SE FINALLY ANSWERED THE HEALERS COMMUNITY LONG ANSWERED QUESTION

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Serious question, do you do Savage?

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You can simply check their logs tbh

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

What fights in any of the ShB tiers have you done that have had so much going wrong/going on mechanically in the first 60 seconds that you feel the need to hold Dissipation? Are you pugging via PF?
I've only ever pugged Savage and I've never had these problems within the first 60 seconds, especially when you need to be contributing as much DPS as you can within buff windows to ensure you're not hitting enrage at the end of a fight.

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Tons think about anything that can go wrong like deaths etc

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Or maybe it's just right? Spamming broil is extremely fun, it's a satisfying spell to land something like Jhin 4th shot, and once EW comes it won't be so boring for people like you since you can weave your optimal dps ED in it.

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God damn... who hurt you?

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Originally Posted by VeolE

God damn... who hurt you?

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Idk, maybe I just prefer broil to John madden or 5.0 smn.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

You can simply check their logs tbh

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To be fair, I've only got uploaded logs for my E5S clear, so it's very possible they could not have any, but...

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Tons think about anything that can go wrong like deaths etc

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Can you name me any specific fights in any Eden (Savage) tier that you've done where this is the case? That's what I'm asking, not what CAN go wrong, but fights where these sort of things are happening immediately.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

To be fair, I've only got uploaded logs for my E5S clear, so it's very possible they could not have any, but...


Can you name me any specific fights in any Eden (Savage) tier that you've done where this is the case? That's what I'm asking, not what CAN go wrong, but fights where these sort of things are happening immediately.

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Sadly no, I missed this savage tier when it was hot, and since none of the gear is worth it anymore there is no point in doing it. I'll be doing 6.0 thought when it comes out first week.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Sadly no, I missed this savage tier when it was hot, and since none of the gear is worth it anymore there is no point in doing it. I'll be doing 6.0 thought when it comes out first week.

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Okay so you're saying you missed EVERY tier in Eden, when you just previously just told me that you do Savage? You've also previously stated that you quit healing at level 12 in 2.0, and you came back for 5.0 on it. So are you healing Savage in Shadowbringers or not?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Okay so you're saying you missed EVERY tier in Eden, when you just previously just told me that you do Savage? You've also previously stated that you quit healing at level 12 in 2.0, and you came back for 5.0 on it. So are you healing Savage in Shadowbringers or not?

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Did SB savage, not SHB didn't realize how content was released so after I cleared the extreme trials in SHB, I quit to go play league for a long time.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Did SB savage, not SHB didn't realize how content was released so after I cleared the extreme trials in SHB, I quit to go play league for a long time.

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Okay, so you're talking about 3-4 year old content, that you presumably also did not heal based on previous comments, when everyone else is discussing the game currently. You haven't done Savage as a healer in Shadowbringers, yet you're saying things like the Scholar opener is a "noob trap", saying you need to hold aetherflow for things "hitting the fan", and that there's no reason to "pretend to be a DPS" when the fights in Eden demand that you do high DPS or you won't clear.
Do you understand how this can cause frustration with you when you talk authoritatively on content you're not doing/haven't done? You don't know what it's like to play a healer in Savage in 5.x, yet you're telling all of us that we're wrong not only in how we're saying to play the job, but also that we're wrong in feeling like it's unfulfilling and is incredibly monotonous. You're making up scenarios about Savage and then you're telling us, the people who have done the content, that we're wrong and that your understanding of the job is better than those who play it at a higher level?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Okay, so you're talking about 3-4 year old content, that you presumably also did not heal based on previous comments, when everyone else is discussing the game currently. You haven't done Savage as a healer in Shadowbringers, yet you're saying things like the Scholar opener is a "noob trap", saying you need to hold aetherflow for things "hitting the fan", and that there's no reason to "pretend to be a DPS" when the fights in Eden demand that you do high DPS or you won't clear.
Do you understand how this can cause frustration with you when you talk authoritatively on content you're not doing/haven't done? You don't know what it's like to play a healer in Savage in 5.x, yet you're telling all of us that we're wrong not only in how we're saying to play the job, but also that we're wrong in feeling like it's unfulfilling and is incredibly monotonous. You're making up scenarios about Savage and then you're telling us, the people who have done the content, that we're wrong and that your understanding of the job is better than those who play it at a higher level?

