As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

That chart above is pure gold :D



This detail in particular interests me the most as I'm in a very similar setting all told and whilst it works nicely for us, it's clear it's not particularly optimal. Even on the run that got my co healer world second on A12S (pre echo), our combined DPS was barely top 50 material. On the flipside, when I'm on SCH and DPSing, my damage numbers aren't close to his, but I subconsciously bubble big hits and such even if it's not 'needed'. It makes me wonder if an aggressive 'main healer' coupled with a cautious but DPS capable SCH would actually be more effective overall.

Let me know how your combined numbers add up, it'd definitely be interesting to see <3

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We have more runs coming up (all we have left to do is bird farm for static members) so I'll ask if we can record and share those. I'll get some video footage too. We had great runs when he was main heal and I was off healer and I think the results are worth sharing. :)

I'm so familiar with the fight that I know exactly where I can dps and exactly where I can't, but I know I probably have room for improvement in the final phase. I'm mostly focused on tethers and default to shielding and/or healing at that point.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

So does everyone else, well all believe in choices. Why is "choice" exclusive to you? Is it because if someone were to "choose"





Please note that all of my questions are rhetorical so please don't cut out my entire post to answer a question out of context.

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Stormbad why do you perceive in anything what Ive said that I think anything is exclusive to me?
When I talk of choice I mean everyone's . Thats why Ive asked for it to be made more clear to people. And I may not be able to quote it all cos of space and thats the only reason Ive cut anyone's. Fund doing things properly hard on controller . No one has said anyone's wrong, about it. Even someone being kicked I said its up to amelia if she wants to. I really dont mind burning my game time for others Its one of the things I most enjoy ... Playing with people. They are more important than optimal play

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Stormbad why do you perceive in anything what Ive said that I think anything is exclusive to me?

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I perceive it that way because your opposing response is to include those words. When you say "something something BUT something something" you are identifying the other person's argument then stating your opposing response. Now if you said "something something AND something something" then your response isn't opposing but then what is there to disagree on in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

When I talk of choice I mean everyone's .

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Like I said before, if this is true, then why are you bothered by people who reply in this thread, regardless of their views?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Thats why Ive asked for it to be made more clear to people.

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If you're talking about a PF with a description, what could people possibly do to make it more clear? We all expect that everyone can clearly read and understand instructions so given that assumption, what more do people need to do to make things more clear?

If you're taling about healer dps meta, what is there to clear up? You get a set of skills and you either use them or you don't use them. As a healer, these include a set of skills that do damage. You go through your MSQ and many side quests which require you to fight and you use those skills. There are guildhests which describe that healers can dps.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

And I may not be able to quote it all cos of space and thats the only reason Ive cut anyone's. Fund doing things properly hard on controller .

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If you're typing on a controller, I assume you are on PS3/4. I really do feel bad for you because when my son first started to play on the PS4, it would take forever to type anything until I got him a keyboard. I totally understand that.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No one has said anyone's wrong, about it. Even someone being kicked I said its up to amelia if she wants to. I really dont mind burning my game time for others Its one of the things I most enjoy ... Playing with people. They are more important than optimal play

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If you aren't saying anyone is wrong, then what have we been discussing these past pages worth of thread? Are you willing to acknowledge that the original group who kicked you for not DPSing are within their right?

Saying this though the kind of intolerece I find grieves me a little that this is the state of affairs. Im not sure I really want to play this game any more really, partially because people may only want to play with optimal players and partially because of how my views were treated here. And the sort of negativity within the community towards people that just want to enjoy the game. You can take it how you want, I wont be putting up with it any more. I tried to state a case for healers to be left alone to enjoy healing how they want to but as you see its not a popular idea. If it bothers people so much that healers dont want the stress of healer dps and healers cant be left to it .... Taika is right I should find a better environment to be in

Fey, it seems like you're not able to make a distinction between discussion of meta, and behavior in game. As well as the huge difference between people's attitudes in casual content versus progression in new savage/extreme content versus geared out people who want to push optimal play and break barriers while we wait for new content.

Related note, there are some amazing solo heals happening right now.

A lot of people have expressed frustration, or intolerance if you will, that attempting discussion with you has been an exercise in shifting goal posts.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Remind me when I get a decent internet connection again to upload an A11s so you can critique why I always feel so overstretched going into final phase double whirlwinds, I'm pretty certain I'm napping and not getting back into the middle soon enough or such and it's always felt a bit too tight at that point =(

<3 solid second opinions.

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Absolutely!! I like discussing different healer strats and watching others videos on how they do things.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Part of what you're seeing in that fight is a lack of synergy between our two healers. Our main healer doesn't trust that he'll get help when he needs it in a pinch, so he neglects those dps windows because our SCH stayed dps stance so much. And I know he'd agree with you on those indoms and succors during tower phases because I remember him asking for that! The problem was once Akiva proved he could heal through it, Astraea let him. Also, our off healer is in TS with us but never uses a mic, only text chat. So that's a strong consideration in shifting him to an actual dps slot while someone with a mic takes point on heals.

