Thank you for the Astro changes coming in dawntrail!

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...55/504/6b5.jpg

Gosh I would give up so much of modern AST's kit to go back to HW/SB AST's card kit. At least we get unique card buffs back. I will not miss ShB/EW's card kit.

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That's so perfect xDD gave me a good giggle thank you

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Yoshi p needs to STOP catering to these people, go play SMN or pokemon if you want cheap thrills

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Pokémon is one of the most complex/hard games there is around my dude, please do not compare the absence of healer gameplay to it.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Pokémon is one of the most complex/hard games there is around my dude, please do not compare the absence of healer gameplay to it.

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Tbf, Pokemon manages to hit the whole 'simple to pick up, complex to master' concept many here wish SE would at least attempt with some jobs rather well.

In pokemon:

You can just brute force the story mode as is with your starter and finish the story just fine.
You can also optimize strats, breed for IVs etc. to beat people in PvP or grind through Post game in gens that had one.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You just know some goobs are going to insist 'wow Seraphism so cool, clearly this means we're going to take so much more damage that we won't even have time to spell the word Broil, let alone cast it!' and then the content hits as hard as currently (that is, not enough to require a healer in dungeon runs), it's like a broken record

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We also have this response from YoshiP regarding healer dps and healing requirements from one of the EW Media Tour interviews

tldr they claim they try to increase healing requirements, but they also don't plan on going so far that the healer has to constantly cast healing spells and keep track of their mp, or else that makes clears too reliant on how good your healer is. Increase in Item Levels as content ages lowers healing requirements too, and it's "inevitable" that leaves healers with less things to do.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

We also have this response from YoshiP regarding healer dps and healing requirements from one of the EW Media Tour interviews

tldr they claim they try to increase healing requirements, but they also don't plan on going so far that the healer has to constantly cast healing spells and keep track of their mp, or else that makes clears too reliant on how good your healer is. Increase in Item Levels as content ages lowers healing requirements too, and it's "inevitable" that leaves healers with less things to do.

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No matter what they do, it's useless. we are uncertain of the card's specific, but the defensive and heal cards are either useless and not fun, or too OP and people will bitch, there is no inbetween, because the supposed effect are really basic, not some brand new elaborate thing that's exclusive to AST. Other healer has to be able to perfectly heal the same fight without the cards (Because if you don't, then the basic AST kit will be weaker at healing than other jobs, which is probably not the way to go)

It's precisely why HW/SB era was good. each healer focused on one specialty and worked well with each other.
In a raid setting:
WHM was the abundance of heal, so the other healer can focus on their thing. Their damage in Cleric stance was very decent too. Regen was good so they could stay in the stance for longer.
SCH got the damage, which was always a good thing, all those DoTs was fun for most SCH mains i knew.
and AST was the damage top up, along with the flexibility to certain situation with cards.

And now, i don't need to remind anyone of now. Not in progs but if the team is decent you could solo heal ALOT of fights on reclears. They have increased the healer's heal potency, increased the damage on screw ups, but overall the heal checks ain't that high.

lead to a super stale state of healers. I felt like the balance team went the WoW route where they imagined healer has to heal constantly, but the fight design team went as they did since the early day.

As someone who has played every single version of Ast this game has gone through, my fave is still Stormblood’s Ast (post 1.5 cast time on gcds) and it won’t be changing in DT, however I personally feel DT’s version is a step back into the direction of where I liked Ast.


Initial HW Ast: worse designed Ast by far couldn’t even do its primary role to an acceptable state, actively was a hinderance to take an ast over Whm/Sch.


2.2 HW Ast: best ast of HW had good complexity and felt more balanced to Whm, Sch was still a league of its own

2.4 HW ast: Overtuned to all fuck and the starting point of all current Ast design troubles , this is where balance or bust became a thing and shouldn’t have ever been a thing, yet people parroted it long past when they fixed this overtime meant (Balance was 20% dmg up ST and 10% for party, double Ast was viable comp)


SB Ast: still had some complexity, lost a little with Spear change to crit up, but for the better, same for cleric stance removal, overall the healthiest Ast at this point, yet “Balance or bust” remained prominent outcry and due to this ShB changes happened


ShB Ast: do you like vanilla ice cream? Do you like it with nuts or jimmies? Sorry not allowed the old strawberry or chocolate flavours here anymore only vanilla but hey we can give an extra scoop for you personally


EW Ast: 2nd worst Ast by a fair margin instead of improving ShB or reverting back to SB they somehow made it feel worse.


DT ast to me feels like the devs are trying to merge SB and ShB Ast but the thing had to give up was rng.

Can’t do balance or bust memes still but it looks like it is trying to add strawberry or chocolate back into it, just instead of a server deciding which flavour you get, you are getting all 3 regardless whether you like them all or not.


I personally see more growth potential in DT Ast than I have done with ShB and EW Ast, it doesn’t feel like it is fixed in its design of “you can only buff damage with cards”

I still remember so many leveling dungeon runs with no mit tanks and the Bole card was the best card in the deck for those scenarios, and it feels DT version is moving back to actually feeling like me the Ast can do clutch heals/mit vs bad players again (bad players will always exist and Ast having ways to mitigate it for yourself I loved)

Now if only they could bring back buff manipulation again, like RR and Time Dialation (still stings they are referenced in Ast questline)

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

The continual blaming of casuals is also getting old, even I was salty at them to begin with going into SHB with but ykno what? A lot of the people who want things simplified are also the more hardcore or midcore, the ones pushing content and realise hey x or y is pretty annoying for me. Also a lot of the hardcore pc players are already using a variety of third party tools to make the game easier for them anyway all while crapping on other people for playing poorly. Hilarious considering they are using more crutches to play than the casuals they crap on, one AST enjoyer ik wouldn't even play the job without his macro to play his cards for him, still considers himself better than others. Meanwhile I moved my party ui closer to the middle of my screen to allow for faster swapping between targets during burst for throwing cards. Casuals often don't even leave feedback at all, they play or they don't. Only the more invested players leave the feedback most of the time. They matter just as much as you or I do, much as I miss my positionals on MNK.

