg and still able to DPS.

Exactly what contents are you doing? 8mans (exclude midas sav) and 24mans are so easy that you don't even need to use ShO to mitigate damage, that is if you have all the CDs planned. for A5S, there are many parts where you don't ever need ShO, the only one for ShO is when you get the concussion stacks (your dmg plunges down a lot, but even then I just tank it raw with more CDs). For A6S, it's all stacks based and positions based. A7S, take the shots like a man and do a tank swap now and then OR just endure the pain (discussion with your healers is a must). A8S is more or less finetuning strats and ballsdeeping.

Technically it's not a waste of DPS too if you need the extra mitigation to survive (whether just barely or safely).

Nevermind the reality that there are actually plenty of gaps in uptime to swap Oaths at no DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

So can you do some math for me to prove that switching oaths costs you 500 - 300*.75 = 275 potency? Because I'm seeing a lot of opinions, but not a whole lot of evidence.

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First, your calculation is a bit off. FC is 525 potency thanks to Deliverance. Inner Beast is 300 potency, since it ignores Defiance penalty. So you're losing 225 potency.

We've assumed that PLD ppGCD is around 320 for its optimal rotation while using SwO. Using a GCD to switch to ShO or SwO makes you lose those 320 potency each time. Even if you count that GB is ticking for 50 during this (But will probably fall off for one or two GCD), it means you lose more than your 225 potency each time you switch. And it's not even counting how many GCD you stay in ShO where you "lose" 15% of your damage +50pot/GCD.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Technically it's not a waste of DPS too if you need the extra mitigation to survive (whether just barely or safely).

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WARs are claiming that using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave is a "waste", not me

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Nevermind the reality that there are actually plenty of gaps in uptime to swap Oaths at no DPS loss.

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Shouldn't you advocate being in SwOath until right before the tankbuster to maximize DPS ?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

PLD has better physical mitigation and DRK has better magical mitigation.

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Yes, they have. But instead of very specific situations where PLD can top both of them thanks to HG, there is nothing that PLD and DRK can survive that WAR can't.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Judged independently, PLD and DRK both have higher raid mitigation than WAR does -- DRK having persistently higher raid mitigation with Delirium and Reprisal and PLD having higher one-time raid mitigation with DV. And, because of their equally valuable unique utility, just like WAR, they will be ensured a raid spot.

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Considering that Delirium only affects magical damage, and Reprisal needs to be proced by a parry, I'd say that DRK's raid mitigation is less reliable than WAR's. As for PLD, yes, DV is a very good skill but only for burst damage.

You don't get it. WAR needs to time Inner Beast. That by itself is already a loss. WAR only has 2 on demands (Raw Intuition normally used for that 3rd FC). PLD/DRK have the huge flexibility to pop CDs when they want/need to use. I don't even turn on Grit/ShO for most of the fights barring A8S and for the starting aggro.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

You don't get it. WAR needs to time Inner Beast. That by itself is already a loss. WAR only has 2 on demands (Raw Intuition normally used for that 3rd FC). PLD/DRK have the huge flexibility to pop CDs when they want/need to use. I don't even turn on Grit/ShO for most of the fights barring A8S and for the starting aggro.

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This is probably the best reason. ShO on demand, regardless of whether it's a DPS loss, provides guaranteed 20% mitigation to incoming damage, whereas a WAR switching to Defiance has no such gain on the spot. Even though it's a DPS loss to go into the Oath, you don't need to rely on your stacks landing within 6s of a tank buster, nor wasting 200 potency in the gamble. Shield Oath is convenient, holding stacks isn't. Especially if you do it for multiple combos.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

GB 150 + 230 + 540 = 920, 306.7 ppgcd

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150 + 230 + 640 = 1020, 340 ppGCD

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

Since it's 1 GB to 2 RA, (920 +2*700)/9 = 257.8 ppGCD.

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1020+2*700 = 2420
2420/9 = 268

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

But SA actually gives you 50 potency per auto. Assuming that it was 50 potency per auto, and an auto was 2.5s (which it's not), you have to subtract 9*50 potency.

