7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

If they don't change Dragoon back soon, I think I'll just have to drop the job. Even doing maps last night, it felt so empty - and it makes me sad I can no longer use Nastrond on a group as it appears, because I only have one.

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Originally Posted by KaliG

Good to know you realize your own opinion is irrelevant Dragoon Lv 92.

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At my current level I had experienced everything but starcross and passive changes that have no influence on the rotation.

Nice try though. If I already felt it was too busy and disorganized during the burst window at level 92, then introducing starcross would only make it worse. Which is part of the reason why I unsubscribed, I knew that another button was being added to a burst window that I already felt was too much. What even is this perspective you're expressing other than delusional gatekeeping?

At the end of the day, you're not going to get what you want.

I also want to reiterate the capitalist perspective and people talking about how I am "not playing the game". The changes this patch led me to resubscribe and post praise for the dev's direction on the forums. Who do you think they want playing their game, people like me who respect and appreciate their design yet don't play as often. Or people like you who continue to play the game with a negative perspective when you clearly don't appreciate what they are doing. Your playtime over mine doesn't mean you pay more for the game. We both pay the same subscription fee. The difference is that you're actively complaining about the game and likely often in game, making the gameplay experience worse for everyone by being a negative influence.

When I play the game, I have nothing but good things to say about it and I enjoy my engagement with the game and the community. The moment I stop enjoying it, I just unsubscribe and do something else with my life. I don't stick around making the world a worse place. I just move on if I'm not happy.

So again, who do you think they want playing their game and paying the same subscription fee? You're not giving them more money by playing more, if anything you are actively harming the experience by engaging while being unhappy.

If you don't like the game, unsubscribe and move on. Negative players are nothing but a detriment. Put your money where your mouth is.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

If I already felt it was too busy and disorganized during the burst window at level 92, then introducing starcross would only make it worse.

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Genuinely a skill issue. Your only contribution to any Dragoon conversation is borderline trolling and how your own inability should be catered to.

I get so much second hand embarrassment when you post, please stop.

I would also like to remind people that the game itself also has a "Leave a Suggestion" form under Support Desk. Don't just stick to the forums.

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Originally Posted by Schan

I would also like to remind people that the game itself also has a "Leave a Suggestion" form under Support Desk. Don't just stick to the forums.

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Well yeah, but that one's only for feedback about the support desk itself, for actual game-related suggestions, we're stuck here. Source: the actual game

https://i.ibb.co/1QVKkpB/Sem-t-tulo.png

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Originally Posted by SomeGuy22

Well yeah, but that one's only for feedback about the support desk itself, for actual game-related suggestions, we're stuck here. Source: the actual game

https://i.ibb.co/1QVKkpB/Sem-t-tulo.png

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Wow, my brain has really skipped the support on "support-related" lol

Well after submitting it says it'll be forwarded to the appropriate teams so... /shrug

Since the alteration of the job gauge in Dawntrail, it irked me that Mirage Dive was just... still there. It no longer has a defined use so it's removal wouldn't have impacted many if anyone at all. This change grants players at level 70 a single burst of Nastrond. The change to Nastrond is either an oversight prioritising future job changes rather than the current iteration, based on anecdotal information or misguided attempt at QoL. While I understand the development teams intention of a more homogeneous class design, it can rob players of class identity and overall depth of interest in the class. A busy rotation is not a bad thing or an aspect to be shunned. It can be fun and engaging. Classes have their own appeal with playstyle, fashion and visuals, a busy rotation is what makes Dragoon fun and I would argue an integral part of it. It would be akin to reducing the amount of combinations a Ninja player can do or reducing the mana consumption of Black Mage fire spells. It may provide ease of access to new players and be defined as "QoL" yet paradoxically it provides little for a players retention or to be attracted to in terms of class design. I hope that Nastrond is altered back to its previous iteration of having 3 of them and that the notion that "Busy is bad and should be reduced" is not a universal goal applied to every class.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

- Mirage Dive should give a scale when used

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Y'know... That's actually an awesome idea? Right now the Jump->Mirage Dive combo feels so disconnected. Giving it a scale would really help it feel like it's part of the rotation again.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

If I already felt it was too busy and disorganized during the burst window at level 92, then introducing starcross would only make it worse.