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This so true oh my lord. Even my friends do this. I've actually heard friends saying "I can do this on any job it should be easy for you!" to people all while streaming ultimates of them using that mini map that shows you where all the mechanics will be, or the the one that puts important debuffs big over the middle of the screen, and also the one with arrows showing where to look or go. It's bananas.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

We also have this response from YoshiP regarding healer dps and healing requirements from one of the EW Media Tour interviews

tldr they claim they try to increase healing requirements, but they also don't plan on going so far that the healer has to constantly cast healing spells and keep track of their mp, or else that makes clears too reliant on how good your healer is. Increase in Item Levels as content ages lowers healing requirements too, and it's "inevitable" that leaves healers with less things to do.

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I will give Sqaure-enix credit, they absolutely amped up tank busters in endwalker savage compared to shadowbringers. The job I felt like I could cover 95% of them alone was astrologian. *pug scholars can only energy drain it it turns out lol* Unfortunately tank defensives scaled a bit too well, and they are too strong now. If that wasn't there tank busters would've been in a good spot this expansion. The other healer and mp management and stuff, yeah, the mark was definitely not even close there.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

DT ast to me feels like the devs are trying to merge SB and ShB Ast but the thing had to give up was rng.

Now if only they could bring back buff manipulation again, like RR and Time Dialation (still stings they are referenced in Ast questline)

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This is exactly how I feel about Astro.

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Originally Posted by KanataNanaya

And now, i don't need to remind anyone of now. Not in progs but if the team is decent you could solo heal ALOT of fights on reclears. They have increased the healer's heal potency, increased the damage on screw ups, but overall the heal checks ain't that high.
.

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Do y'all remember how fun it was to heal the end of e12s when it's just destroying the raid constantly? Like your first clear, not farm when the phase got so short it didn't matter. Can we have more of that happening and preferrably not the final mechanic of a fight.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

As someone who has played every single version of Ast this game has gone through, my fave is still Stormblood’s Ast (post 1.5 cast time on gcds) and it won’t be changing in DT, however I personally feel DT’s version is a step back into the direction of where I liked Ast.


Initial HW Ast: worse designed Ast by far couldn’t even do its primary role to an acceptable state, actively was a hinderance to take an ast over Whm/Sch.


2.2 HW Ast: best ast of HW had good complexity and felt more balanced to Whm, Sch was still a league of its own

2.4 HW ast: Overtuned to all fuck and the starting point of all current Ast design troubles , this is where balance or bust became a thing and shouldn’t have ever been a thing, yet people parroted it long past when they fixed this overtime meant (Balance was 20% dmg up ST and 10% for party, double Ast was viable comp)


SB Ast: still had some complexity, lost a little with Spear change to crit up, but for the better, same for cleric stance removal, overall the healthiest Ast at this point, yet “Balance or bust” remained prominent outcry and due to this ShB changes happened


ShB Ast: do you like vanilla ice cream? Do you like it with nuts or jimmies? Sorry not allowed the old strawberry or chocolate flavours here anymore only vanilla but hey we can give an extra scoop for you personally


EW Ast: 2nd worst Ast by a fair margin instead of improving ShB or reverting back to SB they somehow made it feel worse.


DT ast to me feels like the devs are trying to merge SB and ShB Ast but the thing had to give up was rng.

Can’t do balance or bust memes still but it looks like it is trying to add strawberry or chocolate back into it, just instead of a server deciding which flavour you get, you are getting all 3 regardless whether you like them all or not.


I personally see more growth potential in DT Ast than I have done with ShB and EW Ast, it doesn’t feel like it is fixed in its design of “you can only buff damage with cards”

I still remember so many leveling dungeon runs with no mit tanks and the Bole card was the best card in the deck for those scenarios, and it feels DT version is moving back to actually feeling like me the Ast can do clutch heals/mit vs bad players again (bad players will always exist and Ast having ways to mitigate it for yourself I loved)

Now if only they could bring back buff manipulation again, like RR and Time Dialation (still stings they are referenced in Ast questline)

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The thing is, even at the most generous interpretation, this isn't a step forwards by any means. If anything, it's purely a step to the side. They're restoring a modicum of the effects of the cards, at the expense of the interesting and fun gameplay of having to make do with what you get. It's all well and good to cope and pray that they'll add manipulation back to the job, but even then... would it even matter? Part of the joy of AST, I felt, was having no two pulls feel the same, even on reclear duty where everyone was on the same page and mistakes were extremely uncommon. Saying that you think the DT version lets you feel like AST can do clutch heals/mit vs bad players seems like such a hollow statement to me, bc it tells me that you don't like... idk, process the rest of the kit? Is EW AST suddenly unable to do clutch heals bc it doesn't have an extra 60s mitigation/heal button that every other healer does? Giving cards unique effects but making them completely static utility buttons doesn't do any more than giving us an extra charge of ED or Exaltaton, at the end of the day. You're not going to have access to more on demand spotting tools than you would have if they just increased the amount of our currently existing tools. And people who say this are really starting to confuse me.