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What I'm saying is that, its obvious that in higher content, or rather the better a player you are, gear etc that you will have to heal less. What I'm saying is I get that "raiders" are bored from broil spam, but the game isn't meant to just cater to raiders only type players, who are obsessed with their parsing in all content. If adding more healing [mechanics/buttons] makes it too hard for the non raiders it shouldn't be considered. And for the record yes, I could do savage this tier if I wanted to, except its not worth it right now since gear isn't worth it. I'll 100% be doing it though in 6.0 seeing as I'm interested now that I understand how patches flow in this game.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

What I'm saying is that, its obvious that in higher content, or rather the better a player you are, gear etc that you will have to heal less. What I'm saying is I get that "raiders" are bored from broil spam, but the game isn't meant to just cater to raiders only type players, who are obsessed with their parsing in all content. If adding more healing [mechanics/buttons] makes it too hard for the non raiders it shouldn't be considered. And for the record yes, I could do savage this tier if I wanted to, except its not worth it right now since gear isn't worth it. I'll 100% be doing it though in 6.0 seeing as I'm interested now that I understand how patches flow in this game.

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Time to dumb the DPS classes down to one button spam then. Making them more complex is "catering to parse obsessed raiders".

Healing in this game is. Not. Difficult. You don't need to be a cutting edge world firster to be bored with one button. You just need functioning synapses.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

What I'm saying is that, its obvious that in higher content, or rather the better a player you are, gear etc that you will have to heal less. What I'm saying is I get that "raiders" are bored from broil spam, but the game isn't meant to just cater to raiders only type players, who are obsessed with their parsing in all content. If adding more healing [mechanics/buttons] makes it too hard for the non raiders it shouldn't be considered. And for the record yes, I could do savage this tier if I wanted to, except its not worth it right now since gear isn't worth it. I'll 100% be doing it though in 6.0 seeing as I'm interested now that I understand how patches flow in this game.

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Thinking that only raiders and/or extremely skilled are boring of pressing broil over and over says a lot more about your quality as healer than you think, I'm not even counting all the bullshit about saying the opener is a "noob trap" or how you save AF stacks fot emergencies that simply do not happen, just that.

If I were you I'd consider learning how the job you say you main really works instead of coming here to give feedback that is actually poisonous for its design while treating everyone else as if they didn't know what they talk about, when actually the one who hasn't experienced the content and lacks the knowledge is you.

I'll just say, one shoudn't design for the bottom of the barrel only because if you do you'll end with a 1 button that does everything and even with that there will be people who will complain its too hard.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Time to dumb the DPS classes down to one button spam then. Making them more complex is "catering to parse obsessed raiders".

Healing in this game is. Not. Difficult. You don't need to be a cutting edge world firster to be bored with one button. You just need functioning synapses.

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Clearly you don’t understand the responsibility of your life being the most important or at least second important. If the healer dies and there is no raise on a caster that’s a wipe. That alone is why it’s much harder. You don’t get to make mistakes on a healer.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Thinking that only raiders and/or extremely skilled are boring of pressing broil over and over says a lot more about your quality as healer than you think, I'm not even counting all the bullshit about saying the opener is a "noob trap" or how you save AF stacks fot emergencies that simply do not happen, just that.

If I were you I'd consider learning how the job you say you main really works instead of coming here to give feedback that is actually poisonous for its design while treating everyone else as if they didn't know what they talk about, when actually the one who hasn't experienced the content and lacks the knowledge is you.

I'll just say, one shoudn't design for the bottom of the barrel only because if you do you'll end with a 1 button that does everything and even with that there will be people who will complain its too hard.

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I know how my job works just fine. I get how all the buttons work/combos/I’ve watched guides/read guides been to the balance etc. I fully understand the class, and assuming I don’t just because I like simplification is such a reach. For gods sakes I played 4.0/5.0 smn for pretty much both early expansions till I started liking healing que times/lack of complex rotation in SHB.

This is bait.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

This is bait.

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Not going to lie. I am starting to become amused anytime someone doesn’t think like you “raider hardcore” types you just call it “bait/trolling”

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

What I'm saying is that, its obvious that in higher content, or rather the better a player you are, gear etc that you will have to heal less. What I'm saying is I get that "raiders" are bored from broil spam, but the game isn't meant to just cater to raiders only type players, who are obsessed with their parsing in all content.

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Nobody here is saying the game should only be catered to raiders. I'm a "casual" raider at best, I don't really care about my parse and the clear is more important to me. This doesn't mean I do not want to put in the effort to get better at my job, because the better I am the more helpful I am to my team. This is a team game, and everything in it is a combined effort.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

If adding more healing [mechanics/buttons] makes it too hard for the non raiders it shouldn't be considered. And for the record yes, I could do savage this tier if I wanted to, except its not worth it right now since gear isn't worth it. I'll 100% be doing it though in 6.0 seeing as I'm interested now that I understand how patches flow in this game.