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Dragoon was one of the most straightforward melee jobs to play. I think white mage is more up your alley my guy.

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Originally Posted by AstralSkye

Dragoon was one of the most straightforward melee jobs to play. I think white mage is more up your alley my guy.

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If you don't like the game's direction, just quit. It's the best thing you can do if you want things to change.

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Originally Posted by KaliG

Y'know... That's actually an awesome idea? Right now the Jump->Mirage Dive combo feels so disconnected. Giving it a scale would really help it feel like it's part of the rotation again.

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While it really doesn't have much to do with the overall problem, I actually also love this idea. I do forsee a concern around it only exacerbating the "there's too much weaving" complaint because it'd in many cases create an extra Wyrmwind usage in burst windows, but it would be a genuine improvement to the cohesiveness of the job and I think it's worth putting forward while we're talking about the overall design direction of DRG. Still, the weave concern would be there, so there's a decent chance we would either lose something else if they did take this into consideration, or at least not gain back our Nastronds, which means we would still have problems with the job being very dull at levels before we have access to Wyrmwind. Basically, it's a generally good idea, but won't necessarily help up resolve the current main problem.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

While it really doesn't have much to do with the overall problem, I actually also love this idea. I do forsee a concern around it only exacerbating the "there's too much weaving" complaint because it'd in many cases create an extra Wyrmwind usage in burst windows, but it would be a genuine improvement to the cohesiveness of the job and I think it's worth putting forward while we're talking about the overall design direction of DRG. Still, the weave concern would be there, so there's a decent chance we would either lose something else if they did take this into consideration, or at least not gain back our Nastronds, which means we would still have problems with the job being very dull at levels before we have access to Wyrmwind. Basically, it's a generally good idea, but won't necessarily help up resolve the current main problem.

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By reworking Life Surge into a weaponskill, you save the same amount of weaves as the removal of the NAS charges.

Plus, if more actions gave scales, then it'd be logical to raise the maximum amount of scales to 3 while keeping the cost of WWT at 2. In fact, WWT could consume all scales on use, dealing the damage it does now with 2 scales or 50% more potency with 3. And this kind of changes would make sure that you never use more than two WWTs per burst while also providing flexibility and management with our remaining gauge element.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

If you don't like the game's direction, just quit. It's the best thing you can do if you want things to change.

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This line of thinking is braindead. If everyone who was unhappy with the game direction left, and all you had left were people who were fine with it, then nothing would change. SE would have no reason to make changes for a player base who didn't want anything to change.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

By reworking Life Surge into a weaponskill, you save the same amount of weaves as the removal of the NAS charges.

Plus, if more actions gave scales, then it'd be logical to raise the maximum amount of scales to 3 while keeping the cost of WWT at 2. In fact, WWT could consume all scales on use, dealing the damage it does now with 2 scales or 50% more potency with 3. And this kind of changes would make sure that you never use more than two WWTs per burst while also providing flexibility and management with our remaining gauge element.

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Not a fan of making a defensive tool a GCD as this usually means it never gets used due to losing dps. It really should stay off GCD if kept, alterantively it could also be a trait (life leach and crits on drakesbane during life of the dragon for example)

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Originally Posted by jonimated

SE would have no reason to make changes for a player base who didn't want anything to change.

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It depends on the numbers. If enough people quit in response to changes to cause a financial loss relative to those like me who come back in response to the changes, then they would absolutely rethink the changes implemented. If you continue to sub, then all they are getting is increased financial success from the changes and obviously they will not revert them.

Unless what you're getting at is that, only a tiny portion of the community actually dislikes the changes. Which then yeah, you're right. Nothing would change. This is capitalism after all, the majority rules, and that's how it should be. Games don't exist for a minority who is attached to things being a way that most people dislike. That's crazy entitlement. If you're unhappy with the game, and it's not going to change, then the best thing you can do is move on. Not to get the game changed back to how you want it to be, but to just do better things with your short life. Maybe the people complaining about the changes are the majority though, and if that's true then you should absolutely unsubscribe from the game if you want things to change.

