When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

*Passes Tiggy a silver bullet*

Sorry OP, your thread got hijacked ^^;.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

In another thread you literally called me a clear seller. You can't keep saying these things acting like you aren't accusing people with your generalizations. ...

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Go find that post. I only said said you like to play devil's advocate for the clear sellers. And time and time again you've shown you want to be on the side of clear sellers, it does NOT matter if you sold clears or not.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

....There is a right and a wrong place for your soapbox...

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Based on the vehement angry reaction to a simple message of inclusiveness, where I am only asking people try to empathize and player together and help each other out, I would say this is very much the right place. Because seeing how all the verbal abuse is being hurled at new and newer players and making up false accusations about them, this is the very place I need to set the record straight. And this really a simple thing, it is NO OK to insult other players.

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Yep, some dud of a silver bullet.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

*Passes Tiggy a silver bullet*..

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

... For starters, you can start with shedding the shameless clear seller attitude ....

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And this was clearly stated indicating the position and flawed ethics:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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While I've never been a part of a sold run I definitely understand where they come from. ... If they put a price on their time and someone is willing to pay it then it's non of your business what so ever..

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Making false representation about stuff I said and at the same time pretending to forget what was written. Sorry the evidence is there plain as day to see.

Ghishlain, thanks I think that shows what I'm talking about nicely.

Nyaruko, make your own thread. I will no longer engage you here as this is entirely off topic for this thread. If you want to talk about this and make a point of it so badly then make a thread where that is the actual topic.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Make your own thread. I will no longer engage you here.

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You can NOT find that post. So I've never said you are a clear seller. The people who are clear sellers proudly and shameless say so themselves. I do NOT need to edit or go out of my way to say such obvious things.

The thing is, it not the experienced raiders the need defending. They got all the tools, access, etc. to do whatever they wish. It is the new, newer, returning, latecomer players that need opportunity to learn to and progress. It is NOT OK to be dissing them. If you can help them learn and wipe 10 times with them then do that, if you can do more then that is even better. If you tire of it, vote abandon and move on, but do NOT use the forums to verbally abuse them.

You told me..

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

For starters, you can start with shedding the shameless clear seller attitude like this:

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Then quote BobtheBlackMage as if it was something I said.

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Originally Posted by BobtheBlackMage

If someone is willing to pay as an incentive to take them through content, I'm willing to make the exchange.

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You did what you did and people saw you do it. Stop it. Go make your own thread to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by BobtheBlackMage

If you can help them learn and wipe 10 times with them then do that, if you can do more then that is even better. If you tire of it, vote abandon and move on, but do NOT use the forums to verbally abuse them.

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A) I've never vote abandoned or quit on a group.
B) I help people learn fights all the time normally up until the timer runs out.
C) I've NEVER verbally abused someone about their progress either on this forum or in game.

Stop your accusations and generalizations. You don't know me. You don't know all raiders. Stop it.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Then quote BobtheBlackMage as if it was something I said.

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Because it sounds almost exactly like what you said:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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While I've never been a part of a sold run I definitely understand where they come from. ... If they put a price on their time and someone is willing to pay it then it's non of your business what so ever..

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Stop your accusations and generalizations. ..

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There is no accusation. I am only stating what I observer and the generalizations derived from it. You want to tell me that there are no threads and posts disparaging new players, newbies, other players they like to label as "bad"? I wouldn't even want to call any players bad. I would have to be deliberatley blind to not see those. If the generalization do NOT apply to you, then it does NOT, you are not part of the generalization, but strangely enough you want to throw your lot in with them. But I am not going stop fending off the unfair accusations, generalizations, and verbal abuse being directed at the vast majority of the players.

Example from this thread alone, from a well known clear seller:

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You failed at networking with competent players.

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Implying that 99% of the player base who haven't touched FCoB is incompetent and all our friends are equally so. Why should the rest of us have to take insults like this in silence?

Understanding why someone does something and the reasoning behind it , and suggesting you have no business telling people what to do is not the same as what Bob said. Any reasonable person, and even those in that thread, can understand that. Striving for understanding of something does not mean you inherit the qualities of it. Believing that you don't have a right to tell anyone how to play doesn't make me instantly supportive of the actions either. I simply think you should mind your own business and leave people alone. Those clear sellers don't prevent anyone from working on the turns. They don't stop anyone from grabbing friends, queuing up, and working on it until they get a win. If you want to down T5 so bad then people should spent less time fuming about clear sellers and more time in T5 working on it. There are not enough people in the game for clear sellers to prohibit you from completing this content. The only thing preventing people (in no specific importance or order) is some combination of lack of time, lack of dedication dedication, and finding 7 competent people to assist you.

