6.0 Summoner: Thoughts on an Unsuccessful Rework After 1 Month of Gameplay

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

I still play SMN because I can't let go but it really doesn't satisfy me. Not even my summons make me proud as they're nothing but aesthetics and deep down I can't overlook that.

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Same but I only use it for dungeons every now and then. Mainly when I'm tired and want to go smooth brain and not think about anything. It's my autopilot class now

This is all well and good if you consider decision-making paramount to how good or fun a job is -- which is subjective in itself. Personally, I'm all for variety. As someone who mained WHM throughout the years, which mostly devolved into throwing stones or manually spamming Stoneskin (and being meme'd on by more "engaging" healers), and isn't all that different despite all the reworks and changes, this doesn't apply to me.

I played all casters (except SMN) to 80/90 and recently went on a rant about how I never had interest in SMN the other day, old or new, until I realized that I had never really given it a chance. It was just 'that job' which was tied to my levelling of SCH, when I had already gotten many DPS, Healers and Tanks to max and enjoyed them enough to not branch out any more. So, over the last few days, I decided to at least give it a try, and I have no comparison bias as I never bothered with it before the rework.

First thing I noticed is that doing their job-quests (after Endwalker MSQ, and especially its respective Healer role-quest) really goes against the entire story. The second was the absolute lack of buttons. It is hands down the most noticeable when it comes to being a hot-bar graveyard, even compared to MCH and RDM. Yes, I know -- if you treated all the hidden buttons as normal buttons this would be different, but still. Having said that, I'd be lying if I didn't say the simplicity wasn't nice -- given I mostly play very busy jobs, so something different is always welcome. The fact it can cast 99% of its spells on the move is something I will always appreciate, as is the ability to raise, even if RDM does it infinitely better.

The damage isn't bad by any stretch, though I can only discuss low-end content. I'm obviously not rocking Ultimates and Aspho Savage on a job I haven't played, but those I've seen playing it alongside me have never noticeably underperformed, and while levelling through dungeons is the absolute worst gauge of anything, I'm certainly dominating that side of it too.

Admittedly, it is very simple. Aside from maybe misplacing the odd oGCD, it's hard for even someone like me to fail. The damage may not be rocking the universe, but Baha/Pheo always feels like a mini-nuke phase, and you're never left out so hard that all you can do is mash Ruin. It may not require a lot of thinking, but you're always doing something, as simple as it is. I can appreciate that, but that will irk people who enjoy a bit of complexity -- which I also do on other jobs -- but there's something to be said for how it plays now. Ultimately, it will all boil down to subjectives and preferences. The logs and comparisons I've seen haven't placed SMN badly at all -- outside of the fact that other jobs are more commonly played up at the top. I mean, RDM has always been the go-to caster, much like BLM has often been lauded for immobility. As untrue as that is now, it is still an inflexible turret, and also waiting damage buffs.

TLDR -- I would never see myself maining this, but I can't fathom how one might say it fails, or that the rework is bad, unless you merely preferred how it was. If it's a case of damage or placement, such things are merely a few tweaks away. If it's complexity, well... Join the various other clubs. It's fun seeing the WoW refugees push over into high-end raiding with little class knowledge and bemoan how WHM still remains little more than a glare-bot with nothing to do, or how certain other DPS jobs also retain a very stringent one-note rotation and little else.

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

I think comparing Vercure to the Phoenix heal doesn't work as you have Phoenix only every two minutes. I've been in countless situations where it did absolutely nothing as everybody was in full health, where as you can use Vercure whenever you want and you can keep a tank or yourself long enough to chain raise the healers and they handle the rest. Just do Vercure > Verraise > Vercure > Verraise > Vercure and so on. It's more useful than what SMN has on every level.

In my personal opinion, SMN should do more damage, however I don't want to get that "for free". I want more buttons to press and more cast times to earn myself that. As many people have said before, SMN right now is a good foundation, but we're at level 90. There should be at least some kind of complexity involved that makes the job engaging and rewarding when playing.

