this is getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's fun for me because I don't have to grind it many times in a single week just to get something to drop. .

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So you'd rather do content once a week and not have it drop at all?
Your idea of fun is amazing!

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's fun for me because I don't have to grind it many times in a single week just to get something to drop.

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Then don't. When Coil 1 was unlocked I didn't force myself to do turns I didn't like all day every day.

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People don't truly understand what would have to happen to unlock the content while it's still current.

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They do. The cons vs pros of of a free system have discussed multiple times here. "People will get gear too fast!!!" is a weak argument versus "the ability to play with your friends" and "the ability to play all weak and peace youself".

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

They do. The cons vs pros of of a free system have discussed multiple times here. "People will get gear too fast!!!" is a weak argument versus "the ability to play with your friends" and "the ability to play all weak and peace youself".

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Sadly this is true, a large number of issues with other content (mainly Hunts) are due to the player backup that the Coil lockouts have caused.

The frustrated masses that have been debating and giving warnings about this for months have either given up on coil due to juggling static schedules or simply got tired of waiting for 2.4 and instantly hopped on the Hunt bandwagon as to not lose out on some form of progression.

The fact that these rewards are so ravenously sought after and that people are forgoing coil entirely shows just how detrimental the current lockout system is to the playerbase.

This isn't to say the current implementation of Hunts is any better because it isn't, in reality its a horrible alternative to a terrible system.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

So you'd rather do content once a week and not have it drop at all?
Your idea of fun is amazing!

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I never said a specific drop, like CT. I meant for something to drop AT ALL. Typically for top end content, if you have it unlocked, the drop rates are not 100%. And even if they're really low, people blow through the content in very little time.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Then don't. When Coil 1 was unlocked I didn't force myself to do turns I didn't like all day every day.

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Read above.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

They do. The cons vs pros of of a free system have discussed multiple times here. "People will get gear too fast!!!" is a weak argument versus "the ability to play with your friends" and "the ability to play all weak and peace youself".

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No, they don't. Most people only look at what they think they want. They never look at it from other people's views or even the developer's views. If unlocked content was such a great idea, why hasn't there been any decent games which used that system? Besides the lack of difficulty, and having to deal with trolls and whatnot in CT, why do many of us find CT boring as hell?

You have to understand, something being difficult or gated or whatnot, is not the same as intentionally making something difficulty or pacing yourself.

Remember resetting mobs is considered a griefing tactic but so is pulling early knowing people are coming.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

Remember pulling early knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic but so is resetting mobs.

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What? You might want to back this up. Resetting already has precedence, but this?

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

Remember resetting mobs is considered a griefing tactic but so is pulling early knowing people are coming.

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Incorrect, you cannot be reported for fighting unclaimed mobs in the open world or every single player would be banned.

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Originally Posted by ispano

What? You might want to back this up. Resetting already has precedence, but this?

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I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic.

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Then that GM doesn't know what they're talking about. I could be there with my own group, knowing that some huge zerg is incoming. But as long as they have not claimed the mob, it's there for anyone to take.

Or, you interpreted it wrong.

Not everyone stands around waiting for people to call out hunts. I have had many times when I'm. Scouting and come across a group kill a A rank, so I join in and let my party know, how is that selfish? Or when I find a mark that no one has I let my party know let them get in the zone and then my Ls. I never lost credit the only time I did was when I attacked one and it's had lighting spikes and it killed me but that's my fault. Other then that I've never got anything but full credit on a mob I found.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Then that GM doesn't know what they're talking about. I could be there with my own group, knowing that some huge zerg is incoming. But as long as they have not claimed the mob, it's there for anyone to take.

Or, you interpreted it wrong.

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GMs are payed to know these things it's their job, if you don't believe me open a support ticket and ask yourself.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

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The horde is always coming. Always.

So pulling when I want to, because I see the mob, the one right there in front of me, that no one is fighting, is as reportable as intentionally actually fucking over someone else's work, simply because the horde is always otw? I fail to believe you. And frankly, shame on you for reporting someone in the first place for that.

If what you say is true, then the Hunt system is dead to me.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

GMs are payed to know these things it's their job, if you don't believe me open a support ticket and ask yourself.

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Yet how come they're not always correct? GM info has been proved wrong on a few occasions. I still think you're simply misinterpreting what was said in the first place.

In fact, re-reading your post, specifically this part:

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I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably

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Makes me almost sure you misunderstood. ie pulling and resetting to make sure no one else can claim it until the mob gets there. But still, if you pull an unclaimed mob, hunt or not, you have done nothing wrong. The ONLY thing they MIGHT get you on is you have chat logs saying you agreed to player rules, ie waiting for others to get there and didn't. But without that, there is nothing wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Yet how come they're not always correct? GM info has been proved wrong on a few occasions. I still think you're simply misinterpreting what was said in the first place.

