Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

Cure I and Cure II are the least efficient for both mana and time. They are NOT the "most efficiently used skills". You can keep claiming they are all you want, the math says otherwise. Period.

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you are still losted........... where in my post do I say cures are most efficient in TIME? OR MP?????? YOU'RE ASSSUUUMMMINGGGGGGGG the definition of "efficiency"...

While I didn't make clear my definition of "efficiency" in the first post.... NEVERRR DID I SUGGEST EFFICIENT WAS IN TIME NOR IN MP. if you read the second post, in response to the nay sayers, you'll find MY DEFINTION of "efficiency", which isn't based on time nor mp...

The math is in front of you and you're choosing to ignore it in order to make an invalid point.....AGAIN....REREAD MY POST.....NEVVVEEEEERRRRR do I suggest cures are more TIME efficient nor do I suggest MP efficient.................I make plain that Cure I and Cure II are the most POTENCY efficiently used! MEANING of all the skills we use, the ones that actually contribute the max potency available that particular skill; CURE I AND CURE II are at the top of the charts.....those are facts.....

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Originally Posted by javid

YOU'RE ASSSUUUMMMINGGGGGGGG the definition of "efficiency"...

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If this were a less serious forum, this would be made into a mocking spongebob meme in a heartbeat...

What your definition of efficient is and the actual definition of efficient is are two different things.

So funny to so much ppl don't understand anything about their own main job. Keep feeding me with your tears and your lack of intuition please. ♥

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Originally Posted by javid

Cure has more potency if all you do is spam it for 30 seconds, never using any other spell.

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This is the argument you've been making this whole time, and it's actually accurate. Spamming expensive, slow, single target heals is, in fact, the most potent healing, but it is not the most efficient, or the most common. WHM's cast regens, and pop instas. In between, we single target heal and DPS. This is the way we play. It simply is.

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

Cure I and Cure II are the least efficient for both mana and time. They are NOT the "most efficiently used skills". You can keep claiming they are all you want, the math says otherwise. Period.



Irrelevant. Nothing I said claimed your # of casts was wrong.



Their function is to heal, so that is exactly what I demonstrated.



Pineapple, stick, water, dog. The words are english but combined they mean nothing... much like the words above.

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You are the definition of a person unable to have a disagreement without being insulting... enjoy your game. GG

I'm hesitant to even touch this mess this morning, but let's do bullet points.

- Are we really trying to debate the meaning of "efficiency?" I wasn't aware that this term was so subjective....

- Even taking into account logs with Cures for one Savage fight, has there been a coherent, compelling case for the Lilies etc.? What I'm seeing over the past few pages is largely non-sequitur ranting about DPS and debate about Cure usage.

Even if we end up casting 50 Cures in a fight, how relevant do we expect our flower power to be? Then what about the content where Cures are much less in demand? Again, the Lilies seem pretty crap no matter which angle you take.

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Originally Posted by Yhximott

This is the argument you've been making this whole time, and it's actually accurate. Spamming expensive, slow, single target heals is, in fact, the most potent healing, but it is not the most efficient, or the most common. WHM's cast regens, and pop instas. In between, we single target heal and DPS. This is the way we play. It simply is.

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that's a nice summary. However potent healing or efficient is matter of semantics. if you asked the question which of the skills used is most efficiently uses their max potency? That right there would be a measure of EFFICIENCY.


Trolls coming out of the woodworks to argue points that don't make sense.....

So guys are telling me Effective Potency/Max Potency isn't a measure of efficiency???? I'm not allowed to say efficiency??????? If this isn't a measure of efficiency?? what is it??????

In fact it's not that simple due to the lack of communication skill of some ppl.

"Efficiency" is the core of the debate but some ppl don't understand that "Efficiency" depends on the flow of the fight and not just about "time, mp or potency"

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

You can keep the Spear. And you forget, Minor Arcana and Sleeve Draw are going help you a lot when it comes to your RNG mechanics. But you're right... WHM in its proposed state does need all the help it can get. That's what this thread is for... hopefully. And while I'm sure many of us wouldn't mind constructive criticism to our plight, cynically made up crap certainly isn't going to help anyone.

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I'm 98% sure you don't understand what "cynical" means. But I'm glad we agree: you have a problem, and it needs to be addressed.
If you read past the joking in my original post, I have added my support, and will continue to do so.

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Originally Posted by Yhximott

There I fixed it for you.

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If you believe that you're "helping" more than you're hurting your cause, by all means, continue to prove that you're all, in fact, not just whining because someone else "has a prettier dress" rather than complaining because you "have no dress at all" by behaving like this. I'm sure Square Enix will respond with utmost haste and take you very seriously. I know I am.

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Originally Posted by Vaelin

I wish we had more Water-aspected spells for White Mage. Black mage makes great use of their 3 primary elements (Fire, Ice and Thunder) but we only just stick with Earth and Wind. Fluid Aura and Esuna is the exception but... lol.
Give us a flashy water spell SE! Water is such an underused element and to get the chance to see Flood or something similar would be beyond awesome.