Good critiques. We definitely tightened things up after the first clear and that one was a bit sloppy bc of various reasons.

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I definitely got that impression watching your video. It's like watching tanks have a power struggle on who is the MT when really they have to work together to be optimal. (i.e. PLD/DRK pulls the boss on all fights when Unchained opener is by far the most optimal). I'm sure you tightened things up more with more clears. I'm pretty sure on my first clear half the party was dead. It's a good idea to shift roles around to who can build the most synergy together for tanks and healers because of how important it is, that's awesome that your group as a whole is able to make those decisions.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This detail in particular interests me the most as I'm in a very similar setting all told and whilst it works nicely for us, it's clear it's not particularly optimal. Even on the run that got my co healer world second on A12S (pre echo), our combined DPS was barely top 50 material. On the flipside, when I'm on SCH and DPSing, my damage numbers aren't close to his, but I subconsciously bubble big hits and such even if it's not 'needed'. It makes me wonder if an aggressive 'main healer' coupled with a cautious but DPS capable SCH would actually be more effective overall.

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Having an aggressive Main Heals with a cautious Support Heals (unless you are trying to optimize as much as possible, then there's really no distinction between the two) is much better than having an aggressive Support Heals and a cautious Main Heals because while you may end up with extra shielding with a cautious support healer, both healers will be healing optimal and with high DPS. (because DiAST and WHM potencies are so high it's best that they are aggressive with how they use their CDs in order to make DPS windows for both healers)

Here's an example of that although it's pre and post Echo it should give a good representation

Damage Pre-Echo - Cautious MH
Healing Pre-Echo - Cautious MH

Damage Post Echo Aggressive MH
Healing Post Echo Aggressive Heals

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Looking at A11S - Sebazy comparison - Aggressive VS Conservative

Usually the biggest difference in healer DPS is how hard the first phase is pushed. Keep in mind some of the difference is made up of pushing mechanics and optimal comps.

Sebazy Healer DPS

Sebazy Heals

JX Healer DPS

JX Heals

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip

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I am very, deeply sorry. How wrong I was... I just realised, please forgive me. :(

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Originally Posted by Feyona

parataxic distortion

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I know what it means and in fact it's not hard to explain. It simply means you have uber expectations/ build up a picture of a person to which this person will never be able to live up to.
You didn't answered where anything I said would be a reason for you to bring up that term at all, but since I already know the answer (Spoiler: I didn't so there is no reason. :x) you don't need to respond to that anymore, thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

as I noted your not english

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1. Where did you note I am not english? I said so, but you did not until now.
2. lol. My english is way better than yours.

And because I cannot resist:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Saying this though the kind of intolerece I find grieves me a little that this is the state of affairs. Im not sure I really want to play this game any more really, partially because people may only want to play with optimal players and partially because of how my views were treated here. And the sort of negativity within the community towards people that just want to enjoy the game. You can take it how you want, I wont be putting up with it any more. I tried to state a case for healers to be left alone to enjoy healing how they want to but as you see its not a popular idea. If it bothers people so much that healers dont want the stress of healer dps and healers cant be left to it .... Taika is right I should find a better environment to be in

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https://media.giphy.com/media/SM63ReN3zo1vG/giphy.gif
Because one GIF is not enough:
https://media.giphy.com/media/sauYjWmJJ18xW/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif

This solo A12s one blew me away for several reasons.

1. Pre-echo
2. Solo tank
3. MCH dies

I don't think the healer ever went into cleric stance and seemed perpetually out of mana LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqQ0_aqLmRI

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Saying this though the kind of intolerece I find grieves me a little that this is the state of affairs. Im not sure I really want to play this game any more really, partially because people may only want to play with optimal players and partially because of how my views were treated here. And the sort of negativity within the community towards people that just want to enjoy the game. You can take it how you want, I wont be putting up with it any more. I tried to state a case for healers to be left alone to enjoy healing how they want to but as you see its not a popular idea. If it bothers people so much that healers dont want the stress of healer dps and healers cant be left to it .... Taika is right I should find a better environment to be in

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Most FFXIV players do not care to play optimally. Just look at the thread in General called "Tales from Duty Finder" as anecdotal proof.
You won't be putting up with people disagreeing with your position and asking for clarification and proof? Well good for you, you should do what makes you happy.
You tried to state the case for healers to be left alone in... which environment? Casual content or harder content? Because you still haven't been able to distinguish between them. If casual content, guess what, everyone has the same position as you, yes, leave them alone, yes irritating but they play how they want. For harder content where there is an expectation of performance, absolutely not. Not just the healers but every individual will be criticized on non-optimal play and expected to improve.
Yes you need to be in an environment where nobody disagrees with you. And where in the real world does that exist? I can save you time. Nowhere.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

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I dont think Ive really enjoyed the game much since I was kicked tbh when I actually believed it was ok to heal That hasnt been the entire basis of my discussion though I just tried to state why it could be an issue. I was happy healing, and went from clearing sophia to a9s as a healing scholar. Guess Im disheartened. Your right progression is different from casual I can make that distinction. Even if not stated by answering every point I feel just as frustrated.Note I do get the idea of what you say Its mostly the incorrect assumtions or defamations as well, people being able to say what they like to me and even being told to 'shut up' Really this is how people are treated. It even gets likes and I think what sort of people am I trying to talk to here? Thes are the people on the game that Im trying to enjoy. Its just not going to happen is it? Not saying I havent bitten back but 6 onto one? You at least got where I was coming from once

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I am very, deeply sorry. How wrong I was... I just realised, please forgive me. :(

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I still love you (and your gifs!) :o

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Not saying I havent bitten back but 6 onto one?