It genuinely feels like people just see card vfx on generic, static healing tools with less complexity than aetherflow and just get excited about some fantasization about a return to stormblood when all the things that made stormblood cards aren't coming back. Like, this might be a hot take, but I don't think the effects of StB cards were what made them interesting. It was the randomness, as well as all the manipulation and control you had over them. All we got now is draw, and then playx4. And you can hope for more manipulation, or more buff transferral on the cards but... does it even matter, when you aren't going to have to even think about whether to burn a card with something like royal road or play it wholesale beyond the initial prog of a fight? How is this any more decision making than a scholar deciding if they're going to sacred soil or energy drain?

DT AST might have potential (like, a lot of it. It has to have a lot of potential, bc this base is so boring and simple that it really can't get much more braindead) but square enix has shown that they can only remove complexity from the healer role, and not add it, so I personally expect this job to just be boring, static, and painted with the illusion of the most fun mechanical system this game had. I'm not gonna ask people to like the ShB/EW system as much as I did, but I am going to say... do people really think this is more like stormblood, and is there anything the systems have in common beyond 'card do thing' in the absence of any kind of manipulation, RNG, or other system that ensures that the class continues to give you a unique experience several dozen pulls into a fight? I played AST bc I wanted each pull to feel different, to keep a long night of prog from blurring together from just pressing the same button over and over. With square enix's committal to killing any deviation from their assigned standard of play (goodbye non-standard BLM), I'm extremely unlikely to believe that AST will escape that same fate, and insisting that these DT changes are a step in the right direction when all we get is 'unique card effects' in exchange for 'literally everything else but the vfx' tells me that people excited about this only see AST's cards at their most superficial level. This isn't a brand new baseline, this is the best we're gonna get.

I would love to be wrong, I really would. I would be so overjoyed at playing an AST that once again requires me to think on the fly every pull without settling into a dull, spreadsheeted routine bc that is what all iterations of AST have had (yes, even ShB/EW. Even you have to admit that optimizing those classes took on the fly thinking) that the sting of being wrong would be completely irrelevant. But like forsakenroe said, I'm just gonna be a realist here. We aren't getting more than this, and just adding royal road to the 4 static cards we got wouldn't change a thing. You'd get a bump of decision making in prog, maybe, assuming that it doesn't just turn into 'buff the balance' and then once you settle into your routine you press your malefic rotation until the end of time.

And ultimately speaking, I still shouldn't have to pray that something goes wrong in a fight in order for me to have fun. AST had something for me to do, now it doesn't. And I don't think I'm ever getting it back.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

We also have this response from YoshiP regarding healer dps and healing requirements from one of the EW Media Tour interviews

tldr they claim they try to increase healing requirements, but they also don't plan on going so far that the healer has to constantly cast healing spells and keep track of their mp, or else that makes clears too reliant on how good your healer is. Increase in Item Levels as content ages lowers healing requirements too, and it's "inevitable" that leaves healers with less things to do.

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If they're telling us it's inevitable that we will eventually not be healing much, if at all, then what is with their continued refusal to give us stuff to do that isn't healing? AST's card system was 'stuff to do that wasn't healing'. Ppl may not like EW/ShB system but the thing it did better than StB was be that added complexity to a dps rotation. It wasn't so overly important that if shit hit the fan or prog needed extra attention that you couldn't just drop it to focus on healing without being completely fucked over by not drawing cards that could potentially help with a bad scenario, but it wasn't so useless that once you did have a fight on a smooth lock that you were left without something to engage in and optimize. That's why I prefer the ShB/EW card system, bc of where it actually fit into your kit. It wasn't part of your support toolkit, bc that would mean AST would either be a weaker healer base with a random chance to be average, or a decent healer base with a random chance to be stronger than average. Both of those have major flaws, due to how fights have been continually designed. A weaker AST who relies on RNG to make up for it is needlessly punished by bad luck, and a stronger AST who doesn't have to rely on RNG to make up for it ends up at a point where the only thing they're drawing for is for something that immediately impacts the situation, and outside of prog the only situation is 'optimize more damage' bc you've solved everything else. The ShB EW kit definitely had room to grow, and have 6 flat% raw dps buffs could definitely have changed and become more unique, but rather than expand on it they decided that it would be better to remove the illusion of choice that stb cards in current fight design would have had, and just not even make the lack of decision making they provided as clear as day. And this might just be me, but I don't think that's a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...55/504/6b5.jpg

Gosh I would give up so much of modern AST's kit to go back to HW/SB AST's card kit. At least we get unique card buffs back. I will not miss ShB/EW's card kit.

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I am absolutely gonna tell people how the deep magic works when it's pretty clear they forgot if they think DT cards are the best thing ever bc they took one aspect of StB card design, dropped literally everything else, while parading this around as a good thing. It's just yet another 5 steps away from stormblood but this time with the illusion of a step forwards. Unique effects mean fuck-all if we can't do anything with them but use or do not use them. They've got more in common with exaltation and essential dignity than anything that came out of stormblood cards. But I guess I needed to 'play stormblood' in order to see cards as, idk, more than just their effects and instead as the sum of their parts, huh? Because they aren't going to add complexity. They're gonna look at all the former WHM mains and misled stormblood AST players picking up the job, think 'rework successful', and then dance around the idea of adding complexity and skill back to the job bc that's a risk and they do not take risks. How do I know this? Well, considering we've had 3 expansions now of simplifying AST, I think at this point expecting the 4th to magically change the pipeline when it's worked for them so far is just like, the definition of insanity.

