Death Penalty

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Originally Posted by FallenHero

wow I hope you're trolling, what death penalty? waiting 3 whole minutes? give me a break. as people have stated there are a lot of mmos that had REAL death penalties such as losing xp. These games arent archaic, don't be stupid. FFXIV's death penalty is one of the easiest on the market, you dont even have to run to your corpse to pick up your stuff like every other modern WoW clone out there. there's always gonna be some noob crying about something I suppose. Even if the vast majority agrees that it's a non-issue. You should be penalized for dying, MAYBE YOU'LL PLAY SMARTER THEN AND NOT FIGHT SOMETHING A LOT HIGHER LVL THAN YOU DERP. This is to prevent you zerging your way through a leve/quest, in which you would be able to kill something you normally wouldnt be able to by getting it to half health, dying, then immediately running back to the mob to finish it off. Find something RELEVANT to cry about.

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zerging doesnt help much with SP, if you die, and it has half hp it will give you half sp.

like i said the penalty is fine, but im not for the run to corpse exp loss etc other penalties that many games used to have

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Originally Posted by Physic

uhh i death warped in FFXI, i just had a class i didnt care about. And why should death matter when it doesnt matter. Dying in town by drinking a poison potion really should be the same as fighting some epic god?

death penalties dont even make sense, it ends up usually being a time sink by the end of the game, because any content worth being entertaining end game, should have a chance of killing you. So if your designing a game knowing that you will kill people (hello dynamis suicide pulls and NM with Death spells) then why are you going to turn around and tell them they have to go level up for 10% more of their tnl because they suck so bad that they played exactly as they were supposed to.

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I never thought of it like this but your right. its quite silly to send ppl to do thing that you know that will kill them than make them work the exp back.

lol Dynamis death pulls are a concept created by lowmanning. If you actually went in with a full group i doubt one would still have to use sacrifice pulls to clear dynamis but it's impossible to prove now with the recent changes to dynamis. As for the death spell I will agree with that, it's such a cheap douche move that seems impossible to evade, and I doubt the DL gear even adds 1% resist to it lol.

As for death penalty, this game is a fricking joke when it comes to it lol. While I actually did like yoshida's explanation for why they chose to do it the way they did it. While sure chance at xp loss and such does teach you to be more patient it can also be a discouraging way to push people away from actually exploring.Though in the environment like XIV atm there really isn't to much to explore, while the game does have beautiful zones there really isn't a full sense of exploration to be had just yet, at least imo.

I'm not sure if this Death penalty was mentioned but an old game that still runs Dark Ages, not sure if they still use the same death penalty but it was:
-lose xp (no cap either so if that level was normally 500k tnl it's possible to go to 2mil tnl if you die enough times lol)
-obtain a scar (basically a mark showing how many times you died)
-enchanted gear is ripped off of you (any enhanced gear is destroyed)

Though if you were playing with others you were given a window in which you could bring them back from the brink of death so there was an incentive to party play lol.

But ya there's this one game called Shaiya while the concept they set in place is interesting sadly the game itself feels dull lol

http://shaiya.aeriagames.com/guide/modes

Bascically you're able to set your personal difficulty based on how you want to play. Well the above link explains but basically it sets a tone for casual to in between and hardcore gamers, which is pretty neat, an MMO that lets you choose your personal difficulty and still play with those around you.

In XIV terms I could see something like
Easy---- no exp loss, 3 min weakness timer, -no additional bonus-
Normal--xp loss, 5 min weakness timer, +2 attribute boost per level
Hard----xp loss, 10 min weakness timer, +5 attribute boost per level, effected by instant death abilities

Simple cleancut and gives players the option of how they wish to play rather then playing under one ruleset. While the above is prolly something SE will never consider it would be neat if there was some possibility like that lol.

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Originally Posted by akisato

I never thought of it like this but your right. its quite silly to send ppl to do thing that you know that will kill them than make them work the exp back.

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Both of you left out the fact that at that level where you are facing said mobs with the Death Spell/sacrifice pulls and the like, you have(or should have) Items with reraise/Reraise II, as well as mages with Raise II/III, which can negate the majority/all of the exp loss incurred. so no, its not bad game design, "playing exactly as you are supposed to" means going in prepared for what you need to do.