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Far more interesting topics are afoot here and they don't revolve around you, drop it and move on, you'll find others will do so as well.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Here's an example of that although it's pre and post Echo it should give a good representation

....

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Ty! I'll have a nose through <3

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I know what it means and in fact it's not hard to explain. It simply means you have uber expectations/ build up a picture of a person to which this person will never be able to live up to.

1. Where did you note I am not english? I said so, but you did not until now.
2. lol. My english is way better than yours.

And because I cannot resist:

https://media.giphy.com/media/SM63ReN3zo1vG/giphy.gif
Because one GIF is not enough:
https://media.giphy.com/media/sauYjWmJJ18xW/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif

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Respectfully that is is a partial interpretation, it can mean both negative and positive forms of distortion. Plus the difficulty is in interpreting the much deeper meaning of it. Which would be difficult here. Maybe you dont know as much as what you think you do.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Most FFXIV players do not care to play optimally. Just look at the thread in General called "Tales from Duty Finder" as anecdotal proof.
You won't be putting up with people disagreeing with your position and asking for clarification and proof? Well good for you, you should do what makes you happy.

Yes you need to be in an environment where nobody disagrees with you. And where in the real world does that exist? I can save you time. Nowhere.

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Believe me Ive been in much nicer environments than this. just give over. Arnt you satisfied Im leaving the game? Just leave it

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Maybe you dont know as much as what you think you do.

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That one cuts both ways.

For the sake of common ground in discussion I'd recommend constructing your pitch to the audience and leave out technical or jargon-type terms. It tends to project an impression of perceived superiority, an "I know more/better than you" vibe which isn't conducive to collaborative discussion.

It's great to be educated. It's better to consider and relate to your audience.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Looking at A11S - Sebazy comparison

Usually the biggest difference in healer DPS is how hard the first phase is pushed. Keep in mind some of the difference is made up of pushing mechanics and optimal comps.

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Top spot that, my dots were reasonably on point compared to James, he gets a bunch of extra malefics in but the biggest difference is in him gravitying the add which is something that never occurred to me, I just use it as a window to refresh my dots and little else. If people are slacking the add might get a combust as well, but that's about it from me. Good tip thank you <3

Delving into the A12S comparisons too, my immediate observation is how good James' DPS is despite not gravitying the initial add pack. I find I can get at least 1 gratis aoe in there as long as I go into that phase with essential dignity up. I'm then almost immediately drawn to how good his dot uptime is during stasis. I thought I had that point reasonably covered but he is slaying me there. :eek:

Don't suppose you guys have an A12s from his pov?

For reference:

Seb A12S Combust II uptime
James A12S Combust II uptime

Oh and another useful thing to come from this discussion!

I uh.....

Just realised I've been using Malefic 1 for the past week....

This is why I don't do levelling roulette on capped classes =(

S**t tier dps confirmed =(

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

That one cuts both ways.

For the sake of common ground in discussion I'd recommend constructing your pitch to the audience and leave out technical or jargon-type terms. It tends to project an impression of perceived superiority, an "I know more/better than you" vibe which isn't conducive to collaborative discussion.

It's great to be educated. It's better to consider and relate to your audience.

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I do agree, shouldnt have used educated words, I did remove it but was asked to explain, and did so aimiably but again was turned into a piss take.No matter if I try to be friendly by not ignoring someone I thought was genuinely asking for an answer. Good luck with the game and the people that play on it . You may need it one day if these are the sort of people that rule

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Respectfully that is is a partial interpretation, it can mean both negative and positive forms of distortion. Plus the difficulty is in interpreting the much deeper meaning of it. Which would be difficult here. Maybe you dont know as much as what you think you do.

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I did never mention the words negative or positive, but just talked about it being an expectation, nor did I say anything about the interpretation of it.
Explanation =/= Interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I do agree, shouldnt have used educated words, I did remove it but was asked to explain, and did so aimiably but again was turned into a piss take.