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Ironically, I think Divine Benison might have been been an attempt at using the Water element.. At least, it feels like it. If they would just increase it's efficacy, or ease of use, it could probably be a suitable replacement for Stoneskin, with a nicer animation and aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by javid

that's a nice summary. However potent healing or efficient is matter of semantics. if you asked the question which of the skills used is most efficiently uses their max potency? That right there would be a measure of EFFICIENCY.

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Potency and efficiency are far from mutually inclusive. Hence why Cure spells are inherently less efficient in terms of GCDs and MP consumption vs. output despite their far greater potency per cast vs. Regen, for example.

If we're talking about overhealing, that is largely within the player's control. Naturally Medica II often overheals since it applies a regen effect to the entire party.

I Posted this twice now..... Efficiency can be demonstrated in several ways among which : Actual Output/MAX CAPABLE Output is one of the many measures of efficiency we can use.

effective potency/max potency = Potency efficiency....................

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Originally Posted by javid

that's a nice summary. However potent healing or efficient is matter of semantics. if you asked the question which of the skills used is most efficiently uses their max potency? That right there would be a measure of EFFICIENCY.

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Efficiency is a measure maximizing all your resources over a given, measurable period. In the context of only having Cure or only having Medica, for example, you'd be correct, but we have both, and many more skills, in fact. Cure I/II accounts for 2/23 of our available tools. You measured how much healing you could do if you spammed Cure over and over and over and over and over, offering literally nothing else to the party, which makes it seem like Cure is efficient compared to putting a Regen or a Medica II on someone and then standing around for that same 30 seconds. That's definitely not efficient.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Comparing it to other skills in the game, and with bene having its cast time shortened, I think the magic number for arise is 7 minutes, exactly the same as hallowed ground, thats gives you one use per fight, two if you are lucky. Arise is esstentially a do-over, making it as though you never died (DPS loss aside), and that is too powerful to be casting more than twice per fight.

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...I could do 7 minutes, I approve of this time...that's a valid time. Though I have a question...was the Time on Hallowed changed? i'll be completely honest and say my PLD is pre-jobstone.

Kudos for the OP on the idea, but the time was a bit too long. i'd rather debate on the time than anything.

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Originally Posted by javid

Logs listed in this post:
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/zXbgN...aling&source=8

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/8HDyt...ing&source=753

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/NQbWL...ing&source=129

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This guy is trolling all of you. If you go into these logs and look at what the cohealers are doing what you'll see that:
- The astro in the first log precast aspected benefic and did 0 healing for the rest of the fight.
- The astro in the second log cast helios 5 times, aspected helios 5 times, used essential dignity once, and used collective unconscious once.
- The astro in the third log had 9 casts of aspected helios, 3 casts of helios, 1 essential dignity, and 3 casts of aspected benefic.

So in effect these white mages were all solo healing while their cohealers just did whatever.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

...I could do 7 minutes, I approve of this time...that's a valid time. Though I have a question...was the Time on Hallowed changed? i'll be completely honest and say my PLD is pre-jobstone.

Kudos for the OP on the idea, but the time was a bit too long. i'd rather debate on the time than anything.

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Hallowed ground has always been 7 minutes, at least as far as I remember.

GIANT WALL OF TEXT INCOMING! ('cause I have thought about this extensively for the last few days)

After having gone through the stages of grief about the massacre committed on my main (as in... I learn other classes only to become a better WHM!) here are some (okay, plenty of) thoughts from me, on how to fix the mess created with White Mage 4.0. Partially inspired by what others have written here, I also try to keep in mind three things:

1) Any rework should require as little new code as possible, given that would be expensive (time is money). So let's make it as easy and cheap for SE as possible.

2) Require as few new things as possible. It is obvious to me that the devs did not have any new, shiny ideas for role skills, so for the most part they just plundered existing ones and some classes got the short stick there -- most of all WHM, just as in general healers were just stuck painfully with "lets plunder what we have and make them pay for it", while for DPS things look considerably less painful. I admit I draw a blank in terms of truly useful new healing role skills myself (duh, you keep people alive when not making mobs more dead, what is to do there beyond that!), so lets work with what exists (which in one go also adresses #1).

3) The topic of "button bloat" -- given I play on a controller I feel this painfully, so my ideas revolve around "I have one cross hotbar for healing, one for damaging, one for "everything else" (and a few things on all three hotbars, like sprint -- just in case I need to be fast).

Tinkering & Tweaking for Role Skills

1) Give us back Stoneskin I & II

There was no good reason of robbing us of our only, last remaining mitigation after ALREADY it had been needlessly nerfed into the ground. Instead increase the mitigation to make our raw power a bit more even to what AST brings to the table while not overly so. The former 18% might be too much, but I think around 15% would be good (while 10 is a joke). Given Stoneskin II can't be used in combat as it is, our Stoneskin I could then be used as a pre-emptive help against tank busters IF we have the time for that (instead -- more commonly -- just healing through them), and Stoneskin II giving us the breathing room during initital pulls.