I still play SMN because I can't let go but it really doesn't satisfy me. Not even my summons make me proud as they're nothing but aesthetics and deep down I can't overlook that.

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People can say summoner has Physick, costs less, can be cast faster and has a higher heal potency... Too bad it does not scale with INT which is summoners main stat... I just do not understand this ability for summoner at all. They should really re-think this ability too. Why is it there and what is its purpose. Cause ATM its a button I only use in low level dungeons in crisis and that's it.

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

I think comparing Vercure to the Phoenix heal doesn't work as you have Phoenix only every two minutes. I've been in countless situations where it did absolutely nothing as everybody was in full health, where as you can use Vercure whenever you want and you can keep a tank or yourself long enough to chain raise the healers and they handle the rest. Just do Vercure > Verraise > Vercure > Verraise > Vercure and so on. It's more useful than what SMN has on every level.

In my personal opinion, SMN should do more damage, however I don't want to get that "for free". I want more buttons to press and more cast times to earn myself that. As many people have said before, SMN right now is a good foundation, but we're at level 90. There should be at least some kind of complexity involved that makes the job engaging and rewarding when playing.

I still play SMN because I can't let go but it really doesn't satisfy me. Not even my summons make me proud as they're nothing but aesthetics and deep down I can't overlook that.

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This is such a ridiculous take on the subject.

Nobody should be using vercure for any reason when there's an enemy targetable. It's a GCD that does zero damage and as a DPS that is unacceptable to use. Comparing it to Phoenix heal is a huge joke, Phoenix heal is something that happens incidentally while simply performing your normal damage rotation on Summoner, but vercure use reduces RDM GCD damage output to zero. Phoenix heal is far more useful than vercure will ever be.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

TLDR -- I would never see myself maining this, but I can't fathom how one might say it fails, or that the rework is bad, unless you merely preferred how it was. If it's a case of damage or placement, such things are merely a few tweaks away. If it's complexity, well... Join the various other clubs. It's fun seeing the WoW refugees push over into high-end raiding with little class knowledge and bemoan how WHM still remains little more than a glare-bot with nothing to do, or how certain other DPS jobs also retain a very stringent one-note rotation and little else.

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I'll give you a different perspective. This rework failed because it failed to completely fix the complaints this job had. Essentially what they did was not fix most issues but instead remove DoTs (a very disliked thing thematically, so sure I'll take it) and the pet class element (which still exists as Carbuncle, so not completely) and then added in bigger, flashier summons which something people asked for in years which is at least good, but not enough to justify the rework.

I've listed out more issues in detail but it's a couple pages back somewhere now.

Also a job being simple to pick up and play is completely fine, but it's not healthy for a job to be extremely easy to master either. It's boring. There's no incentive to maximize what you do.
People were under the impression that SMN was the most complex job ever but it... really wasn't. It had a very straightforward priority flowchart. Also people misunderstood its past issues were what made it complex and old SMN players liked it, but no we absolutely not, we only dealt with it. We wanted them gone, and unfortunately some of those issues still linger with this rework.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This is such a ridiculous take on the subject.

Nobody should be using vercure for any reason when there's an enemy targetable. It's a GCD that does zero damage and as a DPS that is unacceptable to use. Comparing it to Phoenix heal is a huge joke, Phoenix heal is something that happens incidentally while simply performing your normal damage rotation on Summoner, but vercure use reduces RDM GCD damage output to zero. Phoenix heal is far more useful than vercure will ever be.

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You are really overreacting and the only ridiculous take is yours, no offense.

Vercure can be used in emergencies and the fact that is available at any time is what makes it powerful. Everyone knows it's on the GCD and that it should be avoided as much as possible, which is why the example was "healers are dead and you have to keep people alive while raising".

