SAM players are quitting

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

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They are choices. Just because it's a mistake to do it doesn't mean it's not a choice. And taking away the ability to make that mistake is simplification.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There's some nuance and detail I could argue with you, but that doesn't really pertain to whether or not Kaiten should come back. I've said it elsewhere - This is purely a gamefeel issue.

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I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I have nothing but apathy towards basically every physical DPS's repertoire of weaponskills, because they almost all fall under the same breadth of use despite their animation differences and their names, and I have nothing but active disdain for basically every weaponskill combo in the game.

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This is actually my biggest problem with the changes to samurai - DPS is my preferred role and melee specifically over ranged, and samurai was the only melee I really enjoyed. I'm lukewarm at best towards most kits, so trying to replace samurai as my main has been more or less futile.

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite kit? (and why, if you care to elaborate)

You can just remove everything, by some people’s logic, and turn ffxiv into a calculator so that every job has 1 ability which does approximately the numbers which the developers want dps wise with no fluctuations and we would be balanced all would be well.

Breaking the game down to maths will do nothing but expose the fact that you could solve a lot of challenges by homogenizing everything give it a different name and make the game boring whilst making your job as a game designer extremely easy.

But that’s not why we play this fantasy game is it? And I’m quite confident the team at SE don’t want us be bored. Kaiten was trivial to an experienced SAM, yes, but it was a satisfying ability to use, subjectively players were enamored by the power-up effect which they had control over.

Belittling that subjective feeling is a kin to telling you, you don’t really like pizza you don’t need it - are some of you arrogant enough to believe you can tell SAM mains what they liked about the job they play?

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Lol. If it is strong damage wise why world first prog raiders for ultimate went with obvious choices like nin/drg/monk? Atleast thank god sam got 1 clear.

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"Lol" I wouldn't know and will not speak for ultimate players. If you look at fflogs, it's very strong

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Originally Posted by Flashy

"Lol" I wouldn't know and will not speak for ultimate players. If you look at fflogs, it's very strong

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You do realise that many people quit doing logs for good till 6.2 because savage is dead since first 5 weeks and/or ultimate? You do realise that the average of sam dps was nerfed in crit comp but what about max potential (i had pulls where in opener i barely scratched 2k dps above bis drk lol)? In this patch even not looking at ultimate sam just doesn't exist, it's nin/drg/mnk with occasional reaper. Yes, even in dead pf on Light i have already saw people locking out sam from joining (not reclears you know).

But w/e, you will probably will /tell "it's very strong please can i join" to people who will lock out sam in 6.2 if it stays same (not progress/reclears you know).

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Because that's not feedback

That's whining.

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Sounds familiar, almost like you're doing the exact same thing. Devs specifically asked for feedback, and you're here whining about it when you could instead choose to.. ignore something that doesn't affect you.
Oh except it does affect you, you're bitter over the fact that Samurai was meta for almost the entirety of Shadowbringers. Maybe you should spend more time getting better at the game than lashing out at people on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

You do realise that many people quit doing logs for good till 6.2 because savage is dead since first 5 weeks and/or ultimate? You do realise that the average of sam dps was nerfed in crit comp but what about max potential (i had pulls where in opener i barely scratched 2k dps above bis drk lol)? In this patch even not looking at ultimate sam just doesn't exist, it's nin/drg/mnk with occasional reaper. Yes, even in dead pf on Light i have already saw people locking out sam from joining (not reclears you know).

But w/e, you will probably will /tell "it's very strong please can i join" to people who will lock out sam in 6.2 if it stays same (not progress/reclears you know).

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I'm aware that it comes out to about a 3% dps nerf in crit comps. I wouldn't know why world first teams aren't bringing a SAM, I can make assumptions but cannot speak for them. I definitely won't be telling people to let me into their parse groups if they don't want a pure dps that can't synergize with crit buffs. I don't get what you're getting at? Also it's all relative. I can't look at 6.0 logs and see how SAM is doing in 6.1 but they seem to be doing very well.

My original comment was about the playstyle and you're taking this one sentence completely out of context to try and discredit my opinion which shouldn't matter to you, it's my opinion that the damage is fine outside of crit comps, but the playstyle feels like a level 50 SAM in labriynth of the ancients

Also if you want to talk about 6.1 logs and how they are not competitive, which is fine, 6.1 SAM dps was already calcuated to be roughly the same (-3 dps) as our dps in 6.08, so 6.11 buffs definitely helped, but we still have anti-synergy with crit

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Originally Posted by Flashy

Also if you want to talk about 6.1 logs and how they are not competitive, which is fine, 6.1 SAM dps was already calcuated to be roughly the same (-3 dps) as our dps in 6.08, so 6.11 buffs definitely helped, but we still have anti-synergy with crit

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I'm pretty sure no one cares about these buffs. Shoha buff feels like a joke, why would they nerf it in first place.

OP here! I'm really surprised how much thread blew up. I thought I would respond to a couple current themes I have seen crop up after reading through everything.

1) You're probably not even unsubbed
https://i.imgur.com/m6hNbNE.png
I have no plans of resubbing in the near future

2) You're just going to resub and are just stirring things up
I understand the cynicism. However, let me share some of my experience. I have been playing MMOs for 16 years, prominently WoW. They are my favourite game genre and something I play regularly. However, in particular from my experiences from WoW - you do learn to tell the intentions of developers for making changes. And the current job changes that have been happening in the recent years have not been in the best interest of the consistent players, but rather aimed at trying to retain the recent large spike new players that have played through the game since ShadowBringers.

This isn't about damage, numbers, yada-yada. It is about the feel of the game being changed to the detriment of long term players' experience, in the hope of increasing player retention after the expansion/patch cycle. And it is bad for the game in the long term. The worst part of it for me however, is the insincerity from the game director for the need of the now implemented changes. Additionally, there seems to be an internal bias for jobs within SE for which get simplified and which keep the core aspects that help them retain their integral class fantasy/feel.

Coupled with this, and the lack of job experience of 'job testers' that was revealed in recent interview with YoshiP when they were discussing how they were testing healer jobs, has allowed me and many others to conclude that these job changes aren't in the best interest of the core playerbase. Thus, this has led to many of us taking a step back away from FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

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They are. Simple as that. You seem to be insisting on approaching this issue from the perspective that failing to play your class optimally is not an option... Which isn't realistic at all. Every class has effectively a strict ideal way of playing it. A optimized timing and button order that will be better then any other method, for any fight, and from the perspective you are presenting, none of them have 'options' in how they are played outside of that strict method (despite just two posts ago you were expressing 'Look at all these optimization choices you can still make.' in direct contradiction to what you are posting now).

