Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

If you aren't using bloodbath and second wind to cheese aoes in faceroll content, are you even trying?

Just joking, both uses of those abilities are valid, especially if you're a melee maintaining uptime through mechanics.

The difference between second wind, equilibrium and those skills versus clemency is that they simply require a weave slot, not a cast bar and don't really cut down DPS. If anything they are encouraged in some phases of savage content like Diamond Dust in E12S where they could be out of healing range for a moment or to help fill a small HP gap if they make a mistake.

Wheras casting Clemency when it's unnecessary is kind of nutty like a White Mage having to cast Cure II instead of relying on Tetras and lily charges in current content. Casting heals is last priority over oGCDs in the healer meta.

I'm more angry when tanks don't use CDs. If they kept boss focus and stayed above the consistency of wet paper then they did their job. IDC what buttons they push inbetween.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

If you aren't using bloodbath and second wind to cheese aoes in faceroll content, are you even trying?

Just joking, both uses of those abilities are valid, especially if you're a melee maintaining uptime through mechanics.

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I mean, as long as those two skills do balance it out and that AoE you stood in does uniquely amount to greater uptime, rather than just reduced effort in dodging... yeah, use em. As unnecessary as that optimization is 90% of the time in all but Savage content, it's still fun for you and more convenient for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Use it if you want to use it. If the Pld self self heals, the healer can just do more DPS, no?

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Spending a Holy Spirit to get a Glare is not always good value--especially in cases where the cost to the healer is to use Afflatus instead. So you're trading 500+ tank potency for 75 healer potency. Does that actually seem like value to you?

The Paladin self-healing costs damage, so you can't just look at it from the 'healer can spam damage' more angle, you have to include that cost.

This is why Paladin self-healing isn't the same as Warrior self-healing, which does not cost damage, and is therefore all upside.

People complain about paladins using clemency? Why?

If I see my tank using a self heal, I really don't care, I have my own things to worry about and them being able to maintain themselves gives me some time to not worry about them and put more focus on the boss and dps. Mind you this is coming from someone who often "cards and forgets" the tank with Excogitation for the next 45 seconds unless a particularly harsh tank buster is coming up (say the red buster from Paradigm Breach) or they plan to immune through a tank swap attack/eat multiple hits from a mechanic (see Titania Extreme).

If anything I rather enjoy when I can forget that my tank is even there because it removes the potential issue of the dps dying by being stupid/ignorant of an attack because I had to put more focus on the tank than them.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean, as long as those two skills do balance it out and that AoE you stood in does uniquely amount to greater uptime, rather than just reduced effort in dodging... yeah, use em. As unnecessary as that optimization is 90% of the time in all but Savage content, it's still fun for you and more convenient for everyone else.

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Sometimes I pop bloodbath just to see green numbers floating above my head, it's very therapeutic.

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Originally Posted by technole

Main reason you see Clemency from the weird PLD is because they have lifebar anxiety. Healing even the smallest scratches, I saw it the other day in Dalriada. Thankfully I had cleric stance (lost seraph strike) to make up some of their lost damage.

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Yeah but they get lifebar anxiety because green dps will let them die rather than have their back in parties.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Yeah but they get lifebar anxiety because green dps will let them die rather than have their back in parties.

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I eat the floor from the dual tank buster in e12s phase 1 75% of the time due to lack of healing. Yet I do not clemency nor do I expect healers to stop dpsing. A tank player should not clam up after a couple bad experiences.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I eat the floor from the dual tank buster in e12s phase 1 75% of the time due to lack of healing. Yet I do not clemency nor do I expect healers to stop dpsing. A tank player should not clam up after a couple bad experiences.

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So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4d/75...6c1dc2c214.gif

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Originally Posted by Arrius

So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

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Its really only on PLD. DRK you can TBN between hits, WAR has a free self heal, GNB has just a bit more personal mitigation plus regen and small shield. As for the broader issue, well that's just the smell of pug savage raiding.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4d/75...6c1dc2c214.gif

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No, but the idea is supposed to be that the paladin gets value for the healer out of the random 20% damage reduction it just gets for free randomly.