RDM can do that, SMN can't (on demand). SMN has strong heals you cannot control which leads to a) heals being wasted because no healing is needed or b) heals being redundant because a healer is already taking care of the raidwide anyway.

Vercure is niche, but helpful, powerful and reliable when you actually end up needing it. It's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by rewd

You are really overreacting and the only ridiculous take is yours, no offense.

Vercure can be used in emergencies and the fact that is available at any time is what makes it powerful. Everyone knows it's on the GCD and that it should be avoided as much as possible, which is why the example was "healers are dead and you have to keep people alive while raising".

RDM can do that, SMN can't (on demand). SMN has strong heals you cannot control which leads to a) heals being wasted because no healing is needed or b) heals being redundant because a healer is already taking care of the raidwide anyway.

Vercure is niche, but helpful, powerful and reliable when you actually end up needing it. It's not that hard.

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I think both kinda suck.
RDM: permanent access to heal but sacrifices DPS.
SMN: very limited access to heal but doesn't sacrifice DPS

Both suck in their own way. Allthough I personally prefer RDM's heal for casual/solo stuff where how much dps you do doesn't really matter. Where SMN's heal could be more useful if the situation arises at the right time without them having to sacrifice dps in harder content I suppose.
Either way SMN seems to have this problem a lot with their shield & buff as well. It's bad design and I hope SE re-reworks parts of SMN (I don't mean revert parts.)

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Originally Posted by rewd

You are really overreacting and the only ridiculous take is yours, no offense.

Vercure can be used in emergencies and the fact that is available at any time is what makes it powerful. Everyone knows it's on the GCD and that it should be avoided as much as possible, which is why the example was "healers are dead and you have to keep people alive while raising".

RDM can do that, SMN can't (on demand). SMN has strong heals you cannot control which leads to a) heals being wasted because no healing is needed or b) heals being redundant because a healer is already taking care of the raidwide anyway.

Vercure is niche, but helpful, powerful and reliable when you actually end up needing it. It's not that hard.

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Thank you for pointing that out.
I was kinda expecting for someone to show up and make a derogatory comment because that's how forums just work ig but I'm glad you stepped forward to explain.

I think people underestimate SMN's heals. Phoenix raidwide regen is meh because we can't use it whenever we want, but Rekindle is another deal. It is a 1400 potency regen that triggers like an Excog on a 30s timer. We can put it on the main tank and get the full value out of it (unless the boss is not hitting the tank for more than 30s, which is probably downtime where we shouldn't summon Phoenix in the first place). It's free to cast and might save the healer a healing spell on the tank.

Rekindle won't clutch save a raid with 3 raises in a row on the healers while spot healing the tank when everything goes south, but when things are going OK that's a pretty good ability imo.

I think new summoner is fine tbh - it’s way better than the previous iteration where death was a huge dps loss and it felt like a job you needed maximum effort for little reward. Also it didn’t feel like a summoner - just a dot class that occasionally summoned pets.

BLM is still available if you want to optimise and there’s probably still some room on summoner to optimise if you’re really good.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

SMN has a solid foundation. Looking forward to how they'll improve it. Love how it plays.

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Solid foundation at level 90, y'all crack me up.

https://c.tenor.com/wIxFiobxxbIAAAAd...ameson-lol.gif

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The sad thing is how easy it is to make them something we'd care about. Automaton Queen already has half the equation, flexible timing. Both, though, need interaction.

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Sadly drill 3 making it a 100 battery per 60sec removed most of its flexibility versus the old 80 on top of the 2 finishers

But yeah, SMN is very lacking, I did the tier as smn and ... still managed to ghost the pet if I needed to delay the buff it's even more ping affected in demis. On top of that, the job is very bad with delaying, delaying baha is always a big no or you're stuck ruining with no other options, and if you don't delay baha but just searing: gl with searing light later in the few seconds your carby is up. Cant imagine how sps smn is played.

