Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

Guildhests wouldn't work. Every one I have been in, people ignore instructions fron npc.

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Originally Posted by Krazymagic

Lot of people making a mountain out of a mole hill here, and then suggesting really stupid things to fix perceived mountain they have created.

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Quality of life changes exists to improve player experience and make systems more intuitive and easier to grasp, the devs have put in some great QoL changes for molehills in the past (quest icon changes, ability to see waymarks on minimap), and there is no drawback to improving the visibility and accessibility of a skill required by all tanks. You seem to like to blame players (get good scrub tank mentality etc.), and maybe it is the players fault, but that does not mean that the system cannot be improved.

If making this change allows even one tank to get provoke when they would have otherwise missed it, then that is one less tank without provoke in the DF. Personally I do think this is something we will see in the future, there is no reason not to.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

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I main PLD and SCH. They are the two classes Ive probably played the most. I could tell you several stories when playing sch where a tank didn't have provoke and it caused a wipe. The point is this....If you want to be a sub par tank, and you are sub par when you gimp on important cross class abilities, then that is your choice. There is not a single ability across all 3 tanks that can give you instant threat aside from Provoke. I shouldn't need to explain why this is worthwhile for a tank to have. The point is that there is no reason not to have it. We are talking about something that can be obtained in 1 day. No matter what class I play, I never make it a point to intentionally gimp myself nor do I have a mindset of minimal effort to get by. Its your choice though of course to do what you will, but its also peoples choice as to wether they want to play with someone who has such a mindset; so if a situation arises where your minimal effort approach manifests itself by hurting a groups gameplay, don't get butt hurt if/when you get kicked from the group.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Quality of life changes exists to improve player experience and make systems more intuitive and easier to grasp, the devs have put in some great QoL changes for molehills in the past (quest icon changes, ability to see waymarks on minimap), and there is no drawback to improving the visibility and accessibility of a skill required by all tanks. You seem to like to blame players (get good scrub tank mentality etc.), and maybe it is the players fault, but that does not mean that the system cannot be improved.

If making this change allows even one tank to get provoke when they would have otherwise missed it, then that is one less tank without provoke in the DF. Personally I do think this is something we will see in the future, there is no reason not to.

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Im actually quite reasonable. I enjoy most all the QoL changes that you mention. What change are you talking about specifically that you would like to see though? I dont see where the system is broken in any way here. Changes I generally frown upon are massive system overhauls that get suggested to fix a problem who's root cause is player ignorance or laziness. "Lets rework an entire system for a 1% minority of players who simply dont care or just dont get it" type of changes.. I dont think those are worthwile avenues.

Please let me know though what change you are eluding to when you say "Personally I do think this is something we will see in the future, there is no reason not to."

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Guildhests wouldn't work. Every one I have been in, people ignore instructions fron npc.

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Which is sad because a lot of guildhest teach you different things that do appear later in the games content. Its a shame they stopped guildhests or didn't make them more strict. But again what is strict in this game?

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Originally Posted by Krazymagic

Im actually quite reasonable. I enjoy most all the QoL changes that you mention. What change are you talking about specifically that you would like to see though? I dont see where the system is broken in any way here. Changes I generally frown upon are massive system overhauls that get suggested to fix a problem who's root cause is player ignorance or laziness. "Lets rework an entire system for a 1% minority of players who simply dont care or just dont get it" type of changes.. I dont think those are worthwile avenues.

Please let me know though what change you are eluding to when you say "Personally I do think this is something we will see in the future, there is no reason not to."

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Personally I think that WARs and DRKs will get their own taunt skill in 4.0, either as a new lvl 60-70 skill, or as an additional lvl 50 skill (like stoneskin II), with provoke being taken off the cross class system. The skill is too vital to be considered "optional".

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Personally I think that WARs and DRKs will get their own taunt skill in 4.0, either as a new lvl 60-70 skill, or as an additional lvl 50 skill (like stoneskin II), with provoke being taken off the cross class system. The skill is too vital to be considered "optional".