It is okay if WHM has mainly only one real mitigating option and that is a bit limited, we are White Mages not Scholars -- but make that ONE thing we have at least remotely good, not the "lol Stoneskin" it is right now, with tanks running off without almost by default since it feels so feeble that it's not worth waiting for it. This "used somemtimes but at important points" skill can happily stay on my 3rd hotbar that way, together with Protect and Eye for an Eye if I chose it. Something to contemplate about Stoneskin in general would be to change it from based on the HP of the receiver to a stat of the WHM casting it -- I don't know whether our attack power, healing power, or even a secondary stat would be a good candidate, just something to throw out there to contemplate -- it sucks if you cast Stoneskin and you are stuck with undergeared folks who are squishy before and stay squishy afterward...

2) Change what we contribute to the role skills.

a) As others have stated already, removing Esuna from everyone to buy it back -- bad. It is not always needed but it is needed way too often to carelessly remove it, and people don't like healers to sort out their skills before an instance can start. So give everyone back their version of Esuna (and for simplicity, why not call it the same thing for everyone: the iconic Esuna). One role skill option freed for everyone and fixes a gap in development as we level up.

b) Removing Shroud of Saints / Luminous Aether into role skills was a bad move as well, we White Mages and Astrologians NEED that for MP management, period. I think removing the nerf from Aetherflow would make sure that SCH has no need for that one at all, and as you give it back to WHM / AST it fixes another gap in our development as we level and again there is one more role skill option for AST/WHM that would be felt painfully otherwise.

Of course that means two role skill options need to be filled now, and you know what: As a main WHM I am happy to contribute! Therefore:

c) Repose becomes a role skill. Role skills seem to be centered mainly about tactical choices and options, and this is a very tactial, optional one. It's not that important in most instances (if at all) but where it is, it is GOOD (Brayflox…), plus it is helpful in solo content, just as if you play with a team that actually utilizes it tactically. So: Repose/Sleep becomes a role skill.

d) As others have stated, Fluid Aura is… eh. And now that damage is removed it will have even less use because YOU DO NOT PUSH MOBS IN INSTANCES (few, rare situations aside). While in solo content, with a group that uses it tactically etc., it can be VERY helpful. So make Fluid Aura (probably under a new name) a role skill.

And last but not least

e) Divine Seal… ONE OF OUR JOB SKILLS. Something iconic about the iconic White Mage. Now, I get that this would be EXTREMELY useful for the other two healers (not as much as Protect, but still…), so removing it from role skills would be … eh. Therefore here my suggestion: Divine Seal stays with White Mage as it was before -- the boost and duration was good, since we mainly use it for short time but powerful bursts either to refresh Regen & Medica 2 or as one of our "oh shit" buttons (and those "oh shit" buttons are part of our core identity!). While at the same time Largesse ALSO stays as it is -- weaker potency but with longer duration, which would offer some benefit to SCH and AST and their play style, but not as powerfully as the powerhouse of healing, WHM, and if a WHM wants that as an additional "moar healz pls" button they can make that tactical choice as a role skill.

Another thing you could absolutely use as a role skill for healers is

f) the old Virus. Yes other roles have it as well now, so what? It is a good but not overly powerful tool for damage mititation and in tune with the general role / identities of all healers. So depending of whether Virus becomes a role skill for healers (again) or not, you could scratch one of the contributions above from WHM for this one to have your number of options for role skills.

With these changes things essential to our toolkit(s) would stay where they belong (in our guaranteed toolkit) while things that are optional but useful become role skills, and White Mage would have good options instead of being forced to buy back all the things that are part of our essential dignity err identity ^^

(As a side note here… Rescue? Really, SE, really? Nice idea on paper, yeah, but every single healer I talked with -- just as myself -- says the same: This has little to no beneficial uses for the game as it is, but TONS of uses to be abused for trolling. Almost like… if you have that as a role skill you admit you are fond of trolling…)

(Side note #2 here, lending my voice to my beloved tanks… stun as a role skill? That is even worse than Esuna / Shroud of Saints. As a tank there are plenty of things You.Have.To.Stun (or at least you should, if you can). So please reconsider putting that among role skills and maybe instead put another protective buff there --something tanks can never have enough of, as I can vouch for as a healer who picks up the pieces when they don't (use them)… ^^; )

Reworking the new gauge and skills

Here I fear we have to do some serious coding work, no way around it because right now this thing is broken and DoA across the board, only a few pieces can be raised from the dead. But lets stay as close as possible to the broken pieces we have…

First of all: DO YOU NEVER AGAIN DARE COME NEAR WHM WITH ANYTHING THAT IS RNG! Again for those in the back, NO MORE RNG EVER WITH WHM! When it comes to healing it needs to be reliable anyway, but for WHM? We are the reliable powerhouses of heals and damage you can count on, so we are the LEAST likely candidate for anything RNG. Keep that for our fellow ASTs, if any. You don't gamble if you are a white mage.

