Myth Message being used to excluded players

I do find it interesting that at the beginning these messages were in the game. Then they were removed maybe for abuse reasons, then recently got added back into the game.

As some in the thread have stated, the intention behind displaying the bonus message at the start of a duty was to motivate and incentivize experienced players to assist those who may be inexperienced.

While there may be players with malicious intentions on rare occasions, there are no plans to make adjustments to the display of the bonus message at this time. Please keep in mind that when it comes to party finder groups, the player who created the party can set up whatever rules they desire, and they are free to enforce those rules. However, with that said, a player who is being abusive regarding the bonus messaging, or who is kicking out newcomers in a derogatory manner, is in violation of the service agreement. Should you witness such an incident, please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Please keep in mind that when it comes to party finder groups, the player who created the party can set up whatever rules they desire, and they are free to enforce those rules. However, with that said, a player who is being abusive regarding the bonus messaging, or who is kicking out newcomers in a derogatory manner, is in violation of the service agreement. Should you witness such an incident, please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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That sounds all good but the standard GM report to a vote kick is that once a dispute occurs, the GMs do not get involved. I posted about it before, story and evidence too. It wasn't a PF group and nothing was done about the abuse I received as it was standard procedure to let it go after a dispute occurs.

I think there should be an option to exclude players from Farm Groups, after clearing it ten times you gain the option to add that as a pre-req in PF.
I find that alot of people want to be carried. They haven't read anything on the fight or watched a video. Then when you try to help explainsuggest, since I am experienced, the new players begin to troll you. This is not always the case but I would say 1 person in 20, will actually want to help clear the content.

Merit System
I understand that new players need clears but there should be an option in DF to que up with the expectation of helping newer players, maybe add an additional bonus? Like a Merit Point system, so many Merit Points gain you a special minion or rare piece of gear or hairstyle. What is the insentive now? Extra 'nerfed' soildery points? There is no real incenstive for experienced players to want to help the new guys. And the new guys could rate the overall experience of the 'Coach'. Helpful? Useless? Rager?

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

While there may be players with malicious intentions on rare occasions...Should you witness such an incident, please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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That's where the error in thinking is with you guys though, it's -not- rare occasions, even in main scenario roulette, people get pissed off when they see the "first timer" bonus pop up. And GMs don't do jack about helping players targeted and attacked because of it. You guys turn a blind eye to it, stick your heads in the dirt and make believe that everything's sunshine and, well, it's not.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

...However, with that said, a player who is being abusive regarding the bonus messaging, or who is kicking out newcomers in a derogatory manner, is in violation of the service agreement. Should you witness such an incident, please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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Too bad it was also mentioned that kicking players for having different play styles, not being up to snuff, or really you don't like them is not a GM's business to get involved.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

That sounds all good but the standard GM report to a vote kick is that once a dispute occurs, the GMs do not get involved. I posted about it before, story and evidence too. It wasn't a PF group and nothing was done about the abuse I received as it was standard procedure to let it go after a dispute occurs.

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And I will post again that they can and do in fact get involved.

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It's all about *how* you report it.

Open support -> Frequently Asked Questions -> Prohibited Activities in Final Fantasy XIV - > File Report

*Every* time I file a report this way, a GM personally contacts me in game (even if its like 4-6 hours later)

I *have* reported people for abusing the 'kick' feature this way, GM's have directly told me (apologizing for it happening) via a /tell conversation with them saying they are opening an investigation with each incident I've reported and thanking me for reporting them. Abusing vote kick, according to the GM's I have personally talked to in game, is reportable because it affects *your* game experience.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

As some in the thread have stated, the intention behind displaying the bonus message at the start of a duty was to motivate and incentivize experienced players to assist those who may be inexperienced.

While there may be players with malicious intentions on rare occasions, there are no plans to make adjustments to the display of the bonus message at this time. Please keep in mind that when it comes to party finder groups, the player who created the party can set up whatever rules they desire, and they are free to enforce those rules. However, with that said, a player who is being abusive regarding the bonus messaging, or who is kicking out newcomers in a derogatory manner, is in violation of the service agreement. Should you witness such an incident, please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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You read and answered the question but did not listen.

It is not working as intended.

Please display at the end.

"This thing we designed is actually fulfilling the opposite of its design goal. Working as intended! We have no intention to change it."