Dark Age is the first MMO I have played. It was quite entertaining. Shaiya has a pretty interesting concept. The ultimate mode reminds me of Steel Battalion. It would interesting to see if anyone plays it in that mode. I don't quite understand how the forming of parties would work. You would either have to play with folks that are on the same difficulty or run the risk of playing with someone on a lower difficulty where the penalties are significantly less making it more risky to party with them.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Both of you left out the fact that at that level where you are facing said mobs with the Death Spell/sacrifice pulls and the like, you have(or should have) Items with reraise/Reraise II, as well as mages with Raise II/III, which can negate the majority/all of the exp loss incurred. so no, its not bad game design, "playing exactly as you are supposed to" means going in prepared for what you need to do.

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you still lose exp, and in some of the harder areas you cant always get a whm to ressurect you without endangering the run/wasting time. no exp was 0 loss, i can tell you right now, no matter how you slice it eventually you end up running out of exp, and they had to go relevel thier classes and rebuild buffer. I was in the party with them thats purpose was to get their exp back.

You can defend it if you want, but the fact of the matter is your just arguing on how much SP they should lose for correctly performing their job to the best of their ability, and saving everyone else time/giving people more option for drops.

Its a stupid design, lets be honest. Imagine if an offline game made you lose exp everytime your charachters died, then gave bosses instant kill moves, and strategies for completing the area that required you die, people would be pissed. You can only penalize death greatly if you make content that never requires you to die, whereby dying can only occur if you mess up.

ah this thread is hilarious. keep going need something to entertain me.

i remember playing games where they took 10% of the total exp youve gained from you when you died and a 10% chance to loose each piece of equipment you were wearing along with 100% chance to loose everything in your inventory

through level like 1-30 when you had only gained maybe 1 million exp it was ok, it would only take like 100k exp from you (which was maybe 3 hours to get) but when you got to the 90s and had 4 billion experience you would loose weeks, sometimes months of work

level cap? what did you need that for? you were never getting past level 100 because of the amount of time you loose when you die

i never even noticed the exp loss in ffxiv lol, its so small

play FFXI then talk

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Originally Posted by Physic

you still lose exp, and in some of the harder areas you cant always get a whm to ressurect you without endangering the run/wasting time. no exp was 0 loss, i can tell you right now, no matter how you slice it eventually you end up running out of exp, and they had to go relevel thier classes and rebuild buffer. I was in the party with them thats purpose was to get their exp back.

You can defend it if you want, but the fact of the matter is your just arguing on how much SP they should lose for correctly performing their job to the best of their ability, and saving everyone else time/giving people more option for drops.

Its a stupid design, lets be honest. Imagine if an offline game made you lose exp everytime your charachters died, then gave bosses instant kill moves, and strategies for completing the area that required you die, people would be pissed. You can only penalize death greatly if you make content that never requires you to die, whereby dying can only occur if you mess up.

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Imagine? I've played games harder than that, Lemmings and Shin Megami Tensei come to mind. what, were you expecting people to be so angry as to fold up their arms and forswore gaming? no, they were fun, they were addictive. You want to know WHY there are people that will defend difficulty in games? because its challenging, and its addictive, both of which are needed in a MMO's success. So Someone "gets pissed", what do they do? Some stamp their feet and go play SS4 on easy difficulty, others look up how to get better at the game that eludes them, still others immediately dive back in for another go and some do some chores and work, but the game is still there. You want fans and population in your games, you need to make them come, and KEEP THEM THERE. There's a reason why games like Pac Man and Chess are still being sold today. Challenge and addictive are two words that this game needs, Square can do this and still keep the casual approach.

Yoshi said they are going to award Bonus SP at the successful completion of a Leve/Behest/Raid.