You act like they do not have complete awareness over the financial success of their game at any given point lol. It's laughable how simple and entitled the perspectives being posted here are. If you are with the majority, you will get what you want. If you don't get what you want, I hate to say it but that's just the way it is. You should have had better taste.

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Not a fan of making a defensive tool a GCD as this usually means it never gets used due to losing dps. It really should stay off GCD if kept, alterantively it could also be a trait (life leach and crits on drakesbane during life of the dragon for example)

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What they should do is just remove the damage component from life surge and make it purely defensive. Still keep it to being only one charge of nastrond per burst window though. It was way too many oGCD in the burst window.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Not a fan of making a defensive tool a GCD as this usually means it never gets used due to losing dps. It really should stay off GCD if kept, alterantively it could also be a trait (life leach and crits on drakesbane during life of the dragon for example)

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Life Surge is not a defensive tool currently so this would simply make it a GCD instead of an oGCD to remove the two weaves instead of losing two charges of NAS.

VPR doesn't have a defensive either. While it'd be nice to have one, it's not that big of a problem, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Unless what you're getting at is that, only a tiny portion of the community actually dislikes the changes.

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It's not specifically that a tiny portion of the community likes the changes. You're just severely overestimating how many people either like or don't like them at all. The people that post feedback in forums and on social media about FFXIV are such an unbelievably small minority of the overall player base. Whether you are on the side of liking the way the game is or not you have to understand on either side you are part of a minority. The vast majority either don't notice or don't care either way, and will never post about it.

As soon as you silence one vocal minority all you're left with is the other vocal minority, and a vast silent majority. Nothing would change.

I made an account in the forums just to make a thread like this, it seems someone beat me to it. All i have to ask of you and the team yoshida-san is "why?" actually why?.

My two cents as another DRG main. The reduction of Nast charges felt like it came out of nowhere.

DRG being an oGCD heavy and mobile job is its main appeal. A 2.5 gcd feels mind numbingly slow and unfun, but weaving and optimizing my jumps and dashes is fun and engaging. This is what has been the heart of the job and makes it stand out. All the leaping and zipping to a boss after it moves away, the Mix of range and melee feel with a touch of party support, makes it feel good as a job that will never be highest damage vs jobs like Sam and Viper.

I get the devs are busy homogenizing jobs before 8.0 to focus on Job identity again but... Why reduce what identity DRG still has in the meantime. For the people who complain about the weaving on DRG? There are many other jobs that have almost no weaves, which I personally find really slow and boring. Just maybe those are the jobs for them? Please leave something for those of us who enjoy the busy feel of DRG. The weaves are flexible within burst, it's really fun working to figure out which weaves I might need to adjust based on a mechanic.

All this to say, if not 3 then give us 2 charges of Nastrond. Make Mirage Drive give a scale charge so we can build up extra Wyrmwinds. This will give us interaction with the gauge and let us work at optimizing mirage and wyrnwind usage. I'm personally in the middle on Life surge. What I do know is that it's not currently used as a recovery tool, it's used for it's crit buff so it may be better to split those functions so our extra self mit/recovery can be used for when it's actually needed and maybe the crit is part of the rotation buffs? Reduce the cooldown on Winged Glide, 60 secs is silly long considering we're slowly losing our jumps.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Life Surge is not a defensive tool currently so this would simply make it a GCD instead of an oGCD to remove the two weaves instead of losing two charges of NAS.

VPR doesn't have a defensive either. While it'd be nice to have one, it's not that big of a problem, in my opinion.

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So you want it to just be a regular part of our combos? As a 6th hit? Thats quite a drastic change, if i understood you correctly (timers would need to be reworked etc).
I dont see the benefit in that if it would just be for flavor. Reducing it to a defensive would be simpler and add a gameplay option that currently doesnt exist in the kit.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

So you want it to just be a regular part of our combos? As a 6th hit? Thats quite a drastic change, if i understood you correctly (timers would need to be reworked etc).
I dont see the benefit in that if it would just be for flavor. Reducing it to a defensive would be simpler and add a gameplay option that currently doesnt exist in the kit.