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This is the one I like the most.
Being passive agressive and arrogant at the same time, while claiming to be respectful and the 'keeper of calm words' in here. ;)

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I know what it means and in fact it's not hard to explain. It simply means you have uber expectations/ build up a picture of a person to which this person will never be able to live up to.
You didn't answered where anything I said would be a reason for you to bring up that term at all, but since I already know the answer (Spoiler: I didn't so there is no reason. :x) you don't need to respond to that anymore, thanks. :)

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So please explain me where I 'turned you into a piss'.
You struggled explaining the term, so I took that part for you and turned it into simpler words.
You are obviously not able to show where exactly I said something that could be seen as parataxic distortion, otherwise you would have quoted that part. ^^
I was asking for an answer, but instead of just doing that you explained a term to me I already know. That was not what I asked for. ;)

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

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I actually wasn't being arrogant at all. and from my part it was an explanation of what it means not your dictionary definion which is just really an example of one. You just dont get that I was merely telling you without anything attached in any way like arrogance, because you asked me to. Its what is happening all the time here, mis communication of intent. Your words ' passive aggressive' absolutely nothing of the sort. None of my posts have come from an aggressive stance actually. That they may seem like it then, thats due to how another perceives it. All I can do in that case is try to correct them or try to explain it wasnt meant that way but its hardly accepted. and the reason its not accepted is? You tell me. I explained the meaning of it using an example of here to try to illustrate its meaning. I actually applied its meaning to the situation, Im sorry you didnt understand even then. You want me to explain why your post came across as a piss take? You asked for me to explain then said you already knew the answer, (your interpretation isnt really the full meaning ) So therefore if you thought you knew it why ask? Was it a test? Or for some other reason. Then stated 'lol' my english is better than yours' is that arrogance? Then put three giffs you thought were funny was that aimed at me? Not that theres anything wrong with humour but it seemed like it was intended to mock what I said. Therefore you may or may not see that the whole thing looked like a piss. Amelia try to see your not going to be better than everyone at everything, unless you have 4 years training in certan subject that youve specialized in some may know more than you about that subject and always there will be someone that knows something more, as you yourself may know more than someone else about some things. It isnt trying to be arrogant to have an education, but like bounddreamer said its the audience that I should be careful of addressing. I already thought it was a mistake and removed it. Then was pressed for an explanation which I tried to give. Why did you even want me to explain anyway? The problem is you thought you knew what it meant and couldnt see how it related to your post, so I explained it but you still didnt see how it related that is the problem, it didnt make sense cos you dont really understand the term in the first place

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I actually wasn't being arrogant at all. and from my part it was an explanation

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Do you know what context is?
Because me calling you arrogant has nothing to do with your explanation of the distortion. It was related to your, in fact, passive aggressive posting at the very top of this page.
I will quote it again, even tho I already did before to make a connection, but as it seems you didn't got what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I do agree, shouldnt have used educated words, I did remove it but was asked to explain, and did so aimiably but again was turned into a piss take.

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Let's go through this bit by bit. :D

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I do agree, shouldnt have used educated words

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Saying something like this implys you are more intelligent then me/other people in this thread. Maybe you are, maybe not, noone can tell, but nevertheless it is rude to say something like that. Even if it is just subtext.

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was asked to explain

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No, I wanted you to show me where the distortion can be found in my words. :)

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again was turned into a piss take

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I asked you before to proof that as well, did not happen yet.

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You may need it one day if these are the sort of people that rule

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Taking into consideration to who you were talking to the last page(s) everybody can see who is part of that "these", therefore also rude and passive aggressive. ;)

Maybe you can see where you are wrong when I repeat it:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You asked for me to explain

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No, I did not, here is what I asked for, I will even bold it to underline:

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

But so far I still would like to know what you referred the parataxic distortion to, because I still can't figure that out. I don't want to pick on you, it's just that I am interested in how my words reached you in a way that you think this applys to me. :)

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

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This whole thread where people have singled me out instead of looking what everyone else is doing as well. Bounddreamer mentioned education, I just followed on. It is an educated term but then thought people may not understand. Its not used often so removed it. No implication . I explained where the distortion was. To passive aggression - tbh I think most people have had something not so nice to say about me and mocked so how am I supposed to take that? I am human too you know I even gave a list of things said to me. Then Im called defensive for trying to stick up for myself. You may not realise it but this thread and all the jibes and insults Ive had in it have practically battered me. it feels more like the aggression is the other way round. Ive hardly had anything but a whole string of derrogatory comments not just about my healing but assumptions even how i may act in a group but no one has picked up on anyone else for being rude. Ive told you where ithe distortion was I really cannot explain it more here its off topic and dont really want to. If you want to know study it a little more . Plus even saying it was innappropriate so I removed it and more or less saying it doesnt matter then your still pressing me for answers what is your motive? Just go study it amelia. Apart from that Im just done in with th game , the healer dps meta being shoved down my throat, the high expections, the fighting here, I just give in. What more do you want?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

"It's not me! The others started!"

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Sorry, but this is what your text sounds like to me.
I don't care what people said or did pages ago, because I was talking to you and you are generalizing, which is neither fair nor nice. Just because people were rude or whatever it doesn't mean I am, so as a matter of fact, actually you put up a parataxic distortion, believing I would be 'turning things you say into piss', while I did not.

Is it shitty that people treated you badly? Yes.
Did I do the same? No.
Is it unfair to expect me to be the same? Yes.

