Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Healer is boring, yes. tried different ones... i dont talk about ultima content, just MSQ content from - to...

When i see a 4 man party on a boss with 70% and except the tank the rest dies... there is JUST the tank standing there, mostly Warrior (some Paladins maybe) okay... and this one tank beats the shit out of the boss from 70% until death of the Boss, i am wondering why the hell we need a healer at all.....???? maybe just to keep the DPS alive who dont have the same selfhealabilities? but is THAT all?

If Square already decide to give healers so less to heal, then please, give them at least some kind of DMG rotation of 3 spells, with 66% on 1st and 33% on 2nd spell to proc the next one in line.... would not make them OP at all....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I also do not see why all removing all sustain-based utility would be outright necessary just to implement talent systems. Of all the ways to improve healer gameplay, similarly, simply ripping skills out of everyone else seem a rather poor first step. There's literally nothing that removing utility from everyone else would do that couldn't be done better and more directly by just increasing encounters' damage (save, of course, for simplifying other jobs).

---

While it doesn't sound like a big deal on paper, it does add up to the whole picture at hand that is current Job design.

Let's take WAR for example. Its official Job description states (shortly summarized) how they are considered savage and a "overwhelming presence" while being the most enduring presence on the battlefield.

I fail to see how Skills such as Thrill of Battle (Heal), Equilibrium (Heal), Shake it off (Aoe mitigation utility) , Nascent Flesh/Raw Intuition/ Bloodwhetting (freaking Lifesteal + dmg mitigation) and Onslaught (3 charge dash, really?) translate into this Job identity. To me, when i think about a overpowering presence that fights like a savage with a big axe, i think about a slow swinging heavy hitting dude who has literally no self sustain, but compensates it with really high defenses and damage that might even make enemies flee in terror.


Now what has that to do with Healers? You see, all those Skills i mentioned earlier, are wasted opportunities (except for Onslaught, which is just dumb design) on Healers being able to provide as Utility. Wouldnt it be great if, for example, SCH's Shields could provide the Effect of Nascent Flesh? What about one of the AST Cards doing the effect of Thrill of Battle?
Changes like this would not only allow for Healers to improve, it would even give back Tanks some of the identity they lost for the sake of convenience.


As for "True, but we're both (A) no longer in pre-2012, and (B) in XIV. One or both factors has left players here likely to bar classes/jobs/specs over much smaller performance gaps than the case for WoW then and even today.",

Despite it being a thing of the past, it still doesn't invalidate the fact that such a System has been very well recieved by its Community, to the point that readding it (after it has been removed after WotLK, iirc) with the incoming Dragonflight expansion, has been giving many Players a reason to have hope in WoW again.

And while FFXIV is not WoW, i think we can learn a few things from them from time to time. FFXIV doesn't need to try to reinvent the wheel by always making completely new Systems, sometimes, its enough to simply copypaste a existing one and finetune it a little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiazirah

i am wondering why the hell we need a healer at all.....???? maybe just to keep the DPS alive who dont have the same selfhealabilities? but is THAT all?

---

YoshiP says "Please look forward to it."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MintnHoney

YoshiP says "Please look forward to it."

---

I think it would be hard to justify a job like WHM as a DPS job wince it has always been such a heal heavy job in the past, but I guess they could work it out. As for talent trees, it is true that those only offer the illusion of choice. There will always be a build that performs better than others and that is the one players will be expected to choose. You might be able to get away with other builds in some content but anyone looking to do content that cannot be done in DF will be excluded without having the proper build, and even then in DF if some people find out you don't have the right build they will probably kick you for slowing the run down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

I think it would be hard to justify a job like WHM as a DPS job wince it has always been such a heal heavy job in the past, but I guess they could work it out. As for talent trees, it is true that those only offer the illusion of choice. There will always be a build that performs better than others and that is the one players will be expected to choose. You might be able to get away with other builds in some content but anyone looking to do content that cannot be done in DF will be excluded without having the proper build, and even then in DF if some people find out you don't have the right build they will probably kick you for slowing the run down.

---

Not that my sarcasm was directed at the specific discussion about talent trees, but I think it's silly to be afraid of a scenario of player groups in every type of content not allowing for certain jobs in XIV, because the game's general difficulty doesn't really justify having to look for the greatest-most-bestest build and the team has actively taken steps to ensure that such behavior could be viewed as harassment, therefore cowing everyone into basically keeping their heads down lest the hammer come looking for the nail. I don't necessarily believe that talent trees or whatever are the best answer to our healer situation, but we really shouldn't be letting something as banal as "meta" be stopping us from trying to get better gameplay, especially because, as it stands, we already have a meta anyway and 0 out of 4 healers are specifically fun on their own merits alone.