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What ? We're counting the DPS loss from having to switch to ShO from SwO, like a WAR that needs to switch to Defiance and use Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave under Deliverance.

SwO gives you 50 potency (almost) per GCD so your averagge ppGCD is 268+50 = 318 ppGCD.

For the same combo in ShO, you'd have

GB = (1020*0.85)/3 289 ppGCD
RA = (700*0.85)/3 198 ppGCD
GB+RA+RA = (1020+700+700)*0.85/3 = 228 ppGCD

So, by being in ShO instead of SwO, you're losing 90 ppGCD. And that's not counting the 2 GCD where you'll actually deals 0 potency.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

snip

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Yeah I realized my mistake in what you were saying, which is why I deleted the post, I don't know why I got your meaning turned around there. That's my bad :p

I will point out that despite the DPS loss from switching oaths, there is also the loss of the cleave potency, any held stacks for the inner beast (since the inner beast duration is pretty short), and the 10s following the swap where you can't switch oaths, while a Paladin might be able to swap back faster. The fact that there are these extra requirements (5 stacks, losing none, 10s of guaranteed 25s less damage) means that the inner beast might wind up being either messier (barely up during the buster) or cost a lot of potency (wasted stacks that might've gone towards a FC).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

WARs are claiming that using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave is a "waste", not me

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Just to be clear, I never claimed it was a waste. I claimed that as a WAR, you feel really bad needing to use IB because of how big of a DPS hit it is. And, in relation to FC, that it is a trade off.

So, as you've detailed, you are indeed losing something when you FC. Yes, you gain something, too. But that is literally the definition of a trade-off.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Shouldn't you advocate being in SwOath until right before the tankbuster to maximize DPS ?

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Obviously. I don't think you really need ShO to survive anything anymore but my point was more that you frequently don't need to expend the GCD switching back to SwO or to SwO initially.

When you IB instead of FC, this is what you give up --

630 potency with at 10% crit boost. I think the current crit multiplier for BiS gear is around 170%. I think on average, that works out to around 674 potency.

So you lose 314 potential potency on average each time you IB. After that, you are stuck in Defiance for another 4 GCDs. Assuming the best case scenario where those 4 GCDs are HS, Maim, Path, and HS, it breaks down like this: 135+171+225+135. If you were in Deliverance, those potencies would be 189+239.4+315+189 with a small amount of average potency added based on crit. That totals out to another 266.4+ lost potency.

As for PLD, whether or not the potency loss is worse depends entirely on what GCD is being pushed out of the phase/fight. Just to do the hypothetical math -- assuming you swap to ShO after refreshing GB, lose an FB and SB at the end of the fight due to Oaths consuming 2 GCDs, have a 2.24s delay weapon, and spend 2 GCDs in ShO to weather the tank buster, you lose ~150 potency from lost SwO bonuses (potentially only 100), 150 + 200 potency from the lost FB and SB, and 22.5+30 from the ShO damage penalty on your FB and SB while in ShO. That totals to 552.5 lost potency + some potency lost from GB clipping. If you are getting anything else but FB and SB pushed out of the phase/fight then the loss is larger.

If its just a one way swap to ShO / Defiance, the PLD loses less potency because their subsequent potency loss is lighter.

Assuming an Eye > BB rotation, WAR's ppGCD in Deliverance is ~344+ including Maim and FC but not including the Deliverance crit bonus. Their ppGCD in Defiance is ~234 including Maim and IB. PLD's ppGCD in SwO is around ~320 not including the things I specified earlier. PLD's ppGCD in ShO is around ~229.

But this is actually not really relevant. My point was that WAR has to trade DPS for mitigation. I think the numbers clearly prove that. I never argued it was more or less than PLD.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

I claimed that as a WAR, you feel really bad needing to use IB because of how big of a DPS hit it is.

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Do WAR really feel bad because they survived a big hit ? Maybe my tank pride is just misplaced...

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Originally Posted by Brian_

My point was that WAR has to trade DPS for mitigation.