You arn't really making any sense.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Kaiten falls under pass/fail. There is a right answer (Sword Draw enhance) and a whole lotta wrong answers (Using it with literally any non-Draw).

So in terms of optimization to improve your damage, Kaiten is already inconsequential, because where you use it is predetermined in almost all cases, and I use "Almost all" because you could make the argument that "I only have 20 Kenki, there's only time for one OGCD slot, and the only GCD I can press is Hakaze, and the boss is about to die / enrage right NOW" and that is...technically correct, and if you want to take that victory, by all means.

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And then you effectively contradict yourself yet again in recognizing there is a 'right option' in regards to using kaiten, and a "whole lotta wrong answers" (indicating there are numerous ways to use kaiten correctly and the numerous incorrect ways) and in the next sentence illogically state that its inconsequential. The things you are stating don't match up at all. Heck, you even go out of your way to provide a accurate example of a scenario which support what I have been saying, of where you have to make a conscious decision regarding how you execute your rotation, effectively supporting the very position I am trying to express to you.

I am not trying to be obtuse or overly critical of what you are saying... Just that its entirely self defeating. You are elaborating on my very point and in the next sentence denying the very things you just stated simply as it being 'inconsequential'. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.



Yes, every last move in this game is a 'pass / fail' mechanic, with most having countless ways of not being used optimally. That is the very point I am expressing, why I am suggesting kaiten has more purpose then you imply, and considering the different areas of SAM game play it effects (kenki management, sen coordination, as silly as it would be to do - the countless moves that Kaiten is not supposed to be applied to) it most certainly had consequence and with far more engagement and thought required then spamming a move like shinten. The reasons you are giving to explain your perspective with are the very reasons themselves as to why kaiten was not inconsequential, the opposite of what you are claiming. Not only was kaiten not your standard, stand alone isolated move, but the very fact that it existed itself provided the SAM kit more variance then what it contains now. Plain and simple.


I am not trying to be dismissive or insulting of your point of view... But your very reasoning disqualifies what you are trying to prove. From what I can understand from your argument is that you just look at the game in a extremely simplistic light of: 'We all have buttons to press, why does it matter to you which ones you press?" I honestly haven't been able to unravel what you are trying to say from any other angle.

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Originally Posted by DreadfullyAwful

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The one thing that people invariably forget is that, sub or not, you can't actually log on to the forums without having logged on to your character within the past 14 days, and the forums auto-log you out when that flag hits. It's actually incredibly easy to fact check this from the post date, and I can tell you that there are quite a few 'expiry dates' coming up on some oddly active posters.

On the plus side, if true, at least that will mean less duplicate and toxic threads, as well as a return to higher quality posting.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Another potency shift, Kaiten returns, Kaiten just makes the next weaponskill auto-crit.

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Oddly enough, this is exactly what I would predict them to do in response to feedback. Kaiten was never their primary target in the first place.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Critiquing Samurai's difficulty? Kaiten meaningless?
Brainless design gameplay? Lets see your creditability...

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The funniest part in reflection to the poster you are responding to is, they are effectively stating:
- The job was never hard (which never was anyone's argument)
- The job already has a simplistic rotation (which never was anyone's argument)
- Kaiten's removal didn't change SAM at all (not even stated as 'Kaiten's removal had minimalist impact... but it didn't change anything... You know, despite the 99% of SAM that disagree with the person that doesn't play SAM)

and despite what contradictory statements they made above, then go to question:
- Why are SAM players upset over SE making their simplistic job even more simple?!


The people that go far out of their way to comically defeat themselves with their very own words are amusing. They effectively have been proving themselves wrong or silly by providing the very contradictory self defeating answers to their very own criticism on the subject to effectively a 100% posting average.

At first I was irritated by the endlessly, narcissistic derailment they try to hijack the thread with... At this point however, silly self righteous arguments like JanVanding's which effectively answer their own boneheaded criticism from the start simple comes across as clownish, provides a chuckle, and the topic/thread a bump.

Keep them coming guys...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The one thing that people invariably forget is that, sub or not, you can't actually log on to the forums without having logged on to your character within the past 14 days, and the forums auto-log you out when that flag hits. It's actually incredibly easy to fact check this from the post date, and I can tell you that there are quite a few 'expiry dates' coming up on some oddly active posters.

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I was very active on the forums post 6.1, but I got discouraged after 6.11 and the lack of developer feedback despite the uproar - which seemed to be overshadowed by the house lottery crisis. I am very much wait and see now, but I'm sure even when my forum privileges are gone, it will remain a very active and prominent issue until/if it is a addressed.

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Originally Posted by ten_pla

私も絶で侍使用しています。
うちの固定には近接が私だけなので火力で遅れをとるようなことはあまりなかったのですが、
昨日の野良募集で一緒にプレイした忍者さんにはだいぶ劣るという結果でした。
詩人さんのバトルボイス、忍者さんの騙しのタイミングに閃影や震天をずらした開幕バーストですら敵わない。
悲しい…ピュアDPSとは…いったい…

他DPSのスレも盛り上がってるのかなーと見てみたら6.1リリース後からのコメント数
侍 792
モ 9
竜 201
リ 17
忍 125
機 61
踊 11
詩 101
赤 48
召 62
黒 3
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSBcJJ1a...=png&name=orig

こんだけフィードバックがあるんですから、なんとかしてください。
ずっと侍使い続けてきたのに今モンク用の装備を揃えようとしてるところです、悲しい…

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This JP player showed that on their forums, feedback has rapidly exploded following the 6.1 proposed changes, with players leaving the same amount of feedback as the total feedback between 4.0 as 6.1. That is 2~ years worth of feedback over one patch. Despite how much other players (after scanning accounts, that do not even have SAM 90 if a 90 at all) in this thread wish to dismiss this issue, it is definitely a change that has troubled players across all data centers.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The one thing that people invariably forget is that, sub or not, you can't actually log on to the forums without having logged on to your character within the past 14 days, and the forums auto-log you out when that flag hits. It's actually incredibly easy to fact check this from the post date, and I can tell you that there are quite a few 'expiry dates' coming up on some oddly active posters.