I like the rework.., it can make me a bit sleepy on easy content (but not near as bad as tanks or physical ranged on easy content), but on harder content, it feels fun, with a bit of strategizing and (primal order, to be ready for burst or movement, rota order of 2 primals, fot similar reasons, feels rewarding,.. when pulling off on fights the "can always move if needed, 100% uptime"..., which is NOT a given in harder content)

... BUT just give us ONE dot back, let it line up with a rota timing or something (make it a short but strong dot or something)..., and the dot could be the dps increase Smn need
... that said, more than a dot, Smn needs a buff

So I dogged on smn in a thread or 2 for being a 2 button job, but having just levelled it to 90, I ended up liking it the most of the casters. That said, my opinion probably shouldn't be trusted!

1. I hate casters. I hate the aesthetic and I hate casting spells with any regularity. Having to stand still sucks.

2. I am easily impressed by flash and smn had the most.

So it was satisfying to push their almost nonexistant buttons and I got to ignore castbars for the most part outside of 2 ifrit casts and 1 garuda cast so by virtue of having to cast the fewest spells, it won me over, especially once I got ifrit's melee combo. Do I think they should leave it as is? Probably not, but they kinda designed themselves into a hole where everything revolves around the summons and if they add a button to one summon they probably have to add it to all of them, which is 3-5x the work crafting animations. Also, while I liked it the most of the casters, that doesn't really bring it up all that high on my personal job rankings list.

Comparing actual SMN to the last expansion, i like this.

But there are some things that i dont find adecuate or just limit my gameplay:

• Carbuncle: There are 2 skills which depends on this summon and sometimes i find myself in the need to to cast radiant aegis or searing light and carbuncle is not there, so i question, why do i need carbuncle to cast these spells? i find better to remove it and use it as a glamour in the elemental summons or as an arcanist when leveling.
  
• Soul Drain/Syphon, Fester/Painflare: I find these boring, 60 sec cd, no cd in fester/painflare, no synergy with any spell, this needs something, like a combo bonus with another spell or provide a combo bonus to other spell.

Finally, i think that Dots must be back, Miasma as a single target and Bio as Aoe (this is just my proposal), these were very integrated in the Summoner theme.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Solid foundation at level 90, y'all crack me up.

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This is the same garbage people are saying about Monk now. A "solid foundation" after *four* expansions? One that players don't get to really fully experience until mid way through what, the second expansion, unless they choose to buy a skip to get to what is ostensibly the "good part" of the job?

There's a thread on this forum right now asking what, exactly, constitutes giving a "fair shot" to a job before moving on. If summoner comes together at, say, the mid-80s if we're being generous, there is probably something fundamentally wrong with the design of the job from the ground up, even after the current rework.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

This is the same garbage people are saying about Monk now. A "solid foundation" after *four* expansions? One that players don't get to really fully experience until mid way through what, the second expansion, unless they choose to buy a skip to get to what is ostensibly the "good part" of the job?

There's a thread on this forum right now asking what, exactly, constitutes giving a "fair shot" to a job before moving on. If summoner comes together at, say, the mid-80s if we're being generous, there is probably something fundamentally wrong with the design of the job from the ground up, even after the current rework.

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That sounds like far less of an issue with Summoner and far more of an issue with the games design entirely. Not to be that person, but which job actually feels fun to play at it's lower levels, especially the area you listed at Heavensward? Thinking of my most played job at every role:

-Gunbreaker? Feels absolutely awful with no continuation, heart of stone, blood fest (heck you dont get that one till 76, and thats basically the ability that makes Gunbreakers opener possible).

-Bard? No Trobadour, no minne, no refulgent, no apex/blasting, no radiant finale, enhanced empyreal arrow trait, or Shadow Bite

-Astro? No Earthly Star, no Neautral Sect, no horoscope, no minor arcana, no macro cosmos.

-Samurai? Maybe one of the absolute worst experiences at being leveled down in the game. No, hagakure, ikishoten, every single one of the Hissatsu abilities, extra charge on Meikyo Shisui, Tsubame Geshi, Shoha, and Ogi Namikiri all gone.