I am a raider. You generalize actions to all raiders, therefore you mean me, all the other nice raiders I know, and more. It doesn't matter if your specific statement doesn't represent me for me to find it offensive because it targets raiders which is a group I most definitely identify with. That's no different than making a blanket racist statement and then looking over at your friend who is a member of that race and saying "sorry, I didn't mean you though bro." It's still greatly offensive. The real solution would be for you to fix your rhetoric and to stop referring to all raiders collectively. Say "Some of the more malicious raiders" instead of the collective "raiders" or something to that effect. It's not that hard to prevent yourself from being offensive to an overly large group of people that don't all represent the specific demographic you're talking about. The way you're doing it is no better than racism. Showing prejudice and disdain for an entire group of people based on the actions and behaviors from a subset of them.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Implying that 99% of the player base who haven't touched FCoB is incompetent and all our friends are equally so. Why should the rest of us have to take insults like this in silence?

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Despite how ridiculously out of context that quote is, that player who said it doesn't represent all raiders. A point I've been trying to get across to you from the beginning. Pointing out any one bad player doesn't make the whole group bad just as no good player makes the whole group good. Your quote only makes your argument look more petty and short sighted.

Even despite that specific example the advice to "Make more friends" and "become a member of more communities" is sound. It's good advice for any new player to any MMO in existence, and will lead to wins with enough determination.

*drops mic and walks out*

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

.... That's no different than making a blanket racist statement and then looking over at your friend who is a member of that race and saying "sorry, I didn't mean you though bro." It's still greatly offensive. ...

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I don't make racist remarks or off-color jokes ever. I am the one odd minority in group setting more often than not given the current existing U.S. demographics. And I know that one does NOT make the group.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Pointing out any one bad player doesn't make the whole group bad just as no good player makes the whole group good.

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But that doesn't mean you let those off-color jokes slip and let the norm continue as it is. That is why you call out the one that behaving badly. But somehow that gets turned into generalization? Fact is this kind of hatred and contempt for new/newer players the so called "need to get good" is all too common on these forums. If it feels like generalization, is because by the de facto environment that exist too much of this is going on already, and this need correcting.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick.

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I think this just kinda solidifies the mounting and damning evidence of...silliness, that follows you. While I won't disagree that there probably is one or two FCs might be doing it with RMTs, cutting a bloody swathe and accusing all clear sellers of illegal RMT activity in the game is quite impressive.

...that seems quite on par for course for you, honestly.

And if you want further evidence of hypocrisy:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I do NOT go up to tell them to shut up even if I don't agree with them all the time.

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Funny, you seem to want go to all the clear sellers and shut them up, claiming they're on PF 24/7, etc.

...and yes, I am intentionally taking that one statement completely outta context. Annoying, isn't it? ~.^

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Again, sorry for massive derail OP/

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=5

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

... evidence of hypocrisy:
Funny, you seem to want go to all the clear sellers and shut them up, claiming they're on PF 24/7, etc.
...

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I actually never ever demanded that they shut up. So there is no hypocrisy there. I don't have to like their advertising, and I will definitely call them out on these forums when they are insulting everyone else, but free speech rights apply to them as well. And just because you can't find evidence of their connection to RMT, does NOT mean it does not exist. And if you can NOT imagine it, that just means like the tunnel vision and the limited scope you choose to see.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And just because you can't find evidence of their connection to RMT, does NOT mean it does not exist. And if you can NOT imagine it, that just means like the tunnel vision and the limited scope you choose to see.

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*COUGHS*

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

While I won't disagree that there probably is one or two FCs might be doing it with RMTs

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Clearly, I have limited scope and tunnel vision since you are ONCE AGAIN generalizing someone else, as you are wont to do.

Emphasis BTW:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And if you can NOT imagine it, that just means like the tunnel vision and the limited scope you choose to see.

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I suggest you look in a mirror.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I actually never ever demanded that they shut up. So there is no hypocrisy there.

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No, you would just like to see them ALL BURN in a fire.

...yes, I can broadly generalize too! =D

BTW, as someone rightfully pointed out in a different post.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Just ignore. Seriously, stop caring about what one guy the majority of people disagree with says in response to you. Not having the last word isn't equivalent to conceding.

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It has been a pleasure, dear Ms. NayarukoW, but my time for fun is now at an end.

It was a pleasure, I shall see you in the next thread for some more inane banter!

