Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

ah thanks for your reply. The note on 600-800 was more of a note on good tanks rather than average tanks. I think a good tank should cap near 800 not 1400.

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Good tanks do cap out around 850/900...in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I realize off tanks do grab adds in this game, am not sure if that was meant to argue what I said or just reinforce it? That said, I think there needs to be more of that. I'd also like to see some more innovation on mechanics for the off-tank as well as for all roles.

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I think off tanks already have interesting things to do on top of maintaining a high level of damage output in their role.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Healers can do it, tanks would have higher damage, tanks can do it. He said tanks would not be able to do open world content, this counters that.

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This is true.

But as I said in response, being able to do a thing does not make the thing fun.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I'd like to see traits which fundamentally change how you play. For example, one from Guild Wars II that I really liked was the ability to treat yourself as an illusion as a mesmer. Plenty of skills were based off your number of illusions, and you could have max 3, but with this trait you had 4. Additionally, you had skills were you could make all of your illusions explode, the more you had the more damage it dealt. This meant you could explode yourself to cause damage around you, and you could increase the damage of your illusions. That's the TLDR, hope it was clear as I think I recall you said you never played GW2. A similar trait in this game could be something like, Fester treats Shadowflare as a dot - so you'd get 400 potency vs 300 on that attack if you traited for it. Anyway, no, I'd rather game-changing traits vs flavour traits. I do agree with you that it should be done with caution.

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I've played GW2 to cap on Warrior and Elementalist. The pvp was awful, which is why I quit.

Also yeah, I dunno about game changing. If that happens caution needs to be extreme because players will make incredibly bad decisions with it if allowed to free form.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I wouldn't say that Ninja's destroy WAR dps at 75% percentile, it a total of 70 DPS higher.

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And as it goes up (to 80th and 90th and 95th, which also fall under the 'good player' category I mentioned) you see ninjas consistently pull away from warriors. From ~70 dps ahead (Which is a huge advantage added to the extra burst raid dps they bring with trick attack) to over 150 dps ahead at higher tiers of play.

Which is also why I said maybe SE should investigate why ninjas fall off so hard as skill decreases instead of flatly nerfing tank damage?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Oh I see so it's the skill names. Thanks

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They have pretty cool ability names. All of my dark knight skills are boring, like Dark Dance, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger. All very dark.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

And as it goes up (to 80th and 90th and 95th, which also fall under the 'good player' category I mentioned) you see ninjas consistently pull away from warriors. From ~70 dps ahead (Which is a huge advantage added to the extra burst raid dps they bring with trick attack) to over 150 dps ahead at higher tiers of play.

Which is also why I said maybe SE should investigate why ninjas fall off so hard as skill decreases instead of flatly nerfing tank damage?

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I wonder if its such a stupidly simple solution as Dancing Edge use. NIN do noticeably worse when they have no WAR to buff them.

And then there's all the NIN who use Dancing Edge even if I'm keeping Eye up 100% of the time...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

And then there's all the NIN who use Dancing Edge even if I'm keeping Eye up 100% of the time...

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As a NIN...WARs as a whole are horribly unreliable at keeping up Storm's Eye, so it's muscle memory a lot of times (and it's also our most reliable finisher if we're on the move or the boss is turning and we can't guarantee a positional since it has no positional requirement and has higher potency than both Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush if they aren't used from the proper angle). Diabolos isn't raidcore central or anything, but I've never had a static WAR I could trust to keep Storm's Eye up during a boss fight. It's actually incredibly frustrating. :(

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

My argument is precisely that it is my opinion, as it is your arguments as well. We both have our opinions. Someone doing 600-800 DPS is not a dead weight in my personal opinion. (again opinion).

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My argument is actually based on game theory and this particular game's design direction. Having a team member be useless is poor design, period.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I definitely don't have the 'sucks to be you' attitude towards OT, but more that I think the content needs to be tuned to have the OT do something other than DPS. This could be simple, such as picking up adds, or more complex mechanics.

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Clearly you haven't tanked many things. SE is constantly trying to add mechanics for the OT to deal with, and even with this design choice, the OT ends up not-tanking the majority of the time. Heck, most of them can be bypassed by a DPS, as seen in the A3S solo tank video.

You don't see people saying that DPS have "Too much survival" because they can tank an A3S hand, do you?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I also don't see how if a healer can do Open world content right now pulling less than what I am proposing for tanks, of how tank would not be able to do open world content.