Compare all that with summoner. No Bahamut, Pheonix, and the favors. Big adds yes. Sucks to not have them. But no different then what you are dealing with on other jobs. And those are just the ones I play the most. Every job feels like crap at lower levels. Thats one of the issues that the game faces the higher in levels we get with how it level syncs and gates the kit. It's not like Heavensward when 20-30 some odd abilities were being stretched across only 60 levels and 2 games worth of content. Now it's 20-30 abilities being stretched across 90 levels and 5 games worth of content. That is not an issue with Summoner, thats an issue with the games progression, and one that isn't easily answered.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

That sounds like far less of an issue with Summoner and far more of an issue with the games design entirely. Not to be that person, but which job actually feels fun to play at it's lower levels, especially the area you listed at Heavensward? Thinking of my most played job at every role:

-Gunbreaker? Feels absolutely awful with no continuation, heart of stone, blood fest (heck you dont get that one till 76, and thats basically the ability that makes Gunbreakers opener possible).

-Bard? No Trobadour, no minne, no refulgent, no apex/blasting, no radiant finale, enhanced empyreal arrow trait, or Shadow Bite

-Astro? No Earthly Star, no Neautral Sect, no horoscope, no minor arcana, no macro cosmos.

-Samurai? Maybe one of the absolute worst experiences at being leveled down in the game. No, hagakure, ikishoten, every single one of the Hissatsu abilities, extra charge on Meikyo Shisui, Tsubame Geshi, Shoha, and Ogi Namikiri all gone.

Compare all that with summoner. No Bahamut, Pheonix, and the favors. Big adds yes. Sucks to not have them. But no different then what you are dealing with on other jobs. And those are just the ones I play the most. Every job feels like crap at lower levels. Thats one of the issues that the game faces the higher in levels we get with how it level syncs and gates the kit. It's not like Heavensward when 20-30 some odd abilities were being stretched across only 60 levels and 2 games worth of content. Now it's 20-30 abilities being stretched across 90 levels and 5 games worth of content. That is not an issue with Summoner, thats an issue with the games progression, and one that isn't easily answered.

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They never mentioned Heavensward and you know you are really grasping at straws when you mention Troubadour (essentially a role action), Minne (niche skill at best), Refulgent Arrow (animation and potency update) or Apex Arrow (tacked on capstone abilities everyone rightfully complained about) as things that make Bard "fun".

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Originally Posted by rewd

They never mentioned Heavensward and you know you are really grasping at straws when you mention Troubadour (essentially a role action), Minne (niche skill at best), Refulgent Arrow (animation and potency update) or Apex Arrow (tacked on capstone abilities everyone rightfully complained about) as things that make Bard "fun".

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Those abilities are some of my favorite ones added and were some of the best parts of Stormblood Bard. So you do you, don't tell me what is or isn't fun. Your the one grasping at straws when you can only pull 4 abilities out of the over 20 I used to make my point. By 2nd expansion I thought they meant Heavensward as plenty people have referred to ARR as the first expansion after 1.0. Even if they do mean Stormblood though, nothing changes about my point. Most jobs STILL feel like crap at 70. Every single job loses critical parts of it's kit when they get synced down 4 years of content.

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Originally Posted by rewd

They never mentioned Heavensward and you know you are really grasping at straws when you mention Troubadour (essentially a role action), Minne (niche skill at best), Refulgent Arrow (animation and potency update) or Apex Arrow (tacked on capstone abilities everyone rightfully complained about) as things that make Bard "fun".

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Dude, not having what is effectively a role action until past heavensward feels pretty atrocious.

But also, bard only getting what are minor additions/updates and QoL is effectively what Summoner gets as well. Their core of the kit is obtained pretty early relative to other jobs.
Also, again let's be real, Bard is one of the best jobs in terms of scaling down in level. I do agree it's a weird comparison, but even still as one of the best jobs to level down with, it's no where NEAR an enjoyable experience level synching down.