It just reads as extreme delusion and cope to look at DT and think 'omg stormblood cards yaaaayy' and thinking about all the ways you're gonna think soooo hard about how to use them when the answer is 'the exact same way you used ED and exaltation but now a card shows up over their head'. But hey, what do I know about healing design? I've only been maining the role since shadowbringers, right? I can't possibly know how current fight and healer design work.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Do y'all remember how fun it was to heal the end of e12s when it's just destroying the raid constantly? Like your first clear, not farm when the phase got so short it didn't matter. Can we have more of that happening and preferrably not the final mechanic of a fight.

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God I miss Aspho. Curtain Call, FoF, Death's Toll... (the macrocosmos cheese felt like an oversight, and that a genuine healcheck was intended there). It gave me hope that rapid AoE healing checks and enforced GCD burn would be more commonplace.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

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I’m just going to explain my view on why I think DT ast has potential.

DT ast has 4 cards at a time when drawn, this flips to the other cards on next drawing of the deck, so 1st set is always going to be rng on what we get but becomes known for every subsequent drawing.

Now a system like that isn’t bad but definitely easy and requires little to think about.

This system however CAN become more complex depending on effects of the cards

What we know so far:

2 cards will be damage
2 cards will be restorative
2 cards will be mitigation
Lord/Lady will be drawn as well

We are ensured 1 of each type.

Again simple and a downgrade to SB, whether it’s an upgrade over ShB/EW will depend on each card’s effect specifically.

Say 1 damage card is 6% ranged 3% melee, and the other damage card is the inverse. This then forces you to think who best put card on depending on party like you do now for optimising. This is now set to rotate between both after 1st one drawn so gone are days of all melee cards or all ranged cards getting drawn.

Next let’s look at restorative

Restorative is vague and opens up some paths, it could be a burst heal (Lady exists so I don’t think they will do this), it could be a regen heal, it could be a burst mp heal (say 2k), could be an mp regen. The mp burst being 2k can matter and even be a dps increase for say BLM who can get extra Despair in, it isn’t a lot but you do have to start thinking is this mp boost beneficial now or later. This is the potential DT card system has, it can be made more complex, whether it will, is down to the devs(slim hope but it is there).


Mitigation cards can also be made in a few directions, shield/buff/debuff, I didn’t see any card hitting enemy so I doubt debuff card exists for DT, but it effectively could in the future if devs want to add it, it is an option now whether as before it couldn’t be because every card needed to be melee or ranged and provide damage up.



For me and for what I can personally see DT as an upgrade over ShB and EW, but it really will come down to whether or not card effects boil down to just 4 effects with 2 coats of paint each or 8 different effects, if the former it’s going to feel as boring as ShB -> EW but even slower to interact with cards if the latter, it has way more potential to retain some complexity even if draws are slower but ensured.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I’m just going to explain my view on why I think DT ast has potential.

DT ast has 4 cards at a time when drawn, this flips to the other cards on next drawing of the deck, so 1st set is always going to be rng on what we get but becomes known for every subsequent drawing.

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Source on that? If I remember correctly YoshiP said that the first set we get won't be RNG. It'll always be lord's set first.

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Now a system like that isn’t bad but definitely easy and requires little to think about.

This system however CAN become more complex depending on effects of the cards

What we know so far:

2 cards will be damage
2 cards will be restorative
2 cards will be mitigation
Lord/Lady will be drawn as well

We are ensured 1 of each type.

Again simple and a downgrade to SB, whether it’s an upgrade over ShB/EW will depend on each card’s effect specifically.

Say 1 damage card is 6% ranged 3% melee, and the other damage card is the inverse. This then forces you to think who best put card on depending on party like you do now for optimising. This is now set to rotate between both after 1st one drawn so gone are days of all melee cards or all ranged cards getting drawn.

Next let’s look at restorative

Restorative is vague and opens up some paths, it could be a burst heal (Lady exists so I don’t think they will do this), it could be a regen heal, it could be a burst mp heal (say 2k), could be an mp regen. The mp burst being 2k can matter and even be a dps increase for say BLM who can get extra Despair in, it isn’t a lot but you do have to start thinking is this mp boost beneficial now or later. This is the potential DT card system has, it can be made more complex, whether it will, is down to the devs(slim hope but it is there).


Mitigation cards can also be made in a few directions, shield/buff/debuff, I didn’t see any card hitting enemy so I doubt debuff card exists for DT, but it effectively could in the future if devs want to add it, it is an option now whether as before it couldn’t be because every card needed to be melee or ranged and provide damage up.



For me and for what I can personally see DT as an upgrade over ShB and EW, but it really will come down to whether or not card effects boil down to just 4 effects with 2 coats of paint each or 8 different effects, if the former it’s going to feel as boring as ShB -> EW but even slower to interact with cards if the latter, it has way more potential to retain some complexity even if draws are slower but ensured.

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If you only get one dps card a minute, and one is better on ranged, and the other is better on melee, than yes it requires you to think about who is best. Once. Bc for the rest of the fight, and every single pull after, you will have the exact same ranged dps card, and the exact same melee card at the same time, every time. Meaning all you need to do is figure out who does more than their respective pair in the 2min burst, and just card them at the same time, every single window. Forever. That doesn't sound like decision making to me. Even assuming that the 'first set drawn is up is RNG' like you said, which I really don't think it is bc that would mean they straight up lied when they said, and I quote 'we have removed RNG from cards', all that means is that you have exactly two different bursts, which never change throughout the fight. One where you card the strong melee first, and one where you card the strong ranged. There's no redrawing, no consideration for seals, and no thought into it. I could entirely close my eyes and be 100% optimal on DT AST.