Oh, FFXIV devs.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

As some in the thread have stated, the intention behind displaying the bonus message at the start of a duty was to motivate and incentivize experienced players to assist those who may be inexperienced.

While there may be players with malicious intentions on rare occasions, there are no plans to make adjustments to the display of the bonus message at this time. Please keep in mind that when it comes to party finder groups, the player who created the party can set up whatever rules they desire, and they are free to enforce those rules. However, with that said, a player who is being abusive regarding the bonus messaging, or who is kicking out newcomers in a derogatory manner, is in violation of the service agreement. Should you witness such an incident, please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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The 100 bonus is too weak of an incentive. I've said it before that no one really cares for tomes anymore, they are easy to acquire regardless of this bonus. Change it or remove it, the game was better without it. Developers need to listen more and understand what bad situations you can create with such a simple message. I've already posted a while back about a change to something like "Increased drop rates/bonus loot". This would be better than the current 100 Soldiery bonus, but to be honest the message was never needed. You guys need to set up a team that actually plays your game so that you can understand what actually happens most of the time, you've created a bad community with your current "systems".

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Snip

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It shouldn't really matter though, if you do it through report harassment, it should be a valid report and the same action should be taken. If they feel it's not the right channel for reporting, then they should change it or forward it on to the correct channel. It's not the players' fault for using the channels clearly labelled and given to us.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

please report the player to the GM team via the Support Desk.

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This does not work in game, they tell you to go to forums and report the matter.

Then the rules here about name shaming prevents people from reporting such actions because if you bring up the name you get banned.

Which you say go report it on support desk kinda means everyone is stuck in a revolving door while the bad ones get away with it.

I find it very funny how this thread really derailed since the OP. The point was clearly stated at the beginning of the thread "100 Myth bonus being abused to kick first timers on dungeon/trials/raids runs"

Then of course you get the elitists in the thread who CAN. NOT. READ. Assuming that the OP is talking about farming runs and PF. No one ever mentioned in OP ANYTHING about PF...

Reading comprehension at its friggin finest :rolleyes:

-SMH-

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Originally Posted by Rhas

And I will post again that they can and do in fact get involved.

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It's all about *how* you report it.

Open support -> Frequently Asked Questions -> Prohibited Activities in Final Fantasy XIV - > File Report

*Every* time I file a report this way, a GM personally contacts me in game (even if its like 4-6 hours later)

I *have* reported people for abusing the 'kick' feature this way, GM's have directly told me (apologizing for it happening) via a /tell conversation with them saying they are opening an investigation with each incident I've reported and thanking me for reporting them. Abusing vote kick, according to the GM's I have personally talked to in game, is reportable because it affects *your* game experience.

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The best response I've had with GM's after I report something, was about 24 hours later, and it was using the messaging system, not a /tell in game.

I submitted all of my GM Reports the same way you just described.

I have also previously worked as a complaint manager for a fortunate 250 company, so I made sure to write it in a fashion that both clearly accents my distress while being professional at the same time, and providing as much detail to the situation as I can.

I Enjoy the game. I enjoy the subcommunity I currently play with / alongside. I have a HUGE appreciation for Naoki Yoshida & his Develpment team. For the most part, the community team seems very interested and dedicated to keeping the Forums as a good/welcoming/app place. (As much as internet forums can be)

The In Game GM's are a huge weak point in this structure. If anything was ever done about any of the GM calls I've put in. (maybe 4 or 5) I am completely unaware. I think I was only contacted about a single issue, it was a reply that asked me for more info, had specific questions. I responded and answered each question one at a time. When I responded, I eventually got exactly the same questions as a reply to my answers, and I don't think I ever received closure, just it was automatically closed after X number of days. This seems to be common feedback on the forums when people discuss GM Reports.

What world are you guys on where everyone is such an ass?

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

What world are you guys on where everyone is such an ass?

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Numerous worlds have this issue. I technically have not "experienced" this, but I have numerous friends that have complained about this issue as they progress or attempted to progress through the story...