That being said, here we go…

All in all, keep things as they are but change three fundamental things:

Secret of the Lily:
We still have a gauge here, but one that has two parts to it now (like quite a few others out there as well). One is a meter that slowly fills up every time we provide direct heals (Cure 1 & 2, Medica 1 & 2, Tetragrammaton, Benedict, maybe Assize) and/or it fills up by the amount we have healed with our direct heals and regenerative effects (raw healing power = pure healer identity). But given that it is GOOD playstyle for a WHM to also do some darn powerful damage (that is our main utility!) I think it would be a good idea to reward this as well so the meter also fills up as we cast Aeros, Holies and Stones and/or it fills up by the amount of damage we have dished out (so essentially heals and damage are treated the same for the gauge). NO PROCS HERE! Reliably filling the meter a little bit more with every cast, every point of damage/heals.

Once the meter reaches 100% a lily blooms while the meter resets, and we can get up to 3 lilies (no need to rework that part of the UI). Every lily we have provides a small boost to our power as a healer and damage dealer, maybe even scaled so we have an incentive not to just burn them and instead work toward an "ascended state" where we are closer to nature = stronger forces of nature. Numbers are a matter of balance, but maybe something like one lily gives you 2% to your heals & damage, two lilies give you 5%, and three lilies give you 10% -- that way if you have three lillies you are as powerful as a damage dealer as you were before if you switched on Cleric Stance and you get a higher reward for every additional lily and thus an incentive not to just mindlessly burn any lilies you get straight away. And please… never again tinkering with the time of cooldowns like this. As others have stated, we plan on the use of those CDs at specific points of fights, so it is totally useless to WHM (and usually healers & tanks in general).

But of course you also need reasons to burn lilies, so WHM has fun things to play with and tactical choices to make. In come our two new toys -- same name, different effects.

A "Secret of the Lily II" trait could just somehow boost this entire mechanic somehow -- by making the meter fill faster, unlock additional options (see below), give us 4 or 5 instead 3 lilies (an additional buffer we can burn as needed, while not increasing the buff to ourselves as we have it with 3 lilies!), something like that. Just not too OP please, I don't want WHM to become the new (overpowered) AST...

Divine Benison:

I can think of two things here, going by the name of this one (we get a divine blessing). If we trigger this one we burn one lily and in return we get...

a) get a massive boost to our core identity -- heals and damage -- for a short time. Exact numbers are a matter of balancing, but essentially I think we should become (for a short time!) absolutely equals of a dedicated DPS in terms of the damage we dish out, or become able to use this as another "oh shit" button we WHMs are famous for, to pick up the pieces when things go south.

b) a change to certain parts of our core toolkit and thus identity as "the pure, powerful healer with a background in the divine/nature", providing more utility to ourselves and the group. As we burn a lily the next skill/ability with a connection to Divine Benision changes its effect. Examples that make it worth to burn a lily but not being ridiculously OP I think could be:
- Your Esuna becomes a party-wide cleanse of 1 debuff (thus giving us more room to dps more / heal more instead of spamming Esuna… I look at you, Archers at Baelsar's Wall… or whenever too many people eat AoEs that paralyze/sleep them and we have to clean up the mess...)
- Your Stoneskin becomes more powerful (number again a matter of balancing) and/or you can cast Stoneskin 2 in combat.
- Your Presence of Mind a) has a longer duration or b) becomese a party-wide buff (personally I favor the latter, to give us A BIT more utility beyond just "hey we can dps well")
- Your Divine Seal a) has a longer duration and/or b) becomes even stronger or c) becomes a party-wide buff to heals and damage output (the latter please not to powerful, orientation for this should be Balance and Arrow from AST in my opinion, maybe a bit less if you make the heals and DPS of WHM stronger than those of AST -- but a nice synergy would be "WHM in the party increases heals also for our co-healer, so they will be happy to see us!)

Personally I am in favor of option b), because it would give us more utility, has less a chance to either be too weak or too powerful, AND it gives us more tactical choices and things to play with, so we are not just "pushers of three buttons".

Plenary Indulgence:

This becomes our "WE ARE THE HEALZ" one and the forces of nature are smiling on us and our team. First of all, scratch confessions as it is now, it is a broken sytem beyond fixing. No more confessions on our team mates. We could play with confessions as a stack on the White Mage to use but honestly… why? To give us another buff to watch and use? Nope. Lets stay with KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Therefore…

As we hit this button it burns a lily and one of two (or three) potential effects are triggered, depending on what we do next afterwards (and there HAS be a timer on Plenary Indulgence! The gods/nature waits for no one…)

a) Our next raise becomes WAY better than what the others can do. We are the miracle healers! I think there are two things our Raise should be able to do if we combine it with Plenary Indulgence (also again in tune with the name of this skill and our core identity)

1) If we cast it on a fallen comrade that person is revived without weakness. Making white mage the first choice to raise people while at the same time of course this eats more painfully into our MP… so who should cast it, the Red Mage or Scholar who might have the spare MP but weakness follows or the White Mage…? Tactical team choice! Raise and shine, my not-anymore-fallen-comrade!