For restorative, whether it's a burst heal, HoT, or mp regen doesn't matter. The answer to when and where you use them is the same. Either save them for spot healing, which is what you should be using ED for, use them as part of your healplan (making them completely static), or don't use them (the case most of the time) and let them be overwritten. Mp regen is even worse bc that means that it essentially becomes a damage card for exclusively BLM and DRK, practically forcing you into requiring one of them in your comp in order for the card to be worthwhile. And it won't make you think. For a DRK, you can just throw it on them in your burst after they've burned their mana on edge, and for BLM you just put it on them after they use manafont. Which will be the same time, every time. We don't need more healing tools as an AST. We have plenty, and if fights are suddenly designed around requiring that level of ST stuff, then why the fuck how are the other 3 healers going to deal with it?

For mitigative, the answer to when you use them will be the same. Either don't use them, or throw them on the tank as they pull mobs or take a buster. Either it wasn't required, making it useless (assuming you've already expended all your exalt/CI, which if you haven't, why have mit cards when we already don't need our existing mit tools?) or it was required, making me wonder again, how do the other healers deal with it. Oh, aquaveil and benison has an extra charge (presumably)? Great. Why do we need mit cards if just giving more CI/exalt stacks was an option that they're gonna go with anyways? Is it just to give people the illusion that utility cards are better and doing something?

I don't know what potential you see in this braindead, failed design of a rework, but I just can't look at it without seeing a bunch of wasted space. And even if it has potential, this is square enix. Complexity isn't going to come out of nowhere unless they do a complete 180 on how they approach job design. And seeing what every other role and class is going through right now? Lmao.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

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I'm waiting till I see the full kit from the media tour before I make a full judgement on the card system. If it's not fun enough I will voice my dissatisfaction if needed. But for now, I'm not really interested in debating walls of text when we don't have all of the info on DT AST's kit.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

That's so perfect xDD gave me a good giggle thank you

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You're very welcome haha.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Mitigation cards can also be made in a few directions, shield/buff/debuff, I didn’t see any card hitting enemy so I doubt debuff card exists for DT, but it effectively could in the future if devs want to add it, it is an option now whether as before it couldn’t be because every card needed to be melee or ranged and provide damage up.

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Probably not a debuff at this point. The trailer shows all the cards played on players like you said. Unless one of the defensives acts like Eye for an Eye from back in the day.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

I'm waiting till I see the full kit from the media tour before I make a full judgement on the card system. If it's not fun enough I will voice my dissatisfaction if needed. But for now, I'm not really interested in debating walls of text when we don't have all of the info on DT AST's kit.

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"Wait until the job action trailer." "Wait until the LL." "Wait until the media tour." "Wait until live." "Wait until the first tier." "Wait until the ulti."

The EW experience, take two. But I'm sure things will be different, this time!

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Originally Posted by Kissune

"Wait until the job action trailer." "Wait until the LL." "Wait until the media tour." "Wait until live." "Wait until the first tier." "Wait until the ulti."

The EW experience, take two. But I'm sure things will be different, this time!

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''Wait till 8.0'' when you ask why AST's difficulty and skill expressive gameplay was removed as we all inevitably play it in the beginning of DT.

Just wait dude, things will get better I promise! Not like we have 4 expansions to go off of and the design of healers being chipped away at over and over and over and over and over.

None of us need to play AST in DT to know its a complete downgrade in complexity, nuance, APM or skill expressive gameplay. People thinking a single target mitigation/heal card is going to be any more interesting than another stack of ED or Exaltation (if they did add it) have no idea what they're talking about

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Originally Posted by Kissune

"Wait until the job action trailer." "Wait until the LL." "Wait until the media tour." "Wait until live." "Wait until the first tier." "Wait until the ulti."

The EW experience, take two. But I'm sure things will be different, this time!

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Awright mate. Does your crystal ball tell you what all the cards and abilities do too? Such a doomsayer, you'd think that you ran a Y2K blog or something, geez.

And you're saying this is like the EW experience all over? You're the one aggressively championing for EW AST in this very thread.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

I am absolutely gonna tell people how the deep magic works when it's pretty clear they forgot if they think DT cards are the best thing ever ramble ramble[/I]

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Where exactly did I say the DT cards are the best thing ever? I didn't say that once and added what tweaks to them I would like in future, I think the delusional one is yourself. Twisting words so you can have something to be mad at. I've said it's closer to what I like and I will enjoy it much more than current cards. Your reading comprehension still needs work I guess.

They did have some nice healing checks in EW, as seen by your missing of certain mechanics in EW raids. Yoshi P has stated they intend to change fight design. It doesn't guarantee us a more intsense healing situation by any means, but I remain positive. And even if it's similar to EW, I will still enjoy these DT cards more than EW ones. Much as that seems to bother you so much to the point you would straight up lie about what I've been saying so you can argue against your own made up narrative.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

Awright mate. Does your crystal ball tell you what all the cards and abilities do too? Such a doomsayer, you'd think that you ran a Y2K blog or something, geez.

And you're saying this is like the EW experience all over? You're the one aggressively championing for EW AST in this very thread.

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Doesn't matter what they do if the only thing you can do with them is play them at the same spots every time. They're either boring AF effects or super interesting ones, and either way I'm going to ask 'why are these on cards, and why did we lose an interesting mechanic in exchange for a bunch of utility we don't need?' I don't need exact tooltips to be able to say 'I think having a bunch of static tools are really boring'. Lustrate and excog are both healing tools on the same gauge, one is more interesting than the other. I still think aetherflow is boring. Is that something I need a media tour to tell me?