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I am sorry, what? Healers do fantastic DPS. It's not rare for my WHM/SCH to be doing upwards of 2k damage during dungeon pulls. My team's SCH pushes 1.1k at Faust. The numbers you propose are less than what my SCH could do at level 50.

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If the average Ninja pulls only 10 DPS higher than the average warrior (OK 50th percentile, as we don't have averages) on Oppressor, why bring a NIN over a WAR?

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Seriously? A lot of Ninja's damage is spread around other party members. From the DRK that now doesn't have to Grit/PowerSlash for hate, to the 10% damage during burst phases, to the extra TP for AoE's, to the WHM who can now use more MP-efficient spells and not worry about hate, thus having more MP to DPS. Same reason for BRD/MCH.

Right now, your argument is "Why would you bring a NIN above a WAR under current circumstances", and I can assure you with absolute confidence that there is no reason to bring an extra Warrior in place of a NIN for any reason other than showing off. It is the exact same reason why you bring a BRD/MCH, that despite doing less damage than a DPS, offer many other things.

Taking a third WAR over a NIN would be no different than doing a 1 Tank 7 Healers run: it's showing off, it doesn't mean that it's optimal in any way shape or form. If the reverse was true, you'd see progressions groups using a third Tank, which has never happened (However, forging the OT for another DPS has happened multiple times).


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Also, since clearly the OT thing hasn't been clear enough to you, I'll put it in healer terms:

Imagine a 10-minute fight, that for some reason has the odd mechanic where the second healer (Now called the off-healer) can only heal for a total of one minute. That means the other 9 minutes, he isn't healing. Eos/Selene wouldn't even cast. He can still do things like Virus/Eye for an Eye, bubbles and DPS.

Except, because of Kaurie's design, Cleric stance was removed from the game, since healers shouldn't DPS. So for 9 minutes, the Off-healer can try to DPS, but really it's just wasting MP to feel busy, the damage contributions of a non-CS stance healer are marginal.

On the other hand, the Main healer is doing all the healing. He can use all his/her abilities, and the success of the run depends on how good the Main Healer is at healing. Meanwhile, the Off-healers role pretty much sums to helping the MH whenever it gets hard, and that's it.

Do you think this is fun for the Off-healer? Feeling useful 1/10 of the time? Does he feel secure in his spot knowing that the moment that the MH can handle it alone, he'll be promptly replaced by another DPS?

That's what happens to Off-tanks. We tank, very very little. It's the nature of the game and not being total dead-weights is what's keeping our sanity in check. I hated off-tanking back in 2.0, because it meant your role was largely irrelevant. Right now OTing is bearable, because I at least can pretend to be a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

One last thing, you mentioned a few times about WAR being thematically high on DPS.

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I chose to address this last. Do you think it makes sense that my giant Axe, Bloody Greatsword or Magical Energy Sword to be a gentle caress to the enemy? That the WEAPON that defines the job is actually a just a Parrying Stick? That entire questlines involving the use of our weapon are actually just flavor. Or even that an enemy will pay me attention when he realizes I'm poking him with a Toy Sword?

Because, in the world of Kaurie where tanks do paper cut damage, I might as well carry an Axe of Healing +1, and hit my allies with it to heal them when I'm not tanking to be marginally useful.

Just want to reply, I think you make a lot of great points. That said, I think that the condescending remarks and tone are highly unnecessary.

Regardless, we clearly have differing views on game design. Luckily for you, the design the developers are taking much more closely aligns with your preferences.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

As a NIN...WARs as a whole are horribly unreliable at keeping up Storm's Eye, so it's muscle memory a lot of times (and it's also our most reliable finisher if we're on the move or the boss is turning and we can't guarantee a positional since it has no positional requirement and has higher potency than both Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush if they aren't used from the proper angle). Diabolos isn't raidcore central or anything, but I've never had a static WAR I could trust to keep Storm's Eye up during a boss fight. It's actually incredibly frustrating. :(

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Most of FFlogs are raid parses. If you, as a NIN, keep putting Edge up during a raid with your static, you're bad. Your WAR should be keeping Eye up as close to 100% of the time as he can.