I don't involve in personal discussions people have and I think a lot of people don't, that's why noone picked up on others being rude.
Well, in fact I just did 2 pages ago, when I asked Sebazy about the neccassity of his post where he was impolite (attention! impolite, not rude! impolite < rude) to you.
And Sebazy didn't took it personal, but just explained where that was coming from and it was ok. People have different oppinions and points of view. It's just really irritating that you keep repeating yourself in circles over and over again, Feyona. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Here I would say, from reading posts that people have already put me into a certain frame of reference (from earler significant others) and expect my responses to be derrogatory towards them, which I actually never intended but have been put in that 'box' Therefore anything I say is perceived as being aimed at them as intentional attack or something even when it isnt, but gets distorted in by the expectation from one in that category. So if you perceive me as saying burden that its aimed at you that is parataxic distortion. But being as I noted your not english and I wrote it badly it was innappropriate. Hope that answers your question :)

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Apart from the fact that your grammar is lacking and the sentences are not really logical, you are explaining what other people said that can be considered as parataxic distortion, but not what I said and that was what I asked for. :rolleyes:

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if you perceive me as saying burden that its aimed at you

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This sentence is... well, whatever, I think I get it. You talked about burden in general and because you keep referring to pressure=burden=wanting healers to DPS and because I kicked someone who refused to, the conclusion was logical to relate that all together and come to the point where one could say you meant me as well, talking about that burden.
But even if that was untrue, it has nothing to do with a parataxic distortion, but with simple misunderstanding someones intentions.
When you hear trotting hoof, it doesn't need to come from zebras. Could possibly just be horses. :rolleyes: Meaning: There doesn't need to be a complex meaning behind something, but a simple circumstance.

Probably I did the same mistake combining the burden and me kicking someone as well, but try to be more clearly who you are addressing when you say things like that! That will prevent such misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

It isnt trying to be arrogant to have an education, but like bounddreamer said its the audience that I should be careful of addressing.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Bounddreamer mentioned education, I just followed on.

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It's not what Bounddreamer said. When you are talking to a large audience, composed of people from everywhere, you can't really use specific terms from specific formations, or you would only build walls between you and the participants.

And you are still avoiding the question from Amelia. As you did for some people before.
When you put a new argument, you have to come with the proof to support it. It's not your interlocutor who has to find them for you. It's not how a discussion works.

Just go take a look to my previous comment, the chart could be very useful for your future social interactions.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Apart from that Im just done in with th game , the healer dps meta being shoved down my throat, the high expections, the fighting here, I just give in. What more do you want?

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This is a parataxic distortion, because I never said I want you to give in or back up from the game.



Btw:
Nice play to keep editing your post without a sign you are doing so anyone could wait and get all that you are saying. ;)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Just go study it amelia.

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Whatever, you should not bring up terms you can't explain or relate properly and as you said, it was misplaced and did not relate to anything. Therefore, we should let it go.
I deleted what I said about me having studied the english language and proposed that to you, because it is not helpful. Sorry for that one.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Top spot that, my dots were reasonably on point compared to James, he gets a bunch of extra malefics in but the biggest difference is in him gravitying the add which is something that never occurred to me, I just use it as a window to refresh my dots and little else. If people are slacking the add might get a combust as well, but that's about it from me. Good tip thank you <3

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Yeah once the add pops and he starts using Gravity and I drop to the lowest DPS I feel like a scrub. My Roused Whispering Dawn is timed to heal both tanks through until the add dies and James has regens ticking as well that's why our overheal is through the roof but we can both go ham on DPS, which we need to because aside from free AOE skills the rest of the group is burning the boss so we only get 1 Optical sight so that leaves James and I to kill the add.

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Delving into the A12S comparisons too, my immediate observation is how good James' DPS is despite not gravitying the initial add pack. I find I can get at least 1 gratis aoe in there as long as I go into that phase with essential dignity up. I'm then almost immediately drawn to how good his dot uptime is during stasis. I thought I had that point reasonably covered but he is slaying me there. :eek:

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We try to DPS a lot at the start so we can skip Gravitational Anomaly.
- Holmgang Punishing Heat -> Tank swap so no one has to do major heals on the War
- James covers both Prey targets so I can keep DPSing and he somehow adds a lot of Melefic II's -> aggressive Main Heals
- All I add now with Echo is a Virus timed to cover both Mega Holy's and an Indom between the two Mega Holy's and timed Rouse Whispering Dawn to help with the Prey Targets as well as Fey Illumination

Aside from me getting my dots up on the big group of adds and James getting a Gravity off we don't DPS them much because our tanks are in DPS stance and don't use any major CD's.

For the two big adds I position my Fairy to get Roused Whispering Dawn up on both tanks and we both get to DPS a lot. We can kill the Time before it gets two attacks off but it's too fast for Wildfire wouldn't go off so now we have to let at least two attacks go off before it dies, by people jumping onto the Might.

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We use a lot of Living Dead and Holmgang to buy more DPS time and we also do 3 man Timegates. We LB the Healer add (Time) and put the Healer in the DPS add (Winged) so James can just DPS the whole time there.
I stay out because my pet can keep up with the required healing outside of the first AOE stack which I use Emergency Succor + Indom and then use my Roused Fairy Regen which covers the rest of the heals until the rest of the group comes back.