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I dont think it will happen personally, but a change like this wouldn't bother me. Provoke isnt unique to this situation. Swift cast is the same situation for healers....and you have to level Thaumaturge to acquire it, which is a DPS class. Healers could argue they dont wanna dps, and shouldn't have to level a dps to acquire this important skill. You can make similar arguments for several classes, including crafting classes. The whole point of cross class abilities is to strongly encourage players to do more than one class. Do not expect SE to make changes that nullify this need, it is central to the games design in fact. This was also true in FFXI with sub jobs. SE has a tract record on this kind of issue. I would be very surprised if SE made a taunt for each tank.

EDIT: I would also add that the only way your suggestion even makes sense, and would work, is if every tank got a taunt at roughly the same level. If you remove provoke from closs class, then add a taunt for the other tanks post level 50.....bad design. wont happen.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Personally I think that WARs and DRKs will get their own taunt skill in 4.0, either as a new lvl 60-70 skill, or as an additional lvl 50 skill (like stoneskin II), with provoke being taken off the cross class system. The skill is too vital to be considered "optional".

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For DRK, it would actually be exceptionally easy - Give the effect to a Dark Arts'd oGCD. Plunge, for example. It would reduce DRK DPS a little in swap-heavy encounters, but that aside... it's workable and job-flavored.

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Originally Posted by Krazymagic

EDIT: I would also add that the only way your suggestion even makes sense, and would work, is if every tank got a taunt at roughly the same level. If you remove provoke from closs class, then add a taunt for the other tanks post level 50.....bad design. wont happen.

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agree. it's also a waste of time to mess with existing skills on current jobs and classes that are not broken.

but the game is certainly not above having the exact same thing across multiple classes/jobs and just name them something different. a new job might have a Provoke-like spell/ability and not have to cross-class Provoke at all.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Guildhests wouldn't work. Every one I have been in, people ignore instructions fron npc.

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They keep killing the turtle. Why...WHY do they keep killing the turtle?!?

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Originally Posted by Krazymagic

Provoke isnt unique to this situation. Swift cast is the same situation for healers....and you have to level Thaumaturge to acquire it, which is a DPS class.

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Swiftcast/Quelling Strikes/Blood for blood etc. are slightly different. They are very useful skills to have, but all content CAN be beaten without them, if people don't need to be raised often, then you can hard raise just fine, and quelling isn't needed if you have very good tanks and watch your enmity. I'm not saying these skills are not highly recommended for high level play, but the point is that tank swaps are impossible without provoke, meaning that most of the time no provoke means an instant wipe, and this is the only skill where this is the case.

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Originally Posted by Krazymagic

EDIT: I would also add that the only way your suggestion even makes sense, and would work, is if every tank got a taunt at roughly the same level. If you remove provoke from closs class, then add a taunt for the other tanks post level 50.....bad design. wont happen.

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I don't mind what level they give it at, but level 50 would be fine, as 8-man content is not accessible until level 50, which is the where provoke is required most (before that it is only helpful in a few situation).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you're going to see anything changed here. I also don't personally think a change needs to happen, mainly because there is no need for it. Everything is working as intended here. Every class has stuff they need to level other classes for, all with varying levels of importance. While you make a case for provoke being the most important of these, and perhaps that is true, I still dont think that necessitates any change. The game is built around a system that requires you to level multiple classes. Do you know the last time SE made a change to cross class abilities like is being suggested here? Never. What has changed to require a sudden change of course? Nothing.