And yes, there are times where Dancing is more DPS than Aeolean or Crush, but they are very few and far between (A1S the room-AoE after Spaser goes out and there's bad Resin Bombs, A3S for the Hand, Adds in A1S and A4S...), and you should be trying to avoid using Dancing whenever you possibly can. My static has a NIN, we've discussed this to death

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Most of FFlogs are raid parses. If you, as a NIN, keep putting Edge up during a raid with your static, you're bad. Your WAR needs to have Eye up as much as close to 100% of the time as he can

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No, that's the thing—my WAR doesn't consistently keep Storm's Eye up, so after a year and a half of playing as a NIN with WARs who don't consistently keep it up, my muscle memory occasionally kicks in and I put it up by mistake. I don't keep it up 100% of the time, but it does happen—and sometimes, I make a conscious effort to put it up, if Storm's Eye is about to drop off and the WAR is currently going through a Butcher's Block animation, or if I know I won't be back in position for Aeolian before my GCD is ready (it's a DPS loss to wait to align a positional).

You can quit with the condescending tone. I don't know why so many people get their rocks off so hard being a jerk on these boards.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Just want to reply, I think you make a lot of great points. That said, I think that the condescending remarks and tone are highly unnecessary.

Regardless, we clearly have differing views on game design. Luckily for you, the design the developers are taking much more closely aligns with your preferences.

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If that, Im sorry. I hate when people pass opinions as arguments unless the nature is personal preference (This is not, we're talking game design). I actually did tone it down a little, if you can believe that,

Having said that, I actually don't like this. I like to tank. I don't like to be a pretend DPS. But I can see why it's needed and when it can be useful. It's a sour pill I take to be allowed to tank or even be allowed to do some things (Seriously, try getting into a Relic Farm/Pony Farm after the MT slot is taken, you won't go anywhere if you cant promise good DPS). Your proposal is taking one step forward and three steps back, and I really don't want to go back to the days of Ifrit/Titan runs.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

No, that's the thing—my WAR doesn't consistently keep Storm's Eye up, so after a year and a half of playing as a NIN with WARs who don't consistently keep it up, my muscle memory occasionally kicks in and I put it up by mistake. I don't keep it up 100% of the time, but it does happen—and sometimes, I make a conscious effort to put it up, if Storm's Eye is about to drop off and the WAR is currently going through a Butcher's Block animation, or if I know I won't be back in position for Aeolian before my GCD is ready (it's a DPS loss to wait to align a positional).

You can quit with the condescending tone. I don't know why so many people get their rocks off so hard being a jerk on these boards.

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First off, muscle memory is a bad excuse in raid; if I used it as an excuse in A4S we'd never have cleared with the stuns needed. Re-train yourself

Second, you're enabling these WAR (if what you say is true, I've had several NIN say my Eye is wearing off as an excuse for using Dancing, even when I just reapplied it), and need to tell the WAR to keep Eye up, or get rid of them; if they say something about needing to keep up their DPS with another combo, tell them that having Maim and Eye drop off is about a 30% DPS loss until they reapply them.

But yeah, it is bad for you to be using Dancing in a raid with a static if you have a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

If that, Im sorry. I hate when people pass opinions as arguments unless the nature is personal preference (This is not, we're talking game design). I actually did tone it down a little, if you can believe that,

Having said that, I actually don't like this. I like to tank. I don't like to be a pretend DPS. But I can see why it's needed and when it can be useful. It's a sour pill I take to be allowed to tank or even be allowed to do some things (Seriously, try getting into a Relic Farm/Pony Farm after the MT slot is taken, you won't go anywhere if you cant promise good DPS). Your proposal is taking one step forward and three steps back, and I really don't want to go back to the days of Ifrit/Titan runs.

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Indeed, and I wouldn't want to make the game less fun for a lot of people simply because I think it's less balanced (I always promote fun > balanced, and whether this is balanced or not is up to opinion). I would say that we are talking about personal preference of game design. Not every game is designed the same way, and some people prefer one way over another - in this sense, the nature is personal preference.

I think a compromise between your points and mine is to have a bigger gap with stance dancing. Perhaps leaving things roughly as they are but add in a damage reduction to defiance (similar to shield oath) as well as removing the ability to be in DPS stance while in Grit for DRK would go a long way to bringing things down. Tanks could still bring good DPS in DPS stance, thus OT/open world content wouldn't be affected.

