Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

"allegedly"

the fact they have a screenshot for that is a bit suspicious, no?

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What even is this take.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Lack of actual long term, goal driven content.

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I'm going to push back against this one a little, because there is a whole lot of long term, goal driving content - it's just not necessarily battle content. Fishing alone is a mini game that could suffice as a whole stand alone game in itself. Gathering and crafting have a whole chunk of achievements that take hundreds of hours to reach. There are people who make it a point to collect all the sight seeing logs. There are people who found their happy place doing Gold Saucer mini games nonstop. (There are even people that enjoy chocobo racing, apparently, and I consider that the weakest mini game of the whole meta game.)

Sure, battle content is a slightly fancier treadmill with each expansion, but even that can be converted into long term goals if you're determined enough. I'm almost done with all of the original relic weapons, almost done with all of the anima weapons, and I'm about to plunge back into the hell of Eureka for those to boot.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

What even is this take.

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How do they know that was why they were reported? Who takes screens hots of the party finders they put up?

I don't believe they got suspended for the message in the screenshot in the slightest.

Oh, and the post in question was removed for misleading or false information so....

The biggest thing is NN. It is a toxic cesspool of idiocy where Mentors go to jerk themselves off and mediocre trolls make their lair. The best thing they can do with it is to just get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

The biggest thing is NN. It is a toxic cesspool of idiocy where Mentors go to jerk themselves off and mediocre trolls make their lair. The best thing they can do with it is to just get rid of it.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/ECCEjxHQb2Qo/giphy.gif

Judging by your attitude, the NN isn't the problem.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

How do they know that was why they were reported? Who takes screens hots of the party finders they put up?

I don't believe they got suspended for the message in the screenshot in the slightest.

Oh, and the post in question was removed for misleading or false information so....

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Eh? You can see their entire discussion with the support staff, the person is pretty clear that they didn't have an actual screenshot of the actual PF since, to them "who would report /that/" and GM's don't provide it, but if you've only put up 1 or 2 within a month period it doesn't take a genius to figure out which one sparked the trouble. And people I generally trust know the person, and saw the PF they put up in the private tab when they, themselves, were joining their own group's.

People've gotten in trouble for less, the point still stands regardless.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

I'll say it's not so much a boogeyman when someone received a permanent strike on their account for listing a Party Finder with: "Snape kills Legolas in John Wick 4". There's a lot of innocuous things that receive GM actions, and trying to provide advice can be one of those things purely based on the tone someone else read it in. It's not consistent moderation, it's not clear moderation and it does impact the community of the game to where, if, someone genuinely wants to receive critique/advice a lot of people will only provide it over a third party platform just due to the chance of there being a risk at all.

And while, sure, providing advice to someone who didn't ask is considered rude within this community, at the same time making a suggestion in order to increase the efficacy of a party has always been a component to MMO sociability. And someone bluntly offering advice isn't really, to me at all, something that should get someone a permanent strike. Maybe a "remember, you can blacklist people you don't like" statement and then left alone.

But just because I haven't personally been affected by something like this, doesn't mean it doesn't happen and doesn't mean it hasn't impacted player to player interactions.

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That's all very flimsy and you must know that. I don't know what PF listings have to do with it, but the one you listed is just spam or improperly using the PF, so if it's reported and a GM thinks it's violating a rule, then that's par for the course. Assuming it's even true, of course.

Just because someone is upset that someone said something to them, that doesn't mean the person will be punished. I have never in my life encountered someone wanting advice given on a third-party platform. I even had someone ask me after an alliance raid when we were both SAMs about a specific thing I was doing, and we briefly chatted about rotations and efficiency before they thanked me and left. Miraculously, neither of us got in trouble.

Since we're using unrelated examples, I get in arguments sometimes and have never received a strike at all. Again, miraculously, nothing bad happened. No one I know has gotten in trouble for just speaking. You're all just perpetuating this belief that talking gets you in trouble so much that people who've never even been in trouble start to believe it.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

https://media.giphy.com/media/ECCEjxHQb2Qo/giphy.gif

Judging by your attitude, the NN isn't the problem.

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My attitude has nothing to with how terrible NN is. Sorry I don't sugar coat it for you but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Or you have a skewed version of what is not ‘massively’ underperforming? Sure it is DF but expecting general competence is not asking for much though that is the problem this community has differing views of what is general competence which often leads to colorfully discussions in NN.