I personally think that the whole class and cross-class system is boring and should be scrapped if they don't want to improve it (and I already have every single class high level enough to have every single cross-class options available for every single job so I'm not saying this because I'm lazy). They never added any cross-class, there is no job that can cross-class rogue skills, and the new jobs from now on won't ever get a class so they'll never share any of their skills to the other classes. We didn't even get an extra slot at level 60. The 5 cross class skills we have now just feel like a product of laziness from the developpers who, instead of giving each class 5 more unique skills, chose to just give them all the same thing to complete their kit (every physical DPS gets the same Lancer and Pugilist skills with the exception of MCH who gets archer instead of Pugilist, and both DRG and MNK have the same Marauder skills since they don't cross-class with themselves, both caster DPS get the same Archer skills, etc... there is absolutely no originality or even "choice", since the 5 skills we take for each class are the only 5 that are somewhat good, the other options being completely useless shit). The basic idea of having the possibility to get skills from other classes as a reward for levelling every class was good, but the result in game is really lame. And since they show all the signs that they aren't willing to improve it in any way, shape or form, I think that they should just delete this system and replace the 5 missing skills with 5 new skills for each job, while also changing the levels at which we learn most skills since a lot of them make no sense (PLD being the derpest of all the jobs in that matter, learning ShO at 40 while the other tanks have their tanking stance at 30, or the fact that they learn very basic DPS combos only at 54 and 60 even tho it would make more sense to have them a lot earlier to help with solo questing... Sheltron being an incredibly basic block skill too, only learned at 52 while he can learn to be outright Invincible 2 levels earlier).

I'm hoping a decent rework of classes/jobs/advanced jobs in general come 4.0

They seriously can't be planning on just tacking 5 new skills onto every job and calling it a day. I hope.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I'm hoping a decent rework of classes/jobs/advanced jobs in general come 4.0

They seriously can't be planning on just tacking 5 new skills onto every job and calling it a day. I hope.

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be fine with them being cooldowns, not looking forward to 4 skills only being available when a strict timer on a medium recast is up...

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Guildhests wouldn't work. Every one I have been in, people ignore instructions fron npc.

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Well, the one with the simultanious death enemies can't be ignored.
If you don't do it properly they just keep resurrecting each other.

Also, I like the bubbles one....
The NPC keeps insulting you when you do it wrong, would only be better if it was actually voiced. XD

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

They keep killing the turtle. Why...WHY do they keep killing the turtle?!?

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OH god... had one time I did that one as a scholar and the tank wouldn't bring him to the herbs...

I actually stopped healing him, and dismissed my fairy, hoping the turtle would kill him so it would aggro onto onf of the rest of us standing near the smoking herbs.


It was that day that I learned the herbs have a time limit.
They go out after a certain amount of time and another sprite spawns.

We had to light the patch three times!

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Originally Posted by Zojha

For DRK, it would actually be exceptionally easy - Give the effect to a Dark Arts'd oGCD. Plunge, for example. It would reduce DRK DPS a little in swap-heavy encounters, but that aside... it's workable and job-flavored.

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Huhh this sounds like a bad idea, why would they force a DRK to spend a Dark Arts for taunting while PLD just spends a free 20sec CD which has almost no other utility anyway ? Sounds completely unbalanced. It's just like if the WAR taunt forced you to spend 5 stacks of Wrath (or even 2-3 since a DA isn't worth 5 stacks when you compare the two jobs). And Plunge already has two utilities, being a gap closer and a damaging oGCD. If you make it required for tank swapping, we'd have to keep it for these instances, defeating the purpose of the skill in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Sounds completely unbalanced.

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So does WAR having to consume 5 wrath stacks for Inner Beast mitigation, where DRK and PLD can just pop shadowskin/bulwark which have no other use and be done.
Nobody really complains about WAR being underpowered, tho.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So does WAR having to consume 5 wrath stacks for Inner Beast mitigation, where DRK and PLD can just pop shadowskin/bulwark which have no other use and be done.
Nobody really complains about WAR being underpowered, tho.

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Lol IB has way more uptime than any other PLD and DRK CD. And when you use IB, you also hit with a 300 potency attack which ignores the Defiance damage penalty while healing you for 100% of the damage dealt. You can't compare IB with anything from the other 2 tanks, maybe Dark Mind is the closest thing to it, which costs a Dark Arts to be used at full power and still has 60sec CD while IB can be available every ~20 seconds or so if they decide one day to create a fight which require such mitigation, and without counting Infuriate. Speaking about Bulwark; WAR has Vengence which has 60sec less CD and is more efficient in every possible way, while granting them DPS and a stack. It's also more efficient than PLD's Sentinel since it lasts 15sec for 2min CD and only reduces 2% less damage when both tanks are in their respective tanking stance.
Your comparison is completely out of place here, we're talking about taunting a target. It's completely free for PLD, it shouldn't cost a friking DA for DRK, and shouldn't cost anything to WAR aswell.