2) If we cast it on a team mate who is NOT yet Ko'ed, it has a smilar effect to the pomander of restoration, but with a timer to it -- it becomes Rebirth instead of Raise. I am aware that this could be totally OP and broken, but hear me out… So you burn considerably into your MP for this, have this long cast time of Raise (or sacrifice a Swiftcast)… as a lazy failsafe just in case that comrade might die with the next… whatever, 10, 20 seconds or so? No. You would only use it if a) you know shit might hit the fan soon (timer to that one is important!) and b) you know you might not have the time to then cast a raise and c) you know that you can afford the costs (MP … and sacrificing a lily!) and d) you cannot just as well and more cheaply heal them so they DON'T die. So this function should never be something along "oh I just lean back and don't have to worry about heals cause they will come back anyway", but as a costly failsafe. Oh and if they come back they WILL be weakened.

b) Our next party-wide heal becomes POWERFUL. Something that puts us on equal ground with an AST casting lightspeed, in terms of HPS, at the very least. So we see a massive boost to the potency of medica 1 and medica 2 and/or their range becomes increased and/or they can be cast WAY faster. Personally I am in favor of "make it considerably faster and a small but decent amount of potency increase", similar to our current lightspeed for AST. That way we can spam a medica or three very fast but it darn eats into our MP while costing us a lily… but if things are going down the drain room-wide you will be glad to have a WHM in your party.

c) This is something… eh, idk, but it might be worth contemplating it… to stay with the theme of "Indulgence", the next Stoneskin 2 we cast becomes REALLY powerful (heck, if necessary make it more costly in terms of lilies/MP in return). Subject to balancing, but again I think looking at the bole from AST is a good benchmark. So maybe increase it to 20% but we have to pay (and work) for it instead gated behind RNG, and it is not a 20% reduction of damage (powerful!) on a timer but our Stoneskin 2 becomes (the old) 18% or even 20% of a buffer. If combined with Divine Benision (I think then it should burn all 3 lilies!) you could even cast an empowered Stoneskin 2 in combat whenever you know "here comes the big, room-wide ouch that could spell a wipe…" in return for all your resources.

With all these changes you do not make us encroach too much into the territory of SCH (proactive damage mitigation) or AST (versatile jack of all trades) but focus again on our core identity: powerful heals, powerful damage, and some powerful but limited protection and a little bit of extra party utility, while freeing several slots for role skills so we can actually make choices depending on tactical needs and personal style, as it should be.

And last but not least…

Raw Numbers

Please, SE… rethink the numbers we have seen in those tooltips. If AST is more powerful as a healer than WHM (as the number crunchers have proven here) and more or less equal in dpsing power WHILE providing so much powerful utility, something is broken. They need to be able to heal normal content just fine, no question about that. But given the versatility of AST I think they should sacrifice some of their time DPSing/playing with cards for having to heal a bit more in return, while WHM focuses just on powerful healing to give us time for dpsing (our core team utility) and occasionally (if we really have to, those lilies are valuable to us!) protecting / buffing our party and in general being the main healer who takes care of things when "things go south" -- the failsafe of the party. So at the very best AST should be equal in terms of raw healing power, not massively stronger like we saw in those tooltips. If AST (which in many ways is "White Mage with cards and the options of shields instead of regen" right now anyway) is a little bit weaker in base healing power but can balance that with burning their new minor arcana I think that would be a good balance (no pun intended ;) -- have them draw those cards for heals and dps to become our equals in raw power, together with their Earthly (godly) Star.

So make us the strongest healer in numbers and thanks to our strong heals also the one who can spend the most time lobbing those (comparatively) painfully strong stones and really damaging gusts of wind. That way we are "pure healers" but still can provide some much-needed utility and have fun playing with our toolkit while we are the saviors when the best laid plans of SCH/AST are laid to waste.

PS: I am only SCH 50 and all, but please… I lend my voice to my fellow healers here… re-consider the nerf you have done to Bane. It looks really really painful and makes this class less interesting for regular 4-man content where you help mopping up trash pulls frequently (something where WHM, no doubt, shines).

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

You called me out for being rude and unproductive, but you're the one who should check your attitude.

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You've suggested that we shouldn't complain about a perfectly broken and useless addition to our Job because RNG is involved, which is a staple of AST's gameplay, ignoring the fact that AST was built around RNG, rather than having it tacked on at the end of its development. AST gets 6x as many potential, unique benefits each with minimum modifiers equalling to the maximum possible potential of WHM's new Lilies, which the AST can give to anyone they like, or manipulate to empower the other benefits. AST can even throw away its bad draw for a second chance if it likes.