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Competence is the ability to do something successfully. If you can reliably clear content on DF with any random party, then you are competent at least for Normal contents in the game.

So to underperform for any given content would be to perform at such a level that would prevent you from clearing the content, thus making you incompetent for that particular content until you improve your performance.

The thing is, as a party-based content, unless there are mechanics that test individual performance, then it is the party's performance as a group that matters more.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Competence is the ability to do something successfully. If you can reliably clear content on DF with any random party, then you are competent at least for Normal contents in the game.

So to underperform for any given content would be to perform at such a level that would prevent you from clearing the content, thus making you incompetent for that particular content until you improve your performance.

The thing is, as a party-based content, unless there are mechanics that test individual performance, then it is the party's performance as a group that matters more.

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Competence is to do something successfully or efficiently. Which ever what one prioritizes depends on the person. Some may just go based off completion and others may go based off efficiency.

It really depends on the person for some group performance is all that matters but for others the desire of having everyone carry their own weight is important.

Completion in itself may be enough for you but it may not be the case for others. So it is not a one size fits all standard. Sure some may be fine with a full party of gray's and others may have a higher standard.

It's the same song and dance in every mmo I played. There are always people complaining about lesser skilled players daring to be in their presence, and for some reason their experiences in the game with those players appear to be significantly more frequent and worse than most people. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Competence is to do something successfully or efficiently. Which ever what one prioritizes depends on the person. Some may just go based off completion and others may go based off efficiency.

It really depends on the person for some group performance is all that matters but for others the desire of having everyone carry their own weight is important.

Completion in itself may be enough for you but it may not be the case for others. So it is not a one size fits all standard. Sure some may be fine with a full party of gray's and others may have a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's the same song and dance in every mmo I played. There are always people complaining about lesser skilled players daring to be in their presence, and for some reason their experiences in the game with those players appear to be significantly more frequent and worse than most people. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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Oddly enough when I started to play I had friends tell me not to use ACT cause it would be terrifying how bad people are in this game. For the longest I thought it was an exaggeration. Sadly it it was not, so I do not doubt the frequency but I think it more so comes down to varying degrees of patience and expectations.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Competence is to do something successfully or efficiently. Which ever what one prioritizes depends on the person. Some may just go based off completion and others may go based off efficiency.

It really depends on the person for some group performance is all that matters but for others the desire of having everyone carry their own weight is important.

Completion in itself may be enough for you but it may not be the case for others. So it is not a one size fits all standard. Sure some may be fine with a full party of gray's and others may have a higher standard.

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If someone is basing it on efficiency, then it's a moot point for DF, which is never going to be as efficient as PF. Telling someone they're underperforming based on a "not one size fits all" standard is also useless.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If someone is basing it on efficiency, then it's a moot point for DF, which is never going to be as efficient as PF. Telling someone they're underperforming based on a "not one size fits all" standard is also useless.

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I never said telling someone they are under performing based on a one size fits all standard. Everyone has their own standard. For some it may be completing the fight for others it is being able to execute a basic rotation, for another it may be not letting your tank die due to being dps happy, for others it may not letting the co healer do all of the healing.

What I am saying everyone has their own standard and will enforce it as they see fit. I have my standards and I probably kick more people from DF because of it. Sure in practice waiting those five min to kick someone is not effencit but for me it is an effencit use of my time in terms of maximizing my own enjoyment.

The reality is as many said this is an online game with many different types of players and different standards and play styles. I may not agree with others views and that is okay. I will keep on using the tools in the game to do what I can to maximize my own fun even if it as the expense of another's.

Also let us be real most the stuff that is talked about on the forums is useless.

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Originally Posted by Awha

What I am saying everyone has their own standard and will enforce it as they see fit.

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Well, too bad for the OP, I guess. But agreed, outside of violating the ToS, we are responsible for our own enjoyment in the game and can't always expect others to cater to us.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It's the same song and dance in every mmo I played. There are always people complaining about lesser skilled players daring to be in their presence, and for some reason their experiences in the game with those players appear to be significantly more frequent and worse than most people. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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If only you knew how bad it actually is.

I'd say the majority of players in this game are underperforming on the regular. It's just that the majority of content, until you get to extremes or high end duties, can be completed anyway, for the most part. Mechanics that require some actual thinking are usually where you find the most party wipes.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'd say the majority of players in this game are underperforming on the regular. It's just that the majority of content, until you get to extremes or high end duties, can be completed anyway, for the most part. Mechanics that require some actual thinking are usually where you find the most party wipes.