On the plus side, if true, at least that will mean less duplicate and toxic threads, as well as a return to higher quality posting.

Oddly enough, this is exactly what I would predict them to do in response to feedback. Kaiten was never their primary target in the first place.

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"Higher quality posting" such as dismissing anyone with any sort of feedback about any job changes either very openly or (not particularly thinly) veiled, like yours? Or was it trying to derail threads in job subforums to be about housing plots and Gpose options? Or is this "your forums", and we are polluting it with content you do not approve of?

Because going through the forums, this "higher quality posting" is in fact restricted to threads about job feedback, which you and your fellow "regulars" seem to feel the need to come in and derail or dismiss claiming they are not, presumably your preferred type of, "higher quality posting"?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

On the plus side, if true, at least that will mean less duplicate and toxic threads, as well as a return to higher quality posting.

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Sort of odd to assert that people making the choice to un-sub due to their current opinion of the game, are the source of poor quality, toxic threads...

The vast majority of toxicity has been sourced from people who are going out of their way to speak down to and criticize their fellow players on a subject that clearly isn't terribly important to them (clearly expressed by the argument of theirs effectively being "Why are you overreacting? Its not that important!").


You want to see the majority of toxicity and crude posts to leave the forum? That would require people simply allowing others to speak their mind when SE asks for the very feedback they are getting and for those who take some self centered issue with the other posters doing so, to simply hold their peace and not post when they don't have anything constructive or beneficial to add. Taking a contradictory stance, or posing conflicting statements is more then fine... But that isn't representative of the vast majority of the condemnation that has been posted in response to the SAM outcry over the 6.1 changes.


If you don't want toxicity in the forums, it has very little to do with the SAM players taking a break. Its is almost entirely rooted behind people who take issue to other players expressing their opinion to a company (who asked for the very thing) for some obscure reason and insist on letting the world know about it.

I would argue there is typically far more detail and thought in a post coming from a passionate player with clear care for a game they have been playing, then that of a poster who's only existence in the thread is for telling the other people in the thread that they are overreacting, their opinions are overblown and incorrect, and should really just shut up...

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

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I completely agree with your statement. However, I welcome the criticism of these players as they are working to their own detriment. For, not only are they exposing the flaws in their own logic the more they argue, but they keep SAM threads prominently displayed at the top of the DPS so that the issue does not decay away.

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Originally Posted by DreadfullyAwful

I completely agree with your statement. However, I welcome the criticism of these players as they are working to their own detriment. For, not only are they exposing the flaws in their own logic the more they argue, but they keep SAM threads prominently displayed at the top of the DPS so that the issue does not decay away.

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Oh, 100% :P

I personally have gotten over the toxicity and at this point just interpret it as unconscious support for our issue.

But I have to admit its hard to stop myself from pointing out how a post directly contradicts reality...

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

This is actually my biggest problem with the changes to samurai - DPS is my preferred role and melee specifically over ranged, and samurai was the only melee I really enjoyed. I'm lukewarm at best towards most kits, so trying to replace samurai as my main has been more or less futile.

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite kit? (and why, if you care to elaborate)

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It varies depending on the encounter. Less demanding encounters I will generally pick something I'm more unfamiliar with, such as Dragoon, Bard, or in some cases, Dark Knight.

Dragoon has long been a class that has been at odds with how my brain works, so attempting to get better at it is an attempt at expanding my play capability. As someone who tries to work out what works blind, the multiple timers, buffs, and now First Mind present more or less a puzzle. Simply put, Dragoon has one of the more robust OGCD kits. More classes need to be built like them if their GCD kits stay as stale as they are.

Bard is the polar opposite of what I usually play, in that it is more proc based, and more about syncing up to create powerful party windows - The actual kit itself I don't have any attachment to, but again, it's about the playstyle and doing something different. I found the appeal here tends to be more about lining up with the fight tempo, finding where the windows are to be created, and then pushing them out - It's an odd and ethereal sense that, yes, I did just line up the Radiant, battle voice window, hit everyone, and have just entered my own burst phase, but whether or not it bears fruit you'll never know without some outside help. It's weird. It's not deterministic like other jobs, and you'll never know if anyone else was actively watching for your buffs to dump in, outside of organized groups.

Despite all the ups and downs Dark Knight has had over the years, there's some childish glee about the burst window being this frenzy of every single button combined with mixing in the tank busters. It's how Stormblood Machinist used to function in some ways - Extremely high peaks of activity, and then a cooldown period in between. Nostalgia perhaps?

There are encounters that are run in this seemingly flawless beat, and to that I'll say Black Mage, but any of the classes that prefer to be stationary work here (So...Black Mage and the Healers), because lining up with this tempo creates so of the most enjoyable feedback loops once you find that rhythm. These encounters include Kefka (o8s), Shiva (e8s), and Titan (E4s). There's just enough randomness to them that you can't just do a static rotation, and the proc/swap nature of Black Mage lined up basically perfectly with them in a Call/Response method. The enemy has called, and now you respond with your toolkit to maintain your spells.

I found the same to be true specifically for Gunbreaker and E12s, and if Continuation ever did get the 6y treatment, I'm glad I got to do E12s while it was at 3y. The restriction of Gnashing Fang and Continuation added a level of tension that I frankly don't think any of the other tanks would provide there.

Apologies for going out of order, but I imagine that it helps for context - I play a lot of things in a lot of content.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

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So, starting with Kenki - I think it'd actually be quite difficult to bottom out on Kenki that you can't use Kaiten and thus create meaningful management. It's a scenario that would take some active effort to do so, but I'll also admit that perhaps I think too highly of players in the game. Samurai is very close to having Paladin's "MP management", which is to say, they are given so much Kenki that not having the bare amounts to perform Kaiten requires quite a few conditionals that both the playerbase and the Developer team provide discouragement from achieving.

First, lets talk about when Kaiten is first earned. Your Kenki economy at this time is frugal, at best. You are taught, quite cleanly, that you get just enough Kenki to use kaiten about once per full Sen acquirement. Even when you gain more Kenki abilities this does not change. The leveling process teaches (or rather, should teach) that Kenki is for Kaiten and Kaiten is for Iaijutsu. This is the first thing you learn.