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If it keeps its 40s CD, it's 3 extra GCDs every 2-minutes. This could have implications in the rotation, particularly with the timers of CT/CS and Power Surge, that the devs would have to consider. It would also provide more gauge management if they decide to have it give a scale on hit.

Making it into a defensive would mean losing 3 actions every 2-minutes just to get a defensive. Right now, the job is too hollow when it comes to decision making and its filler. Life Surge is ironically one of the few things that forces us to think and tackle each burst window differently, because our combo loop is not a multiple of 30. The best example would be the 4-minute window, where it's optimal to use a Life Surge on a 340 potency GCD because that's the second best option available. This may change with the new Piercing Talon opener but it can still be a thing in specific encounters due to downtime or in other full uptime burst windows.

So if this weaponskill keeps the same cool down of 40 seconds, perhaps it could be manipulated so that we get stronger GCDs in burst by pushing weaker ones out. Alternatively, and my personal preference, the new GCD would have a lower CD (30s or ideally 20s) so that it wouldn't just be automatically saved for burst and made the filler more engaging.

In any case, just removing Life Surge without giving something back would strip us of any thought when it comes to burst windows besides checking whether we have to fire WWT or if we're able to fire it after using any of our buffs but before the next Raiden Thrust.

The job is already too automatic and simple. Everything is given and we don't have to earn our burst. If we start removing actions without compensation, we'll quickly realize how hollow it's going to be. This is why I don't agree with removing Mirage Dive or Life Surge. Rework them so that they make sense and interact with the rotation and the kit instead of just taking them away; too many actions just deal damage without zero connection with each other.

Quick add: If they really wanted to free up weave windows they should have removed Life Surge and sped up Stardiver animation. That there is 3 free weaves without taking away actual damaging attacks. I personally do not know of any DRG mains that actually like Life Surge and Stardiver animation lock.

And for those who believe Life Surge is a defensive ability, that heal has never been available or mattered when extra self healing was needed. It only serves to function like SAM's Kaiten and we all know what happened there. Just give DRG an actual defensive ability instead of tiptoeing around a line no one wants to be there.

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Originally Posted by Xaiken

Quick add: If they really wanted to free up weave windows they should have removed Life Surge and sped up Stardiver animation. That there is 3 free weaves without taking away actual damaging attacks. I personally do not know of any DRG mains that actually like Life Surge and Stardiver animation lock.

And for those who believe Life Surge is a defensive ability, that heal has never been available or mattered when extra self healing was needed. It only serves to function like SAM's Kaiten and we all know what happened there. Just give DRG an actual defensive ability instead of tiptoeing around a line no one wants to be there.

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Stardiver's animation lock should stay as it is. It's a specific quality that makes it feel like our strongest jump. The potencies of STD and Starcross should be swapped to account for the former being a single weave and to provide actual power to the longer animation lock.

As for Life Surge, it's only similar to SAM's Kaiten in that it buffs a weaponskill but the comparison ends there. Kaiten had to be used with every single Iaijutsu, effectively meaning that you'd always need to save gauge for it. Life Surge has limited charges and can only be used with certain GCDs. As explained in my previous comment, Life Surge also changes every burst window slightly due to the GCD loop not being a multiple of 30.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

This may change with the new Piercing Talon opener...

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This is real... wow, that's pretty cursed x.x

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Originally Posted by AngelMercury

This is real... wow, that's pretty cursed x.x

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*flips tables*

Venturing onto the official forum for the first time in ages to add my voice to the crowd. DRG is a job whose identity is tied up in weaving oGCDs, and the Nastrond change makes our burst feel super hollow.