Also Hallowed Ground memes.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Spending a Holy Spirit to get a Glare is not always good value--especially in cases where the cost to the healer is to use Afflatus instead. So you're trading 500+ tank potency for 75 healer potency. Does that actually seem like value to you?

The Paladin self-healing costs damage, so you can't just look at it from the 'healer can spam damage' more angle, you have to include that cost.

This is why Paladin self-healing isn't the same as Warrior self-healing, which does not cost damage, and is therefore all upside.

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My point was outside of endgame raids etc, that level of min-maxing is irrelevant as long as the Pld isn’t spamming. I view it the same way as healer adding dps: As long as they are doing anything to add to the dps pile, fine by me.
A difference of 10 minutes in a dungeon or whatever is a thing and in that case, sure..rotations need to be checked (probably more on the dps members...)

..., but doing fairly well but not optimal will at worst delay by a minute or two. Not that big a deal that it merits some kind of “zomg don’t use clemency”.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Its really only on PLD. DRK you can TBN between hits, WAR has a free self heal, GNB has just a bit more personal mitigation plus regen and small shield. As for the broader issue, well that's just the smell of pug savage raiding.

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Yep, I imagine there are still raid healers out there that still haven't learned from E10S boss that the E12S shared tank buster isn't just a one-button heal if it is not invuln'd.

For those who don't know E12S tank busters, it hits both tanks like the normal mode, but several times, much harder, and it requires a provoke unless it's invuln'd, so the tank don't get hit by the same debuff twice and die. The tanks with one-button heals can soften the consecutive blows. Like if the DRK is using Living Dead on theirs they can just TBN the other tank especially if it's a PLD and make the healers job easier.

Alas this is a good situation where Clemency isn't going to save a PLD alone, it's dependent more on healers doing their job and coordinating with tanks which ones they should heal. PLDs in this fight usually will eat two of the busters with CDs and Hallowed Ground one.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4d/75...6c1dc2c214.gif

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It's a matter of principle. We're talking about 4th floor current savage, there's no "I play however I want" in this context. Either you play well enough to beat the content or you get out.

You could, in theory, Clemency yourself and survive the hit while losing a considerable chunk of DPS instead of just letting the healers do it with one of their several (and much more efficient) skills... but you'd be only setting up your party for failure in the long term. A healer who can't insta-heal between two scripted tank busters while keeping decent DPS will not fare much better in the later stages of the fight and you won't be able to carry their weight forever.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

My point was outside of endgame raids etc, that level of min-maxing is irrelevant as long as the Pld isn’t spamming.

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That's not 'that level of min-maxing.'

It's recognizing that a Holy Spirit is worth more than a Glare.

Honestly, an attitude that some people have in this community is that any level of play beyond 'I queued up' is 'advanced level min-maxing' and that's just not true. Recognizing that a number is higher than another number is a basic part of playing this game, and you're expected to recognize it.

And bear in mind the context--it's when someone is claiming that using Holy Clemency is to free up healer dps--we're already at that context of min-maxing so suddenly going 'harumph well, we don't need to do that level of min-maxing' as a retort is just bad argumentation. If you have 'freeing up healer dps' in mind, then you're in a raid dps mindset and if you're in a raid dps mindset, Holy Spirit > Glare. It's a well meaning idea that doesn't work out.

Only time I ever use it if I'm above 70% health is if I want to trigger the group shield. Otherwise it's an "oh shit" button.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

It's a matter of principle. We're talking about 4th floor current savage, there's no "I play however I want" in this context. Either you play well enough to beat the content or you get out.