When you acquire your Kenki dump, Shinten, is when your economy grows, but the majority of your early experience in Samurai was formulating this basic connection - Kenki is for Kaiten for Iaijutsu. With Guren, you're given an immensely powerful OGCD that costs Kenki, and it is here that the Developer's lessons end, when they are done teaching your basic Kenki priority. Shinten < Kaiten Sword Draw < Big Kenki Damager.

In short, when you hit 70 and move on, you've been taught your priority, you've been taught to be frugal with your Kenki, and you've been taught to dump your excess. Moving forward, with Ikishoten, your Kenki for the burst window is basically solved. Hit Ikishoten, Senei, Kaiten Ogi. Your basic Kenki economy has been increased while overall kenki costs have been reduced (Big hits are 25 instead of 50) - Any Hakaze combo line generates 20 for Kaiten (Where as prior Yukikaze was 15 total, instead of 5 + 15), and you've already been trained not to haphazardly shinten, or at least should have been, if you've been studying your blade from the Developers before we even move into player driven rotations.

All of this combined is frankly why the Kenki management argument kind of falls short - Because the Priority the player is taught compared to the priority we now have isn't really all that different. You just use the dump more. You didn't exactly have to think about Kenki management before, because both Developer and Player encouragement was against wanton Shinten dumps. That's the dissonance I think is causing the most unpleasant feeling with a long time Samurai player.

It's a change in the direct opposite of what they've been, not so subtlety, taught this entire time. You shouldn't be using Shinten this much - Not because it's wrong, but because that's what you were taught. According to the priority, it's the correct answer. It just doesn't feel right, the same way circling "C" for twenty questions in a row on a multiple choice test doesn't feel right.

Is it "Better"? No. Is it "Worse"? Eh, technically yeah. If we work on a 10 scale, then IMO Kaiten was something like a .5 of the value to Samurai. I think a new player can level Samurai right now and frankly won't see a hole, especially if they've tried anything else. It'd still be a relatively smooth and well made job. They don't have the prior experience clashing to create that dissonance.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

Oh, 100% :P

I personally have gotten over the toxicity and at this point just interpret it as unconscious support for our issue.

But I have to admit its hard to stop myself from pointing out how a post directly contradicts reality...

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For me it's these frequent obvious troll posters, who clearly don't play Samurai nor care for the job or the game for that matter. Spamming illogical points and arguments to invalidate feedback from creditable sources of experienced players with sometimes years of experiences. Good Experienced players aren't Gods, but generally a good insight equal to say someone proficient at a profession.

Yet to disrespectfully act like they know a thing... like they are going to

• a Doctor telling them they diagnosed it wrong
• a Dentist telling them they don't know dental practices
• a Carpenter telling them how to actually handle Plywood
• a Chef, telling them how to actually braise meat
• a Mathematician, telling them 1+1=4.5 and a half eaten apple

Entitled opinions? fine... but without any experience to back anything up they said, with clear history that they indeed have no experiences... it just makes it look so damn dumb. That's what I find toxic.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

All of this combined is frankly why the Kenki management argument kind of falls short - Because the Priority the player is taught compared to the priority we now have isn't really all that different.

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Like this person, probably a decent player. SAM Main? probably not. Trying to invalidate what people find fun/intrigued/depth purely by reading our skills. Having to always have 20 Kenki for your major hits sounds quite easy on paper, Yes and numerous people keep saying that... " On Paper ".

In practice you will mess up, the punishment. Doing it right is the Reward, hence " Kenki Management ". Kaiten now removed means no punishment no reward no management. Plus not every fight is the same where Kaiten perfectly fits every fight at every moment. A good example for me is P3S where I try to figure out if I can slidecast Midare and fitting Kaiten after Brand... and it feels amazing to dodge that explosion. There are countless moments like these where Kaiten barely fits and yet we manage to pull it off. This is now gone, less depth, brainless, zero management.

That's like me saying Reassemble should just be a passive. Am I talking out of my ass for saying that? Yes cause I don't play nor do I know anything about Machinist. And even if I read on paper what the skillkit of a job does, I have no experience with it.

Non-Samurai mains judging how it means nothing... and to manage nothing... on paper... if players genuine argument point to defend Kaiten removal meaning So Little, if it meant So Little to so many who don't main SAM? what is the big deal then to not have it return if it meant " So Little " to them when it meant " So much to others " ?

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

That's like me saying Reassemble should just be a passive. I have no experience with it.

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You have enough general play experience to look at a skill, how it's intended to be used, and make an assumption on it.

This is because the difference between the various jobs are not so steep that it prevents experience from one translating to another. I know that you know exactly what Reassemble should be used for, and I know this without having to know whether or not you have ever touched the job.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You have enough general play experience to look at a skill, how it's intended to be used, and make an assumption on it.
This is because the difference between the various jobs are not so steep that it prevents experience from one can quite easily translate to another.

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Then you also know that by reading skills purely alone, it doesn't do justice as to what you can or cannot do in every single given situation on every single job in every single fight.

While jobs might not vary in steepness, I don't see the logic in advocating making it even more stale by removing any ounce of depth that many hold dear. The benefits or the enjoyment loss you suffer? from Kaiten Removal is so "Non-Existing", that defending it's removal? means so little, what is the argument point at that point for us not having it back when it means so much to Samurai mains.

This... notion of " Choice-less " to invalidate Kenki-management? The only way I can understand this if players view FFXIV's job rotations to be pre-destined, played like a perfectly scripted accordion for every fight. You cast Kaiten exactly at x time at x fight at x situation regardless of what happens? I mean I guess? but at that point doesn't that invalidate every bar, every gauge, every resource and even every cast anyone casts? If players perfectly adhere to a scripted list of skills they cast? <- Cause this is about the only way I can see that argument of there being no management of practically anything, then I agree yes.

But not everyone casts everything the same, not everyone performs the same... and that makes Kenki or any resource from any job fluctuate -> creating " Choice ". That choice to press different buttons that costs kenki? yes that's your choice to " Manage ". To knowingly cast Gekko and Kasha to generate enough for Kaiten + Midare and not trigger finger the Kenki away with Shinten yes that's a choice. To cast Kaiten and Ogi Namikiri and knowing you have enough cast time to do it as you move out of harms way or knowing you don't to delay it and not overcap your Kenki and use Shinten to manage it, that's a choice.