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And just because you can't find evidence of their connection to RMT, does NOT mean it does not exist. And if you can NOT imagine it, that just means like the tunnel vision and the limited scope you choose to see.

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Absence of evidence is not evidence to the contrary. That's the "Arguement from Ignorance" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ce_of_evidence

It can certainly be frustrating at times. I'm someone who is just starting on SCOB myself and some of the people have lately been downright rotten. Any party that I've been in, in the past few weeks have been started by me as I felt that it was the only way to avoid this. I create a party usually with a friend or two and clearly make sure in my description that everything is noted that it is a learning party but some of the people ugh.

I can only speak for myself but on my server but the population seems to be really hurting right now and finding parties for so much of the content is awful and sometimes can be non existent, even hunts for most of the day are dead. This leads to experienced players who want to do this content joining our learning parties and throwing tantrums making the whole thing fun for no one and there is nothing worse then making good progress only to have someone rage quit and completely ruin the momentum the party had.

This has been the typical cycle for this game though and it will continue. The lockouts create a huge gap and will continue to do so. Sadly when there are parties a good majority of the time the people are pretty damn ignorant so why bother. I've been working on putting together a static and we are 5/8 so hopefully soon we can get in there without worrying about this kind of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

...No, you would just like to see them ALL BURN in a fire.

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The thought sounds fun for a second, but then not really. They are still people and it is still a game. Perhaps if Titan would keep their characters gaol-ed for 24 hours for every offense.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Absence of evidence is not evidence to the contrary. That's the "Arguement from Ignorance" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ce_of_evidence

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Agreed. Exacatly, so it is pleading ignorance of the possible connection between RMT and clear sellers. Just like cigarette companies pleaded for the longest time that they had NO evidence of smoking and addiction.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Exacatly, so it is pleading ignorance of the possible connection between RMT and clear sellers. Just like cigarette companies pleaded for the longest time that they had NO evidence of smoking and addiction.

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It doesn't prove anything except that you like conspiracies. Seems like a good example of a Furtive Fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furtive_fallacy

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Originally Posted by alimdia

everyone would just join the 'hardcore' queue and eventually casuals will join hardcore queue too

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I wouldn't, not ever.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

It doesn't prove anything except that you like conspiracies.

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You don't need conspiracy. The desire to turn gil in real dollars is only natural. Human nature at work here. If you generate a lot of gil from clear sells, why would there be no temptation?

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

You don't need conspiracy. The desire to turn gil in real dollars is only natural. Human nature at work here. If you generate a lot of gil from clear sells, why would there be no temptation?

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The conspiracy is assuming that it must be happening regardless of the absence of evidence. The justification for thinking it's possible is certainly true since humans are fairly selfish creatures, but the fact remains you don't know that a single RMT or Clear seller does this for sure. Not one. Sure, someone out there may be doing it, but the fact you go on and on about it like it must be happening even without a shred of evidence is why I say you seem to like conspiracies.

You don't know it's happening. You've never seen it happen. Continuing to bring it up doesn't prove anything or help your argument at all. Nor does it change a single thing about players helping or not helping in T5 and beyond and the level of patience they have for new players. It's completely 100% off topic. It's a distraction from even your own argument, and from the OPs original meaning for this thread. If you really want to talk about these things then go start a new thread and write a big wall of text rant there. If people want to engage in this conversation they will choose to do so.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

... It's completely 100% off topic. It's a distraction from even your own argument, and from the OPs original meaning for this thread.....

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You have a clear seller devil's advocate to thank for derailing this. See this is where is started:

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Selling runs....

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BTW the clear sellers are not 100% unrelated. They are just a tiny but clear visible piece of a large iceberg. The fact remains that I see learning PF go unfilled for extended time while clear sellers on the PF at the same time, along with gil seller tell spams and friend requests. There is more than just coincidence going on here.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

BTW the clear sellers are not 100% unrelated. They are just a tiny but clear visible piece of a large iceberg.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Those clear sellers don't prevent anyone from working on the turns. They don't stop anyone from grabbing friends, queuing up, and working on it until they get a win. If you want to down T5 so bad then people should spent less time fuming about clear sellers and more time in T5 working on it. There are not enough people in the game for clear sellers to prohibit you from completing this content.*

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Those people selling clears are such a small amount of the total player population that it's a horrific scapegoat to blame them for the lack of progress. Period. This, is a red herring. It would seem relevant but the realistic effect on the community in terms of preventing T5 wins is minuscule to non-existent and is a distraction from the point.