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"majority of players...underperforming on the regular"

"majority of content...can be completed anyway"

To me, when you compare and contrast these two statements, it just becomes a meaningless metric if we want to insist on using "underperforming" in this context.

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Originally Posted by linayar

"majority of players...underperforming on the regular"

"majority of content...can be completed anyway"

To me, when you compare and contrast these two statements, it just becomes a meaningless metric if we want to insist on using "underperforming" in this context.

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I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset more properly - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

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Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

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I'd appreciate if players respected each other's time. By performing 'well', everyone benefits. We could complete a dungeon in an hour, but is that really something to strive for?

For example, in school I could pass a class with a D (And I did), but is that well and good, or do teachers insist you "perform" better? Is a "D" not frowned upon?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'd appreciate if players respected each other's time. By performing 'well', everyone benefits. We could complete a dungeon in an hour, but is that really something to strive for?

For example, in school I could pass a class with a D (And I did), but is that well and good, or do teachers insist you "perform" better? Is a "D" not frowned upon?

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"D" is not frowned upon if all you want is to get a high school diploma. If you want to get accepted to a good college, then "D" would not be enough.

But that's different than playing FFXIV because there are no teachers trying to get you to do the harder content. In fact, it's the opposite, people don't care about you once they leave the party. If you are trying to do content where people are being picky about who gets to be included, then just like getting into a good college, there is a competitive scene where you can be "underperforming" even when you can clear the content. But in a content where you are just randomly grouped, that's largely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by linayar

"D" is not frowned upon if all you want is to get a high school diploma. If you want to get accepted to a good college, then "D" would not be enough.

But that's different than playing FFXIV because there are no teachers trying to get you to do the harder content. In fact, it's the opposite, people don't care about you once they leave the party. If you are trying to do content where people are being picky about who gets to be included, then just like getting into a good college, there is a competitive scene where you can be "underperforming" even when you can clear the content. But in a content where you are just randomly grouped, that's largely irrelevant.

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The real difference is in FFXIV is since this game is group based a player doesn't even have to be performing "passably", many players are regularly carried through content, they can literally be AFK (!), at the expense of other player's time. Just because they cannot be bothered. It's not difficult to use a combo (it lights up!), it's not difficult to use AoE - there is a reason these skills are included as a part of a player's skillset, they cannot be bothered to move out of mechanics - a healer will just raise them.. THAT'S the real problem, and the point of many arguments here in this thread is the FFXIV community - in general - enables this sort of play and behavior, instead of encouraging players to do better.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The real difference is in FFXIV is since this game is group based a player doesn't even have to be performing "passably", many players are regularly carried through content, they can literally be AFK (!), at the expense of other player's time. Just because they cannot be bothered. It's not difficult to use a combo (it lights up!), it's not difficult to use AoE - there is a reason these skills are included as a part of a player's skillset, they cannot be bothered to move out of mechanics - a healer will just raise them.. THAT'S the real problem, and the point of many arguments here in this thread is the FFXIV community - in general - enables this sort of play and behavior, instead of encouraging players to do better.

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Hey, I said earlier that people should encourage others to do better, and one response that I got is that they'd rather kick if other players aren't already ready to be good when entering the duty.

So, yeah, maybe the community is to blame, but like you said, people can be carried through content, so that is where the game decides the minimum performance the party needs.

On more difficult content where the group will fail without better performance, that's where the community needs to help each other if they want to improve the overall experience of pugging. Or stick to whatever they're doing now and just let everything stays the same.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I tell all the new players to the game that I know to NEVER JOIN THE NOVICE NETWORK. It's useless and full of trolling and toxic players.

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This clearly depends on the server and/or data center you are on. Twintania's NN has been pretty good during all my playtimes. It had its share of trash topics or "endless" mentor arguments about endgame performance and what not, but ususally all questions were answered, in english, german or french if necessary.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset more properly - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

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Except whether you were asleep at the wheel the whole time or going full Sweaty, the reward is still the same: you completed the duty, maybe got loot, some tomes, etc.

You can rant and rave about "performing well" in a dungeon or something all you want, but past a certain point it's just wasted energy. Why tire out my already crappy joints just so I can "perform well"? It doesn't even mean you'll get more commendations. You don't need to play at Savage/Ultimate level in standard content. You can, but you don't need to, most people don't expect you to, and it has very little impact.