I personally love extra soldiery messages, as long as it doesn't show when I join an exclusively FARMING PF party. Sometimes it's an alt of someone who already cleared said fights, or someone who has wiped nearly in the end, experiencing the whole fight. However the cases of people saying they know the fight and just didn't get the kill is too high, resulting in hours of wiping, mind again, on a suposed farming party. But outside farming parties, I don't actually know anyone, nor met anyone who kicked someone in a trial/dungeon/raid for being new to said content (which can practically get carried through), and in fact I see positive comments like "omg I love you newbie" or "aw yisss soldiery". If you get kicked from DF for being first timer on it, report the douches who abused the kick, but nothing can be done if you join a PF with certain rules. You can't choose who you get/join in DF, but you can choose to join or not the PF parties with said rules.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

1000char

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Not to disagree, though I'm totally going to disagree.

The only reason I do main scenario, Moogle Hard, Leviathan Hard, and Ramuh hard is because i actively fish for newbies. That soldiery bonus is the only good thing to come out of those dungeons... and without fail, everytime I see the message, the party is happy about it, not upset. Even when I did T7, as a new person, no one cared and one dude had DreadWyrm armor, and when we got to the boss, the only thing that was said was "I saw the new message, anyone need a run down of the fight?", I told them it was me, saw the video, and was prepared. We lost the first round due to a bad petrify, and no one rage quit... won the second round, and surprisingly enough no one blamed me (the new guy!) for the first failure! (Cause I actually did know the fight and wasn't the cause of the wipe, surprising how education works)

So, I'm not saying it never happens... I'm sure it does, theres a lot of jerks out there... but if said new person sucks at the fight, the party is going to disband or boot them anyway, regardless of a myth message being displayed. I know I'm probably a rare case here but I'm genuinely excited when I see the Soldiery/Bonus message, and In most groups every member I'm with is happy about it too.

I get the problem exists but I don't think its as rampant as implied here.

Every time I've seen the bonus 100 myth message during Trial Roulette or DF first Coil of Bahamut, I have personally thanked the new person for the extra tomes and proceeded to one or two shot the fight. I have never experienced otherwise. I think Gremukah's characterization of the malicious situation the OP is referring to as being "rare" is quite accurate.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Every time I've seen the bonus 100 myth message during Trial Roulette or DF first Coil of Bahamut, I have personally thanked the new person for the extra tomes and proceeded to one or two shot the fight. I have never experienced otherwise. I think Gremukah's characterization of the malicious situation the OP is referring to as being "rare" is quite accurate.

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Quoted for absolute truth.

I would find it extremely hard to believe anyone would require more than a single hand to count genuine cases of this being the reason for vote kick.

Typically it's more due to being rude or ignorant. Immediately being defensive if some queries who the new person is probably isn't very productive either, as I've seen many times.

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Originally Posted by Michizane

I'm sure I'm not the only person sick of this, but it is getting nearly impossible to get a party to clear old content (and even some newer content) if you didn't get clear with in the first two weeks of that content being released.

Everyone is using the Myth message (Soldiery now) to find out who's new, and if you haven't cleared, your gone. It doesn't even matter how far you've gotten into a fight. It has become so that think that 'No clear' equals 'No good" when that isn't the case. How are you to clear something if only those who have cleared it can join groups for it?

The Myth Message was suppose to encourage people to help others clear content, but instead it is being used to keep those who need clear from doing said content. Frankly, the message at the start of dungeons/raids/trials needs to be removed so that people aren't getting singled out, and instead only say at the end of a dungeon you are being rewarded with a bonus for helping someone with clear.

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sounds like you need a world transfer to another data center. i've played since early release and have never once heard of someone getting kicked from anywhere due to being new. never once...

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

The best response I've had with GM's after I report something, was about 24 hours later, and it was using the messaging system, not a /tell in game.

I submitted all of my GM Reports the same way you just described.

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I think its a matter of whether or not you are online when they get to it. For example, the very last one I submitted around 9am in the morning and the GM sent me a tell just as our FC coil group started at 6pm. They apologized for it being so long because of a technical issue on their side but resolved the issue (opened an investigation) through a /tell conversation (making our Coil group go on about a 5 minute break so I could actually pay attention to the fight instead of doing it and being in /tells with the GM. The FC group was.. is this about the same issue as last week? lol ME: I think they just like interrupting our coil group ;P)

Actually it was the 2nd week in a row they answered during my weekly coil group lol But in any case, I'm on Pacific US time. I don't actually file many reports but every time I do I get an in person GM response.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I would find it extremely hard to believe anyone would require more than a single hand to count genuine cases of this being the reason for vote kick.