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Originally Posted by Luxpheras

[*]Additional Actions Window
The level in which the additional actions can be used will be added in the additional actions window like below:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...005902&thumb=1

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I'm just gonna leave this right here, dunno if our suggestion will bear any fruit with this changes..

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Your comparison is completely out of place here, we're talking about taunting a target.

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And I was comparing with mitigation, because we do have one mitigation example where tradeoffs exist (Plus, Mitigation is just as crucial a tank thing as taunt). Inner Beast is used in a similar way as Shadowskin/Rampart, as mitigation for a tank-buster, since it's the only %damage reduction WARs have outside of Vengeance (Foresight is very weak and often not even applicable). It also has a much shorter duration that the other spells. And using it means you lose out of a Fell Cleave. But, WARs make up in other ways.

This is very much comparable to having taunt on a Dark Arts'd oGCD, as it presents very similar tradeoffs.

Anywhoo, if you have better ideas how to make a unique but functional taunt for the other tanks, feel free to shoot, because that's what I was originally replying to. Alternately, we could just copy WAR's skillset, paste it to the other two tanks, add provoke and call it a day - all imbalances gone in an instant. If we're just going to copy tools, might as well.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And I was comparing with mitigation, because we do have one mitigation example where tradeoffs exist (Plus, Mitigation is just as crucial a tank thing as taunt). Inner Beast is used in a similar way as Shadowskin/Rampart, as mitigation for a tank-buster, since it's the only %damage reduction WARs have outside of Vengeance (Foresight is very weak and often not even applicable). It also has a much shorter duration that the other spells. And using it means you lose out of a Fell Cleave. But, WARs make up in other ways.

This is very much comparable to having taunt on a Dark Arts'd oGCD, as it presents very similar tradeoffs.

Anywhoo, if you have better ideas how to make a unique but functional taunt for the other tanks, feel free to shoot, because that's what I was originally replying to. Alternately, we could just copy WAR's skillset, paste it to the other two tanks, add provoke and call it a day - all imbalances gone in an instant. If we're just going to copy tools, might as well.

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The thing is that the tradeoff isn't comparable; WAR only sacrifices the difference in damage between a FC and an IB when he uses IB, whereas using Shadowskin to mitigate a tank buster sacrifices a possibility to use it for DPSing out of Grit while MTing for the next 90sec, which I believe outweights the WAR sacrifice. Also, WAR can use IB so often that you have it as a guaranteed basic mitigation tool for every single tank buster in any fight, whereas the CD on Shadowskin forces you to use other CDs. And while WAR has less %damage reduction CDs, it has very similar tools in terms of effective mitigation. Thrill of Battle + Convo is almost equal to Rampart/Shadowskin for example (it's equivalent to roughly 17% damage reduction). Defiance in itself is equal to ShO/Grit, Raw Intuition is superior to Bulwark and Dark Dance in every possible way, and WAR has the best self-healing-while-full-on-DPSing amongst the 3 tanks. Take into account the fact that Vengence has 1min less CD than Sentinel and Shadow Wall while lasting 50% longer, and the fact that they reflect damage with it and generate a stack as well as with RI... In terms of overall mitigation, WAR is honestly above the other two, so your comparison IS out of place. You're also comparing a tool that only has ONE purpose (Provoke) to a tool that can be used for many different things and forces you to make a choice (mitigation). When you use a mitigation tool, you sacrifice something, wether it be WAR using IB or any of its CDs, DRK and PLD using any of their CDs, in a sense that you sacrifice safe DPS stance uptime (and roughly 200 potency for IB). When you use Provoke for a tank swap, you don't sacrifice anything since you couldn't get any benefit from it anyway. Having to sacrifice a DA for a taunt on DRK is a bad idea, since we already spend the MP to activate Grit, and on top of that have to use an enmity combo which doesn't generate MP, so we also sacrifice 884 MP from the absence of Syphon Strike. Tank swapping already costs roughly 2200 MP to a DRK, if you add a Dark Arts it makes it cost roughly 4000 MP instead, which is almost 2/3rd of our MP gauge on top of a DPS loss from : 1. Sacrificing a GCD to activate Grit 2. Having to use our weakest combo in terms of damage 3. Having our damage output nerfed by Grit. And any player who knows about how DRK works knows that MP also directly translates into potency for DRK. We already sacrifice enough for tank swapping.