Also, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that A. I think EW AST is better than ShB or StB (I don't) B. I think EW AST is pure perfection with no room to grow(It isn't) and C. I am not capable of believing more than one thing (ie: EW AST had nuance, skill expression, and an enjoyable playstyle while also being somewhat samey, little more than a distraction in lower-end content, and optimization that takes logging to really see the effects of instead of being represented in game) (I am)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kissune

Doesn't matter what they do if the only thing you can do with them is play them at the same spots every time. They're either boring AF effects or super interesting ones, and either way I'm going to ask 'why are these on cards, and why did we lose an interesting mechanic in exchange for a bunch of utility we don't need?' I don't need exact tooltips to be able to say 'I think having a bunch of static tools are really boring'. Lustrate and excog are both healing tools on the same gauge, one is more interesting than the other. I still think aetherflow is boring. Is that something I need a media tour to tell me?

Also, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that A. I think EW AST is better than ShB or StB (I don't) B. I think EW AST is pure perfection with no room to grow(It isn't) and C. I am not capable of believing more than one thing (ie: EW AST had nuance, skill expression, and an enjoyable playstyle while also being somewhat samey, little more than a distraction in lower-end content, and optimization that takes logging to really see the effects of instead of being represented in game) (I am)

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Kinda annoying to sift through your opinions when you throw walls of text at people. Add some tldr's to your posts man. It'll give you time to reflect on the fact that you're either raging or trolling on an online forum about a video game.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Where exactly did I say the DT cards are the best thing ever? I didn't say that once and added what tweaks to them I would like in future, I think the delusional one is yourself. Twisting words so you can have something to be mad at. I've said it's closer to what I like and I will enjoy it much more than current cards. Your reading comprehension still needs work I guess.

They did have some nice healing checks in EW, as seen by your missing of certain mechanics in EW raids. Yoshi P has stated they intend to change fight design. It doesn't guarantee us a more intsense healing situation by any means, but I remain positive. And even if it's similar to EW, I will still enjoy these DT cards more than EW ones. Much as that seems to bother you so much to the point you would straight up lie about what I've been saying so you can argue against your own made up narrative.

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I sure love how you keep dismissing everything I say while getting your panties in a twist by saying I'm ignoring what you're saying and then insulting me over it. Glass houses, bestie.

And yes, you have the same issue the volt guy has where you talk as if the only defining feature of stormblood cards was their unique effects on target and not any of the stuff around it. Implying DT cards are better than ShB/EW cards bc they take one step towards stormblood and five steps back just feels like, you know, delusion. But hey, reading exactly what you say is hard when all you do is pout about how I'm apparently bad at taking 'DT cards are more of what I like' at face value when DT cards have less in common with stormblood cards than EW ones do. But go off. You can insist that you're gonna 'ask for card manipulation back' but you have to be real with yourself that they don't add complexity back to jobs that lose it. Especially not AST. It's had 4 straight expansions of losing complexity. Each time it's a brand new 'base to build off of' and every time instead of building off that base they just make a new, easier one. And it frustrates me that you are coping so hard that it'll be different this time. I honestly wish I had your level of faith in square enix after having your main destroyed in front of you more than once. It seems like you're happier in your delusions, and I almost envy that.

They had healchecks, yes. But I rarely felt like I was being challenged as an AST (literally just death's toll) and not just as a healer. Wroth of flames was actually extremely fun on AST bc I had to do my 2min at the start of double dragons without lightspeed in order to have it up to heal through the akh morns. That was one mechanic. In a 20 minute fight. In an ultimate. And then in TOP, there was exactly one singular healcheck, which was trivialized by the fact that it was the only one. As it turns out, if you have one or even multiple healcheck but you have them minutes apart, there is no punishment for just... blowing your entire healing kit on it and trivializing it. I used basically everything on bluescreen to heal it. Bc I didn't need to heal at all beyond a single aoe regen for the entire next phase and a half. That's what I mean when I say that healchecks aren't there. They show up once a fight, and are completely trivialized by being the only one in a fight. We need multiple healchecks over time, to strain out our resources and expose the weaknesses AND strengths of each healer. And I just don't see that happening, sorry.

YoshiP said he'd change it in EW too, y'know. He says a lot of things, doesn't he? A lot of things that don't come true lmao.

It doesn't bother me that you're going to like the DT cards over EW. Why would that bother me? The part that bothers me is your reasoning for it is just so nonsensical. You insist it's because they're more like Stormblood cards, but from my perspective they have only superficial commonalities at the cost of everything interesting about them. But no yeah, keep insulting me over what you continue to make up about my own arguments while accusing me of doing the same. Surely that'll help us reach an understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

Kinda annoying to sift through your opinions when you throw walls of text at people. Add some tldr's to your posts man. It'll give you time to reflect on the fact that you're either raging or trolling on an online forum about a video game.

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Then don't interact lmao? I'm not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to interact with my posts. I have a lot to say, my bad I guess for not just rolling over and accepting whatever slop SE gives us and whatever weird delusions the fanboys invent to justify the job getting a lobotomy.

But yeah, sorry a wall of text scares you. Knowing that reading is too hard for you puts a lot of your opinions on simplification into perspective.