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That's the thing though; you can clear every bit of normal mode content in this game without doing any DPS. Seriously; get some friends together and try it. You do not have to do ANYTHING DPS wise as a healer to clear. DPS checks in normal mode are hilariously low to clear, and most of the time normal mode content doesn't even have an enrage check, the boss just keeps looping mechanics until it's cleared. If you wipe, you get echo to buff the party's HP and DPS! The game is set up in such a way that even the most casual of players can clear and experience the story, and I think that's a great thing: I don't want the normal content to be gatekept by anything, because we're all paying to play the game. But adding more options doesn't hurt you in anyway - it only helps by having more options for the people who do want to manage that and want to end the boredom we experience in playing healers.

And saying you "could" do Savage doesn't mean anything to what you're saying in this forum. You can do it now, there's 30ish days before Endwalker comes out, that's easily enough time to PUG at least E9S and E10S because there's a ton of people trying to get into Savage even now. Saying you're not doing it because the gear doesn't matter doesn't make any sense in any context, because when new raid tiers are out, the gear is immediately invalidated by crafting gear, and that's the case for every tier. I did Verse after it had been out a long time back during the content drought in 5.2, and even though I had a lot of augmented Crystarium gear, it was still challenging and fun. The gear only really helps you get clears easier in that tier of Savage or helps out those who are having trouble clearing the last floor of the tier.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

This is bait.

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I agree. Nobody is this dim.

At risk of biting the bait

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Enmity was the one thing I hated with a passion, i had to worry about doing too much damage???

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Oh come off if you arrogant raider. My god yes enmity was a problem back then and annoying

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I don't want to worry about a rotation, opener, or something optimal

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Yeah but the opener is a noob trap since doing that can leave you open to not having aetherflow, you can do it without dissipation dump just with regular aetherflow dump and save dissipation stacks for shit that could go wrong.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Its not my job to rely on my healer while I focus on "optimal dps" it's my job to keep my healing tools up and make sure that we are ready for shit hitting the fan, or worse if they die.

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^^

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I know how my job works just fine.[..] I fully understand the class[...]

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No, you don't

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

What I'm saying is that, its obvious that in higher content, or rather the better a player you are, gear etc that you will have to heal less. What I'm saying is I get that "raiders" are bored from broil spam, but the game isn't meant to just cater to raiders only type players, who are obsessed with their parsing in all content. If adding more healing [mechanics/buttons] makes it too hard for the non raiders it shouldn't be considered.

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And it has been stated and proven several times that the more available buttons to press does -not- equal to making gameplay (as in healing) harder to less experienced players. This is what people had been calling 'raising skill ceiling'. Less experienced will simply not care about optimizing their extra button potentials or probably won't even bother at all with those extra buttons. More experienced healers however can dabble around with their toys and still have fun.

Unsurprisingly :rolleyes: this ALSO applies to not only DPS buttons, but also our healing buttons. It is similarly reflected by your replies about how you handle your healing gameplay. Don't believe me? Here:

• Those "parsing obsessed raiders" plan to prevent emergencies. The two healers---pugs and/or static---plan to make sure majority bulk of healings are dealt with oGCDs (yes, including some mistake made) so they have can as much GCDs spent to cast Glaroilfisis. Succor/Medica II/Helioses/Cure II/Benefic II/Adlos are their readily available spell to use in case they run out of oGCDs and they -have- to use it to prevent deaths.
• Vs you who claimed to have done "EX/Savage" which are littered with plenty of random mistakes (which is already plain wrong) to the extent you have to plan to recover emergencies. You hold on to those tools for so long you'll probably drift or accumulate missed opportunities that you could've otherwise use to contribute more for your group. Oh and don't forget: you also openly admit that it wasn't your job to rely on your co-healer, which essentially gimps the overall group's capability whether you intend to or not. Your co-healer becomes uncertain how to work with you efficiently, increasing the likelihood of cases in wasting tools.

In other word, it doesn't matter even if SE gives us more healing button however potent or useful they are---if the said less experienced player simply do not care to improve... they won't. Your gameplay based on your replies are the living example to this.

Now if you're solely talking about progression, then by all means: go ahead and play in reserved manner. You are supposed to live as long as possible to increase the likelihood to learn & understand the encounter's mechanics...