Not to mention with the buffs to tanks and their ability to self sustain, healers have even less work to do. Warriors can straight up solo heal themselves and also provide mitigations for the party. Dark knights have self healing on Living Dead now and the sheer amount of damage they do means there's less healer-healing to need. Makes me wonder, how long until self-sustain is so prevalent on tanks every job can solo heal thru anything?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by game_enjoyer

Not to mention with the buffs to tanks and their ability to self sustain, healers have even less work to do. Warriors can straight up solo heal themselves and also provide mitigations for the party. Dark knights have self healing on Living Dead now and the sheer amount of damage they do means there's less healer-healing to need. Makes me wonder, how long until self-sustain is so prevalent on tanks every job can solo heal thru anything?

---

they already can

Not sure if I said it here yet but FIX AST.
Fix heals!
That is all.

btw if anyone thinks criterion will have better healing that wont be the case. Its desiged for 1-4 players so naturally healing required will be pitiful

If I run expert roulette dungeons with friends, we go WAR and 3 DPS...

Healers are boring and verging on unnecessary. In ultimate content, I might need to use additional GCD healing, but even in the most difficult content in the game I spend the majority of my time dealing damage.

This continued refusal to acknowledge how poorly designed the role is as a whole has got to end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmpelioB

they already can

---

Thrill of battle + Equilibrium crit.

Why do I even exist? As a sage I just accept it and give them Krasis so their Equilibrium can heal even more and I can feel like I accomplished that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmpelioB

they already can

---

Managed to solo the final boss from 60% in Holmister while keeping my other two dps alive as a GNB with just Aurora and Heart of Light.

I wish I was recording that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

If I run expert roulette dungeons with friends, we go WAR and 3 DPS...

Healers are boring and verging on unnecessary. In ultimate content, I might need to use additional GCD healing, but even in the most difficult content in the game I spend the majority of my time dealing damage.

This continued refusal to acknowledge how poorly designed the role is as a whole has got to end.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

Managed to solo the final boss from 60% in Holmister while keeping my other two dps alive as a GNB with just Aurora and Heart of Light.

I wish I was recording that.

---

The beauty of that double standard is they trust tanks [and physical ranged dps to an extend] are competent enough to be able to do their job while assisting the party if needed/whenever they can, but the role whose entire purpose is to assist the party is treated as if they literally can't manage to press more than ~4 buttons, 3 of which have a cooldown.

Healers/supports are generally joked to be the babysitter role in any other game, but in XIV, it feels they're the ones being babysat instead

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

The beauty of that double standard is they trust tanks [and physical ranged dps to an extend] are competent enough to be able to do their job while assisting the party if needed/whenever they can, but the role whose entire purpose is to assist the party is treated as if they literally can't manage to press more than ~4 buttons, 3 of which have a cooldown.

---

Healers, you can help me by chopping the vegetables. Here's a plastic knife, and 3 peas to chop.

Just wait until you can do dungeons with 5 dps and the tank is optional too - bye bye holy trinity :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

Just wait until you can do dungeons with 5 dps and the tank is optional too - bye bye holy trinity :(

---

Why put off until tomorrow that which you can already do today?

Dropping this here because as promised I have updated it at long last! Just before my sub ends

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Dropping this here because as promised I have updated it at long last! Just before my sub ends

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues

---

Thanks for attempting to fight the good fight.

Hopefully we see you around in the future!

Maybe we Healer Mains should all just go to Ultima Thule and give in to despair, so that we can create not another Endsinger, but a EndHEALER. A Raidboss you cant defeat, since it has arround 20 Healing abilities and it WILL only Glarespam you and occasionally DoT someone. You wont die to it easily, but you wont enjoy your stay.


Jokes aside, i really am curious how long Squeenix intends to remain stubborn about this garbage design on Healer Jobs, it cant be that hard to either reduce Healing to match all the content it is suppoest to cover or Buff said Content to match Healing parameters AT THE VERY LEAST, but theyre not even doing that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Thanks for attempting to fight the good fight.

Hopefully we see you around in the future!

---

Same. I'd like to come back to a game where healing is treated with the respect it deserves as one of the core pillars of the trinity

I admire some of our fellow veteran healer here who continue to argue about healer design while our game designer will never change anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anhra

Maybe we Healer Mains should all just go to Ultima Thule and give in to despair, so that we can create not another Endsinger, but a EndHEALER. A Raidboss you cant defeat, since it has arround 20 Healing abilities and it WILL only Glarespam you and occasionally DoT someone. You wont die to it easily, but you wont enjoy your stay.


Jokes aside, i really am curious how long Squeenix intends to remain stubborn about this garbage design on Healer Jobs, it cant be that hard to either reduce Healing to match all the content it is suppoest to cover or Buff said Content to match Healing parameters AT THE VERY LEAST, but theyre not even doing that.