Make your own thread.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

You have a clear seller devil's advocate to thank for derailing this. See this is where is started:

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Apparently the words 'clear selling' appearing anywhere in a thread are the bat signal and demand complete derailment to show us the evils around us lest we fall prey to the dark sins of the clear RMT ring. Thank you for saving us all from being hypnotized into RMT because 1 post outta 14 pages mentioned those 2 words.

As for the op, the only thing you can do is try to be respectful with the message. Some people cannot accept any form of criticism no matter how it is presented and that is on them. But it is on you to deliver the message in as tasteful and respectfully a manner as is reasonable. After that balls in their court. Don't stress to much about it. We can't prevent everyone from ever being offended. Only try to minimize it through presentation.

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Originally Posted by Aana

As for the op, the only thing you can do is try to be respectful with the message. Some people cannot accept any form of criticism no matter how it is presented and that is on them. But it is on you to deliver the message in as tasteful and respectfully a manner as is reasonable. After that balls in their court. Don't stress to much about it. We can't prevent everyone from ever being offended. Only try to minimize it through presentation.

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100% agreed. There are some people who either can't take or don't want criticism. One of my friends, the nicest kindest woman I know in this game, tried suggesting to a tank in a dungeon to use flash in his rotation to help keep the adds from running to her on BLM. He just yells out "Don't tell me how to play!" and rage quits on her in the dungeon. No matter how polite you are there are some people that will still turn violent about it. People have to want help themselves or there isn't really anything you can do for them, or as they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Really all this pretense at false self-indignation. No one is accusing your of anything, yet you take it so personally, which means you are unable to see thing objectively and from a bigger picture.

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Your picture is too big. I'm seeing it everywhere and I'd like to opt out of your ad spam. That's allowed right?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

... That's allowed right?

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You are under no obligation read anything you don't like on the these forums. But I am not spamming ads. I just advocating for a very simple thing. The bottom line is simple that I encourage people play nice together and help each other. Is that really so wrong? No one is being attacked by that.

Well after spending some time just scanning the forums and thinking about playing FFXIV, I decided to stop playing. WIth other threads about the trinity system, all I see for my character is logging in and waiting for DF to pop to get seals. When the events pop, I am still finding the same arguement coming up on gear and experienced players.

I am not saying my time was wasted, I really did enjoy the times and exploring a new world, I might just wait til the expansion comes out to decide to come back or not.

[Excalibur:Schizm Gallantry] Peace Out! <(O.o)>

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I agree with everything you said but these two points. You assume there are only two kinds of people, and that those with T5 wins all don't have empathy for those without. That is false. There are many people with wins that do want others to get wins and to move to harder content. That has been largely my point in this entire thread. It's not black and white. It's not us or them. It's a large community of complex individuals and it is a disservice to lump them all into a Have or Have Not beaten T5 group, even more of a disservice to then equate traits to those people solely based on their T5 status. The only thing that separates that kind of attitude from things like racism is that we are talking about personality traits and abilities as opposed to the color of ones skin. It's still a prejudice based on something as arbitrary as beating a single boss.

Are there people who have the wins that don't help others? Sure, but the opposite is true to. There are people with wins that do help others.

Are there people who don't have wins that try really hard? Sure, but there are also those who expect carries and get nasty when people refuse.

Human beings are far more complex animals than just black and white answers, and people from both sides of the argument could stand to comprehend that a little better. The primary reason this is so polarized an issue is because some people from the "We need more help in T5" camp seem to refuse to acknowledge that all raiders aren't bad people and that some do help, and because some people on the raider side refuse to acknowledge some people looking for T5 aren't there for hand outs.

More understanding could come from both sides.

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One thing that I am sure was missing in context was that I was talking about the two sides of this argument in this thread, not "There are elitists who have cleared T5 and there are lazy people who have not cleared T5".

People who want Coil to be easier so that they can move on to more contemporary content are usually the people from Group A who feel they have been pummeled into the ground and lack the mental fortitude to deal with it. Not always, but usually. The people who want Coil to stay exactly as it is and expect the players to make up the differences with the resources they've got are usually the people from Group B, who were able to overcome those difficulties with T5, either through skill, perseverance, or good fortune. Not always, but usually.

I'm not painting a black-and-white picture that says that no one who has ever cleared T5 will ever want to help. Or, at least, that is not my intention. My intention with my post was to help one side of this very polarizing argument understand the other and vice-versa and clearly I didn't emphasize that fact hard enough in my post that it was all about the very polarizing argument in this very thread and not separating groups of people based on T5 completion status.