I don't even feel like I need to explain this... I genuinely believe I don't, not with you... but with plenty apparently I do... cause the only meme argument point they have is to invalidate all of these experiences that has become muscle memory for plenty of us into just " It's a button you press everytime "

It's been nearly a month since the recent changes and I've only touched it about 3 times total in PvE content. If they're still taking in feedback, I'd at least like for all the changes to be reverted.

Seeing the big numbers from guaranteed crit isn't as impressive as I thought it'd be. Tenka Goken being point blank AoE now doesn't feel good to me. Tenka being conal AoE was more intuitive, flashy, and made dungeon mob pulls more engaging.

I was sad to see Kaiten go, but I thought I'd be okay with the changes. It didn't really live up to my standards.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

So, starting with Kenki - I think it'd actually be quite difficult to bottom out on Kenki that you can't use Kaiten and thus create meaningful management. It's a scenario that would take some active effort to do so, but I'll also admit that perhaps I think too highly of players in the game. Samurai is very close to having Paladin's "MP management", which is to say, they are given so much Kenki that not having the bare amounts to perform Kaiten requires quite a few conditionals that both the playerbase and the Developer team provide discouragement from achieving.

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So an oft-overlooked aspect of the Kaiten argument, particularly here, is that Kasha and Gekko combos now generate a flat 20 Kenki regardless of positional. This was a small change that snuck in with the EW release and it didn't accrue much in the way of fanfare; after all, if you did things "correctly" then you would always have the maximum amount of Kenki available, yes?

Except this was simply another brick in the wall, although we didn't know it to be such at the time. Back when there was a variable amount of Kenki generated (50, 55 or 60 per full 8 GCD combo cycle) you had to factor this into the equation of your gameplay. You no longer were going to be guaranteed 60 Kenki per cycle. Yes, True North helped, and yes hitting the positionals themselves wasn't hard for the most part, but there were still fights that pushed you into bad spots occasionally where you would be forced to either eat 5-10 less Kenki gain or else alter your GCD flow (such as by using a Yuki+Haga GCD shift at an earlier time than you normally would).

At the time that the positional requirements got shifted from increased Kenki gain to the current state of boosted potency and a flat 10 Kenki, well, it didn't make much of a difference. Because, again, it was easy enough to rationalize "well you should always be hitting your positionals" as an excuse. Now, with the removal of Kaiten - and with the context of the apparent future of job design in this game - it's clear that the Kasha/Gekko changes weren't simply a pure "accessibility" change, but rather were the first step to the ultimate destruction of Kenki as a resource to be managed. You've no doubt seen the many comments now about how Kenki is functionally useless. Many people have rightly referred to Kenki as the Shinten Gauge now, while weaving Gyoten into the opener and sometimes even the burst window is now considered optimal due to the loss of Kaiten and the ppK nerfs Shinten received.

All of this ties into the "PLD" MP management comparison you made. But that isn't a justification for removing Kaiten or otherwise keeping the current changes; it's a justification for reverting the changes and bringing back Kenki management as a real aspect of the job, up to and including the reversion of Kasha and Gekko Kenki positional gains and the cost reduction on Senei/Guren. As it stands now, yes, Kaiten was much more braindead than it was in ShB and SB, but it still did at least require at least one brain cell to use correctly. The reason why it was so braindead was because SE changed things to make it more braindead. Whereas before you had to always keep one eye on your Kenki gauge and make on-the-fly decisions based on how a fight went (icicles in E12s, Emerald Weapon/Ruby Weapon EX's, SoS EX 5 elements, Light Rampant in E8s, to name a few) SE removed a big chunk of that with the 6.0 change. Then they removed what was left of it with 6.1.

Sure, a new player can probably pick up SAM 6.1 and play it and notice any problems, but you can make a comparison there about a lot of things. I can go to McDonald's and get a Big Mac, and while it'll satisfy my hunger it's nowhere near as good as a nice AAA grade Angus burger cooked over an open flame. SAM could be so much better. It WAS so much better. Making excuses for the current state of SAM isn't the way to go; this needs to be a moment of sea change. This needs to be the point where the players say to the devs that "easy" design for them shouldn't be the governing principle. Of course as time goes by there will be problems with iterating on jobs but that's not a reason to gut something that was fun, engaging and performed perfectly fine! Laziness is never an excuse, and I call out as much in a post I made here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ZY.-Here-s-why

Point being there are so many people, new posters to the forums, who have never posted here before, and they are pissed about the changes. JP has had more feedback and forum activity in the past month regarding this change (and many 6.1 changes in general) than they had in the entirety of 4.0 to 6.0. This can be a turning point where we, as the players, tell the devs that not only were the 6.1 changes bad but that the general direction of job balance needs to be changed too. Not just for SAM, not just for NIN, but for MCH and SMN and tanks and healers too. I have no delusions about some kind of magical Heavensward revival or something, but the solution for a player who wants engaging gameplay should not be "go play ultimate." Perhaps that quote was taken out of context but the core gist of what underlies it still remains; jobs need to be engaging in-and-of themselves regardless of the difficulty behind any content you're doing. A player shouldn't need to seek out harder fights to feel engaged by their job as the jobs should be engaging enough at a core level.

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Originally Posted by KanuKano

It's been nearly a month since the recent changes and I've only touched it about 3 times total in PvE content. If they're still taking in feedback, I'd at least like for all the changes to be reverted.

Seeing the big numbers from guaranteed crit isn't as impressive as I thought it'd be. Tenka Goken being point blank AoE now doesn't feel good to me. Tenka being conal AoE was more intuitive, flashy, and made dungeon mob pulls more engaging.

I was sad to see Kaiten go, but I thought I'd be okay with the changes. It didn't really live up to my standards.

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On the topic of guaranteed crits, setting aside for a minute the obviously enormous anti-synergy it brings to a buff-utilizing job like SAM, our current Midare guaranteed crits are as low as what they hit for pre-6.1 with no crit or direct hit. A post-6.1 CDH Midare hits for 10-12k less than a pre-6.1 CDH Midare. And combo finishers hit for minutely less than this "big skill we build towards". There is no "big skill" at the end of the loop, it's just another insipid nothing. Not to mention the rewarding feedback loop in the form of kaiten weaving, and the conal Tenka Goken that was a ton of fun to play around with are both missing.

None of us care that SAM does the same or slightly more "overall dps" as before. The feel of the job has been gutted intentionally, surgically and without any explanation, and I think the lack of explanation is what irks a lot of us.