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We still don't have the same view of what a "trade-off" is. WAR can do either of those, it just can't do them at the same time.

For example, in 2.x, BRD's lesser DPS what a trade-off for its mobility. It has no way of bypassing that situation, it was carved in its design. PLD lower potency on skills was a trade-off for its shield, and it also couldn't do anything for it...

WAR has nothing like that. If the situation requires heavy mitigation, it can do it. If the situation requires high burst damage, it can also do it.
It can do very well as a MT, with the shortest CD on mitigation, and very well as an OT, by having great utility and keeping all of its skills relevant thanks to additionnal effects on mitigation CD.
And those effects are just arbitrary. Why would Raw Intuition and Vengeance give a stack ? Why is Berserk increasing AP instead of damage ?

Just because you don't define something as a trade-off doesn't mean it's not a trade-off according to the English language. This has nothing to do with views and everything to do with a dictionary.

You also conveniently left out the most common situation in progression -- situations that require you to have both maximized DPS and maximized mitigation. And, WAR can't do that nearly as well as either PLD or DRK. That is the reality of why WARs OT -- because of the trade-off they need to make that PLD and DRK can do better.

That's another great point, you don't expend damage using Shadowskin or Rampart, but the equivalent move in Inner Beast comes with a price in terms of overall damage to use.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Just because you don't define something as a trade-off doesn't mean it's not a trade-off according to the English language. This has nothing to do with views and everything to do with a dictionary.

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Even in dictionnaries, "trade-off" rarely describes a situation where you can go back and forth at will. In economics or computer science, it's usually a one time decision that drives your entire plan of action.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You also conveniently left out the most common situation in progression -- situations that require you to have both maximized DPS and maximized mitigation.

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How much time does your MT spend in tank stance if you need "maximized mitigation" ?

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

That's another great point, you don't expend damage using Shadowskin or Rampart, but the equivalent move in Inner Beast comes with a price in terms of overall damage to use.

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You also don't have the same eHP by using Rampart than a WAR using IB.

If you're at full HP (and you probably won't be) then a 2k inner beast might give you another 7% HP for a total of like 1.28x eHP. But if you're not at full HP, and that inner beast doesn't put you over your max non-defiance HP, then there is no difference in eHP (because Defiance's benefit is only when you have more than 100% your base (deliverance or w/e) HP.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

But if you're not at full HP, and that inner beast doesn't put you over your max non-defiance HP, then there is no difference in eHP (because Defiance's benefit is only when you have more than 100% your base (deliverance or w/e) HP.

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Defiance helps you recover much faster. That's its main benefit, exactly because it's here whatever your HP is.
And if you need this extra HP to survive the incoming hit, it means that a SwO PLD with Rampart alone would have died too.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Even in dictionnaries, "trade-off" rarely describes a situation where you can go back and forth at will. In economics or computer science, it's usually a one time decision that drives your entire plan of action.

How much time does your MT spend in tank stance if you need "maximized mitigation" ?

You also don't have the same eHP by using Rampart than a WAR using IB.

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A: I think you mean "dictionaries". if you're going to be petty *AT LEAST* get your spelling right.

B: since you clearly advertised an appetite for the shallow things in life, you need to acknowledge that warriors ARE ALWAYS MAKING A CHOICE.

You can't (logically) gripe that we have better offensive cooldowns and then complain that IB is maybe, arguably, slightly better than things like shadowskin or rampart. The class is *built* around making choices.

The reality is inner beast is only used when absolutely necessary and if none of warriors stack choices were any good then the whole point of having stacks and making intelligent choices would be rendered MOOT.

That's why I MADE this topic in THE FIRST PLACE: to get the opinion on how WAR could be adjusted without absolutely DESTROYING its power of choice that make it so fun, engaging, and rewarding for intelligent players. unfortunately it's been co-opted by everything but intelligent tanks interested in intelligent discussion.