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It's the majority case for party finders on servers that are up-to-speed (or ahead-of-curve) with pug progression and do content you can't partial queue in DF with. So if you aren't the kind of player that didn't do SCOB or FCOB pugs in 2.2 or 2.3 you probably won't see it.

Basically it's a Party Finder problem. Players clear police (which is frankly a useless activity - I can't count the number of times a group of players desperately linking their HA as 'clear proof' went and died to the first Blighted in a prenerf T6 pug) with the lowest-effort method of finding 'skill' possible rather than actually checking gear or achievements to see what a player is capable of. As a result, it means behind-curve players are left begging friendlies for carries, paying their way to remove the message, or waiting 3+ hours for their 'learning' or 'clear' group that most players avoid like the plague because that implies actual effort in doing the content.

There's also the issue of different server cultures. On JP servers DF for newer content is actually taken seriously, to my limited knowledge, so 100 soldiery is probably seen as a boon rather than a drawback. On NA/EU servers it's quite the opposite.

TBH its 50/50 some hate new players some love them, i for one love new players i could always do with extra sol to get alex maps, but however i wouldnt go out my way to help new players clear Coil itself , primals and dungeons sure i have always had bad time with new players in scoil me if its anyone in my fc, and they was new to run coil i would help but for my server with some new players to coil is just weird a few amount that i have ran into wont listen to help,Tips or watch a guide this has happen to alot of new players i try to help with t5-8 in the end it annoys me at how some players who want to do endgame but dont want tips?its what i dont get, if your new? you're new but dont be a **** when someone trys to Help you because you are new, i could think that its maybe because what i have explained why some players dislike new people into their coil/dungeons because a good 30% will not listen to tips and help to make the dungeon a smooth as possible

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I can't believe people are defending joining farm parties without a clear. Yes, it's possible you are an expert and can farm it with the right group. But let's be real: that's a very low possibility. You need to have some kind of proof you're capable and not having the solidery message is the easiest proof to have. Otherwise you are a risk and liability. Yes, having a clear doesn't mean you're an expert but it's a much safer bet.

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It is mind blowing. Last week I created a farm party on PF for T6. Upon joining we saw a soldiery message. I asked who was new, and there was silence. Clearers showed their high allagan gears or said to check their lodestone profiles. Someone suggested we should just go on ahead and try.
New person had us get devoured every single time. Two wipes later, we knew this was no longer a farm party and we disbanded.
Now I wish I blacklisted him.
The message just has to stay, breaking party rules to effectively get a carry is wrong. If someone thinks they are so good for reaching ~last phase~ then they should create their own clear party and not ride on coattails of farmers.

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

The message just has to stay, breaking party rules to effectively get a carry is wrong.

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There are no other ways to check for player competency or a clear?

If a party leader is too lazy to inspect their own party, they deserve what they get. Back in the "Before-WoW-was-garbage" days good pug raiders were inspecting gear for accuracy caps and proper gemming, grilling shaky-but-bright looking newcomers on their fight experience, and if we *absolutely needed a clear* you took your own damn time out to armory the kid and check their achievement.

But, I mean, keep letting the 250DPS DRG into your groups because his FC carried him or he had a million gil lying around. Again, uou deserve what you get when your only means of screening is a cheevo.

You don't need a no-100-soldiery rule. You need a "fail = kick" rule.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You don't need a no-100-soldiery rule. You need a "fail = kick" rule.

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I need both.
It was admittedly my fault for believing that I should give this newbie a chance, so my lesson was learned and I did implement stricter rules on my next PF.

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Originally Posted by Krr

There are no other ways to check for player competency or a clear?

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Giving how easy to get full i110 without stepping into coil, and i120 pieces since 2.4... How do you check someone who you already see it's geared (but never played with) and has achievement locked on lodestone? You either let them join hoping for the best or kick them if you're not confident enough, and the latter would generate more rage on this "discrimination" complaint going on.

Just gotta deal with it. It's a fact that many many people sneak into FARM recruits to get clears and people expecting smooth runs to farm several runs, and instead they keep wiping for an hour or more because that "experienced" players clearly doesn't know the (not so much anymore) unforgiving mechanics. Can't blame players that want to FARM content they already learnt before, and can't blame them for wanting smooth runs and not wasting their time on liars.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

T7 comment.