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Don't suppose you guys have an A12s from his pov?

For reference:

Seb A12S Combust II uptime
James A12S Combust II uptime

Oh and another useful thing to come from this discussion!

I uh.....

Just realised I've been using Malefic 1 for the past week....

This is why I don't do levelling roulette on capped classes =(

S**t tier dps confirmed =(

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We don't have any of his POV sorry. That's hilarious about Malefic. Reminds me of getting level synced because I only carry Ruin II on my hotbar.

You are doing great though. Having a SCH co-heals buys a lot more time for MH DPS but you still manage to push out a lot with AST co-heals.

Well I've had A12S farmed out as a tank, last night I was encouraged to main heal A9S and got two clears before the group disbanded. (The party leader got his dps friend a clear and the second run had a few wipes so I think that was why.)

I went in on WHM and oh boy, did I overheal that. The SCH was very good about staying in CS. But since it was my first time healing it, even though I know the fight so well, it was hard gauging my dps windows as main healer. They were definitely there but I wasn't comfortable taking advantage of them.

It was really fun, though. I think I'd happily try healing at least A10S and maybe even A11S.

Going in with a pug made me very wary of staying in CS longer than putting up dots. x_X And I've been spoiled for not seeing double scrapline anymore. Pugs get all the way to bombs. T_T

/opens the party finder list and searches for A12S pugs.
/spots two with a healer spot open, both have the MT spot locked to PLD only.
/nope

=(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

/opens the party finder list and searches for A12S pugs.
/spots two with a healer spot open, both have the MT spot locked to PLD only.
/nope

=(

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But why tho T_T

Our MT mains PLD and he goes DRK for A12S. I know at least one other static on our server that does that... and theirs has a MNK...

Got a fairly solid A12S pug run tonight and a new personal best whoop whoop. Still felt like I left a little on the table in places though, it'd also be interesting to get a second opinion on my perhaps rather excessive dot clipping (for the sake of a few extra ticks here and there). The log is up already and the youtube clip is uploading at a scorching 30kps. Assuming I haven't flooded google off the internet I'll hopefully be able to link it tomorrow.

Critique will be welcomed <3

As promised <3

A12S pug, AST pov - Log

As far as my self critique goes:

I messed up the start a little bit, the aero resist followed by clipping my dots sooner than I needed to cost me a little bit. I might have also swore slightly when collective unconscious refused to take hold on the tanks during the first wave of adds. (I will also note that I used to use lightspeed during the add phase as well for a little extra MP conservation during the helios spam, unfortunately faster groups can get to stasis before it's back up now which can make an early sacrament rather dangerous).

The bard death only really cost me a single GCD so I can't gripe there, I did mess up and apply a round of dots without cleric stance up just before inception tho, I spotted it within a couple of ticks but I imagine that still cost me somewhat =(

Whilst I don't feel like I left much on the table, my DPS is still a way off the mark I think. Am I missing a window? Am I costing myself DPS by clipping dots where I am? Or is it purely a case of optimisation (likely beyond what I'm going to get in a pug) from here on forward?

Thoughts and questions are welcomed of course!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

As promised <3

A12S pug, AST pov - Log

As far as my self critique goes:

I messed up the start a little bit, the aero resist followed by clipping my dots sooner than I needed to cost me a little bit. I might have also swore slightly when collective unconscious refused to take hold on the tanks during the first wave of adds. (I will also note that I used to use lightspeed during the add phase as well for a little extra MP conservation during the helios spam, unfortunately faster groups can get to stasis before it's back up now which can make an early sacrament rather dangerous).

The bard death only really cost me a single GCD so I can't gripe there, I did mess up and apply a round of dots without cleric stance up just before inception tho, I spotted it within a couple of ticks but I imagine that still cost me somewhat =(

Whilst I don't feel like I left much on the table, my DPS is still a way off the mark I think. Am I missing a window? Am I costing myself DPS by clipping dots where I am? Or is it purely a case of optimisation (likely beyond what I'm going to get in a pug) from here on forward?

Thoughts and questions are welcomed of course!

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Here's my though, hope it's helpful. Some of the things are a bit much for a Pug, but most of the SCH things I feel a SCH could be contributing if they've made it to A12S. You really carried the SCH in your video.

Tricks - Noct Aspected Helios at the start because it lasts longer than spread adlo
for the start - Spread Adlo takes few seconds to set up so it wont last into the party soak.

Opener - Have the SCH have Selene out and start to cast Eos @ 10s for the countdown
use Fey Wind @ 2.5s left on Eos cast. Then they can use Rouse/Whispering down during
the Punishing Heat cast. That will carry the regen through Prey and Mega Holy to buy
you some more DPS time. They shoud really use Indom to save you from having to heal between Mega Holy.

