General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

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Originally Posted by GucciSan

I don’t think they would since the game and playerbase are so DPS centric it would be the only healer anyone would ever want. Everyone would want it for everything from dungeons PUGs to statics; why take any other healer when this one could get the clear faster than the rest since its whole kit is (theoretically) focused on damage?

They could go the other route and balance their output to be slightly higher than the other healers for balance but then people would rightfully complain about the low payoff for their efforts; why play this healer when you get the same amount of damage the others get from hitting one button?

It just seems like too much of a balancing nightmare for them to consider it.

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Ironically this is one area of healing that homogenization might help them, or at least help some of them. Of course there still needs to be some balance.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

While a support GCD isnt a terrible idea, it does nothing for solo quests and instances.

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Nothing needs to be done for solo quests (I level as WHM, so yeah I do know what I am talking about) and why wouldn't group support work in 4 man groups?
AST Cards work there too and are a nice change of pace.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Nothing needs to be done for solo quests (I level as WHM, so yeah I do know what I am talking about) and why wouldn't group support work in 4 man groups?
AST Cards work there too and are a nice change of pace.

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Agreed.

All of the buff / debuff abilities need to be taken from the DPS and given to healers.

Imagine if instead of trying to balance around regen / shield based healers they could balance around buff / debuff based healers. Next expansion: 2 buff based healers, 2 debuff based healers.

And the reason I can justify asking for the utility to be removed from DPS:

The amount of times I've actually seen them use it has been minimal. Look, if SE wants healers to focus less on DPS they HAVE to give us something to do during the downtime. And if it's not going to be DPS, as a healer I want to be support.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And the reason I can justify asking for the utility to be removed from DPS:

The amount of times I've actually seen them use it has been minimal. Look, if SE wants healers to focus less on DPS they HAVE to give us something to do during the downtime. And if it's not going to be DPS, as a healer I want to be support.

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Why do you think they took away most DPS tools from healers? The amount of times they've actually use it is minimal. They've squandered it, so SE took it away.

(this is how ridiculous taking support from DPS sounds. you don't balance classes having in mind the worst players. that's how they currently ruined healers).

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Another example is if you've ever been dead against a boss that has ample HP left only to watch your team clear it anyway despite no heals from you because you're Ko'd.

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That's pretty normal for content you outgear to triviality.
Sadly, that is the case with dungeons even if they are brand new, because they tune them to very old gear.
If you run them with the minimal item level setting, you will notice that creatures hit a bit harder.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That's pretty normal for content you outgear to triviality.
Sadly, that is the case with dungeons even if they are brand new, because they tune them to very old gear.
If you run them with the minimal item level setting, you will notice that creatures hit a bit harder.

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I'm certian the tuning was so that newer players can catch up to the raiders, as the current dungeon gear is around the mininum ilevel for Eden's Verse. which means as long as players have got the capped tome or raid gear, then they are gonna out gear, I'm also certain that this has been consistent though the game's lifecycle, which had....interesting effects on places like Prae, LOTA or ST

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That's pretty normal for content you outgear to triviality.
Sadly, that is the case with dungeons even if they are brand new, because they tune them to very old gear.
If you run them with the minimal item level setting, you will notice that creatures hit a bit harder.

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This can happen in any dungeon where the boss spends the majority of his time casting abilities that can be avoided. I can think of instances as early as Coincounter in Aurum Vale, to as recent as the Grid boss in Mt. Gulg. Even E7N requires very little healing despite having the standard Tank Buster, Raid Buster, and split damage markers, and that's 8-man content, so the excuses end right there.

Tuning dungeons to a lower ilv isn't really the reason, but contributes to it. All this really does is give the group more sustainability through defensive and offensive power against large numbers of trash mobs that are auto attacking the tank like there is no tomorrow. I am well aware of how "normal" it is, and actually dungeon bosses in general can be cleared without much healing. What this does is exemplifies what I'm talking about, because the issue with healers in just about all content (I'll exclude 24-man) is it requires the least amount of demand from them compared to the other roles. Yes, they indeed do need flexibility during encounters; more so than the other two roles, but current encounter design doesn't warrant the lack of demand the game requires from healers.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Look, if SE wants healers to focus less on DPS they HAVE to give us something to do during the downtime. And if it's not going to be DPS, as a healer I want to be support.