It seems like for every rational post on here about actual issues with the class I see one or two dozen people COMPLETELY ignorant of how the classes mechanics actually handle, griping left and right about how they won't be sated until pld and drk are both easier to play and don't have to deal with spur of the moment decision making, while also both having better dps and universal Edef and self healing and everything war has but better but easier and blah blah blah. the best part is most of these people are dps mains.... or pld mains... or drk mains..... making brilliant posts left and right.

Someone seriously said holmgang was better than HG.... wth is wrong with this community? o_O

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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That's sort of irrelevant to what I said. Doesn't matter whether or not the tank needed the HP, all I said is that so long as the WAR has less than full HP the eHP isn't the same.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

A:

Someone seriously said holmgang was better than HG.... wth is wrong with this community? o_O

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To be fair, Holmgang is a lot more fun than hallowed ground. :p

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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Sorry, but I agree with Reynhart here. The problem here is that you are treating WARs versatility like it is a detriment. WARs have high damage and good survivability all rolled into one, yes they can't have both at the same time, but the point is that are good at both (not to mention their self healing which makes them the best job in the game for soloing). PLD and DRK have no such versatility and only marginally beat WAR in one area, mitigation, and the problem with that is that if you can survive the damage, any extra mitigation means nothing (and there is no fight in the game that a WAR can't comfortably MT). Yes, WAR has to go into tank stance for tank busters, but so do all tanks if they aim to survive, WAR just has an easier time with it than others.

Your points are moot regardless as the devs do share Reynharts (and my own) view and have talked about job balancing (citing WAR and SCH specifically as being too good) in recent interviews, and the reason that this is the case is because PLDs and DRKs do not share the same versatility as WAR, making DRK/PLD compositions are unviable, guaranteeing WAR a space. This is combined with PLD and DRKs specializations in magic/physical damage (for reference PLD only has 2 (3 including HG, which has a 7min cooldown) cooldowns that it can use in magic damage fights, wheras WAR has 2 that it can use while in deliverance (Vengence and Holmgang) and 3 while in Defiance, and this is not counting the fact that Storms path works in both magic and physical fights)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Defiance helps you recover much faster. That's its main benefit, exactly because it's here whatever your HP is.
And if you need this extra HP to survive the incoming hit, it means that a SwO PLD with Rampart alone would have died too.

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A pld in Swo can use rampart without swapping or giving anything up, including a GCD(kinda a big deal, if you disagree look at any post ever about clemency. If you know a fraction of what you're claiming to this should be super familiar to you and you should be able to concede this point. that assumes you're actually familiar with this subject matter though. PLD can ALSO switch before the hit comes in and gain another 20% mitigation just for switching, AND burn rampart for 40% mitigation. That is the reason pld and drk should never have ogcd stance switching. /obvious logic

And ffs forget rampart, if you want to talk pld cooldowns heaven FORBID we mention shelltron. Roughly another 20% physical mitigation cooldown on a 20 second timer, and again off gcd....

Sorry, but how are you trying to pretend WARs tank stance is as good as anything plds can do? War's advantages lie in self healing and dps, and the two do go hand in hand. The biggest gray area is in the utility of path and eye. Trying to pretend they're currently as durable as pld on top of all that is hilariously fallacious.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

To be fair, Holmgang is a lot more fun than hallowed ground. :p

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........ ;P

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

you need to acknowledge that warriors ARE ALWAYS MAKING A CHOICE.

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Every job is constantly making choices of what GCD they need to use. WAR are the only one to bitch about how they waste offensive capabilities to survive. God, what will it be when every PLD complain that they're losing DSP when casting Stoneskin, losing DPS when healing themselves (or other) with Clemency, losing DPS to stun an add, losing DPS to keep aggro on a group of mobs, losing DPS to boost their enmity or simply replenish their MP...oh, wait, they don't... because the whole community already complains that they do so instead of DPSing DPSing DPSing DPSing...

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

You can't (logically) gripe that we have better offensive cooldowns and then complain that IB is maybe, arguably, slightly better than things like shadowskin or rampart. The class is *built* around making choices.