EDIT: Like Quor above pointed, we need the "kenki generation from positionals" back as well. I had actually forgotten that happened during 6.0, so thank you for the reminder.

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Originally Posted by Quor

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Excellently put, couldn't have said it better. Fully agreed on everything you detailed in your reply.

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

On the topic of guaranteed crits, setting aside for a minute the obviously enormous anti-synergy it brings to a buff-utilizing job like SAM, our current Midare guaranteed crits are as low as what they hit for pre-6.1 with no crit or direct hit. A post-6.1 CDH Midare hits for 10-12k less than a pre-6.1 CDH Midare. And combo finishers hit for minutely less than this "big skill we build towards". There is no "big skill" at the end of the loop, it's just another insipid nothing. Not to mention the rewarding feedback loop in the form of kaiten weaving, and the conal Tenka Goken that was a ton of fun to play around with are both missing.

None of us care that SAM does the same or slightly more "overall dps" as before. The feel of the job has been gutted intentionally, surgically and without any explanation, and I think the lack of explanation is what irks a lot of us.

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Given Yoshi P.'s surprise during the patch notes reading, I have to believe there is a disconnect between him, the feedback teams and the players. I.e. the feedback teams aren't being completely honest about the state of things and this is influencing his ability to make executive decisions.

Then again, that requires me to believe that feedback was collected in the first place. The TA and Kaiten changes being two big examples that neither NIN nor SAM players were engaged about the upcoming changes. But Yoshi's surprise was so evident and clear that it really looked like he got cold-cocked by chat's reactions. My hope, naive and overly optimistic though it may be, is that Yoshi is undertaking a nice, thorough audit of his feedback team and where/why the disconnect occurred, with eventual plans to fix things so that this doesn't happen again.

But then again the ex-wife always did say I was overly optimistic about humans. Please don't make the ex-wife right Yoshi.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Then you also know that by reading skills purely alone, it doesn't do justice as to what you can or cannot do in every single given situation on every single job in every single fight.

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Yes. I know this because I play a variety of jobs in end game content, but I have time limits and energy constraints, let alone desires to play games other than FF14. Most of the examples you provide have less to do with Kaiten, isntead centered on whether or not you're using Iaijutsu, in which case, the use of Kaiten is a foregone conclusion.

Do you understand why that is different?

There is a valid argument for Sword Draw against a standard GCD for safety vs calculation. <=== This is the choice.

If you chose Sword Draw, you're using Kaiten. <==== This is not a choice.

It's also important to note I am not saying it's easy doing it. I am not diminishing your accomplishments. Imagine a Machinist telling someone else their job is easy. I also don't think I'd paint myself as an advocate for its removal. I'm very much against removing things without receiving anything for them, but I also think it's important to look at what the absence reveals to us, and use that to direct what we should ask for.

To me, the removal of Kaiten confirmed what Tsubame Gaeshi started for me, in that Samurai is actually uninteresting in its current path. Kaiten coming back will not change that for me.

But hey, you're right. I'm far less affected than others. So for what it's worth, I hope you can look forward to 6.2 for its potential return. Just beware that I doubt you'll get it back in its original form.

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Originally Posted by Quor

A whole lotta good stuff

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See, it's people like you that keep me coming back here.

This whole wall is full of good stuff, and my only regret is that it'll soon be buried.

I didn't unsubscribe but I did quit samurai and am pretty bitter about it, especially because I had spent a good bit of time gearing it this tier. I played samurai for around 5-6 raid tiers and I think 2? ultimates despite how good or bad it was. It was a gameplay thing for me. The game is still fun but I feel pretty lost, nothing is really clicking as a "main" right now. It's difficult to gauge how many people truly favor the changes. Most of the people defending them here do so by arguing that they are minor and that the discontent is exaggerated, rarely or never arguing that the changes are actually "good". I don't have data, but if most people don't care either way or disfavor them then it seems like the changes really should be reverted.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Most of the examples you provide have less to do with Kaiten, isntead centered on whether or not you're using Iaijutsu, in which case, the use of Kaiten is a foregone conclusion.

Do you understand why that is different?.

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It means at the end of the day its still " Decision Making ".

The only time it's not? is when we're not humans and perfect robots without free will -> playing perfectly to a pre-scripted timeline of skills casted at exactly x time and x situations. We for better or worse we aren't perfect, we make errors through our Decision Making.

I personally don't use it, but through " XIVAnalysis", it shows Samurai's " Missed Kaiten Casts ". By applying your logic and that of many others who preach " No Choice, since you cast it before every Iaijutsu... " it doesn't exactly explain why many Samurai's miss-execute not casting Kaiten does it? So why? by your logic that is.

• Forgot Kaiten? nope we had " -> No Choice "
• Fat fingered Shinten? nope we had -> " No Choice "
• Miss Managed Kenki? nope we had -> " No Choice "
• Mistake? I thought we had -> " No Choice "

Remember your logic was " No Choice " we had no decision other then casting Kaiten right before every Iaijutsu... Lets forget you missed mentioning casting Kaiten before every Ogi Namikiri that wasn't even your " Choice " to do so... cause " No Choices " correct? see the flaw in the logic?

The Answer = Choice, we did had the Decision Making, and still end up miss casting Kaiten. The reward and the joy is doing this perfectly, the punishment is missing or messing this up. You're right, it is difficult to perfectly do this 24/7 on every fight and every situation. Was it rocket science? no. But it was very enjoying to try and keep doing it perfectly. And ultimately still the Samurai users " Choice " to do so.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

To me, the removal of Kaiten confirmed what Tsubame Gaeshi started for me, in that Samurai is actually uninteresting in its current path. Kaiten coming back will not change that for me.

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Here we differ in opinion. Kaiten removal just showed that Kenki Management to many of us it had depth no matter how shallow others try to convince us it was of which many who don't even play our job voiced that opinion. There's a reason why there's an uproar for this.

And I do hope to see it return and if not? With something of equal or more depth or satisfaction to cast in its place. Though replacing Kaiten? is a tall task.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

To me, the removal of Kaiten confirmed what Tsubame Gaeshi started for me, in that Samurai is actually uninteresting in its current path. Kaiten coming back will not change that for me.