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No, The answer is to remove the downtime. While i wont say no to a more support oriented Healer, I want Healing to be engaging throughout the fight rather than something that sometimes gets cast between the Malefic spams.

Constant damage pressure to the team is the answer. Give me damage to heal through the entire encounter, not just in blocks during specific mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I'm also certain that this has been consistent though the game's lifecycle

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Correct. They mainly use later dungeons and 24mans for catch-up purposes. Hence the low difficulty.

Imho, that is lame design. You should not cater the majority of the non raiding content to returning folks.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

No, The answer is to remove the downtime. While i wont say no to a more support oriented Healer, I want Healing to be engaging throughout the fight rather than something that sometimes gets cast between the Malefic spams.

Constant damage pressure to the team is the answer. Give me damage to heal through the entire encounter, not just in blocks during specific mechanics.

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To be perfectly frank: I don't think constant pressure would feel much different, I come from WoW, where healing is (was? been a few years) designed more as a full time occupation. It can be fun, it can be intense (esp at lower item level when every extra heal puts you in conflict with your mana) but in easier content it feels no different than damage spam. Whether I mash the Cure II button or the Glare button is pretty irrelevant to me.

Content needs to engage and that only works with mechanics that require you to think and react. You could design a boss with mad pulsing AoE, so the healer would be healing like there is no tomorrow to compensate for it but it would not be more engaging or fun than designing the boss w/o the pulse and let the healer DPS between the spikes.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

To be perfectly frank: I don't think constant pressure would feel much different, I come from WoW, where healing is (was? been a few years) designed more as a full time occupation. It can be fun, it can be intense (esp at lower item level when every extra heal puts you in conflict with your mana) but in easier content it feels no different than damage spam. Whether I mash the Cure II button or the Glare button is pretty irrelevant to me.

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I agree. That's why I am in favor of mixing things up with healer design. You heal, you dps and you support (I varying degrees). AST is the busiest and most interesting healer because you balance these three acts during your gameplay. You might argue the support part of their kit needs some reviewing to regain some of its depth, but it doesn't change the fact that AST's skill set allows you to constantly be on your toes regarding your contribution to the party.

Considering how boring and basic healing and dpsing effects are in this game (No synergy, single target flat heal or damage, heal or damage over time and point blank aoe damage or healing.) with a few interesting exceptions that happen once every minute or so (Excogitation, Earthly star, Asylum, Assize, Sacred Soil etc.), expanding on each job's secondary identity (SCH as a debuffer, WHM as a Heal/Damage weaver nuker and AST as a buffer.) could be a potential way to differentiate the jobs without hindering their healing capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

To be perfectly frank: I don't think constant pressure would feel much different, I come from WoW, where healing is (was? been a few years) designed more as a full time occupation. It can be fun, it can be intense (esp at lower item level when every extra heal puts you in conflict with your mana) but in easier content it feels no different than damage spam. Whether I mash the Cure II button or the Glare button is pretty irrelevant to me.

Content needs to engage and that only works with mechanics that require you to think and react. You could design a boss with mad pulsing AoE, so the healer would be healing like there is no tomorrow to compensate for it but it would not be more engaging or fun than designing the boss w/o the pulse and let the healer DPS between the spikes.

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Current WoW is just spammy. If you played during BC as a Healer, Healing was about placing the right heal on the right person with an eye towards not overhealing (Massive threat gen you couldnt dump) and mana use, since MP restoration was very limited.

We have an incredibly diverse healing kit that would allow us to pretty dynamically react to incoming damage at a more constant rate. IMO, Lucid having a 2 - 3 minute cooldown would bring value back to cheaper heals like Cure and its attendant Trait along with putting more value in Regens on anything not called a Tank.

What does it matter if I'm pressing Cure vs Glare? It doesn't, except the former is the Role i signed up for and the latter is because I'm bloody bored waiting for the next polite request from the boss to press a Heal.
I want to feel like a Healer, not a Red Mage that forgot how to cast Black spells.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

To be perfectly frank: I don't think constant pressure would feel much different, I come from WoW, where healing is (was? been a few years) designed more as a full time occupation. It can be fun, it can be intense (esp at lower item level when every extra heal puts you in conflict with your mana) but in easier content it feels no different than damage spam. Whether I mash the Cure II button or the Glare button is pretty irrelevant to me.