My only idea right off the bat to get a Provoke for each tank might be just putting a taunt aspect to Grit, making it so when you activate Grit, the enemy you're targetting is taunted. This would allow DRK to activate his tanking stance at the same time as the tank swapping is occurring, you'd be doing something like Hard Slash -> Spinning Slash -> Grit -> Power Slash (with oGCDs weaved into it if available of course, like DA C&S, DP or whatevs). In situations where DRK would be OTing and needing to grab an add, he would just prepare his combo on the boss, target the add as soon as it spawns, activate Grit, Plunge if available, then use his combo finisher. It could be a very interesting way of taunting. I thought about that because Grit has a very "menacing" animation, which could completely work for a taunt animation. Grit only being a Shield Oath clone with such an offensive animation feels quite weird IMO.

For WAR, I was thinking about a super beast battle cry, AoE-taunting for like Flash's radius. It could also add a stack of Wrath/Abandon when used.

It's just my ideas tho, might be considered unbalanced as well, and I doubt that the devs would do that anyway. It's more likely that if they ever give every tank its own taunt, it will just be Provoke for everyone at level 22.

Rough idea spread of Provoke alternatives:

This would assume an extra role-specific ability slot, by which every tank receives a taunt ability of some sort by a certain level, which can then be swapped with any other taunt skill learned. Additional taunt skills can then be further acquired through cross-class. Provoke would be removed from the main Gladiator class abilities, and an additional Gladiator skill added in its slot. Tanks will now have one extra button. Something similar may be done for Cleric Stance, etc., among healers, to show how central these skills are and give a bit more flavor to how those functions are performed.

MRD/WAR:
Challenge - Calls the attention of nearby enemies within 10 yalms, effect increasing with proximity and partially split among the enemies affected. (Strikes three times, at sixth of a GCD intervals.) Generates temporary enmity with a 50% chance to force the enemy to target you for 1.5 seconds. Effectiveness increased with total enmity on the target.

DRK:
Command - Forces the target's attention onto you for three seconds while causing it to take bonus temporary enmity from your attacks and duplicate 50% of enmity received to enemies within 6 yalms of the target. Each enmity-embonused attack against the target refreshes the duration. Effect suffers diminishing returns. Bonus enmity increased with total enmity on the target.

GLD/PLD:
Provoke - [Unchanged] Directs the target's focus to you, placing yourself at the top of the target's enmity list.

Obviously, under these descriptions, Provoke remains superior in any situation where an OT would not have been generating enmity prior, but its lead is mitigated as swap count increases. These ideas will therefore need significant revamp and balancing in order to be feasible. For now I just wanted to show what a few different options might look like. Ideally, I'd like to rework enmity completely, coupled with mob AI revamps, before making any real ideas for alternate taunting abilities.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

This isn't a single player game. If they belong to a FC they should learn about it from friends there. Discussions in our FC talk about lots of things including cross class skills that are important.

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Not all players belong to an FC. Such things are not discussed in all FCs. Personally I don't think I have ever seen cross class skills come up in any FC discussions.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Guildhests

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Which is also funny, because the very first guildhest locks marauder from using aoe enmity generated skill unless the marauder crossclass flash at its first slot, in which also means the marauder levels another tank (GLA) to at least 8... So marauder can be considered a lousy DPS on that duty..

If one would do like how the guildhest's description intend players to do which is by drawing single targets from groups of mobs using ranged attacks.. Not a single tank even have a range attack to do that and the tutorial seems more like a farce to me..