I've just seen a great many parties where the DPS charts are Me > tank > dps > dps > tank > dps > heal > heal. I've seen this in Savage pugs as well as just general content. When I heal, it's not uncommon for me to see tank > dps > heal > dps. I am not sure if it's that the DPS rotation is much more simple for tanks than it is for DPS, or that tanks are generally played by better players.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

(This is not, we're talking game design)

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Even in terms of design, things are probably a bit out of line, at least for a game that's supposed to be a Trinity game. Tanks, while tanking, are currently pulling DPS that's pretty close to support DPS (about 85% of their output, from discussion earlier in the thread), while fulfilling the entire job of a separate role in the party that's not a DPS.

Meanwhile, BRDs/MCHs are giving up the same amount of DPS potential, relative to the "full" DPS for utility that isn't even necessary if everyone manages their resources properly and doesn't die. While the general tiered structure makes sense (primary DPS > support DPS > tank), the gaps are currently too narrow. An offtank doing 85% of a BRD's DPS wouldn't be such a bad thing, since they have the potential to offer another service to the party, the same way BRD/MCH have the potential to offer another service to the party.

The problem is ultimately that main tanks are hitting that 85% number, at the same time as they're offering the utility of being a tank. If that's fine for main tanks, it should honestly be fine for BRD/MCH to do their full DPS while offering support functions, too (i.e., Paeon/Ballad wouldn't have an additional damage penalty on top of them). Of course, the main thing at fault here is the content, but as mentioned previously, we can't really assess class balance in a vacuum (heck, witness PLD, which has a lot of theoretically nice utility, absolutely none of which has any notable application in the game right now).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I am not sure if it's that the DPS rotation is much more simple for tanks than it is for DPS, or that tanks are generally played by better players.

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I think this does play a factor. Tanks have very little in the way of oGCD stuff to manage, fewer timers/DoTs to worry about, and fewer buttons to press than melee do. Just as using melee as an example example, 11 of a DRK's 27 abilities are important for single-target DPS (12 if you count Dark Dance while MTing for Low Blow proc fishing), while 18 of a NIN's 27 are important for single-target DPS. MNKs are at 16 and DRG is at an astounding 21, for comparison. WARs are probably the most complex tank with 15 main buttons for single-target DPS, which makes them about on par with MNK (which is probably the least complex of the three melee—it just deals with the responsibility of Greased Lightning and all of that).

This is no doubt by design, of course, as tanks traditionally have other things to worry about which have historically prevented players from choosing that role, leading to bottlenecks in party formations. By simplifying their "rotational" demands, the barrier for entry is lowered, ultimately increasing the number of tanks in the game. (There's something similar at play with Healers in FFXIV). That's a good thing, but if the encounter balance, gear balance, and class balance isn't properly maintained, it can lead to other issues, like what we see with tanks in the game right now.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

need to tell the WAR to keep Eye up, or get rid of them

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If good WARs grew on trees, I would gladly do so, but unfortunately, they're in short supply on our server. Sometimes you have to work with the hand you've been dealt. If we didn't stick with this WAR and try to help him get better, we simply wouldn't be raiding at all.

We don't raid at a world-first level and I know that my muscle memory getting the best of me on occasion is an excuse, and it's something I work to get better at every time we step into raid. Unfortunately, since WARs are, again, rare on my Data Center, I don't get a lot of opportunities to play with them (I'm far more often paired with PLDs and DRKs in the DF, which is more opportunity for my muscle memory to remain ingrained), so the work is always a matter of continual improvement.

There's still absolutely no reason for you to be condescending.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

need to tell the WAR to keep Eye up, or get rid of them

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Just to chime on this, the actual best thing you can do is communicate. Despite what you may think, keeping SE up is not always a priority. The start of final phase in A3S or the final Mortal Revolution for example are places where you only get one combo off and you want it to be SP, so having the NIN do DE there would benefit everybody.

I personally tell him when I'm probably gonna let SE fall off one or two GCD's. It usually only happens when I have to do a Swap, be away from the boss, or need to do SP and have no time for the SE, but they do happen and expecting 100% uptime is unrealistic.

Edit: To answer the above post

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The problem is ultimately that main tanks are hitting that 85% number, at the same time as they're offering the utility of being a tank.

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In my experience, parses where the "Main Tank" is getting close to the DPS are fights where the actual fight mechancis are enabling this. Oppresor is a good example: Tanks have near 100% uptime on the boss, while DPS typically have to deal with the adds (And good DPS often have to hold back). The DPS number isn't telling you the whole picture: had the tank dealt with this mechanics his numbers would be similarly lower.