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That's fine and all, but I hadn't mentioned coil at all, I can understand apprehension about it in coil groups. I'm talking about, more than "rarely" as stated by Grekumah, I have seen people flip out about it in -main scenario- roulette, where 1 bad person will not cause group wipes. That can be done with just 3 or 4 people, easily. But because that message comes up, they start ragging on anyone not in relic/coil weapons for being shitty because it's their first time. Yes. It does happen. Personally, I fish for the bonus in every dungeon/roulette I do. Others do not look at it as we do though.

The system seems ok, I like the fact it tells you when a player is new to the duty. Then you can just explain the fight to them, also if a player does vote kick simply decine it and make the kicker leave instead if they don't have the patience for it.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

I think Gremukah's characterization of the malicious situation the OP is referring to as being "rare" is quite accurate.

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Because it is rare, people being assholes are an extreme minority in every community. In fact, the vast majority of players are helpful.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You need a "fail = kick" rule.

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That's just as stupid. We are all human, we all make mistakes. None of us are perfect. Peyton Manning doesn't complete 100% of his passes. Lebron James doesn't make 100% of his shots. Mistakes can happen no matter how experienced one is.

The elitists intolerance of failure in this game is stupid. If you don't accept random results, don't play with random people.

They should make a server for all the elitists to join. Then that way they complete every run on the first try and NEVER die.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Mistakes can happen no matter how experienced one is.

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Especially in things that rely on RNG. I've lost track of how many times groups I've been in have wiped in T8 because of unfortunately-placed landmines.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Especially in things that rely on RNG. I've lost track of how many times groups I've been in have wiped in T8 because of unfortunately-placed landmines.

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A landmine can spawn on you, and you can avoid it.... so

no.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You need a "fail = kick" rule.

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"Fail = kick" is a good way to find out which party leaders are themselves poor. A true experienced group knows how to take mistakes and roll with them and recover, because they happen now and then when you've killed the thing 20, 30, 50, 100 times.

This is still obviously multiple clears required, which means no soldiery bonus.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Especially in things that rely on RNG. I've lost track of how many times groups I've been in have wiped in T8 because of unfortunately-placed landmines.

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Landmines is one of the most straightforward mechanics in the run. There's basically no RNG involved in T8 anymore with the tower damage being much lower so that even field on person who should go into the next one isn't an issue.

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Originally Posted by Staris

A landmine can spawn on you, and you can avoid it.... so

no.

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Sure, unless all three of them spawn clumped together on one side in such a way that the DPS and healers get to choose between eating the damage from two or three of them being triggered, dodging and pushing a tower, or dodging in front of the Avatar and risking getting hit by the cleave.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Sure, unless all three of them spawn clumped together on one side in such a way that the DPS and healers get to choose between eating the damage from two or three of them being triggered, dodging and pushing a tower, or dodging in front of the Avatar and risking getting hit by the cleave.

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That isn't a wipe scenario. There's always an open tower spot when mines are up too anyway, and there are multiple safe points. All I'm seeing is someone inexperienced complaining about a mechanic they need more practice on.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

That isn't a wipe scenario. There's always an open tower spot when mines are up too anyway, and there are multiple safe points. All I'm seeing is someone inexperienced complaining about a mechanic they need more practice on.

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Multiple people in my group had cleared already, yet still died when that happened. The point I'm making is that experience doesn't mean someone won't die in a fight for whatever reason.

Heck, in one Levi EX run I did, the very first person to fall off the boat? Was the person with the Levi weapon who had cleared it numerous times.

The message is fine. I don't know anyone who has an issue with it aside from a cleared/farm party desire in PF and someone not abiding by the leader's wishes when they joined. In that case they could have messaged the leader if it's okay or not instead of others now finding out. Some people don't realize PFs might be premade parties and maybe just looking to fill a few roles. In that case it becomes immediately obvious. So it's best to be honest and if you don't meet the desires, don't join.

The real issue is that achievements cannot be connected to the party finder. It's kind of a tough enhancement.

I think the message could be applied while anyone one has not cleared it in his current job. ^^;
For example someone who has cleared it 100times as pld will become a first timer as sch, then ppl maybe more welcome for the bonus.