Back on the original topic, Provoke really is in a league of its own in terms of importance (although Protect and Cleric Stance are arguably not far behind). The thing is that Provoke is designed to be a necessary mechanic to clear certain fights. There aren't any fights where the dev team designed Quelling or Swiftcast to be part of a necessary mechanic for the fight.

I agree that Provoke should've been mandatory across all Tanks. It's the same way that SCH and AST have Resurrection and Ascend, respectively, instead of having to Cross Class Raise from CNJ.

An easy solution would be to just add a new L50 skill for the new tanks that functions the exact same as Provoke with appropriate names, then remove Provoke as a CC skill. They did it for WHM with Stoneskin II, so it wouldn't exactly be far-fetched to have WAR and DRK with 3 L50 skills.

Another option is stop using mechanics that require swaps.

Don't really see this as a problem. Provoke is only used for raiding. If that player wants to raid, pretty sure they would have obtained all their cross class skills

just do like the invention of stoneskin 2, and just give it to all three like whm got. improve gladiators provoke or give them something else in return for it?

Edit:Cakez beat me to it, what Cakez saud

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Originally Posted by Derio

Don't really see this as a problem. Provoke is only used for raiding. If that player wants to raid, pretty sure they would have obtained all their cross class skills

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It's not just Savage content that's been subject to containing Tank swap mechanics. Ultima HM, Titan Ex, Bismark Ex, Nidhogg Ex... just to name a few.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

It's not just Savage content that's been subject to containing Tank swap mechanics. Ultima HM, Titan Ex, Bismark Ex, Nidhogg Ex... just to name a few.

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Thats still content where you know beforehand what you need. ANY job should have all appropriate cross class skills and if you don't well dont be surprised if your kicked

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Originally Posted by Zojha

IMO, if a game requires you to do that, it's badly designed. I don't think people should learn to spoil themselves in advance via wikis and guides "the hard way", but rather that people should be provided all the tools they "need" on the way. External information IMO should be the domain of optional things - secret cutscenes and other such goodies.

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A game wanting you to actually have information on your class is badly designed?

So how about the bosses just lay down and give you loot, since clearly we're too lazy to figure out how to not be a crap tank. Hint, maybe a tank that actually doesn't want to drive a party up the wall will make sure they are set instead of going in without Provoke, or worse, in stuff like piety because "more flashes."

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

A game wanting you to actually have information on your class is badly designed?

So how about the bosses just lay down and give you loot, since clearly we're too lazy to figure out how to not be a crap tank. Hint, maybe a tank that actually doesn't want to drive a party up the wall will make sure they are set instead of going in without Provoke, or worse, in stuff like piety because "more flashes."

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Way to totally twist what she said. It's more like "The game should better explain the important parts of playing the game WITHIN the game. Things like fine tuning your dps rotation and what stats to focus on for raiding are things that can be referenced outside of game." If provoke is so NECESSARY to all tanks, then it should either be explained better, highlighted better, or just plain offered to every tank. No one is asking the game to be made easier, just for REALLY important things, it should be made clear it's REALLY important, instead of a "fun way to personalize your job/class" like it is now.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Don't really see this as a problem. Provoke is only used for raiding. If that player wants to raid, pretty sure they would have obtained all their cross class skills

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er no, not only.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Thats still content where you know beforehand what you need. ANY job should have all appropriate cross class skills and if you don't well dont be surprised if your kicked

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Is it really content where you know beforehand what you need? I don't remember seeing, "Oh, Tanks, don't forget to bring Provoke!" in the quest description for Ultima's Ballad, and a lot of players dive into that as soon as they clear the Praetorium. In fact, that's probably the number one instance where you're likely to run into a tank that doesn't have Provoke, and had no idea it was something they could even get, let alone need.

People WILDLY overestimate the likelihood that people realize they're expected to do any kind of research outside of the game. It might seem like obvious common sense to anyone reading this thread - but that's just it. You're reading this thread. You're already accustomed to looking stuff up online. Insisting that everyone in this game should just KNOW this stuff are being arrogant, in much the same way that middle- or upper-class folks muse that poor people should just stop being poor already.