Edit: Oh right, just for you. Tl;dr - I think you and the other person are incredibly confusing bc I don't understand how anyone can look at DT "cards" and think 'yaaaayy stormblood' unless they think stormblood cards were just about their effects and nothing more. The delusion comes in when you think anything is gonna change between now, the tour, live, and the real fights. Unless JP is up in arms about the changes, idk I'm not JP, nothing is gonna change.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

"Wait until the job action trailer." "Wait until the LL." "Wait until the media tour." "Wait until live." "Wait until the first tier." "Wait until the ulti."

The EW experience, take two. But I'm sure things will be different, this time!

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This. So much this. The "just wait and see" people are so much worse than any open fanboy. It's so tiring and weaselly.

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Originally Posted by Kissune

No proof of claims

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So you have no proof I said what you claim I did. Ok, great! Glad we established that. You've been nothing but aggressive and insulting from the start, hell you went so far as look people up on discord. I know this is your first time dealing with this AST rodeo of changes you really dislike, maybe in a few years you can calm down.

Ah bless the ignore list.

In other news! NA media tour seems to be done on the content creator side, hopeful we can find out more on the new cards and other abilities soon! Maybe next week? Do we know if there is anything at all for EU creators? I swear on one of the LL they mentioned something on the 30th but I can't remember if I am mistaking the benchmark for that or what. I'll be glad to return to AST healing for the coming tier thought, I can run again with my fave coheal! That was probably the most sad thing swapping off healer, not being coheal with my friend anymore even if we remain in the same group. I'll take my main back to AST and use alts for the other jobs I wanna play I think.

They claim they've ignored me, but I just know they're obsessed enough to click view post every time ;3 Especially considering I cut off the conversation last time but they just couldn't help but continue.

Either way, feel free to use this as a golden case study of someone so deep into their own delusions that if anyone challenges it they gotta stick their fingers in their ears and scream louder. Either way, all good for me to not some have weirdo replying to all my posts rambling on with their delusions of the future, I really do hope they enjoy their watered down scholar. And if they truly are a fan of stormblood AST, I expect them to be right back here by my side come live demanding the exact same things I was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kissune

Then don't interact lmao? I'm not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to interact with my posts. I have a lot to say, my bad I guess for not just rolling over and accepting whatever slop SE gives us and whatever weird delusions the fanboys invent to justify the job getting a lobotomy.

But yeah, sorry a wall of text scares you. Knowing that reading is too hard for you puts a lot of your opinions on simplification into perspective.

Edit: Oh right, just for you. Tl;dr - I think you and the other person are incredibly confusing bc I don't understand how anyone can look at DT "cards" and think 'yaaaayy stormblood' unless they think stormblood cards were just about their effects and nothing more. The delusion comes in when you think anything is gonna change between now, the tour, live, and the real fights. Unless JP is up in arms about the changes, idk I'm not JP, nothing is gonna change.

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You're the one who replied to my narnia meme first. Take your own advice.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

You're the one who replied to my narnia meme first. Take your own advice.

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I replied to you, yes. Of my own volition. Bc I don't have this weird aversion to reading and interacting with people I disagree with, unlike yourself. Are you implying that if someone replies to your post you have to respond? Or are you just that obsessed with me that you gotta offer a quip every time I say something? Bc so far your replies to me have had no substance beyond 'I don't want to read that'

OP posted some valid personal opinions and beliefs about the new astro and as always I see that the official FF14 forum is still full of elitist who believe their opinions are better than anyones..

Its sadly a trend i keep seeing regardless of which sub forum. Anyone who says anything remotely positive about the game is shot down immediately by a bunch of "well actually" sayers.

It doesnt matter what changes SE does to Astro or any healer. People are never happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

OP posted some valid personal opinions and beliefs about the new astro and as always I see that the official FF14 forum is still full of elitist who believe their opinions are better than anyones..

Its sadly a trend i keep seeing regardless of which sub forum. Anyone who says anything remotely positive about the game is shot down immediately by a bunch of "well actually" sayers.

It doesnt matter what changes SE does to Astro or any healer. People are never happy.

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Strange you don’t interpret “there is never positive feedback on the healer forum” as “they must be elitists who refuse to enjoy the game” and not “there is actually problems with healers”

Especially given they haven’t changed a single healer in 3 expansions now so I don’t know what we are supposed to be happy about

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kissune

I replied to you, yes. Of my own volition. Bc I don't have this weird aversion to reading and interacting with people I disagree with, unlike yourself. Are you implying that if someone replies to your post you have to respond? Or are you just that obsessed with me that you gotta offer a quip every time I say something? Bc so far your replies to me have had no substance beyond 'I don't want to read that'

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As I stated in my first post responding to you, I'm not passing judgement or forming opinions until I see the full kit. I think that should have been enough of a cue for you to pick up that I'm not interested in debating the quality of DT AST as we know of it now. I think it's pointless wheel spinning atm. If the kit is subpar, which would not surprise me, I will make my opinion known at that point.

What I take issue with is your conduct throughout the thread. You've done nothing but insult, berate, and talk down to those who don't mimic your stance. Forgive me for wanting to have a bit of fun taking some jabs at someone such as yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

OP posted some valid personal opinions and beliefs about the new astro and as always I see that the official FF14 forum is still full of elitist who believe their opinions are better than anyones..

Its sadly a trend i keep seeing regardless of which sub forum. Anyone who says anything remotely positive about the game is shot down immediately by a bunch of "well actually" sayers.

It doesnt matter what changes SE does to Astro or any healer. People are never happy.