WHM didn't get a "less pretty dress" it got handed a diseased blanket that we're supposed to believe is a "less pretty dress."

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Originally Posted by Aurum

This guy is trolling all of you. If you go into these logs and look at what the cohealers are doing what you'll see that:
- The astro in the first log precast aspected benefic and did 0 healing for the rest of the fight.
- The astro in the second log cast helios 5 times, aspected helios 5 times, used essential dignity once, and used collective unconscious once.
- The astro in the third log had 9 casts of aspected helios, 3 casts of helios, 1 essential dignity, and 3 casts of aspected benefic.

So in effect these white mages were all solo healing while their cohealers just did whatever.

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that's right, this is the comparison ones (between the two healers and what they're doing)

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...1,1&source=8,2
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...source=753,643
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...source=129,128

this shows that the WHM was doing a good portion of the healing while the AST was DPSing. not healing.

Efficiency is the highest output for the lowest "cost", cost being opportunity (GCDs) & resources (cooldowns & mana).

Cure is currently 400 potency, for a single GCD.
Regen is 1050 potency over the course of its duration and the same opportunity cost (it also allows for oGCD skill weaving for EVEN GREATER opportunity efficiency, but we'll ignore that variable).

So regen, for one GCD, provides ~2.5x the potency of Cure for ~1.4x the mana.

Cure spells are for getting a person's health up RIGHT NOW. They're inefficient, but very powerful on a moment to moment basis.
Regen skills are "weak" when looking at a single moment in time, but massively efficient if they are allowed the time to do their jobs.

This is why Medica 2 and Regen are our workhorses, not Cure 1 & 2.

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Originally Posted by javid

I Posted this twice now..... Efficiency can be demonstrated in several ways among which : Actual Output/MAX CAPABLE Output is one of the many measures of efficiency we can use.

effective potency/max potency = Potency efficiency....................

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I think I get where you're trying to go with this, and you have a point as far as it goes, but I'm not sure why this is a talking point.

Regardless of which measure of efficiency you choose to focus on, there isn't really anything there that supports 4.0 WHM mechanics (specifically the Lily gauge) being very useful or desirable.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Ironically, I think Divine Benison might have been been an attempt at using the Water element.. At least, it feels like it. If they would just increase it's efficacy, or ease of use, it could probably be a suitable replacement for Stoneskin, with a nicer animation and aesthetic.

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Yeah it did look quite nice, certainly a lot more aesthetically pleasing than Stoneskin! Just hope it has a bit of a buff to make it more accessible. A shorter cooldown or a 10% party-wide barrier instead would be great perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Hallowed ground has always been 7 minutes, at least as far as I remember.

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I just wasn't sure if they changed it for SB and given how helpful Hallowed is. then i would say something like Arise on that timer would be good. biggest CD now that bene's time got cut, but it would be worth it.

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Originally Posted by Yhximott

You've suggested that we shouldn't complain about a perfectly broken and useless addition to our Job because RNG is involved

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Wrong.
I have suggested that both systems, of lilies and confessions, are poorly thought out for the Job, and proposed ideas as to what I would think would make the situation better.
I have also suggested that it would be better to work together on creating solutions and fixes for the issue, rather than trying to be a jerk to someone because they joked around a bit before they were serious.
You're reading words into my post, based on someone else's misguided and overblown kneejerk reaction to a joke I made.

Nice try though.

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Originally Posted by Aurum

This guy is trolling all of you. If you go into these logs and look at what the cohealers are doing what you'll see that:
- The astro in the first log precast aspected benefic and did 0 healing for the rest of the fight.
- The astro in the second log cast helios 5 times, aspected helios 5 times, used essential dignity once, and used collective unconscious once.
- The astro in the third log had 9 casts of aspected helios, 3 casts of helios, 1 essential dignity, and 3 casts of aspected benefic.

So in effect these white mages were all solo healing while their cohealers just did whatever.

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you are lost..... I clearly indicated that the WHM was the MAIN HEALER... so you'd have to assume the off healer isnt doing much; and that is exactly the scenario you would need in order to make the comparison I demonstrate.

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Originally Posted by javid

you are lost..... I clearly indicated that the WHM was the MAIN HEALER... so you'd have to assume the off healer isnt doing much; and that is exactly the scenario you would need in order to make the comparison I demonstrate.

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It's widely acknowledged that the Main vs. Off-Healer meta is a dated one, and it's only likely to become more so with 4.0 eliminating CS timing as a consideration.

A log where the WHM has to heal a Savage encounter mostly alone doesn't constitute a representative (or particularly predictive) sample of WHM play.

Why Yoshido just don't used the magical "Git Gud" ?

That clearly apply here when I see so much "Main WHM" that don't have any fcking clue about how their job as to be done.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Regardless of which measure of efficiency you choose to focus on, there isn't really anything there that supports 4.0 WHM mechanics (specifically the Lily gauge) being very useful or desirable.