It is a fault of the game that people have pointed out for a while now, that level synch removing abilities is brutal and harmful to the overall leveling experience. Low level jobs just aren't allowed to be complete.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Those abilities are some of my favorite ones added and were some of the best parts of Stormblood Bard. So you do you, don't tell me what is or isn't fun. Your the one grasping at straws when you can only pull 4 abilities out of the over 20 I used to make my point. By 2nd expansion I thought they meant Heavensward as plenty people have referred to ARR as the first expansion after 1.0. Even if they do mean Stormblood though, nothing changes about my point. Most jobs STILL feel like crap at 70. Every single job loses critical parts of it's kit when they get synced down 4 years of content.

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Your "point" is based on huge reading comprehension issues.

If SMN's kit comes together at level 86, that's a huge design problem.
If SMN's kit is the only one that comes together at level 86, that's a SMN problem.
If what seemingly makes SMN's kit come together at level 86 still only makes it on par with a level 60 job as far as depth is concerned, that's a huge problem with the fundamental design of the job.

I'm glad you are aware of the fact that level sync is bad. I can stay tuned for more shocking news at 12. Too bad that has nothing to do with SMN and also get more ridiculous the more you post about it. Not to mention how laughable it is to make a general statement and then think you can still play the "but that's like my opinion" card, making your "point" irrefutable because who am I to tell you that Nature's Minne is not a critical skill in BRD's kit?

I'm delighted that I had the opportunity to found out that you get your happy chemicals from using Nature's Minne. I really am. But next time, maybe, let's make sure we have actually understood what the discussion is about, aye?

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Originally Posted by rewd

I'm delighted that I had the opportunity to found out that you get your happy chemicals from using Nature's Minne. I really am. But next time, maybe, let's make sure we have actually understood what the discussion is about, aye?

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Still resulting to petty insults to try and win arguments like you have since your first post huh? The moment you actually can raise a point as well as you raise your testosterone levels, you might actually be worth debating.

I like the new animations and playstyle. It's easier than before, but it also feels like a mix of a class healer(rez/buff) with summoner job stone, not a bio mage with unresponsive pets.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Still resulting to petty insults to try and win arguments like you have since your first post huh? The moment you actually can raise a point as well as you raise your testosterone levels, you might actually be worth debating.

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My words are only "petty insults" if you choose to see them as such because you'd rather attack my choice of words and not my arguments.

If you want to feel offended because it would distract people from noticing the weakness of your arguments, then keep being offended. It won't change the fact that you misunderstood the comment you replied to and that you took a statement about MNK and made it about SMN, completely misunderstanding what the discussion was about.

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Originally Posted by smol_cofe

I like the new animations and playstyle. It's easier than before, but it also feels like a mix of a class healer(rez/buff) with summoner job stone, not a bio mage with unresponsive pets.

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Well the joke on you the utility is bad, rdm can raise better and pet is still unresponsive

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Well the joke on you the utility is bad, rdm can raise better and pet is still unresponsive

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Also good luck if you need to delay Searing Light.

I'd agree that it feels like half a healer too, the gameplay loop feels very similar.

I can only hope after the next balance patch that some people will take the time they need to accept the changes and either stay with the job or move on.

If you ask me the real problem with Summoner is that they designed it like it was to be a support-oriented-utility-off-healer ‘caster’…then gave it next to no support or utility outside of the very limited window Everlasting Flight and Rekindle become available.

Resurrection is powerful utility to have on a dps sure, but it’s not like we have to use it that often. Radiant Shield only affects ourselves, Searing Light is just a standard ‘press during raid buffs’ ability which would be fine if the job wasn’t designed like we’re supposed to be taking advantage of a simplistic dps rotation to focus on timing our non-existent utility / support skills.