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For many of us, the crux of the matter is that if SAM and Crit as a whole were going to be reworked in future expansions, why now and not then? Why right before new endgame content where SAM players and their statics spent months preparing for? Why only one class and not others? I will echo what others have mentioned and say that I'd be less upset over these changes if they were slated to be a part of an overhaul in say 7.0. The changes were rushed; one can see this with the recent 'buffs' SAM received in 6.11. They were to combat the meme rotation in Yukikaze > Hagakure > Shinten spam doing similar numbers to the devs' projected numbers in 6.1.

Due to the 6.1 'fixes', SAM has lost synergy with 4 classes that augment Crit rate. Their DPS suffers if a SAM is brought along in a composition. Not to mention, Shinten spamming with awkward pauses in the opener / rotation is not my idea of fun. There was a reason Hagakure was restored, albeit in a nerfed form; that reason was to discourage the dull SB playstyle that was brought back with 6.1.

Tldr; if their intention was to dig themselves out of the Kaiten / Tsubame Gaeshi loop, they should've done it in a new expansion, and not shoehorned right before new raid content.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Tldr; if their intention was to dig themselves out of the Kaiten / Tsubame Gaeshi loop, they should've done it in a new expansion, and not shoehorned right before new raid content.

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We can guess for their motives - I certainly wouldn't put my realization in line with them. They design the game for a player that differs greatly from me.

There's a good post in another thread regarding potential motives, if you're interested you can check their thoughts here.

And frankly regarding the timing, it is probably something that they could have waited until the next expansion to address fully and completely. It's not like they haven't left other things to sit around until a similar if not greater amount of time has passed.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Thanks for humoring me on kit preference - it's good to hear that it varies, but it's also interesting to hear that bard is among your selection - it's one of the jobs I haven't maxed out yet, so that piques my interest.

As for kenki and how you're taught to use it, its priority hierarchy, etc., I have nothing to argue against in how you portrayed the onboarding as a samurai levels, and I think your depiction is a credit to the devs.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I think it'd actually be quite difficult to bottom out on Kenki that you can't use Kaiten and thus create meaningful management. It's a scenario that would take some active effort to do so, but I'll also admit that perhaps I think too highly of players in the game.

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I don't mean to disparage players, but I think you might indeed be giving too much credit - there are plenty of people who will smash Shinten the moment they see it light up literally because it lit up. A dps OCGD is available? Using it. We've covered the idea that Kaiten is a non-choice, as is when to use it, but it's worth noting that there's another non-choice that players need to pass before Kaiten's is even presented, which is the non-choice to NOT use Shinten when you're about to reach your desired sen status. Players who are used to pooling resources will have no problem with this, but for those who aren't, this is a new point of mastery akin to checking your shots in an FPS that has killable friendly units. A lot of players already have experience with that and it won't slow them down for a moment, but for some players, it'll be something they haven't dealt with before. Just because it's trivial to most of us doesn't mean it can be ignored - it just means it's a point of mastery that we've already conquered. That said, even for players who this comes naturally to, kenki "management", while trivial, still required you to pay attention to the relationship between your sen and your kenki - without Kaiten there's no reason to - you can literally ignore your kenki and just hit Shinten whenever you fancy, the only exception being to pool in preparation for a burst window, and even that basically doesn't matter - an extra Shinten or two benefiting from burst window buffs is hardly noteworthy, and since Ikishoten and Senei have the same cooldown, an extra Shinten or two benefiting from buffs is all the pooling does amount to.

As for the priority hierarchy - it was simple, but it existed, and now it doesn't. It provided a non-choice on a regular basis throughout the samurai's rotation - with Kaiten removed, the non-choices are removed as well. We agree that these were non-choices, but I think it's important to acknowledge that non-choice is still better than literally no choice. Picking between A and B constantly when you know the right answer is still much more engaging than just mashing A because it's the only button you have. Also, I would argue that it's also only a non-choice once the right and wrong picks are known - until then it's a meaningful choice that serves as a point of mastery. Sure, there's still a right and wrong answer, but if you don't know which is which, it puts the onus on the player to figure that out. Some players will just read the toolips and solve it that way - others seem completely unwilling to read tooltips and will figure it out through experimentation - others...won't figure it out...ever, or if they do, actively ignore what they know. Regardless, point being that options are better than no options even if there isn't a meaningful choice involved.

I like the all-"C" analogy, but you still reference it in terms of the priority hierarchy, but that hierarchy no longer exists - C is the only option - it isn't the right answer, it's the only answer, and there's no longer a question being asked of you. The test is blank and you're just selecting C all the way down because A, B and D aren't even there. Again, non-choices are still much better than literally no choices, not only for engagement, but for variety sake as well.

Since you're keen to chat nuance, I'd like to bring up cadence. One of the "feel" points that Kaiten provided was a guaranteed non-damaging OGCD prior to a hardcast. I imagine this active downbeat was an intentional part of the original design and I'd argue that Iaijutsu is diminished without it. Samurai's tempo is one of the things that made it unique - tons of kits have tons of OGCDs, but most of them aren't actually part of the rotation - they're just extra things to do while also doing your rotation, but with samurai, Kaiten was actually part of the rotation, and without it, it's just like the other jobs in that regard.

If working on a 10 scale, I'd put Kaiten at something like a 3. I find it interesting that we have such drastically different evaluations of its importance despite the fact that we seem to agree on all the fundamentals. I suspect that the reason is that you're extremely adept at the game and are presumably playing with others who are as well. I, on the other hand, am relatively new to the game, and primarily play with people who are even newer than I am, and who aren't exactly adept. Some of the things that you see as trivial and complete non-issues are the same things I'm having to actively coach people on.

Agreements and disagreements aside, thank you for your response - it's nice to see someone engage in good-faith debate.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Agreements and disagreements aside, thank you for your response - it's nice to see someone engage in good faith debate.

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Likewise. For what little it's worth, I am rooting for the lot of ya.

Just forgive the little jabs here and there - they aren't personal, I assure you.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I don't even feel like I need to explain this... I genuinely believe I don't, not with you... but with plenty apparently I do... cause the only meme argument point they have is to invalidate all of these experiences that has become muscle memory for plenty of us into just " It's a button you press everytime "

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I admit I am losing steam on this part. The obtuse, overly simplistic arguments that all effectively boil down to 'It wasn't that important and you were just going to press the button regardless, why do you need it, why do you care?', have been repeated ad nauseam and despite seemingly being ignored every single time, responded to in detail (to a point that begs the simple nature of the situation) over and over.