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you conclusion is invalid. One of the prevailing arugments on this forum is "IF SE IS DEAD SET ON MAKING A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE, why not make it proc off of regens and medica II's?"

And my posted answered that questions with why IT WON'T be on regen/medica II applications. Plainly b/c there are too few of them per fight by comparison to Cures I & II; Also in an early post I demonstrated why it would be even worst if they made it proc off of regen ticks (how abusive it could be and/or completely unoticeable by efficient play-styles). Hence the reason why it has to stay on Cures IF SE IS DEAD SET ON A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

You're reading words into my post, based on someone else's misguided and overblown kneejerk reaction to a joke I made.

Nice try though.

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If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't be telling them in the first place. =p

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It's widely acknowledged that the Main vs. Off-Healer meta is a dated one, and it's only likely to become more so with 4.0 eliminating CS timing as a consideration.

A log where the WHM has to heal a Savage encounter mostly alone doesn't constitute a representative (or particularly predictive) sample of WHM play.

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As you say, the WHM wasn't the "Main Healer" it was the "Solo Healer". This is a very dedicated WHM that did that, but i can only imagine what they're MP reserves were, and i almost bet there was no MND/INT potions bot Max-Ether Pots used.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It's widely acknowledged that the Main vs. Off-Healer meta is a dated one, and it's only likely to become more so with 4.0 eliminating CS timing as a consideration.

A log where the WHM has to heal a Savage encounter mostly alone doesn't constitute a representative (or particularly predictive) sample of WHM play.

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Ah haaa!! While the first point of outdated Mainheal/Offheal isn't true in current meta nor will it be true moving forward towards Speed clear farm phases in the future. The second point is very much something to consider!

I don't feel like posting more logs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we pull stats on fights where both healers contribute about the same HPS, that the distribution of skills used in that cooperation won't vary too far from the Main healer/Off healer skill distributions.

I relented

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/7rpFC...ling&source=48

Took me a while to sort thru logs; but if you go bk to Fights HPS (total avg hps needed per fight); Then after obtaining that avg Fight HPS, cut it in half, then go to Personal HPS of that fight you just found, sort by WHM; then do a ton of page clicking until u get to the range of WHM HPS that matchs Fight HPS/2 . Above is an example of just one.

Below is a link that will put you in the Faust Z HPS/2 range, and you can check from there.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/13#b...ic=hps&page=97


with these examples; where the healing responsibility are shared between the two healers; WHM's main healer role (without a SCH!!) skill distribution matches the mostly solo Healing links I provided eariler. Same conclusions: you use more Cure I and IIs than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't be telling them in the first place. =p

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You were being cynical, which you still haven't grasped the meaning of, it would seem. I pointed that out, and jabbed back.
It's not my fault you're sensitive. :p

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Originally Posted by Saigo

Why Yoshido just don't used the magical "Git Gud" ?

That clearly apply here when I see so much "Main WHM" that don't have any fcking clue about how their job as to be done.

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Oh god, the "Git Gud."
The problem with this situation vs. that situation, is that in this situation, the White Mage was given mechanics that aren't truly functional (or at the most, they're minimally so) and players are trying to get that addressed. Certainly, the job can still be played as is, but why take things away and add in this mechanic as an answer to what is lost if the mechanic doesn't bring anything to the table? It really isn't fair.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Oh god, the "Git Gud."

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He's not here to add anything to the discussion; try not to take the obvious bait. Not worth.

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Originally Posted by javid

you conclusion is invalid. One of the prevailing arugments on this forum is "IF SE IS DEAD SET ON MAKING A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE, why not make it proc off of regens and medica II's?"

And my posted answered that questions with why IT WON'T be on regen/medica II applications. Plainly b/c there are too few of them per fight by comparison to Cures I & II; Also in an early post I demonstrated why it would be even worst if they made it proc off of regen ticks (how abusive it could be and/or completely unoticeable by efficient play-styles). Hence the reason why it has to stay on Cures IF SE IS DEAD SET ON A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE.

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Even if I accepted your conclusion to be valid (which I don't at this time), that alone wouldn't solve the Lily problem.

The bit about regen and medica II etc. not working with the Lily system isn't actually the prevailing argument; it's a subordinate argument to the main issue of Lilies being terrible as presented at the media reveal.

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Originally Posted by javid

Ah haaa!! While the first point of outdated Mainheal/Offheal isn't true in current meta nor will it be true moving forward towards Speed clear farm phases in the future. The second point is very much something to consider!

I don't feel like posting more logs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we pull stats on fights where both healers contribute about the same HPS, that the distribution of skills used in that cooperation won't vary too far from the Main healer/Off healer skill distributions.

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You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated? Well, this does help explain some of your positions in this thread.

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Originally Posted by javid

Ah haaa!! While the first point of outdated Mainheal/Offheal isn't true in current meta nor will it be true moving forward towards Speed clear farm phases in the future. The second point is very much something to consider!