I say let Summoners use Physick scaled off Intelligence, give us more oGCD support abilities that come from Carbuncle so it has a reason to exist (I feel so bad summoning it and it just stands there doing nothing lol), make Radiant Shield useable on a party member for a weaker shield effect. I mean if they want to go down that route there’s quite a few abilities Summoner/Arcanist had that’d fit. Eye for An Eye (more of a Scholar skill but let’s pretend it’s not lol), Virus, Shadow Flare, Contagion (when it affected magic defense not the dot extender lol). Personally I think leaning into Summoner’s utility is a good direction to take the job…assuming they ever actually take the first steps of

Let’s just hope it’s not another Bard where they design it for utility/support…then remove it…then return it…then remove it again…then return it except better than what its competitors have lol…

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I can only hope after the next balance patch that some people will take the time they need to accept the changes and either stay with the job or move on.

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I will keep these threads alive until the day Summoner is fixed, thank you kindly.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Resurrection is powerful utility to have on a dps sure, but it’s not like we have to use it that often.

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Fun fact, did you know they've quietly fixed the 'bug' where trances still granted a 2.5s cast time reduction? This was something that trances possessed in Shadowbringers, and which is ostensibly no longer the case in Endwalker. They forgot to actually remove that functionality though. It was only fixed in patch 6.05, and it was not listed anywhere in the patch notes.

Now, I never expected it to stick around since new tooltips don't mention it, fair play. I found out about it by accident casting physick with a trance active. But I cannot stress enough how significant it is for them to follow through with fixing this bug.

The 5.5s raises that trances granted were the only thing keeping summoner at parity with red mage in raise potential. I say 'parity', but truthfully that's kind of a cope too. Someone had to die when you had a trance available, giving you little personal agency in capitalizing on it (sound familiar?) There is a massive difference between 2s and 5.5s casts in real settings too. With the former you can sneak in cheeky dualcasted raises while dodging aoes, while with the latter, it can be difficult to even find a moment to stand still for that long.

This means summoner is now objectively and unquestionably worse at raising than red mage. They are basically only as good as healers now - one swiftcast and that's it. Ideally their damage output should reflect this reduction in utility, but we'll see. They'll be in a pretty unfortunate state otherwise, and red mage will trump them in practically every relevant situation and metric going forward.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Resurrection is powerful utility to have on a dps sure, but it’s not like we have to use it that often. Radiant Shield only affects ourselves, Searing Light is just a standard ‘press during raid buffs’ ability which would be fine if the job wasn’t designed like we’re supposed to be taking advantage of a simplistic dps rotation to focus on timing our non-existent utility / support skills.

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They simply need to make it a role class ability and remove it off the board of discussion as to what jobs should be doing what kind of damage.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

They simply need to make it a role class ability and remove it off the board of discussion as to what jobs should be doing what kind of damage.

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I’m 100% not okay with BLM having infinite res spam and back to back raises on the move and I’m absolutely certain the devs aren’t either. The fact it was harder to pull off on Summoner is what kept their extra MP for it balanced.

DPS res is fine as a cost. If BLM gets any form of parity on that it would have to be a self-only res from death.

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Originally Posted by Connor

If you ask me the real problem with Summoner is that they designed it like it was to be a support-oriented-utility-off-healer ‘caster’…then gave it next to no support or utility outside of the very limited window Everlasting Flight and Rekindle become available.

Resurrection is powerful utility to have on a dps sure, but it’s not like we have to use it that often. Radiant Shield only affects ourselves, Searing Light is just a standard ‘press during raid buffs’ ability which would be fine if the job wasn’t designed like we’re supposed to be taking advantage of a simplistic dps rotation to focus on timing our non-existent utility / support skills.