The argument always stems from some perspective of play style perfection (entirely unrealistic) and like the little variance between the classes is already gone (simply not true and homogenization is something every player should be against) so effectively any complaint against this design direction is dismissed by the fly by elitists as: 'give it up, you already lost'.



Considering the entire topic, in every 6.1 SAM thread is specifically in reference to the subjective feel of how the class played... Its really pretty uninspired how many introverts need to convince others that their opinion about how they feel about a game they play is 'wrong'. Not to even mention the overwhelming number of SAM players that actually share this same subjective negative feeling/opinion about the 6.1 change. Seems overly silly and childish that these select few handful of contrarians have a driving need to prove the vast majority of the SAM player base incorrect in how they feel about the class they play.

At this point, I am fine with them being settled in their overly simple perspective of the game and their confusion as to why some players might actually voice their opinions.

I'll take the topic bump and will continue to discuss it with those who are actually aware of the class situation and actually have purpose here, rather then those simply interjecting themselves desperately just trying to draw attention to themselves by talking down to others about a subject they have little investment in in the first place.


Maybe they'll just get bored eventually and go harass other people... Or maybe with enough time, it'll finally dawn on them that no one really has any ground to tell another person how 'someone feels about a class's game design' is wrong, isn't the part of the topic that is up for debate or even can be debated in the first place. Its a subjectively situational impression every individual person has and its mind boggling there are people still thoughtless enough to think that a personal perspective can be disqualified and be labeled as 'wrong'.

Maybe wishful thinking... I know. But oh well... Hey, SAM threads are still active and its not like the opposition has stated anything of merit (considering they are comically arguing against others peoples personal enjoyment of something).

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Oh no, not at all, nerfed or cheated, I continue to main SAM.

And, I don't spend my time complaining that the devs did this or that, I adapt. Since when is it a convention to complain about the slightest change?

I'm a kendoka IRL, I'm not going to change my martial arts because it's getting lame.

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No one cares if you're a Kendoka IRL. Looking at your post history, you're just an infuriating individual that contributes literally nothing of any value on these forums.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

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^ This is about what i feel here.

That's the thing, though. Isn't it? We've already discussed the objective points as soon as the announcement was made, and bolstered further once they dropped.

The solutions have already been suggested, we just want something done or said by the developers, some form of acknowledgement so we can move on.

The subjective is all that's left because at the end of the day, while the rotation and the gameplay may be a tight-knit script to follow and rehearse(for the high end) so that there are no mistakes, the game is slowly taking away the ability to make mistakes as we play. By that logic, there's little left to learn or improve and all we're left with is how we personally view what we do.

I dislike the changes. The job feels slow because my brain and my body both know something is missing. The job feels weak even though it isn't because the only part we ever pay attention to damage wise, console or pc, parser or not, were typically the iaijutsu skills. Because those had build-up and you watch as it hits and get the big number.

Now if you look at that like normal, it looks... like any other hit from the combo. Because everything was flattened to be about equal.

People keep trying to assert a specific viewpoint on a subjective matter by citing just the objectivity of the situation and that isn't very fair to do. By disregarding what folks have been saying is what's causing everybody to get up in arms and start a witch hunt on anybody that so much as breathes a different opinion.

Yes, SAM is still strong. Yes, SAM is still viable. Yes, SAM still has the bare minimum it needs to thrive.

We aren't arguing that point anymore. We're trying to explain why we're dissatisfied in our core. The tenka goken change not only feels weak in comparison to the other iai, but seems weaker than the combo, which is objectively, a bad call. It's also a very short range circle that requires standing inside cleaves and enemy AoEs to use to the fullest now, which is just bad design objectively.

Kaiten is a contentious topic. Is it always used? Yes. Does it need to be used? Not necessarily, but it should. The fact that it was removed is culmination of all the objective issues created by trying to compensate it, while also being highly regarded at a subjective level.

If folks really don't care about flavor and job fantasy, then the game wouldn't have any flair or flash. It'd just be 1 button spam for everything to keep balanced so long as the numbers are adjusted. That's not a game at that point. It's not engaging and it's not entertaining.

We just want our fun back. We passed the bargaining phase and are somewhere in the other stages of grief. Some are angry. Some are sad.

Stop trying to suppress and incite the new forum posters. They only came here to do what the devs said in the announcement. Myself included.

Is that not okay?

Nail on head.

I do think that kenki management was absolutely killed in endwalker with the removal of kenki positionals, moving Ikishoten to 2 min instead of a min, removing third eye procs, removing 60 sec and 90 sec buffs to dump kenki Into, and finally the removal of kaiten. Now that I listed it all off they really destroyed what made kenki something you manage into the shiten gauge.

I don't think that the removal of Kaiten on its own was even that big of a deal. The reshuffling of potencies along with it, however, was an unprecedented blow to job fantasy that had frankly never happened in the span of a single patch- or even whole expansion (as in, x.0 to x.55) - before.

It's no wonder it generated so much feedback. It's actually one of the biggest job fuckups they've ever done.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

I don't think choice is really even the concern here - if it was just a bar that filled up and automatically buffed your next weaponskill, sure, you lose "choice", but more importantly, you lose control.

Kaiten was basically a non-choice if playing right, but that just means it was part of the rotation, and since it had a kenki cost, that made kenki relevant to the rotation - taking away control is arguably just as bad as taking away choice.

I was going to make a comparison to MCH if Reassemble just procced randomly instead of having control over it, but SAM would actually be way worse than that since the timing is dependent on sen, which you can't even build without using weaponskills. At least with MCH you could just wait for Drill to come off cooldown maybe - on SAM you'd just end up buffing Hakaze or something if you didn't already have 3 sen, or maybe if you did have 3 sen but the gauge wasn't quite full, it'd be worth it to literally just stand there not using any weaponskills so you can use it on Iaijutsu. Much rather just have Kaiten back, especially since button bloat was apparently a mistranslation for action bloat, which is to say APM, which removing Kaiten had basically no impact on.

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I feel a better comparison between SAM and NIN would be if Drill, Saw, and Anchor all were automatic crits, received massive potency cuts, with all that potency put on something like Gauss Shot or their 123 combo in an approximation of how many times they would be used between each of the three aforementioned abilities.