So..just award Less SP if you die during the event and none obviously if you fail....Simple.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Imagine? I've played games harder than that, Lemmings and Shin Megami Tensei come to mind. what, were you expecting people to be so angry as to fold up their arms and forswore gaming? no, they were fun, they were addictive. You want to know WHY there are people that will defend difficulty in games? because its challenging, and its addictive, both of which are needed in a MMO's success. So Someone "gets pissed", what do they do? Some stamp their feet and go play SS4 on easy difficulty, others look up how to get better at the game that eludes them, still others immediately dive back in for another go and some do some chores and work, but the game is still there. You want fans and population in your games, you need to make them come, and KEEP THEM THERE. There's a reason why games like Pac Man and Chess are still being sold today. Challenge and addictive are two words that this game needs, Square can do this and still keep the casual approach.

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shin megami tensei and lemmings had death penalties? where by you lost exerience? interesting.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Yoshi said they are going to award Bonus SP at the successful completion of a Leve/Behest/Raid.

So..just award Less SP if you die during the event and none obviously if you fail....Simple.

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That's already going to happen.

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To accommodate this change, factors such as recommended/actual rank disparity, completion time, and partial participation will be made to influence the amount of points yielded.

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If you die, you take longer to complete. If you take longer to complete, you get less points.

I am of the opinion that FFXIV does not penalise the player enough for dying, though I agree that the current death penalty is poorly designed.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If you die, you take longer to complete. If you take longer to complete, you get less points.

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Exactly. I don't see a problem here so I'll go troll another thread.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

Yoshi said they are going to award Bonus SP at the successful completion of a Leve/Behest/Raid.

So..just award Less SP if you die during the event and none obviously if you fail....Simple.

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Sounds good to me.

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

This is steep? Let me put this in context before everyone else laughs at you:

• Previous MMOs required a corpse run. That is: all the stuff you had? You don't have it anymore. Go find your dead body, lying next to the thing that killed you, and get it back without dying so you can get your stuff back.
• Previous MMOs docked you experience when you died. Like, a quarter of your TNL. You could level down.
• Previous MMOs had permanent stat loss if you died a lot.
• Previous MMOs had weakness of five minutes or more.

Death penalties are good:

• They create incentive to play better.
• They prevent you from zombieing your way through challenges.
• They add some bit of realism in lieu of permanent death.

FFXIV's death penalty is really really mild. You're "weakened" for three minutes and you have to run back from your last crystal. It takes more than 3 minutes to do that, so it's really just one penalty. At least weakness doesn't slow your movement speed down like it does in some previous MMOs.

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That's the most retarted thing I've ever read regarding mmo...

Death Penatly Good? ... losing your exp for dying good? ...N/C

Death Penalty in FFXIV is good It is annoying but not to that extent as other mmos... sometimes you just have to die, but losing EXP or stats or Losing anything permamently or reversing back is NoNo! Makes you want to drop the game really quick.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

That's already going to happen.


If you die, you take longer to complete. If you take longer to complete, you get less points.

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physic, this is why I brought up SMT and Lemmings. Failure meant redoing the level, or the large amount of time before fighting the boss because of getting the wrong random encounter. What is losing exp other than time investment that gradually builds?

In case you wanted other examples, the Diablo series, Baldur's Gate, Descent, Minecraft, Guild Wars 1, and Oregon Trail.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

First don't ever talk about realism in a fantasy game or any game as a matter of fact. Its a game. Games are not real and the purpose of games are for fun not to simulate reality. When they begin to simulate reality they become a simulation and not a game.

Secondly the death penalties you're referring to are archaic mechanisms. Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

How does death penalty gives the player incentives to play better? Isn't it better to reward for playing better than to punish for not playing good? When you die you have been penalized by DEATH. Why add more?

I also don't understand what you mean by "zombeing" your way through challenges. I have no problem with a gamer dying and returning to the last checkpoint. Thats fine, for it works out as a reset. However, all of the added penalties are unnecessary.

When you die in this game you are sent back to the last crystal. Which is fine but then you are practically useless for three minutes because now its harder to play because of weakness. And this difficulty is not just because of health reduction but a reduction in everything else. Three minutes of doing more or less nothing. Yes I can browse the net, get a cup of coffee etc but the object of a game is to keep the gamer playing.