Except we're not, which now only make sense: you 99.99% sure -never- heal ShB Savages. Your words are weightless as is your contribution to those 'hypothetical raids' you speak of.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Nobody here is saying the game should only be catered to raiders. I'm a "casual" raider at best, I don't really care about my parse and the clear is more important to me. This doesn't mean I do not want to put in the effort to get better at my job, because the better I am the more helpful I am to my team. This is a team game, and everything in it is a combined effort.



That's the thing though; you can clear every bit of normal mode content in this game without doing any DPS. Seriously; get some friends together and try it. You do not have to do ANYTHING DPS wise as a healer to clear. DPS checks in normal mode are hilariously low to clear, and most of the time normal mode content doesn't even have an enrage check, the boss just keeps looping mechanics until it's cleared. If you wipe, you get echo to buff the party's HP and DPS! The game is set up in such a way that even the most casual of players can clear and experience the story, and I think that's a great thing: I don't want the normal content to be gatekept by anything, because we're all paying to play the game. But adding more options doesn't hurt you in anyway - it only helps by having more options for the people who do want to manage that and want to end the boredom we experience in playing healers.

And saying you "could" do Savage doesn't mean anything to what you're saying in this forum. You can do it now, there's 30ish days before Endwalker comes out, that's easily enough time to PUG at least E9S and E10S because there's a ton of people trying to get into Savage even now. Saying you're not doing it because the gear doesn't matter doesn't make any sense in any context, because when new raid tiers are out, the gear is immediately invalidated by crafting gear, and that's the case for every tier. I did Verse after it had been out a long time back during the content drought in 5.2, and even though I had a lot of augmented Crystarium gear, it was still challenging and fun. The gear only really helps you get clears easier in that tier of Savage or helps out those who are having trouble clearing the last floor of the tier.

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Well I’m a carrot stick type of player. I guess I’m sorta lazy. I’m not going to do the challenge for challenge sake. Like if a cool glamour I need is in content then I’ll do it, if it’s a upgrade I MUST have sure but otherwise no. And I do care about getting better actually, I practice on the sky sea dummy sometimes as well. Trust me the only thing I care about is letting healer keep it’s non dps identity of a simplistic rotation/opener

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

At risk of biting the bait



^^




No, you don't

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Yes I do but I value the ability to be simplistic it’s why I play healer. If they ruin that then I’ll be forced to play tank sadly and the occasional smn.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

And it has been stated and proven several times that the more available buttons to press does -not- equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players. This is what people had been calling 'raising skill ceiling'. Less experienced will simply not care about optimizing their extra button potentials or probably won't even bother at all with those extra buttons. More experienced healers however can dabble around with their toys and still have fun.

Unsurprisingly :rolleyes: this ALSO applies to not only DPS buttons, but also our healing buttons. It is similarly reflected by your replies about how you handle your healing gameplay. Don't believe me? Here:

• Those "parsing obsessed raiders" plan to prevent emergencies. The two healers---pugs and/or static---plan to make sure majority bulk of healings are dealt with oGCDs (yes, including some mistake made) so they have can as much GCDs spent to cast Glaroilfisis. Succor/Medica II/Helioses/Cure II/Benefic II/Adlos are their readily available spell to use in case they run out of oGCDs and they -have- to use it to prevent deaths.
• Vs you who claimed to have done "EX/Savage" which are littered with plenty of random mistakes (which is already plain wrong) to the extent you have to plan to recover emergencies. You hold on to those tools for so long you'll probably drift or accumulate missed opportunities that you could've otherwise use to contribute more for your group. Oh and don't forget: you also openly admit that it wasn't your job to rely on your co-healer, which essentially gimps the overall group's capability whether you intend to or not. Your co-healer becomes uncertain how to work with you efficiently, increasing the likelihood of cases in wasting tools.

In other word, it doesn't matter even if SE gives us more healing button however potent or useful they are---if the said less experienced player simply do not care to improve... they won't. Your gameplay based on your replies are the living example to this.

of.

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Why would I drift??? Why would I not just keep casting and simply once the broil is cast do r2 and weave some ogcd heals? Your post makes no sense to me. Look it’s this simple. Every new option of button will result in some variation made to the opener/rotation in some obnoxious way for optimal dps. It never fails, but by forcing healers to have a simple range of buttons to increase dps and just buffing the potency all is well.
What you want is 5 buttons for 500 potency opener
What SE is giving you is 1 button/2 for 480 opener. The extra 3 buttons of work isn’t worth it.

If this comes off as a straw man than so be it but you get my point. Only people who are bored healing don’t like healing really and should just play dps, they want big rotations, and big ways to optimize. Not to save lives/the raid constantly from mistakes or forced raidwide dmg.

I mean if you check, they are green at best in nm/first tier of last expac.