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Of course I can. For the most of 2.x, WAR did higher damage than PLD on every WS, despite being able to stack more frequent and higher mitigation except for HG.
Tell me what "trade-off" it has, back then...

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

The reality is inner beast is only used when absolutely necessary and if none of warriors stack choices were any good then the whole point of having stacks and making intelligent choices would be rendered MOOT.

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The reality is that WAR sounds like its a very skilled base decision when all fights are totally scripted and you always know exaclty what attacks will come at what time.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

PLD can ALSO switch before the hit comes in and gain another 20% mitigation just for switching, AND burn rampart for 40% mitigation.

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36%

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Roughly another 20% physical mitigation cooldown on a 20 second timer, and again off gcd....

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30 seconds

If you're going to be petty *AT LEAST* get your numbers right

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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I don't think that any argument that boils down to 'this comp is bad so we must make this other comp worse'. Say you take path off of WAR and give them just a 100% damage done is turned into regen. That utility, gone, whatever. But SE would still be valuable to NIN/PLD/DRK damage. You'd still want the +10% damage from that (and make NIN's life easier) so you would still take a Warrior. Then do you take both away? Make SE worse, similar to Delirium (just the healing down?). I mean, I'd almost rather they gave SE to the DRK and then buff PLD utility so that it'd be DRK/PLD DRK/WAR, but then people would complain that DRK is too popular.

I'd argue that the tankiness of a WAR is almost irrelevant unless they absolutely cannot tank. An OT that only takes swaps and has a CD for it will be fine in all ways for damage... But if they just had no mitigation at all (IE 2.0 WAR) then we have a completely different situation.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

That's why I MADE this topic in THE FIRST PLACE: to get the opinion on how WAR could be adjusted without absolutely DESTROYING its power of choice that make it so fun, engaging, and rewarding for intelligent players. unfortunately it's been co-opted by everything but intelligent tanks interested in intelligent discussion.

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To be fair most of you hear the word nerf and instantly catastrophize. Historically nerfs have been simple number changes and have never "DESTROYED" the design of a job (there have arguably been buffs that have done this though). Choices between dps and tankiness are integral to tanking in this game in general, and its a little arrogant to assume that just because WAR is getting adjusted, along with all the other tanks in all likelihood, that that design concept is going out the window.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Every job is constantly making choices of what GCD they need to use. WAR are the only one to bitch about how they waste offensive capabilities to survive. God, what will it be when every PLD complain that they're losing DSP when casting Stoneskin, losing DPS when healing themselves (or other) with Clemency, losing DPS to stun an add, losing DPS to keep aggro on a group of mobs, losing DPS to boost their enmity or simply replenish their MP...oh, wait, they don't... because the whole community already complains that they do so instead of DPSing DPSing DPSing DPSing...

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Plds use stoneskin during dowtime. Nice job illustrating your ignorance of how the job *actually* handles. Pld thrives on downtime, War suffers. Either you can't use abilities because they require a target, or you're burning an ability that you have to wait, or etc. pld's have so much utility that can be leveraged whenever a boss goes untargetable. and how often tdo they actually use it? never.. it's so much easier to just gripe about how they should have it better, afterall.

But hey nice strawmans, trying to change the whole argument when I illustrated the issues in your classic pld bawlfest. I personally have posted multiple times that flash not generating any sort of direct or effective dps is a serious issue with the class.

As far as the rest- lolyeah, people rely on pld to stun. And losing dps to replenish mp....wait, goring blade is a DPS *LOSS* now? how do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone with logic like that? xD

It sounds more like you're just so furious with the current tank meta that you're lashing out on.... everything. If that's the case that is fair and fine and perfectly your point of view. I also do not agree it is the be al end all or even a significant point of relevance to this topic.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

snip

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I didn't say that, I'm implying that WAR is over-designed, it is designed to do everything competently (albeit not at the same time as has been discussed), and that as as a result of this there is a greater expectation of tanks as a whole, which the other two cannot keep up with. Adjustments need to be (and likely will be with the information from the devs) made from both sides, with PLD and DRK being more viable from an OT standpoint, and WAR being less of a jack of all trades (master of all).