I say let Summoners use Physick scaled off Intelligence, give us more oGCD support abilities that come from Carbuncle so it has a reason to exist (I feel so bad summoning it and it just stands there doing nothing lol), make Radiant Shield useable on a party member for a weaker shield effect. I mean if they want to go down that route there’s quite a few abilities Summoner/Arcanist had that’d fit. Eye for An Eye (more of a Scholar skill but let’s pretend it’s not lol), Virus, Shadow Flare, Contagion (when it affected magic defense not the dot extender lol). Personally I think leaning into Summoner’s utility is a good direction to take the job…assuming they ever actually take the first steps of

Let’s just hope it’s not another Bard where they design it for utility/support…then remove it…then return it…then remove it again…then return it except better than what its competitors have lol…

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There is a lot of good utility to be had on SMN and they could add more of it certainly, I would love that for this job. The problem is that the utility we have tied to Carbuncle is unavailable most of the time since he despawns often and is unavailable during the Bahamut/Phoenix phase, and the regen which is actually of a useful potency on Phoenix is only available during the window it is summoned. As it is now any utility that is offered by SMN has to align with the rotation window that it is available in, regen is useless no matter it's potency if there is no reason to use it during the short window it is available.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I’m 100% not okay with BLM having infinite res spam and back to back raises on the move and I’m absolutely certain the devs aren’t either. The fact it was harder to pull off on Summoner is what kept their extra MP for it balanced.

DPS res is fine as a cost. If BLM gets any form of parity on that it would have to be a self-only res from death.

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Ability, not spell. 60s or 120s recast timer oGCD.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Ability, not spell. 60s or 120s recast timer oGCD.

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Cause making it free would help make it 'balanced'....

My personal take on summoner; the summoning of the 3 primals over and over again gets boring and repetitive. On top of that, too simple now compared to what it used to be.

I'm not saying it's worse or better, I guess? I just wish there was....more to it than what we got.
I found myself trying other casters when had mained SMN for a long time, but it's just not my favorite anymore.

I wish the primals were somehow implemented differently.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Cause making it free would help make it 'balanced'....

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You have effectively infinite MP if not for rezzing. And the MP cost certainly aren't limiting you to a single rez per 2 minutes. What Dyvid's suggesting is far less "free" than the present situation.

If you're speaking in terms of uptime, note that not every oGCD has lacked a cast time.

I still don't think a cooldown is a decent solution, nor do I want that capacity to be standardized across casters as a whole, but that form of rez not costing MP, when you have nothing else to, in effect (i.e., when paired with LD used on cooldown), to spend MP on anyways is quite an odd complaint.

Smn now has a MP issues, if they need to rez late into a longer fight, ..

MP drops somehow continually, where MP can be too low for a rez, or just barely able to make the rez..

Lucid dreaming fixes this.., but this can happen: u want rez, it doesn't go off (instant check if out of range), than after already losing time / dps, realise MP is too low, than hit Lucid, wait for MP to go, than finally rez
... Smn & Rdm should always be able to rez aka have enough MP, without making lucid a part of our rota

(while going for the kill of like savages, I press Lucid in between times during the fight , just to make sure i can rez later, if needed)

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

Hey can we all agree to leave the theme behind and actually focus on the gameplay being a big problem? "BuT iT's aN aCtUaL sUmMoNeR!!11!!!" is not an argument at this point any more as it seems like it's the only point of defence you can think of while countless of others are articulating what is exactly wrong from a gameplay perspective. Not even touching on the thematic.

For me, the lack of gameplay, decision making and more actually forced me out of my job of seven years. Setting the bar so low that all the other classes which bored me before are more interesting now. That alone should tell that the current state isn't a very good one. More and more people are starting to see this and the sole reason why we're on the forums talking about it is so that our voices can be heard.

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Hit the nail on the head. I thought it was fun too, at first, until the spectacle wore off and I realized just how boring the rotation has become. I liked the gameplay of SB and ShB Summoner. I didn't really hate the DoTs, but given my experience with Summoners from previous FF games this Summoners focus on them felt odd. Still the class fantasy of this one is at least in a better place.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Cause making it free would help make it 'balanced'....

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Brother!?!?!?