In fact, re-reading your post, specifically this part:



Makes me almost sure you misunderstood. ie pulling and resetting to make sure no one else can claim it until the mob gets there. But still, if you pull an unclaimed mob, hunt or not, you have done nothing wrong. The ONLY thing they MIGHT get you on is you have chat logs saying you agreed to player rules, ie waiting for others to get there and didn't. But without that, there is nothing wrong with it.

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I'm talking about people who pull mobs repeatably to deny people credit for the kill. I never said I wasn't.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I'm talking about people who pull mobs repeatably to deny people credit for the kill. I never said I wasn't.

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That's not what we've been talking about though. I will concede and just say your wording wasn't the best, perhaps English is not your first language. It was easily interpreted as you saying someone just pulling and killing while knowing a group was on the way was reportable, which it isn't.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

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Yeah mann, I'm going to attack this unclaimed ladybug in North Shroud. Going to pull this mob suuuuppppppeeerrrrrrrr earrrlllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy and HOPEFULLY I won't get reported.

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Originally Posted by ispano

That's not what we've been talking about though. I will concede and just say your wording wasn't the best, perhaps English is not your first language. It was easily interpreted as you saying someone just pulling and killing while knowing a group was on the way was reportable, which it isn't.

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My wording is perfectly fine, you simply misunderstood. When I started using words like "repeatably" and "griefing" you should have gotten the point.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

My wording is perfectly fine, you simply misunderstood.

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No, you didn't.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

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Your words, and I'm not even correcting mistakes, can mean more than one thing because it's not clear. When you make a statement like this, especially if it can be seen multiple ways if worded poorly, you have to be clear about what you said. What you said could easily be read as "Pulling before a group that's coming in arrives is griefing" regardless of how you yourself saw it when you wrote it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

No, you didn't.



Your words, and I'm not even correcting mistakes, can mean more than one thing because it's not clear. When you make a statement like this, especially if it can be seen multiple ways if worded poorly, you have to be clear about what you said. What you said could easily be read as "Pulling before a group that's coming in arrives is griefing" regardless of how you yourself saw it when you wrote it.

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Please look up the word griefer.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

Please look up the word griefer.

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You do realize that the people in the big Hunt LS' consider people who pull early, griefers, right? In fact on many servers, even if you're not part of their group and you pull early they threaten to blacklist you and other such things. It's ludicrous to be sure, but we really don't need misunderstandings to give them ammo, as useless as it would be.

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Originally Posted by ispano

You do realize that the people in the big Hunt LS' consider people who pull early, griefers, right? In fact on many servers, even if you're not part of their group and you pull early they threaten to blacklist you and other such things.

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Please don't try to avoid the point. But seriously this is, like the title of the thread, getting ridiculous. I'm finished here.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

Please don't try to avoid the point.

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Please do tell how i'm avoiding the point? I know what a griefer is. That doesn't change the fact that many of these large mobs think of you the same way. And being unclear about something you say can easily give them the incorrect notion that they can report a group pulling before they get there, which is not the case and is the spreading of misinformation. Intentional or not.

How can you tell who reset the mob?

The other day in Mor Dhona I found the Leech King while I was randomly on my way to do something else. Told my LS, no one was on/not interested so I do a shout with the coordinates. A min later, in the distance I see the hoarde blazing towards me, so I claim the mob so I can get full credit solo because I was qued for a duty. Hoarde shows up and immediately the mob gets reset and then zerged down in a matter of seconds. I get 1 seal.... I just don't see how that is fair. I followed the "rules" and still got screwed. I guess I will just have to join a hunt LS if I want to do this content. If anyone has an opening on Excalibur I would love an invite.

if you are a small party of 5 people, why are you more important than the 100+ in the Hunt mob? Its easy to join a Hunt mob.

if you can't beat the zerg, join the zerg.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Because it's fair as hell that only the few of you get credit when there's a ton of others than would like credit too, right?

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That doesn't make it fair just because others want it. Okay, so I want some of your gil, give me some and that's fair. Infact, give some to everyone on the server and that might be fair. No, it's not. Gil is earned from drops in dungeons, gathering, crafting, raids, monster killing, etc. and hunts are no different. They just have a fancy name and different currency so it's not fair for other people to expect the reward for something someone else has done.

It's fair gain for whomever takes, kills, or contributes to the mob or holds the aggro. If someone doesn't want to wait, so be it. But it's not fair to have to give up your reward just because someone else wants it.

Report the tank who reset it.

Resetting a monster that you found is a form of griefing, which is punishable.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

if you are a small party of 5 people, why are you more important than the 100+ in the Hunt mob? Its easy to join a Hunt mob.

if you can't beat the zerg, join the zerg.