Also, a tank competing with a BRD for the fourth slot isn't a worrying thing. A BRD is giving up DPS to support, a Tank in offense stance is giving up Tankiness for DPS. Combined, the effect being close should be obvious (BRD losing DPS, Tank gaining DPS). NIN is pretty much in the same boat and the one people are often keen to talk about, because its true damage is not shown (It's often spread among party members).

And then there's comparison to DPS that aren't trading anything to DPS. Compare the top BLM/DRG/MNK to the top non-tanking (IE Full damage) WAR and you'll be looking at numebrs closer to 74%. The best MT tank I've seen barely scratcehs 71% of the top DPS in fflogs, on a fight that benefits the Tank.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

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http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/upload...tizen-Kane.gif

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Originally Posted by Kyros

In my experience, parses where the "Main Tank" is getting close to the DPS are fights where the actual fight mechancis are enabling this.

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I acknowledged this in my post actually:

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Of course, the main thing at fault here is the content, but as mentioned previously, we can't really assess class balance in a vacuum (heck, witness PLD, which has a lot of theoretically nice utility, absolutely none of which has any notable application in the game right now).

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As I've said in a couple different ways in the thread, I don't necessarily thank tank's DPS potential needs to be reduced, so much as the content needs to be designed in a way that their potential is reduced as much as everyone else's potential is by fight mechanics and the like. DPS on Oppressor lose uptime on the boss for adds and baiting Resin, as you mentioned, and tanks don't. The design that the developers were aiming for is that tanks lose DPS by being in tank stance (and also wearing VIT accessories) rather than because of mechanics, but for reasons we'll never know, they completely boned that. It's ultimately the encounter (and item) balance that's the largest part of the tank DPS problem, with some improper balancing of skills contributing to a small degree (but only mainly in the differences between the three tanks, since PLD is noticeably weaker than the other two).

When it comes to how tanks stack up against the other DPS, I generally don't have much issue. I've also mentioned that the crux of it for me—why it's such a problem—centers around BRD/MCH's place on the metaphorical totem pole. You can deal with the problem in several ways, my personal choice for which is to buff BRD/MCH because buffs are good in the eyes of the community and nerfs are doubleplus ungood, in general.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

What MMO is this?

All of the MMOs I've ever played (from EverQuest 1 in 2000 to Lineage 2 to WoW to SWTOR to tons of other no names kmmos) this has never been true?

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WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps. In FFXI most of the time tanks were doing not much damage at all. Most of the mmos I played had tanks focus on getting more hp or damage mitigation and not dps.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps

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If DPS do 150k, and tanks did 25k in this game.

I would have a Monk Tanking.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If DPS do 150k, and tanks did 25k in this game.

I would have a Monk Tanking.

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Well in that game you are dead in 1-2 hits max if you pull the boss off a tank they pretty much make it impossible for someone who is not a tank to tank.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Well in that game you are dead in 1-2 hits max if you pull the boss off a tank they pretty much make it impossible for someone who is not a tank to tank.

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Who ever said WoW was a good, fun game?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Well in that game you are dead in 1-2 hits max if you pull the boss off a tank they pretty much make it impossible for someone who is not a tank to tank.

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Isn't WoW plagued with the "2 tanks for 40-people raid" problem? Seems like poor design to me.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps. In FFXI most of the time tanks were doing not much damage at all. Most of the mmos I played had tanks focus on getting more hp or damage mitigation and not dps.

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This does not seem to be true from what world of logs says about tank dps and dps dps on mythic raid tiers?

Like...not at all?

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Originally Posted by Kyros

Isn't WoW plagued with the "2 tanks for 40-people raid" problem? Seems like poor design to me.

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That was a long time ago, even before the first expansion came out on WoW.
Nowadays it is more 10/25 people, with 2 or 3 tanks in the raid.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

WoW since you mentioned it, tanks do like 20-25k dps, dps do 100-120k dps. In FFXI most of the time tanks were doing not much damage at all. Most of the mmos I played had tanks focus on getting more hp or damage mitigation and not dps.

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I don't know how it's now, but I think it was in Pandaria when main tanks could do great damage and maybe even out damage dps classes in some fights because of how their mechanics worked. The more you took damage, the more you also dished out. It is true, though, that this is the first MMO I've played where everyone focuses getting higher DPS regardless of their job.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In other MMOs tanks do around 20%-25% of the damage of what a DPS can do so their damage is really irrelevant. FFXIV is the first MMO I seen where tanks actually can do a lot of damage but that was achieved with using STR acc which the devs didn't plan for. If you were full fending and tank stance it actually is about the same as other mmos with that 25% of what a dps can do.