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Just saying go to the newer stay "Super Easy Mode MMO" and leave us retro MMO players alone..

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Originally Posted by Feldt

That's the most retarted thing I've ever read regarding mmo...

Death Penatly Good? ... losing your exp for dying good? ...N/C

Death Penalty in FFXIV is good It is annoying but not to that extent as other mmos... sometimes you just have to die, but losing EXP or stats or Losing anything permamently or reversing back is NoNo! Makes you want to drop the game really quick.

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Read again please and comprehend not saying its good just stating that the DP is far worse in other MMO's

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Originally Posted by Kallera

physic, this is why I brought up SMT and Lemmings. Failure meant redoing the level, or the large amount of time before fighting the boss because of getting the wrong random encounter. What is losing exp other than time investment that gradually builds?

In case you wanted other examples, the Diablo series, Baldur's Gate, Descent, Minecraft, Guild Wars 1, and Oregon Trail.

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guild wars 1 i played and there was no experience loss, and you could try as much as you wanted. if you were in a quest you could fail for a full wipe, but other than that death was only effected by death penalty, the game was full of death techniques, i remember one ressurection skill where you basically become the monks zombie. and another where if you die you come back with heavy damage potential.

Dont mistake me, im not saying death should have no effect on your playing. Death should be able to cause you to fail a mission, or a run. They may in fact institute something in the coming dungeons where if everyone dies at once you fail *they already do this for missions. However having consequences for death doesnt equate to a death penalty that takes your money/items/experience already earned.
GW is the perfect example of making death matter without having a death penalty, and it makes all sorts of useful techniques and skill viable.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ressurection

all these skills with different styles of dealing with death, in a system with a death penalty, you are really saying you are never supposed to die. So with that in mind, you shouldnt/cant develop too much around death


point is adding death penalty does not make anything harder, it just makes it take longer to get back to where you were. In DP games i have played, most of the time the solution is that the game/groups expect you to take your DP and like it. Suck it up and take R1 its for the good of the team, go sac pull its for the good of the team. Lets all go experience party for a day so we can go zombie the hell out of some megaboss.

Its not adding any difficulty, its just adding a timesink in getting whatever you lose back. And by and large in endgame situations, people will expect, and demand you to die. its a stupid mechanic to punish people for death, then expect them to die to succeed, or have situations where they can do nothing about their deaths (death spells)

Its a totally different thing to make it so that death can cause you to fail an event or negatively impact your chance of success.

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Originally Posted by Physic

point is adding death penalty does not make anything harder, it just makes it take longer to get back to where you were.

Its not adding any difficulty, its just adding a timesink in getting whatever you lose back. And by and large in endgame situations, people will expect, and demand you to die. its a stupid mechanic to punish people for death, then expect them to die to succeed, or have situations where they can do nothing about their deaths (death spells)

Its a totally different thing to make it so that death can cause you to fail an event or negatively impact your chance of success.

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I concure.

I don't know why such a simple concept is being misunderstood. Even though I have repeated many times that death penalty does not make the game harder just more inconvenient and that there are other ways to make the game genuinely harder.

If a boss is hard to defeat or an enemy is hard to kill. Death penalty does not make it harder. Death, is the consequence of the boss/enemy being difficult not death penalty. However, in situations where such as dungeons, timed quests, or any other contained trial, death penalty is expected for it is part of the challenge. Outside of these situations its just a useless timesink.

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Originally Posted by Randis

Death in FFXIV:

Oh, i died. Brb gonna make a tea.

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I agree this is really dumb. It doesn't feel like I failed anything at all it's like the game is as anxious for you to stop playing as you are.

If I lost something like SP or XP at least I'd like to grind that back right away as fast as possible instead of quitting because as it is that's what XIV is telling you. If you fail you don't get to play at all.

XIV is not in a position to assume we care that much for it's company.

... Death Penalty aka Weakness is designed so you can't just swarms things.. It's both reasonable and necessary. People being able to simply throw bodies at Boss Fights Ruins MMOs

the dead animation/sfx is lame too:

...ehhh (drops)

then you have to go to the menu (so annoying) to select return or watch out for a lil icon to pop up in case someone wants to revive you.
There should be a window poping up, telling you if you wish to be revived or if you want to return.