You should be more worked up about people getting hard carried through Ultimate and waving around weapons and titles, but for some reason you seem more interested in 'casual' content performance. Hm.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Except whether you were asleep at the wheel the whole time or going full Sweaty, the reward is still the same: you completed the duty, maybe got loot, some tomes, etc.

You can rant and rave about "performing well" in a dungeon or something all you want, but past a certain point it's just wasted energy. Why tire out my already crappy joints just so I can "perform well"? It doesn't even mean you'll get more commendations. You don't need to play at Savage/Ultimate level in standard content. You can, but you don't need to, most people don't expect you to, and it has very little impact.

You should be more worked up about people getting hard carried through Ultimate and waving around weapons and titles, but for some reason you seem more interested in 'casual' content performance. Hm.

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Odd. I would have thought you would agree with my takes on this subject, considering this quote from the TfDF thread. Perhaps I read it wrong?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

It's not the only time they died, they were terrible, and it's not being "harsh" to expect people to know how to play, especially in casual content. It's not hard. If they've done it that many times, they should be able to do the mechanics in their sleep by now. If they're too burnt out or "zoning out", maybe they should go do something else and stop slowing the rest of us down.

I don't know about you, but I'm very familiar with people lazily doing content because they know they'll get carried through it. This was one of those times. You don't know the whole story, so save your "judging by"s for someone else. Just because I was recalling a story from a few days ago and didn't give you every single detail so you could make a judgment call on whether I'm being a big meanie or not, that doesn't mean that's all that happened. This person isn't on trial, I'm just telling a story. Funny that people always come out to defend bad and lazy players.

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Anyway, I couldn't care less about people showing off high end titles or weapons. I don't even know what the titles are or what the weapons look like. For that matter, I don't do high end content - not even extremes. I haven't even done an extreme since Hades. Not that I see the relevance here.

It's not like it is difficult for a player to play "well, rather "passably", all it takes is them pressing a key in a different order, and if they are really having trouble... combos even light up!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Odd. I would have thought you would agree with my takes on this subject, considering this quote from the TfDF thread. Perhaps I read it wrong?

Anyway, I couldn't care less about people showing off high end titles or weapons. I don't even know what the titles are or what the weapons look like. For that matter, I don't do high end content - not even extremes. I haven't even done an extreme since Hades. Not that I see the relevance here.

It's not like it is difficult for a player to play "well, rather "passably", all it takes is them pressing a key in a different order, and if they are really having trouble... combos even light up!

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Boy, I just live rent-free in your head, huh? That was over two months ago, and the thread long moved on. I'm not going to continue an argument you plucked out and stitched into this thread, and you know that there's more to playing than AFK and pretending Rabanastre is an Ultimate-tier duty.

So if you don't even do EX content, who are you to bark on and on about how other players aren't performing well? What do you know besides how to play decently in 'casual' content? How bizarre.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Boy, I just live rent-free in your head, huh? That was over two months ago, and the thread long moved on. I'm not going to continue an argument you plucked out and stitched into this thread, and you know that there's more to playing than AFK and pretending Rabanastre is an Ultimate-tier duty.

So if you don't even do EX content, who are you to bark on and on about how other players aren't performing well? What do you know besides how to play decently in 'casual' content? How bizarre.

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Are the points made in that post not relevant to the current conversation? You seem to have experience with the very same type of players I have been referring to!

I'm sorry, are you trying to shame me because I don't do high end PvE content? If so that is laughable. If you really want to know why I don't do extremes anymore, it's because I got tired of pugging them, and wasting tens of hours trying and failing to progress, and even when I did, it's a well known meme that "farm" parties are "trap" parties. Quite simply, it's a waste of time. For that matter, I don't have to do savage or ultimate content to figure out how to perform my rotation adequately, or to use an AoE skill. This is literally the whole point.

Oh, I should add! I barely even do normal content! I've not completed the new raid series, nor did I ever complete the Eden series! My gear is completely out of date! ;)

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Are the points made in that post not relevant to the current conversation? You seem to have experience with the very same type of players I have been referring to!

I'm sorry, are you trying to shame me because I don't do high end PvE content? If so that is laughable. If you really want to know why I don't do extremes anymore, it's because I got tired of pugging them, and wasting tens of hours trying and failing to progress, and even when I did, it's a well known meme that "farm" parties are "trap" parties. Quite simply, it's a waste of time. For that matter, I don't have to do savage or ultimate content to figure out how to perform my rotation adequately, or to use an AoE skill. This is literally the whole point.