You could, in theory, Clemency yourself and survive the hit while losing a considerable chunk of DPS instead of just letting the healers do it with one of their several (and much more efficient) skills... but you'd be only setting up your party for failure in the long term. A healer who can't insta-heal between two scripted tank busters while keeping decent DPS will not fare much better in the later stages of the fight and you won't be able to carry their weight forever.

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Of course. It's easier on savage content to filter out the underperforming ones, where anything else is limited by dungeon matchmaking and the 'luck' of a healer to keep the tank alive.
While I can give them the benefit of a doubt on that when the said party is not doing mechanics properly, letting a tank die to a 'regular' tankbuster or mass pull is the reason the paladin pulls out a clemency.

It didn't happen only once, or twice.

It was enough times where they decided it was safer for them not to rely on the healers too much.

If the healer looks like they could use a hand, I use it. I don't mind doing it; nobody gives a damn about tank DPS in the content I do anyway, and to me it's just making use of my kit.

If the "angry healer" were as good at their own job as they are at paying attention to every GCD the tank is using, I wouldn't have to.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If the healer looks like they could use a hand, I use it. I don't mind doing it; nobody gives a damn about tank DPS in the content I do anyway, and to me it's just making use of my kit.

If the "angry healer" were as good at their own job as they are at paying attention to every GCD the tank is using, I wouldn't have to.

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Tbf part of being a good healer is paying attention to what your party is up to, especially AST.

I just use it to self heal whenever I go under 50%. Never got any complaints, but that really seems like a silly thing to get upset about

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I just use it to self heal whenever I go under 50%. Never got any complaints, but that really seems like a silly thing to get upset about

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It's not really. Most competent healers will also only heal under 50%, so you are effectively not letting the healers even use their off-global heals which would be far more efficient, or making them waste their heals because you already did a heal in the same moment.

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Tbf part of being a good healer is paying attention to what your party is up to, especially AST.

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I'd rather they stay on top of their own role first before they worry about the minutiae of what everyone else is doing.

You know how the flight attendants always tell you to get your own oxygen mask on first before you worry about others? It's basically like that.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'd rather they stay on top of their own role first before they worry about the minutiae of what everyone else is doing.

You know how the flight attendants always tell you to get your own oxygen mask on first before you worry about others? It's basically like that.

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I did say a good healer. So they can do that. They can observe what their party is up to to figure out who to raise first, how to raise them, who to card, and such.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

That's not 'that level of min-maxing.'

It's recognizing that a Holy Spirit is worth more than a Glare.

Honestly, an attitude that some people have in this community is that any level of play beyond 'I queued up' is 'advanced level min-maxing' and that's just not true. Recognizing that a number is higher than another number is a basic part of playing this game, and you're expected to recognize it.

And bear in mind the context--it's when someone is claiming that using Holy Clemency is to free up healer dps--we're already at that context of min-maxing so suddenly going 'harumph well, we don't need to do that level of min-maxing' as a retort is just bad argumentation. If you have 'freeing up healer dps' in mind, then you're in a raid dps mindset and if you're in a raid dps mindset, Holy Spirit > Glare. It's a well meaning idea that doesn't work out.

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The OP topic is about healers getting angry when a PLD uses Clemency. My entire post line has been clearly towards non-end-game use of Clemency, where I have said it just doesn't really matter that X is better than Y when we're not going to be in the instance more than like, 25 minutes. And we're 99% guaranteed to clear it.

Could the PLD put out more DPS doing Holy Spirit? Sure. Not my point. I was simply saying should the PLD decide they want to use Clemency (which I think is fine) the healer has the option of just doing more DPS, or... not?

The content of most of the game just doesn't demand a player be at that level, so it's a disservice to "teach" a new player that they should never use Clemency, or that they should even need to worry about thinking that deeply about it.

I'm of the mind that I see someone interested in playing a Tank, and I want to encourage that without making them feel like they have to do 3D chess about what they should or shouldn't do in casual play. More tanks = faster queues for everyone.