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From what I can tell, the intended values were closer to 65% to 70% in DpS stance and about 48% to 50% in tank stance. 30% more STR than intended and a few unintended combos (*cough*Triple Berserk Fell Cleave *cough*) are what pushed the numbers up to 80%/90%.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I don't know how it's now, but I think it was in Pandaria when main tanks could do great damage and maybe even out damage dps classes in some fights because of how their mechanics worked. The more you took damage, the more you also dished out. It is true, though, that this is the first MMO I've played where everyone focuses getting higher DPS regardless of their job.

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On LFR, the first fight of the second wing of the Mantid raid, tanks could go and hit over 1 million DPS while normal DPS were around 200k or less if they took the boss and all the adds, then spammed AoE attacks. It was insane.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Both strength and vitality will increase damage. So to make that value fair in the future tank jewelry would have to have both to be a 1 for 1 value in damage. THAT would be IMBALANCED now of course. However, in the future it would need to be done.

It would mean though every expansion tank's damage will go down automatically by 15-20%.

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If Vit gets more value than Str then in the future we dont even need to worry about loosing dmg. Also I believe in the Live Letter thay said Str will be weaker than Str. So it will probably be something like from str x5 Vit x 0 to Str x2 and Vit x 3. That would make tanks slightly just slightly stronger than a tank in full slaying accesories is now.

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Originally Posted by Ronyx

If Vit gets more value than Str then in the future we dont even need to worry about loosing dmg. Also I believe in the Live Letter thay said Str will be weaker than Str. So it will probably be something like from str x5 Vit x 0 to Str x2 and Vit x 3. That would make tanks slightly just slightly stronger than a tank in full slaying accesories is now.

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Basically with the upcoming change... Even if VIT = STR in damage value. Being in VIT accessories is simply better as it would ALSO provide the HP cushion.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The issue is that WAR DPS is through the roof (as is DRK, and PLD is too high).

Single target
MNK 100%
NIN 98%
DRG 96%
BLM 95%
SMN 90%
BRD 80% (depending on song use, without song use numbers would be higher)
MCH 80% (depending on turret use, without support use numbers would be higher)
WAR 45%
DRK 40%
PLD 35%
SCH 15%
WHM/AST 10%

AoE
SMN 100%
BLM 95%
MNK 80%
BRD 90%
MCH 90%
DRG 75%
NIN 70%
WAR 20%
DRK 15%
PLD 10%
SCH 20%
WHM 15%
AST 10%

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If these were the numbers for tanks, I GUARANTEE you that none of the tanks will be able to hold hate even with all of the Unleashes and Flashes and Overpowers and Steel Cyclones. We would be useless.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

If these were the numbers for tanks, I GUARANTEE you that none of the tanks will be able to hold hate even with all of the Unleashes and Flashes and Overpowers and Steel Cyclones. We would be useless.

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Heh there have been plenty of great arguments against those numbers, and I agreed that it may be better to increase it some. That said, the assumption (I thought obviously) was that enmity generation would be adjusted with the new damage numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

5. BLM loses enochian
6. Melee lose positionals
7. Parsers are added
8. Raids (and dungeons?) add CC importance
9. Gathering had little barrier to entry
10. Crafting was made simplistic

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This entire list scares me...Housing should be free? Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons?
Adding Parsers will totally shun players who are trying to learn their class.
Remove Mindless Grind? You mean removing one of the key parts of what defines an MMO?
Melee losing positionals? Ya sure! lets just mash buttons and make all DPS boring as all get out.
Healer damage should NEVER be nerfed. If that were the case, They we would never ever see a lvl 60 WHM/SCH/AST because they can't dps their own solo quest content.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

This entire list scares me...Housing should be free? Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons?

Adding Parsers will totally shun players who are trying to learn their class.
Remove Mindless Grind? You mean removing one of the key parts of what defines an MMO?
Melee losing positionals? Ya sure! lets just mash buttons and make all DPS boring as all get out.
Healer damage should NEVER be nerfed. If that were the case, They we would never ever see a lvl 60 WHM/SCH/AST because they can't dps their own solo quest content.

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I am not sure if you've played many other MMO's, but I've played plenty where positionals are not part of the skills - and the combat is not just a random button mash fest.