This expac there's never anything that ask to get the fairy in the first minute, you can literally pop her regen etc before dissipation if you are that scared, but like in o9s my healers -casted- 2 heals. Even w1/2, aoes and stuff werent hitting hard enough to kill you in both first fights, like in e9s here's the 1 min timeline:

00:16: aoe
00:26: clock position/ 2 people stack
00:36: the one that wasnt used^
00:47: tank buster

the first one is covered by whatever first shield spread, so in the end there's like 2 aoes to heal, which you know you have a co healer. But even better! let's look at e10s:

00:10: aoe
00:24: front/back - dodge
00:33: circle around the boss - dodge
00:40: Left/right - dodge
00:52: tank buster

Wow that was such an intense healing, you needed your fairy so bad there! Especially for the very first aoe that was spread shie.... oh wait. And dw ... e11s there's damage only after 18 seconds then the next one 30 seconds later.. did I tell you about the prepull spread btw?

Oh and you can see they are very scary savage mechanics too that no casual ever saw: tank buster, aoe, spread, stack, left/right/front/back, point blank aoe.

Bonus: as you can see, everything is scripted af, you never have to keep "anything" just in case, as nothing is random, especally if you are healing for 4 years you should have learnt that.

I'm having flashbacks to that kook in Heavensward who claimed that using HoTs was "cheating".

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

I mean if you check, they are green at best in nm/first tier of last expac.

This expac there's never anything that ask to get the fairy in the first minute, you can literally pop her regen etc before dissipation if you are that scared, but like in o9s my healers -casted- 2 heals. Even w1/2, aoes and stuff werent hitting hard enough to kill you in both first fights, like in e9s here's the 1 min timeline:

00:16: aoe
00:26: clock position/ 2 people stack
00:36: the one that wasnt used^
00:47: tank buster

the first one is covered by whatever first shield spread, so in the end there's like 2 aoes to heal, which you know you have a co healer. But even better! let's look at e10s:

00:10: aoe
00:24: front/back - dodge
00:33: circle around the boss - dodge
00:40: Left/right - dodge
00:52: tank buster

Wow that was such an intense healing, you needed your fairy so bad there! Especially for the very first aoe that was spread shie.... oh wait. And dw ... e11s there's damage only after 18 seconds then the next one 30 seconds later.. did I tell you about the prepull spread btw?

Oh and you can see they are very scary savage mechanics too that no casual ever saw: tank buster, aoe, spread, stack, left/right/front/back, point blank aoe.

Bonus: as you can see, everything is scripted af, you never have to keep "anything" just in case, as nothing is random, especally if you are healing for 4 years you should have learnt that.

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I know the sch openers and I know that if you WD/FI before dissipating you keep the effects circumventing the cd. But dumping all your AF aka almost 6 stacks on damage for ED is reckless in my eyes. 4 maybe but 6???

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

I know the sch openers and I know that if you WD/FI before dissipating you keep the effects circumventing the cd. But dumping all your AF aka almost 6 stacks on damage for ED is reckless in my eyes. 4 maybe but 6???

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I mean, I showed you there's absolutely nothing that ask for it, what do you think, there's a magical random aoe that will appear in between the lines I sent?

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

What I'm saying is that, its obvious that in higher content, or rather the better a player you are, gear etc that you will have to heal less. What I'm saying is I get that "raiders" are bored from broil spam, but the game isn't meant to just cater to raiders only type players, who are obsessed with their parsing in all content.

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I never cleared a savage in my entire life, I can count on my fingers the extremes I've cleared, and I can't queue for roulette daily like I once did because I can't stand the glare spam. Even doing MsQ is a chore because I'm just spamming one button. You can't speak for all casuals, and you don't know if only people that raid are bored. I doubt the majority here are raiders, and regardless of that raiders should have their own voice in combat content since they're the ones actively taking part in it.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

snip

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You know what doesn't make most sense?
Claiming to have experienced and/or done current EX & Savages; spouting nonsenses that you very likely have close to 0 idea what you're talking about in those contents, THEN revealed later on that you played no part in said contents. Do you realize how this impacts your posts credibility? This is basically like you accepting a piece of job that requires a certain degree of credential then shows up at work saying: "Teehee! I don't know what I'm actually doing! I just feel <insert opinion>!"

In the end we're just going round and round in circles; Nizzi's replies to you are the best without sounding really mean.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

You can simply check their logs tbh

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

I mean if you check, they are green at best in nm/first tier of last expac.