This change honestly makes me wonder if anyone on the dev team actually likes playing DRG and understands what's appealing about it. It feels like a change that's meant to make the job more appealing to people who don't play DRG by sanding off a "rough edge", but I really don't think that's a good approach since it makes it less fun for people who like the oGCD-focused style of DRG and probably isn't going to significantly change the opinions of people who main other jobs already anyway.

We shouldn't be turning every job into mush to address the complaints of people who don't like it when they're leveling it up to the new max level only to put it away for the rest of the expansion.

Even without 3x nastrond, and prior to getting starcross, the burst window is still busy. Call it a skill issue all you want, but the reality is it's just how it feels subjectively. I'm not talking about the difficulty of it, but the feeling of execution itself.

It's a good level of busy now, but it is objectively busy. Before it was just so busy that I didn't want to play the game, now it feels like a well designed product that is actually something I'd like to engage with.

Speak for yourselves and only yourselves when you say things like "it's meant to appeal to people who don't play dragoon" or "who asked for this?". Stop acting like you're the authority and only opinions that matter. Extremely entitled and embarrassing behavior. Less use of "we", more use of "me/I".

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Even without 3x nastrond, and prior to getting starcross, the burst window is still busy. Call it a skill issue all you want, but the reality is it's just how it feels subjectively. I'm not talking about the difficulty of it, but the feeling of execution itself.

It's a good level of busy now, but it is objectively busy. Before it was just so busy that I didn't want to play the game, now it feels like a well designed product that is actually something I'd like to engage with.

Speak for yourselves and only yourselves when you say things like "it's meant to appeal to people who don't play dragoon" or "who asked for this?". Stop acting like you're the authority and only opinions that matter. Extremely entitled and embarrassing behavior. Less use of "we", more use of "me/I".

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Okay, the last time I'm going to engage with you, but the counterevidence is all around you here. Look at how many people have said "I've never posted on the forums before, but came here to add my voice to those who are upset about this." Look at how this is by far the most active English thread about job design. Clearly, there is a substantial "we" who share this opinion. You don't? That's fine, go start a thread talking about how much you love the changes and see how much traction it gets. I'm sure you and the one other person in this whole thread who has defended the changes will have a great time talking between yourselves.

But let's also be clear about how busy the job is and has been. Right now at level 100 the job is less busy than it was at level 90 during Endwalker. During a two-minute burst window you have 9-11 OGCDs to weave vs 11-13. You're pre-Starcross, so you can take off an additional one. At level 90 currently you can get through your entire burst window with only one double weave in some situations and that's totally optimal. If you double-weave everything then half your burst window is spent just doing your basic GCD rotation with no OGCDs. And it only gets slower the earlier you go. I'm not saying the job needs to be as OGCD heavy during burst at level 100 as it was before the change, which btw is exactly +1 OGCD compared to EW DRG. But there were ways that could have been done that don't make those early levels feel as much worse as they do, and I hope that in the near future they opt to revert the Natrond change and instead put in place one of those alternatives.

And for those who want to check my math, here's a pastebin where I list out all of the OGCD usage during two-minute buff windows: https://pastebin.com/4aPke9Ks
Keep in mind that for one-minute windows you also remove Dragonfire and anything related to it as well as Life Surges at 80 and below.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Okay, the last time I'm going to engage with you, but the counterevidence is all around you here. Look at how many people have said "I've never posted on the forums before, but came here to add my voice to those who are upset about this." Look at how this is by far the most active English thread about job design. Clearly, there is a substantial "we" who share this opinion. You don't? That's fine, go start a thread talking about how much you love the changes and see how much traction it gets. I'm sure you and the one other person in this whole thread who has defended the changes will have a great time talking between yourselves.

But let's also be clear about how busy the job is and has been. Right now at level 100 the job is less busy than it was at level 90 during Endwalker. During a two-minute burst window you have 10-12 OGCDs to weave vs 11-13. You're pre-Starcross, so you can take off an additional one. At level 90 currently you can get through your entire burst window with only one double weave in some situations and that's totally optimal. If you double-weave everything then half your burst window is spent just doing your basic GCD rotation with no OGCDs. And it only gets slower the earlier you go. I'm not saying the job needs to be as OGCD heavy during burst at level 100 as it was before the change, which btw is exactly +1 OGCD compared to EW DRG. But there were ways that could have been done that don't make those early levels feel as much worse as they do, and I hope that in the near future they opt to revert the Natrond change and instead put in place one of those alternatives.