I don't feel like posting more logs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we pull stats on fights where both healers contribute about the same HPS, that the distribution of skills used in that cooperation won't vary too far from the Main healer/Off healer skill distributions.

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ok not to be The One, but the ones you posted? those three? The "co-healer" to the WHM touched their heals very little in comparison. meaning they were DPSing. not healing. Hence the numbers of uses of Cure 1/2.

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Originally Posted by javid

Ah haaa!! While the first point of outdated Mainheal/Offheal isn't true in current meta nor will it be true moving forward towards Speed clear farm phases in the future. The second point is very much something to consider!

I don't feel like posting more logs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we pull stats on fights where both healers contribute about the same HPS, that the distribution of skills used in that cooperation won't vary too far from the Main healer/Off healer skill distributions.

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Using a specific log or two to back up your arguments on here is ridiculous in any case. If I wanted to I could cherry pick logs that supported the arguments "Good WHMs mainly use Cure3 for heals", or "Good WHMs mainly use Medica for heals".

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated?

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It's definitely an outdated concept, but wouldn't the situation he presents with his samples be a good example of a sort of stress test situation? In such a situation, although there was an out, the White Mage solo healed, and solo healed sufficiently and effectively, using what he or she had in his or her disposal. In my mind, maybe that's not what you or I would be doing, but that sort of data sample might be what influences decisions like the ones made and put out for the lilies and confessions. I don't think it's wrong to bring it up, even if it isn't a direct solution to the lilies and confessions' lack of meaningful utility.

Edit: Again, trying to keep it clear that I'm not advocating for the current lily and confession system, speaking from a perspective as a player who played Thordan Extreme many times with PUGs via Duty Finder before they stuck it into the Raid Finder, I've actually seen many White Mages try to heal by only using Cure and maybe, if I was lucky, an occasional Cure II. A Medica II if they were feeling particularly jazzy. Definitely not the best way to go into these fights, but maybe something similar happens with much of the casual market of the game, and that's what they were trying to address?

Edit again: Actually, I believe that he was agreeing with you about this being an outdated META. He's saying that the composition isn't true, as in, it isn't the true Meta at this time and that it won't be, going forward. At least, I think.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

He's not here to add anything to the discussion

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I know. But I dare to dream, and hope that maybe, just maybe, he's serious.
And that he'll listen to reason.

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Originally Posted by Chiami

Our next raise becomes WAY better than what the others can do. We are the miracle healers! I think there are two things our Raise should be able to do if we combine it with Plenary Indulgence (also again in tune with the name of this skill and our core identity)

1) If we cast it on a fallen comrade that person is revived without weakness. Making white mage the first choice to raise people while at the same time of course this eats more painfully into our MP… so who should cast it, the Red Mage or Scholar who might have the spare MP but weakness follows or the White Mage…? Tactical team choice! Raise and shine, my not-anymore-fallen-comrade!

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As much as I like the idea, I'm sure it's a bad one. It is great for statics or FC groups, but it would be a nightmare for pick-ups and duty-finder groups. No one would rez because they would assume it's the WHM job to do it himself.

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Snip.

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It is Definitely a Stress-Test on the WHM. I've done A9s as "Solo heal" with BOTH an AST and a SCH as my "co-heal". at the end of the run, you feel very accomplished and then slink to the MB for more MP pots because you forgot to go to Diadem to get the stuff to make them.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Even if I accepted your conclusion to be valid (which I don't at this time), that alone wouldn't solve the Lily problem.

The bit about regen and medica II etc. not working with the Lily system isn't actually the prevailing argument; it's a subordinate argument to the main issue of Lilies being terrible as presented at the media reveal.



You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated? Well, this does help explain some of your positions in this thread.

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If you're being technical about what it means to be a main and off healer then I have no idea what your meaning of main and off healer means.

But the definition of main healer and off healer is the main healer does most the work and the off healer picks up the slack. Any ratio of healing that isn't 100%/0% or 50%/50% are all compositions of Main healer/Off healer. If you meaning something else about the term Main healer/ Off healer then I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by Aurum

Using a specific log or two to back up your arguments on here is ridiculous in any case. If I wanted to I could cherry pick logs that supported the arguments "Good WHMs mainly use Cure3 for heals", or "Good WHMs mainly use Medica for heals".

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This is an example of a troll... the fact that you said this means you did not go and do your homework (like my posted started off saying not to take my word for it; and then later encouraged you to do the heavily lifting yourself) and pull up the link to the full HPS page and click on parse after parse after parse after parse, while YES we can't have a conclusive report from looking at 1 to 3 parses, but if you took the time and looked up 10 or 15 of them, while still not conclusive, it would give you a general idea what may be going on.


BUT HUMOR ME...since you think the cherry picking to make a point is easy.... how about you find one that supports a different claim then what i suppose?? Should be easy right??