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I mean I did, quite a while ago when they're starting to spout those nonsense in other recently active threads. I could not believe what I saw.
Don't get me wrong: I really do not want to dismiss the possibility of players not logging however unlikely it is (Nizzi covered that sentiment really well in their replies), that's why I mentioned "99.99% sure". But now it's crystal clear they are just plain clueless.

Think I'll just watch the smokes goes higher from hereon :(

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

And it has been stated and proven several times that the more available buttons to press does -not- equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players. This is what people had been calling 'raising skill ceiling'.

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The skill ceiling on healers are already higher than other roles if you were to take some look at fflogs.

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Less experienced will simply not care about optimizing their extra button potentials or probably won't even bother at all with those extra buttons. More experienced healers however can dabble around with their toys and still have fun.

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Not true. As my pervious reply in this thread, less experienced healers do care about their dps. With current 1 button spam, they can at least contribute steady dps when they are not healing. You rarely see healers who don't care about dps even at the lower end of fflogs. They want to clear, just as you do. They contribute dps whenever they're not healing. Maybe healing in this game is realy difficult to some people. However, unlike many people here claimed, skill ceiling does exist for healers. By adding more offensive options, you are actually creating a bigger gap between healers. Though the gap itself is fine by me, more available buttons to press does equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players. Less experienced healers do not mean they are all Sylphies.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The skill ceiling on healers are already higher than other roles if you were to take some look at fflogs.



Not true. As my pervious reply in this thread, less experienced healers do care about their dps. With current 1 button spam, they can at least contribute steady dps when they are not healing. You rarely see healers who don't care about dps even at the lower end of fflogs. They want to clear, just as you do. They contribute dps whenever they're not healing. Maybe healing in this game is realy difficult to some people. However, unlike many people here claimed, skill ceiling does exist for healers. By adding more offensive options, you are actually creating a bigger gap between healers. Though the gap itself is fine by me, more available buttons to press does equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players. Less experienced healers do not mean they are all Sylphies.

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But I feel like again the point is that it's normal for inexperienced players to struggle with things. After all, they ARE inexperienced. If I pick Black Mage right now, I will struggle a bit with my rotation at first. But, in this game, struggling rarely means failing. They'll struggle, because they are inexperienced, but they'll get experience and....... overcome it. Like any game with progression.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The skill ceiling on healers are already higher than other roles if you were to take some look at fflogs.



Not true. As my pervious reply in this thread, less experienced healers do care about their dps. With current 1 button spam, they can at least contribute steady dps when they are not healing. You rarely see healers who don't care about dps even at the lower end of fflogs. They want to clear, just as you do. They contribute dps whenever they're not healing. Maybe healing in this game is realy difficult to some people. However, unlike many people here claimed, skill ceiling does exist for healers. By adding more offensive options, you are actually creating a bigger gap between healers. Though the gap itself is fine by me, more available buttons to press does equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players. Less experienced healers do not mean they are all Sylphies.

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I could've worded it better in my reply; what I meant by 'gameplay' in that post was about the healing portion. I shall edit that post in a bit (curse you bedtime brain!).

However, I'm still not convinced the current 1 button spam is considered 'high skill ceiling' considering all you have to do is to reach for that 1 button and mash it until the boss dies or the button breaks. The reason why healer fflogs are difficult is NOT because of the healer's own mechanic/buttons, it's because they are the most reliant to their party's performance. They are typically the last to optimize because they have to rely on their teammate to minimize their mistakes before they can start pumping more... 1 button spam that is Glaroilfisis.

Adding more non-healing buttons won't affect how we heal, or at best it will be mediocre. I repeat; non-healing, it doesn't have to be damage buttons. It appears there are few mistaken that we only want more dps buttons---but no. It's just happens to be one of the easiest options.

I just want more to do beside 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 until next damage happens. Spamming 1 button for 75%+ of encounter is -not- engaging. On the other hand, increasing healing requirement, however tempting it is, will not remedy the situation. If any it will frustrate both side of spectrum more. SE are dead set on keeping the skill floor low (healing requirement) so that healing role is as accessible as possible. I don't see how they will change how busted powerful healers' tools either in the face of encounter design, so it's only natural we look for that 'busy' feeling elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

But I feel like again the point is that it's normal for inexperienced players to struggle with things. After all, they ARE inexperienced. If I pick Black Mage right now, I will struggle a bit with my rotation at first. But, in this game, struggling rarely means failing. They'll struggle, because they are inexperienced, but they'll get experience and....... overcome it. Like any game with progression.

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I agree, but it does not validate the statement of not making the game harder.