Oh, I should add! I barely even do normal content! I've not completed the new raid series, nor did I ever complete the Eden series! My gear is completely out of date! ;)

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I think you're projecting far too much to even waste my time talking to you. Questioning your qualifications and experience is not shaming, unless you perceive everyone that disagrees with you as attacking you. Clearly others figured out earlier that you're just looking for a fight to simultaneously win and lose, and that's why they stopped bothering. Sorry you're a victim in this game because you're so good and everyone else is so bad. Perhaps you want to play a different game? A singleplayer one, perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I think you're projecting far too much to even waste my time talking to you. Questioning your qualifications and experience is not shaming, unless you perceive everyone that disagrees with you as attacking you. Clearly others figured out earlier that you're just looking for a fight to simultaneously win and lose, and that's why they stopped bothering. Sorry you're a victim in this game because you're so good and everyone else is so bad. Perhaps you want to play a different game? A singleplayer one, perhaps?

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Oh, I'm projecting? :rolleyes:

So, are you trying to say that players who do not complete high end PvE content cannot have an opinion on general content on this game? If so, that is concerning, it comes off as quite elitist, but that's just my opinion on that particular view.

No, I am usually the one who stops posting in response actually, and you responded to me initially. I just thought it was odd, your take on the subject, when I recalled an argument in the DF thread (which I was not a part of), that I thought was clearly contrary to what was posted here!

I'm sorry, but my original argument wasn't about how good or bad I or other players are. It was about players - in general - respecting each other's time and putting in an adequate amount of "effort", specifically using AoE skills, combos, and not being AFK, as to not be a burden on another player's experience. I was never referring to ultimate, or savage level play. This thread expands on that idea, referring to how the community - in general - enables, and defends the sort of players who are a burden on others and do not respect another's time.

Thanks for the concern! I have been playing single-player games! Quite a few of them recently! I could recommend some for you, depending on your tastes! I quite like PvP games too, so if you are into that kind of thing, I could recommend those as well!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Oh, I'm projecting? :rolleyes:

So, are you trying to say that players who do not complete high end PvE content cannot have an opinion on general content on this game? If so, that is concerning, it comes off as quite elitist, but that's just my opinion on that particular view.

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Yep, projecting. Bye. Fight by yourself.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Oddly enough when I started to play I had friends tell me not to use ACT cause it would be terrifying how bad people are in this game. For the longest I thought it was an exaggeration. Sadly it it was not, so I do not doubt the frequency but I think it more so comes down to varying degrees of patience and expectations.

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This was exactly when my expectation watered down. I will rant, vent, and judge internally---nothing will change. But that's all about I can do aside from taking the "take it or leave it."-stance. At least the game is still enjoyable in many aspects. :)

These days, I tend to just ask around for what the HP milestones on each extreme/savage fight are so I know sooner then later whether or not a PF group is worth sticking with.

It's just a pity there isn't any way for people to actually know if they're underperforming short of someone calling them out on it using ACT or some other third party program.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's just a pity there isn't any way for people to actually know if they're underperforming short of someone calling them out on it using ACT or some other third party program.

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Devs: We want you to relax and not worry about your performance, so we've hidden, banned and taken away most tools to evaluate that so you can have fun!

Also Devs: Oh btw, your parties have full right to silently boot you for performance at any time and endgame bosses will enrage and wipe your entire team if you aren't good enough so you'll never beat them and it'll be all your fault. Enjoy!

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Yep, projecting. Bye. Fight by yourself.

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lmao, imagine invalidating your own argument with a prior post, insulting someone when they link it and then running away from the argument YOU started

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

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uhhh okey? *insert awkward meme*

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

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It depends on the person, sure the game may not reward you but it is a team game people should respect the time of others in the group by having a basic understand how to play their role. I have been in group where as a tank I have d/out damaged a SAM. Sure we cleared the content but objectively they failed their role as a damage dealer. Just like if a tank cannot hold aggro or a healer that does heal objectively fails at their role.

Or are we going to say that irrelevant cause they content was cleared? Also I have cleared content with tanks that refuse to hold aggro is it really safe to say they were competent players / did not under perform.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

lmao, imagine invalidating your own argument with a prior post, insulting someone when they link it and then running away from the argument YOU started

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The Doozer classic.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

lmao, imagine invalidating your own argument with a prior post, insulting someone when they link it and then running away from the argument YOU started

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That's pretty much his typical MO.

That and victim blaming people to preserve his worldview. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