This would allow for about 7-8 more Malefic II before Alexander goes away.
(Noct Shield would cover the stack damage and the first hit of Prey, while letting you only heal the 2nd Prey Hit followed by your Aspected Helios,
while the Pet regen tops for Mega Holy. Which means you can go back to DPSing from Aspected Helios until Alexander goes away)

General's Wing adds - You can usually get 6 casts off before needing to Helios. Have your SCH
cast Succor just before all the little adds die to help with the upcoming Almost Holy.

Then Succor again after the 1st Almost Holy.

Malefic II VS Dots during adds. Average Malefic II is 4.1k
Getting 5.2k out of Combust II but only 3.5k out of Combust.
Would recommend casting Malefic II on the Winged adds that are almost dying so that
the Almost Holy hurts less. That should allow for extra Malefic II's and less Helios
especially if the SCH casts Succor in between the two Almost Holy's.

Because of Echo your SCH may want to adjust their Damage on the Winged adds as well.
Broil is 2.8k. Their Miasma and Shadowflare combined only did 1100 damage because the
adds die too quick. Typically I do two Broils on the first add to die. Then two Broils
on the 2nd add to die, then Miasma and Bio on the last add to die before casting Succor (for the Almost Holy) and then continuing with Broil.

Time/Might Phase - Fey Wind doesn't get a lot of use outside of the opener in this fight. I'd recommend having Eos up for the Time/Might. If the Might is tanked just outside the buff circle and Eos is placed in middle of the arena instead of just following the SCH around then both tanks can have a Roused Whispering Down. E4E is also really helpful if placed on the War @ this point.

*** The Fairy should be placed in the middle of the arena for this fight. There's a lot of lost casts with it following the SCH around and it's sometimes unable to reach targets.

For the Big Boss AOE with Tank LB

Succor is enough. Save Deployed Adlo for just before the boss reappears. This will help with people not dropping so low and helps with topping before Mega Holy and more DPS uptime. Spread Adlo + Fairy Regen will cover the need to Aspected Helios which allows AST to use Combust and Aero while moving into position to prevent any lost casts. (can probably fit 4 more Malefic II here) You can also finish the cast on a 5th Malefic II and then if you're brave enough refresh your Combust II during the run in instead of refreshing it early. Just don't missclick on Clerics lol.

After Divine Spear and before 2nd Temporal Stasis - about 6 DPS casts. Can go Combust II, M2, M2 and then when you see what mechanic you have use Combust II and Aero to get into Position and then cast a couple more M2's. The Regen + Fairy is more than enough for Alexander's auto's on the MT (again as long as the fairy isn't following the SCH around and not casting Embrace)

Timegates
- Keeping everyone topped too much. Casting Aspected Helios before timegates is all anyone should need. Aspected Benefic on top of that is a bit overkill. Use that time to cast your DPS spells. (~ 7 DPS casts lost before the first Crystal) ~7 more before 1st Inception. Once your co-healer is back
Aspected Benefic + Fairy can top the Main Tank. Aspected Benefic whoever gets the last crystal and DPS hard. Keep in mind how long your dots will be able to tick for because they wont do damage when he dissapears.

Tank took too much damage from Punishing Heat. Grit + Dark Mind. Maybe they were too slow on Mind and took 30k. Ideally you can just Disable the hit and let the Regen bring them back up while you DPS. Using Time Dilation on the Tank after using CO + Aspected Benefic and Aspected Helios will buy plenty of DPS time as those regens are so strong.

Good use of the downtime after 1st Inception - Combust II, Combust, Aero on the run in and Malefic II's before the tank buster. Try to squeeze those extra DPS casts in after the Divine Spear though. Combust II, Combust, Malefic II spam until Gravity then Aero to run in and more M2 spam (~4-5 DPS casts missing). Regen and the pet will cover needed heals. Then Aspected Helios just after Inception cast, you've got Sprint, lots of time.

Rinse and repeat after 2nd Inception.

You really laid it on Alex after that. Only missed maybe 5 more Malefic II's just from being careful on everyone having extra regens etc.
Just try to let the tank stay topped with just Aspected Benefic and Pet heals and don't toss out the AOE regen until after the first puddles go
off. Just keep DPSing hard there.

So in total with including SCH using their tools to cover some heals (cause they can do that without losing any GCD's) there was a total of ~11,000 Potency worth of damage spells lost.

That comes out to about 218,000 Damage or 372 DPS.

Without other optimizations with the party and SCH you could probably fit about 7000 more potency in 136,000 Damange or 233 DPS.

So, are we done with Feyona? Because I want to move on with conversation. Mayhap it might be time for a new thread...

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Here's my though, hope it's helpful.