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Most of the regular posters of the healer forums offer pretty constructive and direct feedback on what they want from the healers. And most people are open to debating and debunking arguments. Calling the majority of forum posters elitist is a real stretch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Ah bless the ignore list.

In other news! NA media tour seems to be done on the content creator side, hopeful we can find out more on the new cards and other abilities soon! Maybe next week? Do we know if there is anything at all for EU creators? I swear on one of the LL they mentioned something on the 30th but I can't remember if I am mistaking the benchmark for that or what. I'll be glad to return to AST healing for the coming tier thought, I can run again with my fave coheal! That was probably the most sad thing swapping off healer, not being coheal with my friend anymore even if we remain in the same group. I'll take my main back to AST and use alts for the other jobs I wanna play I think.

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Wait there is an ignore list? where and how do I use it? I didn't think there was one here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Strange you don’t interpret “there is never positive feedback on the healer forum” as “they must be elitists who refuse to enjoy the game” and not “there is actually problems with healers”

Especially given they haven’t changed a single healer in 3 expansions now so I don’t know what we are supposed to be happy about

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Just my two cents but the healer forums have always been this way. Heck, even the beta forums for 1.x were full of complaints that conjurer was the way it was. I also don't think he said there weren't any problems with healers.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Wait there is an ignore list? where and how do I use it? I didn't think there was one here.

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You can add them to your ignore list when you visit their profile.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

You can add them to your ignore list when you visit their profile.

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I'm going to use it just like my blacklist. Fill it up when needed and clear it every so often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

As I stated in my first post responding to you, I'm not passing judgement or forming opinions until I see the full kit. I think that should have been enough of a cue for you to pick up that I'm not interested in debating the quality of DT AST as we know of it now. I think it's pointless wheel spinning atm. If the kit is subpar, which would not surprise me, I will make my opinion known at that point.

What I take issue with is your conduct throughout the thread. You've done nothing but insult, berate, and talk down to those who don't mimic your stance. Forgive me for wanting to have a bit of fun taking some jabs at someone such as yourself.

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I've been insulted, berated, and ESPECIALLY talked down to by the very same people, yourself included. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, as they say. I admitted right at the start I'm a bit of a bitch. It's everyone else pretending they're not that I take issue with.

I ain't gonna knock you for taking jabs at me, I get it. Just don't be shocked and appalled when I bite back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zaytex

The casual players thematically love the idea of each card having a different use card, even if SB era made it apparent only the DPS increase card was viable in content that had any meaning.

AST rework is purely down to catering for casuals, which makes sense given they're the biggest source of income for the game.

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I feel like it should be noted that during StB the highest bard parse was when they were under the effect of the spear, which increased crit rate at the time. Everyone operated under the assumption that DPS % boost was obviously the best but that wasn't always the case. It also only mattered to parsers who wanted higher numbers, the StB card system did not prohibit anyone from clearing content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

OP posted some valid personal opinions and beliefs about the new astro and as always I see that the official FF14 forum is still full of elitist who believe their opinions are better than anyones..

Its sadly a trend i keep seeing regardless of which sub forum. Anyone who says anything remotely positive about the game is shot down immediately by a bunch of "well actually" sayers.

It doesnt matter what changes SE does to Astro or any healer. People are never happy.

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If you post on a feedback forum, you should be open to feedback on your own posts. If people think you are wrong, they will tell you. The forums aren't a hive mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

As I stated in my first post responding to you, I'm not passing judgement or forming opinions until I see the full kit. I think that should have been enough of a cue for you to pick up that I'm not interested in debating the quality of DT AST as we know of it now. I think it's pointless wheel spinning atm. If the kit is subpar, which would not surprise me, I will make my opinion known at that point.

What I take issue with is your conduct throughout the thread. You've done nothing but insult, berate, and talk down to those who don't mimic your stance. Forgive me for wanting to have a bit of fun taking some jabs at someone such as yourself.

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At this point I'm mostly tired of these people. Disagreeing with me is fine, its expected to happen. There are plenty of people I disagree with but don't feel the need to call idiots, like the people who think stormblood cards would work in current ffxiv fight design. But the arguments I'm being shoved with are so utterly nonsensical it just feels like trying to talk to a wall, built on the idea that somehow DT cards are more enjoyable than EW cards even though theyve lost everything that made them cards in the first place, replaced with a glorified aetherflow with a card aesthetic. And it's insane seeing people defend that, and laud it as a step forward when all I see from even that mindset is 5 steps back, 1 step forwards (even if i disagree on it being a step forwards at all). It just baffles me, like they have to be either lying for fun or completely misunderstanding something critical. You get me?

Whenever I tried to get an answer out about what I possibly could have been missing about it all I get back it is 'awwwwh, poor endwawker baby, she cant possibwy understand!' (Hyperbole, Aelin). They tell me what they like about stormblood cards, I listen, and then in the same breath they say they prefer DT cards to EW/ShB which just tells me that theres something incompatible going on bc I'm sorry bit EW cards are closer to StB than DT, design wise. And that frustrates me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Wait there is an ignore list? where and how do I use it? I didn't think there was one here.



Just my two cents but the healer forums have always been this way. Heck, even the beta forums for 1.x were full of complaints that conjurer was the way it was. I also don't think he said there weren't any problems with healers.

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It's from their profile, it's very nice not to see the childish rants anymore. I said my piece, that person is just determined to be mad and spread his misery so he isn't alone wallowing in it. I'm just hoping now we get some info the end of this month so we can see in more detail the AST changes. Still super hype for it! If the cards are quite simple I want to get the feedback in for some more interesting effects and ofc the manipulation I so desire ;)