---

It'd have Holy III, so it'd use that since it'd be an 8-man instance. More efficient that way. And since Holy stuns and I don't think mob abilities are subject to diminishing turns, it could keep the party stunlocked probably forever. The ultimate despair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

It'd have Holy III, so it'd use that since it'd be an 8-man instance. More efficient that way. And since Holy stuns and I don't think mob abilities are subject to diminishing turns, it could keep the party stunlocked probably forever. The ultimate despair.

---

IIRC mob debuffs outside of vulns and damage downs do have diminishing returns, sadly.

I remember getting hit with pacify a few times and eventually it was down to like 3 seconds, there also might be a specific version that isn't effected by diminishing returns in HoH.

Now that DSU has been cleared by a few groups we can again say: yep. Healing requirement is not even nearly enough. Mitigation check: ok. But in the current state this is a group job, not healer alone...
Healing: not as much.

90% of the casts were...11111111111211111

Dissapointed but not surprised. So Mr. Yoshi P, not even the "promised" ultimate the healer engagement is higher...

Perhaps your new statement should be: "if you want more engaging content play PvP"
That would, finally, have some truth in it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aarchie

Now that DSU has been cleared by a few groups we can again say: yep. Healing requirement is not even nearly enough. Mitigation check: ok. But in the current state this is a group job, not healer alone...
Healing: not as much.

90% of the casts were...11111111111211111

Dissapointed but not surprised. So Mr. Yoshi P, not even the "promised" ultimate the healer engagement is higher...

Perhaps your new statement should be: "if you want more engaging content play PvP"
That would, finally, have some truth in it

---

Even in pvp healers spend more time doing damage than healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ritsuka-55

Even in pvp healers spend more time doing damage than healing.

---

Which is expected, but we at least have the engagement of being able to PVP competitively rather than just sitting back and only using our basic spells so we can babysit the other jobs, who get to have fun and play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I don't think mob abilities are subject to diminishing turns.

---

Pretty sure they are. After a certain number of uses, stuns will no longer even interrupt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aarchie

So Mr. Yoshi P, not even the "promised" ultimate the healer engagement is higher...

Perhaps your new statement should be: "if you want more engaging content play PvP"
That would, finally, have some truth in it

---

I did call it.

The mitigation requirements are absolutely pretty brutal and that's the job of half the healer jobs in the game. Anyone who thinks that requiring careful consideration and planning isn't engagement just has an incorrect definition of engagement or has moved the goalposts so far that nothing will ever make them happy.

Sucks about the other two healer jobs though.

I honestly can't enjoy playing WHM anymore when its singular mitigation on a long cooldown means there are periods of time where you're just left hoping the rest of party did their job when a raidwide is coming.

AST can at least use its mitigation more often and has thought/planning involved with its cards and Earthy Star timings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Anyone who thinks that requiring careful consideration and planning isn't engagement just has an incorrect definition of engagement or has moved the goalposts so far that nothing will ever make them happy.

---

Or maybe "careful consideration and planning" is only "engaging" for so long as the boss remains unsolved. Planning is done before the fight begins. Solving when to use your oGCDs is done before the fight begins. What do you do after the fight begins? Oh, that's right, wear out the 1 key on your keyboard.

See, this is what you lot don't get about healing: Planning is not a substitute for execution.

If I wanted to get my "engagement" from making a plan and then shutting my brain off entirely during the execution, I'd play one of the million or so F2P gacha auto-battlers on the market.

(And, of course, this "careful consideration and planning" is only required in the tippy-top-end of content. Healers are not necessary in dungeons. Healers are not necessary in 24-mans. Healers are not necessary in normals. Healers are not necessary in EXs. Healers are not necessary in the first two Savages, and in one out of four Ultimates. How much "careful consideration and planning" can there possibly be for healers to do in fights that can be cleared without healers at all?)

Tanks have to do "careful consideration and planning" when deciding which defensive CDs to use when, and figuring out the tank swaps, etc., but they also get a proper DPS rotation to execute after that plan has been set. DPSers have to do "careful consideration and planning" when deciding who's going to handle which mechanic, what strategy to use overall, etc., but they also get a proper DPS rotation to execute after that plan has been set.

So why aren't healers allowed to have a proper DPS rotation to execute once their plan has been set? Oh, that's right, healers are all ADD-addled children who can't be trusted to do anything more than press one button over and over. (/s, in case it wasn't obvious)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

The mitigation requirements are absolutely pretty brutal and that's the job of half the healer jobs in the game. Anyone who thinks that requiring careful consideration and planning isn't engagement just has an incorrect definition of engagement or has moved the goalposts so far that nothing will ever make them happy.