Free housing was given in Wildstar and imo the housing was one of the best features of Wildstar. I'd recommend checking it out.

I disagree about the parsers shunning players, but ultimately, we could have a 200 page argument about it and at the end I'd still feel the same way I do now and you'd still feel the same way you do now. So let's just preemptively agree to disagree.

Healers could have specs in the way that every other MMO works so that you can DPS in the open world and heal in grouped content.

I think mindless grinds are not great game design and content could be done in better ways.

PS: Care to elaborate on how you are applying tradgedy of the commons to this situation?



EDIT Forum count hit

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

As it stands, housing is in fair abundance depending on what server you are on. If housing were made free, everyone would want a house of their own. They would keep a lock and key on all of the Mansion level houses. People who do not play as often would own 5 different houses in their area and players searching for a house for their FC will have no way of contacting them IRL. Many people have more than 1 mansion in the game, and yet, in my opinion, they don't deserve it. We also can't forget server load on the houses that have been taken. Once someone gets rid of the house they owned, there will be 500 other players waiting at their front door to take it. Housing should be earned by a group of people willing to save up for one and call it their own. It is also a mark that you leave on the server as a Free Company that could be well known.

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I think you misunderstood my housing request. I want it like Wildstar where everyone is given 1 housing plot. You don't buy them, you don't sell them, you don't own more than one, there are no limited number of plots available. Each character gets 1 period.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

PS: Care to elaborate on how you are applying tradgedy of the commons to this situation?

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As it stands, housing is in fair abundance depending on what server you are on. If housing were made free, everyone would want a house of their own. They would keep a lock and key on all of the Mansion level houses. People who do not play as often would own 5 different houses in their area and players searching for a house for their FC will have no way of contacting them IRL. Many people have more than 1 mansion in the game, and yet, in my opinion, they don't deserve it. We also can't forget server load on the houses that have been taken. Once someone gets rid of the house they owned, there will be 500 other players waiting at their front door to take it. Housing should be earned by a group of people willing to save up for one and call it their own. It is also a mark that you leave on the server as a Free Company that could be well known.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

This entire list scares me...Housing should be free? Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons?
Adding Parsers will totally shun players who are trying to learn their class.
Remove Mindless Grind? You mean removing one of the key parts of what defines an MMO?
Melee losing positionals? Ya sure! lets just mash buttons and make all DPS boring as all get out.
Healer damage should NEVER be nerfed. If that were the case, They we would never ever see a lvl 60 WHM/SCH/AST because they can't dps their own solo quest content.

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How would adding a parser shun a player who is trying to learn their class? Having a parser would provide players with hard numbers so they could know how well they were or were not doing with their class, which means you know when you've started improving.

Removing anything mindless sounds good to me, whether or not its part of traditional MMO structure.

I agree healers should keep their DPS abilities and potential.

I don't necessarily care about housing as I am one of the haves atm, my fc has a mansion in Mist. Great place.

Positionals are fun but if you were to ask me what I loved about Dragoon or playing melee I wouldn't put positionals anywhere on my top list of reasons. In fact, they can be annoying in most situations, and positionals don't detract from mindless buttonmashing.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

How would adding a parser shun a player who is trying to learn their class? Having a parser would provide players with hard numbers so they could know how well they were or were not doing with their class, which means you know when you've started improving.

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Once parsers are allowed in game players don't CARE about the reason for low DPS, even if the player is trying to improve. It becomes "Have this arbitrary requirement before joining or get lost" The way things are now players aren't allowd to do that, which is good.

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Originally Posted by Lego3400

Once parsers are allowed in game players don't CARE about the reason for low DPS, even if the player is trying to improve. It becomes "Have this arbitrary requirement before joining or get lost" The way things are now players aren't allowd to do that, which is good.

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Just having an ingame parser does not allow that behavior, however, and the people who are going to act like that already do in most cases. It seems wrong to deny a great tool for improvement to the masses just because of the fear a few people who are already bullies will be bullies with it.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

If these were the numbers for tanks, I GUARANTEE you that none of the tanks will be able to hold hate even with all of the Unleashes and Flashes and Overpowers and Steel Cyclones. We would be useless.

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Threat multipliers. How do you think tanks even hold hate right now with their dps being inferior to dps jobs ? Holding hate is a non issue. Nerf Tank damage by 90%, increase their hate generation tenfold, and here you go, you have the exact same hate generation with only 10% their current damage.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

Adding Parsers will totally shun players who are trying to learn their class.