And for those who want to check my math, here's a pastebin where I list out all of the OGCD usage during two-minute buff windows: https://pastebin.com/pbpSwszc
Keep in mind that for one-minute windows you also remove Dragonfire and anything related to it as well as Life Surges at 80 and below.

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I mean it's fine to feel that way, but that's just not how the devs want the game to play. I agree with the devs, not the crybabies on the forums. Also no, I'm not going to make my own thread and let this one become an echo chamber of complaints. Sorry kid.

Keep your eyes on the prize, people.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...151987.svg.png

I think they don't even need to fully get rid of Life Surge, just get rid of the damage crit, and make it a flat cure potency off weapon skills delivered. DRG keeps the button, but it would now be removed from the damage rotation. Then bring back triple Nastronds.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I mean it's fine to feel that way, but that's just not how the devs want the game to play. I agree with the devs, not the crybabies on the forums. Also no, I'm not going to make my own thread and let this one become an echo chamber of complaints. Sorry kid.

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I think it's crazy work that a thread of 99.9% DRG players has not agreed with a single one of your opinions. All of this coming from a lv92 dragoon who didn't even try the full rotational burst with SC is even crazier.
As I said, WHM is right there. Much more inline with your skill ceiling.

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Originally Posted by AstralSkye

I think it's crazy work that a thread of 99.9% DRG players has not agreed with a single one of your opinions. All of this coming from a lv92 dragoon who didn't even try the full rotational burst with SC is even crazier.
As I said, WHM is right there. Much more inline with your skill ceiling.

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There are like 10-20 people trying to create an echo chamber of disapproval in this thread. Most people who are happy about the game spend their free time playing it, not whinging on the forums.

Like I said too, it's not about difficulty, it's about how the job feels. This game is not hard. Not at any level of play.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Most people who are happy about the game spend their free time playing it, not whinging on the forums.

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You can't possibly know that. You're just making things up and claiming them as fact to support your unhinged stance. You're being told from all sides here that there is a problem, and you're choosing to stick your fingers in your ears and call it an echo chamber simply because you disagree. It's classic "I'm not crazy everyone else is crazy" behavior and it's honestly embarrassing. You don't even have to take this weird stance. You can simply say you like how it is and move on, but you're choosing to go so much farther by telling everyone else they are wrong. It's pointless attention seeking at it's finest.

On top of all that, what many others have already pointed out, you're offering your opinion on something you currently don't have the full picture of. You're only level 92. You don't have the full kit and the highest level of DT content you could possibly have done at this point is a single dungeon. You're rendering a verdict on book you haven't read yet.

At this point it really seems like you're just saying words that you know. You keep saying things, but haven't backed any of it up. Grow up.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

You can't possibly know that. You're just making things up and claiming them as fact to support your unhinged stance. You're being told from all sides here that there is a problem, and you're choosing to stick your fingers in your ears and call it an echo chamber simply because you disagree. It's classic "I'm not crazy everyone else is crazy" behavior and it's honestly embarrassing. You don't even have to take this weird stance. You can simply say you like how it is and move on, but you're choosing to go so much farther by telling everyone else they are wrong. It's pointless attention seeking at it's finest.

On top of all that, what many others have already pointed out, you're offering your opinion on something you currently don't have the full picture of. You're only level 92. You don't have the full kit and the highest level of DT content you could possibly have done at this point is a single dungeon. You're rendering a verdict on book you haven't read yet.

At this point it really seems like you're just saying words that you know. You keep saying things, but haven't backed any of it up. Grow up.

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Nobody is crazy here, it's just weird that you think your perspective matters.

Not a Dragoon main by any means, but someone who's recently grown fond of the job after my main got a bunch of jank added to their kit.