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Because there's still a limit on how many people/groups can get full credit. And why are you more important? You got there and pulled it first. That's why you are more important.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

That doesn't make it fair just because others want it. Okay, so I want some of your gil, give me some and that's fair. Infact, give some to everyone on the server and that might be fair. No, it's not. Gil is earned from drops in dungeons, gathering, crafting, raids, monster killing, etc. and hunts are no different. They just have a fancy name and different currency so it's not fair for other people to expect the reward for something someone else has done.

It's fair gain for whomever takes, kills, or contributes to the mob or holds the aggro. If someone doesn't want to wait, so be it. But it's not fair to have to give up your reward just because someone else wants it.

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Finite resource vs something everyone can get credit for.
Terrible analogy.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Because there's still a limit on how many people/groups can get full credit. And why are you more important? You got there and pulled it first. That's why you are more important.

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No there isn't, it's purely enmity based.
That's why so many groups run lots of healers/tanks to generate as much enmity as possible in a short time.
There is not limit to how many people or groups can obtain full credit.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Finite resource vs something everyone can get credit for.
Terrible analogy.

No there isn't, it's purely enmity based.
That's why so many groups run lots of healers/tanks to generate as much enmity as possible in a short time.
There is not limit to how many people or groups can obtain full credit.

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You're right, it is enmity based, there is still a limit. It's designed that way.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Finite resource vs something everyone can get credit for.
Terrible analogy.

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Terrible analogy, how? Is it that you think everyone can actually get full credit? The more people there are, the less time you have to generate aggro. The less aggro, lower contribution. Lower contribution, lower rewards.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

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I'd like to see the proof.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Finite resource vs something everyone can get credit for.
Terrible analogy.

No there isn't, it's purely enmity based.
That's why so many groups run lots of healers/tanks to generate as much enmity as possible in a short time.
There is not limit to how many people or groups can obtain full credit.

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When you say everyone can get credit, are you talking about everyone in your LS? Unless we're playing different games, not everyone can get full credit if there's too many people, they die way too fast.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

I'd like to see the proof.

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Now that his meaning is clarified, I'm actually inclined to believe him. Back before FATE mobs were provoke immune they said to report people who intentionally reset them. No reason it wouldn't apply, even though you can't provoke. So constantly resetting to prevent someone from killing the mob, even though you're trying to save it for your group... yeah I could see them saying that's griefing.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

But he's saying that pulling early is also griefing and it was confirmed by GMs, I want to see that.

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We clarified that's not what he meant. You should read the rest of my back and forth with him.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Yeah, and they will have nothing to do... WAIT, JUST LIKE NOW.

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Not quite. They would get their full sets in weeks, maybe a month or two.... and burn themselves out on the content, possibly unsubbing.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

I know exactly what I want.

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Keyword of the bit this responds to, "most".

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Lockouts weren't in FFXI (not so heavy anyway, you could do Dynamis every 72 hours) and you could raid every night.

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No, you just had low drop rates. Which is what I pointed out would happen if they were unlocked. Yoshi even mentioned once that the two alternatives were our current locks, or very low drop rates, but unlocked. He felt this was better. And many people agree. You don't, we get it, doesn't mean it's bad this way.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Because CT is a 24 men long ass raid that drops level 100 useless items and with sleep inducing difficulty and which only worthy reward is dropped from the end boss with a 1/3 chance and then 1/8 chance. Please, don't compare it to coil.

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Not comparing to coil. Not to mention, you just helped my argument when you mentioned the drop chance of "the only worthy item". People don't like low drop rates, and that's not even low. I would not want something like Coil, with a loot lockout like CT. I would just get too burned out on it. Especially later on once you have a fair amount of the pieces you need/want.

Also, more of a response to something you said earlier. Preventing people from getting gear too fast is a VERY good reason, whether you want to agree or not.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Now that his meaning is clarified, I'm actually inclined to believe him. Back before FATE mobs were provoke immune they said to report people who intentionally reset them. No reason it wouldn't apply, even though you can't provoke. So constantly resetting to prevent someone from killing the mob, even though you're trying to save it for your group... yeah I could see them saying that's griefing.

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But he's saying that pulling early is also griefing and it was confirmed by GMs, I want to see that.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I never said a specific drop, like CT. I meant for something to drop AT ALL. Typically for top end content, if you have it unlocked, the drop rates are not 100%. And even if they're really low, people blow through the content in very little time.

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Yeah, and they will have nothing to do... WAIT, JUST LIKE NOW.

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No, they don't. Most people only look at what they think they want.

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I know exactly what I want.