I have nothing to add to endgame raids as I don't do them and you could be entirely right there, but that's not the part of the game I'm talking about.

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I did say a good healer. So they can do that. They can observe what their party is up to to figure out who to raise first, how to raise them, who to card, and such.

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If you're a "good healer" I probably wouldn't be feeling compelled to use Clemency in the first place, nor would you be getting butthurt in the off chance that I did -- so I'm not sure what your angle is here.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you're a "good healer" I probably wouldn't be feeling compelled to use Clemency in the first place nor would you be getting butthurt in the off chance that I did -- so I'm not sure what your angle is here.

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Maybe not you, but I've got PLDs spamming clems at 40% in the past, and it's mostly that extent that drives healers up the wall.

There's even someone claiming to do it at 50% on this very page

The exact percentage of health they do it at honestly isn't as important as the rate their HP is declining versus the rate the healer is restoring it.

But then, good healers would know that already.

The problem with these debates is they always get derailed by a small minority who insist on talking about savage content. A content which 5% of players have cleared. That's like filtering advice about football through the lens of "will it work against Manchester United in the champions league final in front of 90,000 at Wembley?" even though your team mates in Sunday league are overweight and hungover and play around all the dog poo on the local pitch.

We don't need to offer advice to savage players, they should already know by then what to do and it's very organized content where you are quite likely to play with people you already know very well in a static format. Talk to your healers if you're not sure.

Advice is very useful to newer players, playing older/easier content or to players trying out a new role or job. To these players I say if you feel the need to use it, use it. A clear which "wasted a GcD" is far better than a wipe that didn't. you have a tool kit, use it. If your healer has so little empathy in random groups doing random content that they want you to go down to 5% HP before they deal with your health then they can't moan when you take matters into your own hands. Don't spam it, you have healers for a reason but by all means pop it if you feel it's needed. Any healer who gets angry at a tank popping Clemency in Copied Factory really needs to work on their social skills and anger management, frankly.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The exact percentage of health they do it at honestly isn't as important as the rate their HP is declining versus the rate the healer is restoring it.

But then, good healers would know that already.

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How so? How does the rate at which the HP falls matter when I'm specifically saving heals until their health is low enough to make the best use I can of my bene or ED?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

The problem with these debates is they always get derailed by a small minority who insist on talking about savage content. A content which 5% of players have cleared. That's like filtering advice about football through the lens of "will it work against Manchester United in the champions league final in front of 90,000 at Wembley?" even though your team mates in Sunday league are overweight and hungover and play around all the dog poo on the local pitch.

We don't need to offer advice to savage players, they should already know by then what to do and it's very organized content where you are quite likely to play with people you already know very well in a static format. Talk to your healers if you're not sure.

Advice is very useful to newer players, playing older/easier content or to players trying out a new role or job. To these players I say if you feel the need to use it, use it. A clear which "wasted a GcD" is far better than a wipe that didn't. you have a tool kit, use it. If your healer has so little empathy in random groups doing random content that they want you to go down to 5% HP before they deal with your health then they can't moan when you take matters into your own hands. Don't spam it, you have healers for a reason but by all means pop it if you feel it's needed. Any healer who gets angry at a tank popping Clemency in Copied Factory really needs to work on their social skills and anger management, frankly.

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Savage/Ultimate skill balance is the only balance that matters. Other content is irrelevant. Clemency is largely worthless here, ere go it either needs a rework or change. Also savage has way more than 5% participation.

And really, if DF tanks truly have so little faith in their healer, it's better to use an invuln before clemency. Most of the tanks I've seen popping clemency have never heard of hallowed ground.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Savage/Ultimate skill balance is the only balance that matters. Other content is irrelevant. Clemency is largely worthless here, ere go it either needs a rework or change. Also savage has way more than 5% participation.