The gap between skill floor and skill ceiling is there for all to see. It's not like healers who can heal optimally are contributing the same level of dps. Not to mention those healers who cannot heal optimally. Adding more dps options actually raises skill floor because SQEX will have to lower our overall potencies for the sake of balance.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The skill ceiling on healers are already higher than other roles if you were to take some look at fflogs. By adding more offensive options, you are actually creating a bigger gap between healers. Though the gap itself is fine by me, more available buttons to press does equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players.

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It might be a correlation is not causation case. Although, reviewing it, I am inclined to agree.

I still think dowtime healing gameplay could use some spicing up though. I don't consider myself a great healer player. My DPS parsers usually stay in the grey and I still think we spend too much time casting the same spell over and over. I honestly don't want to optimize my fights much when my reward for doing so is to fit in a few more casts of yet another boring nuke spell, adding to an already huge pile.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Adding more non-healing buttons won't affect how we heal, or at best it will be mediocre. I repeat; non-healing, it doesn't have to be damage buttons. It appears there are few mistaken that we only want more dps buttons---but no. It's just happens to be one of the easiest options.

I just want more to do beside 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 until next damage happens. Spamming 1 button for 75%+ of encounter is -not- engaging. On the other hand, increasing healing requirement, however tempting it is, will not remedy the situation. If any it will frustrate both side of spectrum more. SE are dead set on keeping the skill floor low (healing requirement) so that healing role is as accessible as possible. I don't see how they will change how busted powerful healers' tools either in the face of encounter design, so it's only natural we look for that 'busy' feeling elsewhere.

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I feel you and I agree with you.

The current 1 button spam is not the only reason that leads to the gap between the healers. There are other reasons too. I only mentioned it because of its correlation to the idea for adding more dps options. I, myself, am not even against the idea of adding complex rotations healers. I want healers to be more engaging to play, either by giving us more dps options or by making healing itself more intensive.

I think SQEX should use the stat squish in EW as an opportunity to address these issues for healers. Our current healing potential and encounter design do not match.I think they should take a deeper look on how healing is currently done and create more interactions for healers.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The skill ceiling on healers are already higher than other roles if you were to take some look at fflogs.

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The huge gap in dps between percentiles for healers has always existed, because you have a whole spectrum ranging from "im a heal not a dps" to people who minmax server ticks for hots. Even the biggest skill gap for any job in any other role doesnt come close because its an issue of mentality more than it is skill.

Shadowbringers healer dps pruning changed absolutely nothing in this regard. It brought a lot of discontent for nearly no benefit.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

less experienced healers do care about their dps. With current 1 button spam, they can at least contribute steady dps when they are not healing.

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As it is, healer dps is so incredibly simplistic that the gap you find in fflogs is actually just game fundamentals. Any healer getting green and gray parses is simply not keeping their GCD rolling, or is dying to mechanics. A healer without optimized healing in PF can *easily* get purples or more if they just do their ABCs.

They may not be sylphies as you put it, and they might be trying indeed, but i don't see why ex and Savage content needs to coddle players who don't even have good fundamentals yet. Grey dps usually have 80%-90% gcd uptime because getting any lower means hitting enrage. Meanwhile gray healers gcd uptime can get as low as 60%, sometimes even worse.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

By adding more offensive options, you are actually creating a bigger gap between healers.

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Funnily enough, the old dot-based healer dps design was more forgiving, because the filler gcd was less percentage of our total damage, and you could let dots tick on if you missed GCDs. Missing a single broil is a *lot* more punishing nowadays than it was in Stormblood or heavensward

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

The skill ceiling on healers are already higher than other roles if you were to take some look at fflogs.



Not true. As my pervious reply in this thread, less experienced healers do care about their dps. With current 1 button spam, they can at least contribute steady dps when they are not healing. You rarely see healers who don't care about dps even at the lower end of fflogs. They want to clear, just as you do. They contribute dps whenever they're not healing. Maybe healing in this game is realy difficult to some people. However, unlike many people here claimed, skill ceiling does exist for healers. By adding more offensive options, you are actually creating a bigger gap between healers. Though the gap itself is fine by me, more available buttons to press does equal to making gameplay harder to less experienced players. Less experienced healers do not mean they are all Sylphies.