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They never look at it from other people's views or even the developer's views. If unlocked content was such a great idea, why hasn't there been any decent games which used that system?

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Lockouts weren't in FFXI (not so heavy anyway, you could do Dynamis every 72 hours) and you could raid every night.

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Besides the lack of difficulty, and having to deal with trolls and whatnot in CT, why do many of us find CT boring as hell?

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Because CT is a 24 men long ass raid that drops level 100 useless items and with sleep inducing difficulty and which only worthy reward is dropped from the end boss with a 1/3 chance and then 1/8 chance. Please, don't compare it to coil.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

Terrible analogy, how? Is it that you think everyone can actually get full credit? The more people there are, the less time you have to generate aggro. The less aggro, lower contribution. Lower contribution, lower rewards.

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And you also forgot to mention you can't even tag the mob to get enmity.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

I had a GM say that pulling early repeatably knowing people are coming is considered a griefing tactic because it's the same reason resetting mobs is against ToS and considered a griefing tactic. It's because it "interrupts the progress of other players".

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The ONLY way I could see this being a 'griefing tactic' is if you verbally agreed to waiting for others to arrive either in /p /ls /FC or /sh ...or if you knowingly joined a group that had such rules (aka Hunt Linkshell). Because SE has set in place a 'grey area' of the rule book that if you agree to a specific party rule/drop lot etc, and then go against it after saying 'sure no problem' you can be in trouble for not keeping your end of the deal. But that's only additional player agreements that are busted. (Like WHM comes into ST and says 'anyone mind if I lot on the MNK body if it drops, I really need it' and you say 'sure NP and then Need lot it and win it when it drops' They can report you ...and win. But if you said 'Uh, I want it too, so sorry but no' They can't do crap because the game's actual rules on lotting are role and if you win=yours.

So I assume the same can be said of hunt groups. If you agree to their rules, and then don't follow them=griefing. If you never agreed in the first place, no issues, pull however you want.

But no, a solo player, small group, band of strangers who see it first and pull it, there is no 'griefing' in that.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Existing mechanics can be misused for griefing and personal advantage, that is reason exists a GM service, or else we don't even need it. Your reasoning to not ban people because they pay the subs, implies no one paying the sub can be banned, with consequence anyone paying the sub is free to do whatever he please in game. Hope you now understand how that reasoning is flawed.

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Ill come back later and see what they decided to do, feel free to attend or not it's your choice.

You can pull on your shiny armor and lobby for justice, they will worry about paying the bills.

They will adjust the mechanics for people who do it silently, they will ban a few tanks who get caught with screenshots proving intention as examples, (probably people they see in their data who sub 4-8 weeks out of every 12), they will make them all force pop/claim like they should have in the first place which will lead to cries of no open world content again, or they will make hunts useless altogether and solve all these issues that way.

Doesn't matter which decision they make, the bottom line and how it will be affected will be taken into consideration, it's business.

Stories abound about how shard/bots were reported from day one at launch and were still around weeks/months later, or about how someone who was reported for abusing mechanics still hasn't been banned after (insert time frame here).

While knights in shining armor pray to game developer gods to administer justice in their fantasy world, the developer gods live in the real world with rent/mortgages/power bills and payroll.

A large number of bans isn't going to happen.

Unless you were born over 35 years ago I have been playing video games longer than you have lived, and I am well aware of why GM's exist, but thanks for the tip.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

So they can halt our progresses.

Too bad it makes content feel like a job and makes you unable to play with your friends. Didn't you guys learn anything from Coil lockout?

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Halting the progress so that there is enough content for people to do in between patches. It would be ridiculous for everyone to run around in full soldiery and coil gears in less than two weeks after a patch.

Most lockouts exists for a reason and a good one.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

But no, a solo player, small group, band of strangers who see it first and pull it, there is no 'griefing' in that.

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The griefing comes from the verbal abuse those who didn't get credit for the kill, didn't get there in time so proceed to pollute chat with obscenities. Funny thing is that I've noticed is those most vocal about missing out are usually the ones who pull as soon as they see it.

But, we as a community should start reporting those players that throw out abusive and foul insults due to their feelings of entitlement.

As, without checking, foul language that is being used after in open chat is a reportable offence.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Lockouts weren't in FFXI (not so heavy anyway, you could do Dynamis every 72 hours) and you could raid every night.

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And you had extremely low drop rate on anything you wanted as a result. I'm pretty sure any FFXI veterans who has done salvage has heard or seen story about people having terrible luck with their items necessary. People who camped for hours in sea and sky hoping to get some spawns for the ZNM. Or the low chance at claiming every HNM in the world with an even lower chance at getting their items (D.ring and Ridill being prime example). And none of these could really be called raid per say. The only things close to a raid were Dynamis and Limbus.