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Absolutely, top insight and there's definitely some nuggets in there I will try to incorporate into my play. My SCH has mentioned the pre pull noct helios thing before, I guess I should have listened rather than being stubborn! :eeep:

Thanks, it's appreciated <3

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Absolutely, top insight and there's definitely some nuggets in there I will try to incorporate into my play. My SCH has mentioned the pre pull noct helios thing before, I guess I should have listened rather than being stubborn! :eeep:

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Awesome. Yeah if you do the noct shield opener I'm sure you can convince them to do the Fey Wind pet swap opener. Half way through writing that I was like..... Sebazy is gonna hate me for being so nitpicky. I wanted to add all the spots where you were doing awesome but I didn't want to make too large wall of text and due to time I had to write it I only focused on improvement areas. :thumbsup:

Right, so this just happened. Picture your best Healer performance in a dungeon all week, followed by entering the same dungeon later on your tank to mix-things up, and your healer (who has practically everything at level 60) presses a 'here's my rules' macro.

http://i.imgur.com/89FSn7M.jpg

That mess threw me off right at the start - ended up doing a huge pull without Shield Oath up, though I don't feel bad about it after I absorbed the context of the whole dungeon. For someone who says "DPS isn't needed to keep you at 100% all the time", they sure as hell didn't even make an effort to do that while refusing to DPS (hence the last comment in the picture). I was left to go down to <10-30% countless times before any heals would come in, so what's the damn point of such macros if you're just going to stare at the healthbar with your newfound lazy free-time? A 34k HP Paladin who actually uses their CD's, uses Clemency to heal damage during last-bosses leaps, mitigates every deadly thrust, stuns exploding goo's, drags packs to the steamholes, does whatever they can to make the run easier for all... And it was absolutely pointless to do so as it was simply buying time/ease for someone who just couldn't be bothered to make any use out of it. I would have taken non-cleric stance DPS... Precast heals... Stoneshields... Something... Anything... Just not nothing.

Sounds like a valid reason to kick for differences in playstyle. Pretty rude of a person to waltz into a party and start getting high and mighty about what they want to do during the dungeon and outline the path of least resistance for themselves so they can AFK heal while watching netflix on another screen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

Sounds like a valid reason to kick for differences in playstyle. Pretty rude of a person to waltz into a party and start getting high and mighty about what they want to do during the dungeon and outline the path of least resistance for themselves so they can AFK heal while watching netflix on another screen.

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Yup, this 100%. RopeDrink, you should edit the players name out of the screenshot though, posting names like this can get you banned from forums.

Sorry if someone got offended but, is healer not doing dps is really matter/sensitive in west server?

I play in tonberry (japan server) and not even once from my lifetime playing this game i see a heated discussion about healer not doing dps

I see a lot of healer only doing heal and just go full emote and nobody give damn about it, in fact sometime i see someone else just join the emote thingy when the enemy is dying and this happen in raid too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yup, this 100%. RopeDrink, you should edit the players name out of the screenshot though, posting names like this can get you banned from forums.

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EDIT: Done.

http://i.imgur.com/89FSn7M.jpg

Quote:

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Sounds like a valid reason to kick for differences in playstyle. Pretty rude of a person to waltz into a party and start getting high and mighty about what they want to do during the dungeon and outline the path of least resistance for themselves so they can AFK heal while watching netflix on another screen.

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Sad part is, I felt bad for wanting to insta-leave. Not only did the above happen but they also had a random 5minute DC midway, so you can imagine how reluctant/cautious I was after both incidents - Sword Oath wasn't an option knowing my HP would whittle down and I'd have to WAIT FOR HEALING (kinda sad when you can't even trust a 'no DPS healer' to heal), so even I couldn't try to pick up the slack. Props to the two DPS'ers, they had enough to make the trash NOT feel like a total slog (lacking Healer DPS was very noticable on bosses however), but that actually reinforces my point -- The tank and DPS were making life easier, so how can any healer justify not doing anything for 80% of trash pulls and boss fights? I've got a recording of the final fight here and all I see is Helios being cast every 40 seconds or so, otherwise they're just standing in the middle of the arena admiring the show. They have almost everything at level 60, and they play this bad? It boggles my mind.

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is healer not doing dps is really matter/sensitive in west server?

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There are 42.5 pages worth of discussion on that topic - feel free to skip back some. It's best not to open that wormhole again now that a certain discussion angle in here has since been resolved. Me? I think it's unacceptable in situations where they have glaringly huge opportunity windows to do SOMETHING, such as above described picture/situation. Doing nothing (no pre-heals, buffs, DPS etc) is indication of utter laziness. Above example is just Sohm Al - things differ in higher-end content. As a WHM main who is very aggressive in dungeons, meeting the above type person when I'm tanking is akin to buzzkill, frustration and eye-rolling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gumas

Sorry if someone got offended but, is healer not doing dps is really matter/sensitive in west server?

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Generally the people I run into on the servers themselves tend to be DPSing as healers. The OF is just particularly sensitive to the topics of tanks and healers DPSing for some reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

snip

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Oh how I would have trolled this healer hard. Wouldn't even wait on Protect, I'd go pull the entire room immediately and purposely over mitigate through just to taunt them. "See? Warrior doesn't even need your heals." Then go on about how she's useless because of it.

Wouldn't ever be that aggressive otherwise. I'll slow down if a healer asks me beforehand because they aren't entirely comfortable with mass pulls, but people like this basically deciding for us how the group shall play? Nope. I'm trolling you.