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Oh yeah sure. Because people learning their class can't speak at all to tell it, or even ask for advice. God forbid people could be social in a MMO.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

Healer damage should NEVER be nerfed. If that were the case, They we would never ever see a lvl 60 WHM/SCH/AST because they can't dps their own solo quest content.

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douple dipping much ? What happened to be in a MMO ? you know, playing with others ? FFxiv went down the "all solo" non-sensical road because it fits the current market, but you could perfectly force people to group to do content. Make damage enough to wreck non-tank jobs, and here you go, forced to group tanks and healers. Low damage for tanks ensure dps get their place in a group too. Oh, isn't that how a trinity MMO is supposed to work ? damn.

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Originally Posted by Lego3400

Once parsers are allowed in game players don't CARE about the reason for low DPS, even if the player is trying to improve. It becomes "Have this arbitrary requirement before joining or get lost" The way things are now players aren't allowd to do that, which is good.

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People are already using parser numbers to boot people not fitting their taste, for example in Alexander normal farm for relic. Heck, they even announce it in chat, and people ask for those numbers, for personnal improvement among other reasons.
Every serious player on a PC has or has had a parser. Or know someone using one. PS3/4 just can't use them, but I regularly see people searching for someone to parse them because of that.

In short, allowing parsers now would change nothing to the way the game works except 2 things :
=> PS3/4 would have their own official parser available, so they wouldn't have to rely on PC players to know how they improved
=> we would finally be able to call out really bad players without getting banned because they can't stand the fact that they aren't well performing and report you for harassment no matter how nicely you tried to tell them.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

douple dipping much ? What happened to be in a MMO ? you know, playing with others ? FFxiv went down the "all solo" non-sensical road because it fits the current market, but you could perfectly force people to group to do content. Make damage enough to wreck non-tank jobs, and here you go, forced to group tanks and healers. Low damage for tanks ensure dps get their place in a group too. Oh, isn't that how a trinity MMO is supposed to work ? damn.

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I don't appreciate the condescending tone. I don't have anything against parsers when they are used constructively.

I don't know what you mean by people not being social. People share numbers all the time, but when parsing is used negatively, it's a problem.

Each job in FFXIV is all about versatility in their role. This is why it takes months to create a new class. I still stand by the fact that nerfing healer dps is a bad idea. It removes versatility to a party composition including tanks.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

I don't appreciate the condescending tone

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Eh the post he was responded to was rather condescending in tone (toward me).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

As it stands, housing is in fair abundance depending on what server you are on. If housing were made free, everyone would want a house of their own. They would keep a lock and key on all of the Mansion level houses. People who do not play as often would own 5 different houses in their area and players searching for a house for their FC will have no way of contacting them IRL. Many people have more than 1 mansion in the game, and yet, in my opinion, they don't deserve it. We also can't forget server load on the houses that have been taken. Once someone gets rid of the house they owned, there will be 500 other players waiting at their front door to take it. Housing should be earned by a group of people willing to save up for one and call it their own. It is also a mark that you leave on the server as a Free Company that could be well known.

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I think you misunderstood my housing request. I want it like Wildstar where everyone is given 1 housing plot. You don't buy them, you don't sell them, you don't own more than one, there are no limited number of plots available. Each character gets 1 period.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

I don't appreciate the condescending tone.

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Sorry about that. Stress building up irl got the better out of me.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

I don't know what you mean by people not being social. People share numbers all the time, but when parsing is used negatively, it's a problem.

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It's a fact that people aren't really being social if they don't need to. Especially on FFxiv or other modern days MMO, because there isn't any reason to be social any more than having a fixed group of 8 people for a single raid. But that's an other problem.
Thing is, most MMO before were forcing you to group early on to even survive the open world ("solo" content)
FFxiv ? not so much.

There is a lot more going behind it than just sharing numbers.

As for healer dps, I personnally like it as long as it is not imposed as a clear condition (Alexander Gordias Savage) in content.

eh idc if tanks do start hitting lower numbers, I'm really tired of noob tanks building strength then wondering why they get one shot in end game content

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Originally Posted by stanrir

eh idc if tanks do start hitting lower numbers, I'm really tired of noob tanks building strength then wondering why they get one shot in end game content

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And then they begin screaming "NO HEALZZ" on party chat. Well boy, I can't heal something that hits you harder than your HP pool.