As someone who those changes were probably aimed at, I get WHY the Nastrond changes were made, but they were definitely going to be controversial.

I think it was probably the best of two bad options. I've always found Life Surge to be the more annoying ability to weave in, but it being a form of 'skill expression' would've arguably been the more controversial skill to change or remove.

The change is strange, like part of me kinda gets it, for me I had to double weave all the ogcds just to fit burst, which was fine unless my ping was 6ft under. At lvl 100 it does feel so bad honestly, but it’s definitely a bit awkward at lower lvls though. It kinda feels like pre DT Drg where Nastrond had a cooldown, except the other 2 are gone now. In my opinion I think they should give us the 3 Nastronds and give it the Enchanted Moulinet treatment, it’d probably look/feel a bit better that way. They should also repurpose Mirage Dive into a gcd that you can use after 2 or 3 High Jumps, kind of like the old scales or Wrymwind Thrust

STOP responding to Hikari.

I think the only changes they really should make after all of this are 1) repurpose LIFE surge into a purely defensive skill that is used in response to taking damage, so maybe a dragoon can stay in the fray for non-lethal damage instances and immediately recover a significant portion of hp.

2) make it so mirage dive ready only has like a 10 second duration so optimization is even more streamlined.

Other than that though, dragoon feels pretty perfect now. The only two complaints I have are with life surge and the idea of delaying mirage dive so you can fit two in burst. Janky and unintuitive stuff like that is better left out of the game, lowering the duration of dive ready to like 10 seconds would probably solve the issue.

Low level dragoon is another story, but that's something that can be solved easily. It only really matters starting at level 70 because that's when ultimate raids start, but also dragoon at level 70 is already fun so I don't really get the complaints. Maybe the people complaining should do ultimate raids? Below that just maybe add AoE rotation sooner, I don't think it really matters though. How often are you going to be doing content below level 70 realistically speaking?

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Not a Dragoon main by any means, but someone who's recently grown fond of the job after my main got a bunch of jank added to their kit.

As someone who those changes were probably aimed at, I get WHY the Nastrond changes were made, but they were definitely going to be controversial.

I think it was probably the best of two bad options. I've always found Life Surge to be the more annoying ability to weave in, but it being a form of 'skill expression' would've arguably been the more controversial skill to change or remove.

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That's kind of why it wasn't my first thought as something to suggest dropping instead, but looking at the other replies at least in this thread, and I've seen it pretty commonly expressed by people in other forums as well, I've gotten the impression at this point that people don't really care for that "skill expression" and would much rather have lost Life Surge, or converted it to not being a damage increase and just being another self-heal, than lost the extra presses of Nastrond.

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Originally Posted by primarisgoazrr

The change is strange, like part of me kinda gets it, for me I had to double weave all the ogcds just to fit burst, which was fine unless my ping was 6ft under. At lvl 100 it does feel so bad honestly, but it’s definitely a bit awkward at lower lvls though. It kinda feels like pre DT Drg where Nastrond had a cooldown, except the other 2 are gone now. In my opinion I think they should give us the 3 Nastronds and give it the Enchanted Moulinet treatment, it’d probably look/feel a bit better that way. They should also repurpose Mirage Dive into a gcd that you can use after 2 or 3 High Jumps, kind of like the old scales or Wrymwind Thrust

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Personally I don't like the idea of adding any GCD that's part of the rotation some of the time but not always. Part of DRG's identity has basically always been that in terms of the GCD rotation it is a set sequence of skills that never changes, even all the way back in ARR when it was HT-IDC-Phleb-TTT-HT-TTT-Phleb-IDC-HT-TTT-Phleb-TTT. But to the larger point of it feeling awkward at lower levels, that's been my point since I started the thread. As someone who does a lot of UCoB and DSR, I would like the job to be fun and engaging at level 70 and level 90, and the three uses of Nastrond did that for me. Now that it's gone, I find myself bored playing the job even in ultimates. Level 70 even if you single-weave everything you run out of OGCDs to press for your burst halfway through your buff timers, which feels deeply unsatisfying.