In single-player games, folks may look things up online, but they aren't expected to and many deliberately avoid doing so because they want to figure stuff out on their own. When a person used to single-player games first plays an MMO, they will have the same mindset. They won't understand at first that there may be important things that the game doesn't tell them, and unless friends online clue them in ahead of time they won't even know there's a question they're supposed to ask.

Even the notion that, "Hey, you can cross-class skills, obviously you should get access to every possible cross-class skill!" is far from universally understood. The vast majority of cross-class skills, you can do just fine in endgame without. I ran into a WHM without Eye-for-an-Eye in Alex 5 Savage the other day, for example, and missing that skill is very unlikely to make-or-break a run. Provoke is different - and in no place in the game, is it pointed out that Provoke is different.

Well I'm glad I saw this thread, i haven't done anything endgame yet and just finished the main story but I thought provoke was useless before seeing this and doing my research. I strictly play games without hints or guides but seeing as tho this is my first mmo I'm starting to realize more and more that this won't be possible in this game

Either way thanks for the info in this thread

For those talking about how FC should help, my FC told me not to level anything other than the requirement for my job stone until I hit max level, because of the armoury bonus. I was actually laughed at for trying to get whm to 34 so my sch could have stoneskin before I hit lv50. I also didn't realise that adloquium adds the barrier even if you aren't healing actual damage until I was like lv54 and someone explained it to me, because the tooltip was confusing in its wording.

The thing is, a game with a specific mechanic involved needs to make sure that the people who are required by that mechanic have all the skills required to complete it before they queue. Even just a warning box with "you must have provoke in order to successfully complete this duty" when a tank without it queues. (Hell, even for pld - I literally never had to use voke before I went into Midas. Like never. And I MAIN paladin.) It doesn't matter if you think someone who doesn't have voke at that level is lazy/rubbish/needs to stop being entitled or whatever - the game STILL NEEDS TO TELL THEM that if they queue up for this duty (for like an hour, in the case of lv50 ex primals) as they are, it will beliterally imcompletable. It's unfair to the tank and it's unfair to the other 7 people otherwise.

I mean, I'm also kinda of the opinion that you shouldn't be allowed to queue for dungeons without having done all the job quests up to that point too, especially in lv30+ content. Seeing tanks without their hate stance or healers without key parts of their toolkit is just painful, but the game doesn't force you to do job quests so people might well think it's better to wait until they're a higher level when it's easier to complete them. (I know I did that with gatherers and crafters, after all).

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

I mean, I'm also kinda of the opinion that you shouldn't be allowed to queue for dungeons without having done all the job quests up to that point too, especially in lv30+ content. Seeing tanks without their hate stance or healers without key parts of their toolkit is just painful, but the game doesn't force you to do job quests so people might well think it's better to wait until they're a higher level when it's easier to complete them. (I know I did that with gatherers and crafters, after all).

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This I can get behind. The first time I played scholar, I was lvl 60 thanks to my 60 SMN. I also had good enough gear (at the time) for expert roulette thanks to my 60 WHM. But I hadn't done a single scholar quest aside from the one that let me equip the scholar soulstone. I actually did a level 60 zone with zero scholar abilities, and no one died. But it was difficult, and I was like "Damn, this is a crappy healer, there's like no special thing to it." Then I went to the class NPC and saw I had quests from level 35.... oops. Next dungeon was much easier and healing was much more enjoyable ;)

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

This I can get behind. The first time I played scholar, I was lvl 60 thanks to my 60 SMN. I also had good enough gear (at the time) for expert roulette thanks to my 60 WHM. But I hadn't done a single scholar quest aside from the one that let me equip the scholar soulstone. I actually did a level 60 zone with zero scholar abilities, and no one died. But it was difficult, and I was like "Damn, this is a crappy healer, there's like no special thing to it." Then I went to the class NPC and saw I had quests from level 35.... oops. Next dungeon was much easier and healing was much more enjoyable ;)

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Why would you willing put 3 other players through that? Even if no one died thats pretty crappy. Just saying.