Sucks about the other two healer jobs though.

---

I thought we hit rock bottom with "If you want more engaging content go play Ultimate" but now we have the final form with "If you want more engaging content go play Ultimate, but please only play SCH and SGE".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

The mitigation requirements are absolutely pretty brutal and that's the job of half the healer jobs in the game. Anyone who thinks that requiring careful consideration and planning isn't engagement just has an incorrect definition of engagement or has moved the goalposts so far that nothing will ever make them happy.

Sucks about the other two healer jobs though.

---

Engagement in regards to our healing tools is not just mapping out when we use them.

It is also: knowing which one to use at X moment and managing them properly so you always have something to use in the case of an emergency.

The problem is that FFXIV's combat design coupled with the healer's design, does not do this.

I have no less than 4 AOEs that come up every 60s and raidwide damage is ROUGHLY every 60s. All 4 of those tools are more than adequate to cover the raid wide damage to where it doesn't matter if I hit Collective Unconciousness over Celestial Opposition to the point where I actually ADVOCATE CU'S REMOVAL because why would I value its 10% mitigation when there is so little content I actually NEED IT. There is no emergency that I cannot cover with one (1) ability and spend a GCD on instead unless I go out of my way to find another Orbonne Monestary where I have people dying ENMASS.

Instead of saying "I'd rather use CU here because the damage is greater and I want that mitigation" I'm saying "Earthly Star is up, the damage isn't high enough to need a shield from Neutral or that 10% from CU, I'm going to place it here continue hitting 1". Repeatedly. I'm sorry, I actually would LIKE to burn through my CDs. MAKE ME GCD heal. It breaks up me spamming Fall Malefic.
(This btw is why your healer wants W2W pulls because we DO cycle through our CDs)

If FFXIV ever WANTS our vast majority of healing tools to be engaging without making damage absurdly high (because if 1 healer has about 8-10 tools, about 4 are on 60s, imagine the outgoing damage you'd need to put out if you DOUBLED THAT) they would need to do a combination of the following:

Give MP cost on oGCDs
Nerf the cooldowns of our more powerful abilities so they aren't all 60s
Remove excess tools we have
Increase outgoing damage so it isn't once every 60s


And that STILL DOESN'T ADDRESS 2 DPS BUTTON SPAM because down time is always going to be a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Punslinger

So why aren't healers allowed to have a proper DPS rotation to execute once their plan has been set? Oh, that's right, healers are all ADD-addled children who can't be trusted to do anything more than press one button over and over. (/s, in case it wasn't obvious)

---

Because healers obviously need to pay attention to party health bars and fix mistakes, unlike tanks and DPS.

Mechanics that wipe the party when a single person is one pixel away from the marker: ( ◡‿◡ *)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

The mitigation requirements are absolutely pretty brutal and that's the job of half the healer jobs in the game. Anyone who thinks that requiring careful consideration and planning isn't engagement just has an incorrect definition of engagement or has moved the goalposts so far that nothing will ever make them happy.

Sucks about the other two healer jobs though.

---

Mitigation is a group responsibility. Every job has some, especially tanks and even BLM and SAM have Addle or Feint which is vital in Ultimate. This all needs to be coordinated as a team. Overwriting Reprisals is like losing one. Putting to much mitigation into one raidwide leaves you with none for the next.

Sure, the shield healer has more, but if you think planning mitigation is a special healer exclusive form of engagement you're mistaken.

I really feel like the director should play through New Game Plus as a Hrothgar healer at this point, so that he can better understand or more highly prioritize the concerns that both healers and Hrothgar players have in terms of gameplay repetition and limited customization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MellowMink

I really feel like the director should play through New Game Plus as a Hrothgar healer at this point, so that he can better understand or more highly prioritize the concerns that both healers and Hrothgar players have in terms of gameplay repetition and limited customization.

---

tbh anyone in the team from SE is just going to conclude with a "This is fine, I'm okay with the events that are unfolding." because if they so much as get near an extreme level fight they get Thanos snapped from the balance team.

So all the info they're going to get is just from scrub subpar pre extreme healers who still think dungeon healing is hard & engaging.

Not to mention, there is always the possibility that they would fear backlash for saying something that goes against the general design of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rewd

I thought we hit rock bottom with "If you want more engaging content go play Ultimate" but now we have the final form with "If you want more engaging content go play Ultimate, but please only play SCH and SGE".

---

I mean, shield healers have always been a lot more fun than pure healers, so this is nothing new. Even in the glory days of healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Not to mention, there is always the possibility that they would fear backlash for saying something that goes against the general design of the game.

---

Haven't they already by saying healers should heal, give us all these healing tools, but still failing to deliver damage to use them all?