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Thank you, this is all I have been saying since the beginning. That and that I would prefer not to have more buttons than my bio/broil, but if ONE more button will make everyone freaking happy and at least do more damage that isn't part of some convoluted rotation/opener then fine lets have it.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Well I’m a carrot stick type of player. I guess I’m sorta lazy. I’m not going to do the challenge for challenge sake. Like if a cool glamour I need is in content then I’ll do it, if it’s a upgrade I MUST have sure but otherwise no. And I do care about getting better actually, I practice on the sky sea dummy sometimes as well. Trust me the only thing I care about is letting healer keep it’s non dps identity of a simplistic rotation/opener

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Healers getting more DPS options really shouldn't make a difference to you, just don't put them on your hotbar. If you're not a savage raider then it's not really going to matter, the content is forgiving enough to give you that freedom. Sure you'll be doing less DPS but you're still doing DPS. It's rare that anybody picks on a DPS and says "you're not doing enough damage" or "you've got your rotation all wrong" they just see them doing damage and the mechanics and leave it at that. Especially as it's the kind of things GM's crack down on and for the same reason the devs don't like parsers.

But this way we're both accommodated. I know the devs don't intend to do this, but honestly all we need is the middle ground. You want simplicity, we want variety. There's no reason why we can't have both.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Adding more non-healing buttons won't affect how we heal, or at best it will be mediocre. I repeat; non-healing, it doesn't have to be damage buttons. It appears there are few mistaken that we only want more dps buttons---but no. It's just happens to be one of the easiest options.

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Pretty much. I don't mind it being something else, but all other options would raise the skill floor and would require more work from the devs. This game was designed for healers to contribute DPS and this makes for the easier answer.

But really we could add a crowd control element to the game and give those options to healers, historically healer-y types in FF have had them, healers in other MMO's have had them, SW:TOR benefitted well from crowd control mechanics - even to the point of having builds around them. 2.0 SCH had the foundation of it and BLU benefits from it. They could build on that, in fact one of my suggested SCH set ups following the ShB was to replace our old DPS abilities with exactly that and make them more effective. You could take cues from Saboteur in FFXIII. You could design whole mechanics that take advantage of these.

And there could be more variety in status removal, FFXIV reduced it all to 1 button, but other FF titles have had specific items for specific removals (and in XI, specific spells) - they could make a change where you match the removal spells to the status effect. Like Paralyna for Paralyze, Blindna for Blind and maybe even throw in spells that add resistances like null-paralyze. And then design encounters to throw more of these things out.

I'd actually think these dynamics would be more interesting than DPS complexity, they'd keep us busy and they'd be more role appropriate than DPS. But it'd not just be a job design change here, it'd be more than that as other game design elements would need changes, but I expect it would make things tougher for lower end healers because there'd be a greater necessity to use them.

But nobody could really use the "healers heal" argument because CC means people are taking less damage (and we kinda get this with Holy) and the status resistance/removal is a form of healing.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

The huge gap in dps between percentiles for healers has always existed, because you have a whole spectrum ranging from "im a heal not a dps" to people who minmax server ticks for hots. Even the biggest skill gap for any job in any other role doesnt come close because its an issue of mentality more than it is skill.

Shadowbringers healer dps pruning changed absolutely nothing in this regard. It brought a lot of discontent for nearly no benefit.

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The gap exists for multitude of reasons, I don't believe those are all about mentality issues.

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As it is, healer dps is so incredibly simplistic that the gap you find in fflogs is actually just game fundamentals. Any healer getting green and gray parses is simply not keeping their GCD rolling, or is dying to mechanics. A healer without optimized healing in PF can *easily* get purples or more if they just do their ABCs.

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Healer dps is simplistic because healers have other responsibility. The difficulty itself lies on the balance between your dps and healing. If reaching purple parses is that easy as you said, then any healers with intention to get good, and I believe there are lots of them, should have purple parses already.

I don''t know how you value the skill level of healers, but to me, I will look at both their dps contribution and healing contribution. If one of them is low, they are not top teir healers to me.

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They may not be sylphies as you put it, and they might be trying indeed, but i don't see why ex and Savage content needs to coddle players who don't even have good fundamentals yet. Grey dps usually have 80%-90% gcd uptime because getting any lower means hitting enrage. Meanwhile gray healers gcd uptime can get as low as 60%, sometimes even worse.

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I did not say the game should coddle to poor performing players. I just don't believe adding more dps options rasies no skill floor nor skill ceiling despite my personal preference on this matter.

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Funnily enough, the old dot-based healer dps design was more forgiving, because the filler gcd was less percentage of our total damage, and you could let dots tick on if you missed GCDs. Missing a single broil is a *lot* more punishing nowadays than it was in Stormblood or heavensward

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Is it though? I don't think timer tracking and more button press can mean forgiving. Perhaps when we comapre them mathmetically, older iteration of healers might really be more forgiving. However, that does not mean its more forgiving on player skills.

getting a clear in ex/savage is not skill floor ^^