As I said before, the current death penalty promotes bad game play and no strategy because there is no fear of death. If it was a bit more harsh with SP loss and longer weakness time, people would be more careful and prepare more before fights. And there wouldn't be this nonsense with people dying left and right because it's only a 3 minute weakness. No strategy, gung ho, let's throw everything that we have at a mob and see what happens type play arises. If the fear of SP loss was there, more people would prepare and setup the right jobs/action bars to take down a mob.

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Originally Posted by Galoot

As I said before, the current death penalty promotes bad game play and no strategy because there is no fear of death. If it was a bit more harsh with SP loss and longer weakness time, people would be more careful and prepare more before fights. And there wouldn't be this nonsense with people dying left and right because it's only a 3 minute weakness. No strategy, gung ho, let's throw everything that we have at a mob and see what happens type play arises. If the fear of SP loss was there, more people would prepare and setup the right jobs/action bars to take down a mob.

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I don't know why you think that would make people who don't strategize start to strategize. Again you are falling back on the you not liking how others play and you think that everyone should be penalized for it. You clearly state that in your post. To me it does not make sense removing accomplishments because of current failure. Its like you place first in a race but because you lost the second race your success of the previous race is downgraded from first place to second place even though the second race has absolutely nothing to do with the first race. Thats basically what loss of EXP/SP equates to when you die.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

I don't know why you think that would make people who don't strategize start to strategize. Again you are falling back on the you not liking how others play and you think that everyone should be penalized for it. You clearly state that in your post. To me it does not make sense removing accomplishments because of current failure. Its like you place first in a race but because you lost the second race your success of the previous race is downgraded from first place to second place even though the second race has absolutely nothing to do with the first race. Thats basically what loss of EXP/SP equates to when you die.

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False analogy. The equivalent would be a change in your rankings after placing first in one race while crashng with a DNF in another. You get only points for the what you did achieve, but now your team must spend more time and resources fixing your car for the next race because of the crash. And Finally, your points in the standings will reflect your result, compared to those who got farther and those who finished.

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Originally Posted by mmk

i never even noticed the exp loss in ffxiv lol, its so small

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It isn't small. it's nonexistant. (unless you meant to say XI)

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

I don't know why you think that would make people who don't strategize start to strategize. Again you are falling back on the you not liking how others play and you think that everyone should be penalized for it. You clearly state that in your post. To me it does not make sense removing accomplishments because of current failure. Its like you place first in a race but because you lost the second race your success of the previous race is downgraded from first place to second place even though the second race has absolutely nothing to do with the first race. Thats basically what loss of EXP/SP equates to when you die.

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Let me put it this way:

Player A: has played a game for 2 hours since the last save point in a game...and this player is about to fight a boss in which after he will be able to save. Odds are this player will look into what this boss has to offer and adapt their game play to suit the certain mob.

Player B: just saved the game right before a boss fight and figures I'll just run in and see what happens, because there is no real loss if I die. The penalty brings another element to the game making it more of a challenge and making you think before you leap. Basically the game being much harder...I understand your point on where the accomplishment is to beat the boss, but where I'm getting at is to make it even more of a challenge makes it much much more of an accomplishment.

100 Blind Trial and Errors Vs. 10 Strategic Trial and Errors (because of fear of loss of SP)

Um.. what?
Honestly there should be even more of a death penalty. Not sure if srs, OP...
Right now the death plenty is nothing but a tiny timesink. I don't know what other games you people have played, but when you die, there should be a consequence for it. I support the addition of exp loss as a death penalty as well as the death weakness.

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Originally Posted by Galoot

Let me put it this way:

Player A: has played a game for 2 hours since the last save point in a game...and this player is about to fight a boss in which after he will be able to save. Odds are this player will look into what this boss has to offer and adapt their game play to suit the certain mob.