Also, your argument about comps falls apart when instead of looking at it as "PLD and DRK comps don't work" you look at it as "PLD and DRK comps both work best when accompanied by a WAR", the issue we face here is that WARs are basically mandatory

At the moment WAR excels more being OT and DRK/PLD for MT even though the MT/OT archtype is moot due to the tank swaps mechanic. When another tank comes along, meta will shift again or perhaps WAR remains to be the premium tank and the 3 jobs will have to wrestle for that 1 slot. That's definitely on SE.

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Plds use stoneskin during dowtime

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Or just before a big hit...

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

And losing dps to replenish mp....wait, goring blade is a DPS *LOSS* now? how do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone with logic like that? xD

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You really understand what you want, right ? If you need MP fast, you'll patiently wait for GB to finish ticking before using Riot again...?

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Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

It sounds more like you're just so furious with the current tank meta

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Yes, I'm furious with the tank meta, because it went for far too long before someone actually provides real adjustment to shift it. And judging by what has been done to PLD, it just shows that they have absolutely no idea of what it needs to stand true to its concept.

If Path was 5% damage reduction, and Eye was 5% reduction, then you could probably slot in another tank if they had some way of increasing overall damage.

What comes to mind would be changing something like Divine Veil so that => Until the tank takes N% of damage, the party takes 15% less damage. Basically, so long as there isn't a tank swap happening, everyone (including the MT) takes less damage. This is pretty broken, but it would be one crazy way of using a single skill. You could put a WAR in the first slot to round out that +5%, but you could also change DRK Delirium to -10% magic damage done (similar to path). between the two of them you would have the hilarious situation of everyone having -25% damage taken from Magic. Basically a better than Fey Illumination + Soil.

Assuming that you have a fight where surviving isn't an issue (hence can mostly be solo healed) this might actually give enough of a reason to just drop a healer and all of a sudden you have 5 DPS :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For example, in 2.x, BRD's lesser DPS what a trade-off for its mobility. It has no way of bypassing that situation, it was carved in its design.

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It's funny because BRD dps 2.x was fine, people are just bad at it. Most BRDs back then couldn't even break that 400dps, which was still much lower then what it could do tbh.

You are free to search online what dps BRD was capable of.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, I'm furious with the tank meta, because it went for far too long before someone actually provides real adjustment to shift it. And judging by what has been done to PLD, it just shows that they have absolutely no idea of what it needs to stand true to its concept.

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I completely agree, and I am someone who advocates uniqueness between jobs. PLD is all about support and utility when it comes to OT potential, but the problem is that most of its utility is worthless 99% of the time (tempered will, cover, clemency), and to make PLD more viable, this utility needs to either be changed or become more relevant. PLD could easily become more viable if it had skills akin to battle litany in its arsenal, which could increase raid DPS to close the gap between it and WAR, while not actually increasing PLDs DPS. And for balance reasons, this could be tied to sword oath.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

I'd love to see PLD get some abilities like Bard songs (be them called chants or prayers or whatever) for DPS gains/mitigation. It'd be a nice addition to the game. Possibly also changing cover to a 120s 'give the target +20% damage reduction' to make it feel better.

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I'd simply be happy with cover reading "Take all damage intended for target party member". The physical damage aspect alone is most of the reason that the skill is worthless (the other being that most of the scenarios where it is relevant are scenarios where you as the MT messed up, and it should not be a "fix mistakes" button).

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

You are free to search online what dps BRD was capable of.

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They were capable of doing fine (Some of them even did 1000 DPS but not per second :p), but less than BLM when mobility wasn't needed.

Which is why some BRD complained that mobility was overrated...and thus, Wanderer's Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Or just before a big hit...

You really understand what you want, right ? If you need MP fast, you'll patiently wait for GB to finish ticking before using Riot again...?

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Sorry, you're right. Pld is so starved for mp use that they should be frequently using Riot blade. In fact, forget goring blade completely. You're probably best served aborting the combo prematurely to get in more mp quicker.