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Savage has a 5% CLEAR rate on NA servers. Balance matters in all content, right from Sastasha. Not sure why you're talking about balance though, it's not part of my post at all.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Savage has a 5% CLEAR rate on NA servers. Balance matters in all content, right from Sastasha. Not sure why you're talking about balance though, it's not part of my post at all.

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Data please.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

How so? How does the rate at which the HP falls matter when I'm specifically saving heals until their health is low enough to make the best use I can of my bene or ED?

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In most cases, you can go by % because the rate of decline is slow, but they are right that rate matters.

If the rate of decline is sharp, like 33% per second, there is a high chance that some healers won't react that fast. If they have already exhausted their off-globals and you have exhausted a lot of mitigation, there could be a very tight window for the healer to save you.

It's rare, but a recent example is the final dungeon of 5.0, where you can pull everything before the last boss, exhaust your heaviest mitigation while the healer uses up their entire kit and you can still be quite low and declining fast. And if your party doesn't know what AoE is, it really doesn't help. The first dungeon of shadowbringers can be rough as well because healers don't have their post-70 kit like Seraph on scholar.

The way I would help a healer out in these situations is to take a few steps back from the enemies. They will take about 3 seconds to move to me and resume their auto-attacks, but that pauses the incoming damage from non-casters for 3 seconds, which helps the healer a lot and prevents the need for clemency.

Not everyone is quite so adept, so clemency does make sense in those situations.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

And really, if DF tanks truly have so little faith in their healer, it's better to use an invuln before clemency. Most of the tanks I've seen popping clemency have never heard of hallowed ground.

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Hallowed Ground is best used as a regular cooldown, because you can get 3-4 uses out of it per dungeon run that way. Hallowed Ground isn't what makes a paladin overpowered, Clemency is.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

"You know you dont need to heal me, i got it"
"Why are you healing him just do your own stuff"

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For the first statement i would reply "ok !" for the second i would politely ask him/her to keep his/her opinion to him/herself and to be more reactive next time.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Data please.

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This was by February, it will be higher now
https://i.imgur.com/TgTRFSs.png

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Data please.

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I got that figure from a thread a few weeks ago which showed the official clear numbers. I think the thread might have been nuked as I can't find it now. The best I can find with a quick google search is thel Alexander savage clear rates. 5% was generous.

https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luckyban...9/497c8f0c.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In most cases, you can go by % because the rate of decline is slow, but they are right that rate matters.

If the rate of decline is sharp, like 33% per second, there is a high chance that some healers won't react that fast. If they have already exhausted their off-globals and you have exhausted a lot of mitigation, there could be a very tight window for the healer to save you.

It's rare, but a recent example is the final dungeon of 5.0, where you can pull everything before the last boss, exhaust your heaviest mitigation while the healer uses up their entire kit and you can still be quite low and declining fast. And if your party doesn't know what AoE is, it really doesn't help. The first dungeon of shadowbringers can be rough as well because healers don't have their post-70 kit like Seraph on scholar.

The way I would help a healer out in these situations is to take a few steps back from the enemies. They will take about 3 seconds to move to me and resume their auto-attacks, but that pauses the incoming damage from non-casters for 3 seconds, which helps the healer a lot and prevents the need for clemency.

Not everyone is quite so adept, so clemency does make sense in those situations.

Hallowed Ground is best used as a regular cooldown, because you can get 3-4 uses out of it per dungeon run that way. Hallowed Ground isn't what makes a paladin overpowered, Clemency is.

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While I agree with everything, somehow I doubt a PLD who clemencies at 40% would think about using HG as a regular CD.

Clemency's uses are very niche, that's just how it is, so I don't really understand the jabs the person I was replying to was making towards healers rather than clem uses.

Alexander rates from 2017 and current rates are not comparable. Cross-world party finder only came out during the final tier of Alexander, which made a massive difference to savage accessibility.

There are differences in the level of interest in savage even within regions and even between different worlds, so not all of NA is the same.