Player B: just saved the game right before a boss fight and figures I'll just run in and see what happens, because there is no real loss if I die. The penalty brings another element to the game making it more of a challenge and making you think before you leap. Basically the game being much harder...I understand your point on where the accomplishment is to beat the boss, but where I'm getting at is to make it even more of a challenge makes it much much more of an accomplishment.

100 Blind Trial and Errors Vs. 10 Strategic Trial and Errors (because of fear of loss of SP)

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I think we have to agree that we see things rather differently :).

What are you guys talking about adding Death Penalty? Wait until this game got fixed first. We are losing new players everyday.

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Originally Posted by CoolBlitz

What are you guys talking about adding Death Penalty? Wait until this game got fixed first. We are losing new players everyday.

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this, just add the fatigue effect upon death if you wanna get really nasty...say 50% sp gained with 1x death penalty and 0% on 2x death penalty

Victory or death!(penalty)

I love Death Penalty's, I love the excitement, And The outright horror when I get killed. I don't want to be casually walking through a pit of daemons and not caring what happens. I am my Char, My char is me. There should be consequences for our actions, or lack of paying attention.

That being said, I am not a fan of the weakened state. Make me run back to my corpse, take a penalty if gil or exp or stat. Just let me get back into the game right away and try to fight back for my dignity! lol

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Originally Posted by Tempestmoon

Victory or death!(penalty)

I love Death Penalty's, I love the excitement, And The outright horror when I get killed. I don't want to be casually walking through a pit of daemons and not caring what happens. I am my Char, My char is me. There should be consequences for our actions, or lack of paying attention.

That being said, I am not a fan of the weakened state. Make me run back to my corpse, take a penalty if gil or exp or stat. Just let me get back into the game right away and try to fight back for my dignity! lol

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weakening is actually functional, in that it puts you in penalty for a time so you cant be that useful/zombie. thats the part that makes sense. the exp/sp/etc is the part that doesnt

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Originally Posted by Galoot

Let me put it this way:

Player A: has played a game for 2 hours since the last save point in a game...and this player is about to fight a boss in which after he will be able to save. Odds are this player will look into what this boss has to offer and adapt their game play to suit the certain mob.

Player B: just saved the game right before a boss fight and figures I'll just run in and see what happens, because there is no real loss if I die. The penalty brings another element to the game making it more of a challenge and making you think before you leap. Basically the game being much harder...I understand your point on where the accomplishment is to beat the boss, but where I'm getting at is to make it even more of a challenge makes it much much more of an accomplishment.

100 Blind Trial and Errors Vs. 10 Strategic Trial and Errors (because of fear of loss of SP)

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Wow clearly you have never had Player A situation ever happen to you and clearly never finished a game with out a guide.
A penalty in this case is not a challenge but a nuisance. how is ok to punish someone for not knowing what to do? why must someone go outside the game to learn how to play at a basic level? if you think about someone had to die to get the info that we all look at they accepted punish so you dont have to. Shouldn't we make it easier one those bold enough to go in first?

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

This is not the only game that does it so I am not just picking on this game however, this game's death penalty is bit steep. But what is the purpose of death penalty? You are already penalized by dying why add more penalties in addition to that? Just to create a timesink?:confused:

This game in particular penalizes you in multiple ways when you die. The first being the reduction in health and the weakness status. Second the weakness status lasts for three minutes. Third your skills take longer to execute. Fourth you are teleported to the last Crystal. Finally after all of this, you have to wait for your health to regenerate after the weakness status wears off. Thats quite a lot of penalties for dying. Doing nothing for three minutes seems rather counter productive for a game. Again, this is not the only game that is guilty of this.

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Is that a joke??

If that's a good Death Penalty for you, then go to play chess. Your movements will be slowered too, since you will have less pieces.

Dunno what people thinks nowadays....

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Originally Posted by YUGON

Is that a joke??

If that's a good Death Penalty for you, then go to play chess. Your movements will be slowered too, since you will have less pieces.

Dunno what people thinks nowadays....

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I don't know how playing chess and death penalty has any relation. Your response reads more like a joke than my initial post.

There needs to be more of a penalty to discourage recklessness. I think there should be EXP loss.