Content needs to engage and that only works with mechanics that require you to think and react. You could design a boss with mad pulsing AoE, so the healer would be healing like there is no tomorrow to compensate for it but it would not be more engaging or fun than designing the boss w/o the pulse and let the healer DPS between the spikes.

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Closest experience I can use is FFXI around the time that ToAU was released and TP burn parties became more commonplace. I remember being in exp parties and literally doing nothing but spamming Cure spells. It's experiences like those that has me try to let healers know that they don't have it that bad, and you're right; it really isn't any more engaging.

However, I will say that I do feel engaged when my heals are pushed. And by pushed, I mean I have to use my GCDs on them. This alone brings several more factors into play. An example of this is when a player is at critical HP with an incoming attack that will finish them off if they are not healed, and you have no ogcds in the chamber. That attack is going to go off in 3.24 seconds, which means your window to start casting is extremely small. Basically, if you focused on DPSing at all, that player is dead and the penalty is a cost to the group's MP whether the raise comes from a healer or DPS job capable of raising. Not to mention the insane drop off of rDPS every second they are down.

It's easy to say that healing is akin to a game of whack-a-mole with all the ogcd heals healers have at their disposal. Someone needs a heal, push a button and done. That is not engaging in even the slightest. "Increasing mobility" is an adjustment that directly affects DPS output, and this mindset is indicative of where it is placed with the devs: Damage. The way I see it is the healer role design is in direct contrast with encounter design; placing them in a limbo that is not deserved.

It is just crazy to me that everything and anything that has allowed healers to feel engaged in encounters continues to be stripped from them. I don't even know what else they could take away other than give tanks and DPS the ability to sustain themselves, which we are not far off from.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

To be perfectly frank: I don't think constant pressure would feel much different, I come from WoW, where healing is (was? been a few years) designed more as a full time occupation. It can be fun, it can be intense (esp at lower item level when every extra heal puts you in conflict with your mana) but in easier content it feels no different than damage spam. Whether I mash the Cure II button or the Glare button is pretty irrelevant to me.

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I'd argue that since 95% of our kits now revolve around healing CD's it would feel more rewarding than one or two extra damage buttons.

I'm in a weird position on the fence about it. Ideally, I'd love to be a pure healer. If the gameplay actually called for it in a majority of content. Right now the most interesting thing for me to do is balance DPSing vs when to heal, which sure is a nice little challenge, but also not terribly difficult. I wouldn't be against them having more dps tools which brings to mind pre-shb scholar. I levelled it from 1-70 in stormblood though after I dropped it and played Astro only. Now I'm picking it up again because whm is an incredible snorefest as an alternative healer and I'm mourning the changes, lol. It's kind of sad but I had to constantly reassure the dps in my copied factory the other day that I didn't care that they were dying often because it's the only time I actually get to do my job.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

But what about the rest of the game?
But -a little- more danger should be in the cards, no? A little more incoming damage.

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Generally those kinds of mechanics and damage thresholds are sectioned off for a reason. Particularly with incoming damage because the Devs have to always balance that so that it's possible to complete with the set minimim ilvl (see: that bug with Mog King and Memento Moogle). Tbh, I don't think people would enjoy running a dungeon that forces you to min ilvl as a daily roulette.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

If content was a bit meaner, we would heal more.

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Not necessarily. Healing has always had that inherent flaw. If incoming damage necessitates spamming the Tier 1 Cure to keep the tank alive, then there isn't enough incoming damage to warrant spending GCDs using it. Regen and oGCDs handles that way more efficiently and with fewer button presses. If incoming damage necessitates both healers spamming AoE heals to keep the party alive, then you have TEA's Judgement Formation with both healers bottoming their MP within 45 seconds. Healing in this game just isn't built for sustained constant healing.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Add a few more DPS toys to move away from the "mash [1] for 28 seconds, then refresh your DoT" and it would be perfect.

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I'm all for this just to break the monotony lol.

Personally I love the gameplay healers had during 3.0 up until the end of 4.x. There was something rewarding about balancing out healing, supporting and DPSing. If you're good at balancing both heals and DPS and keeping the party alive to the best of your abilities, you're a good healer. If you focus too much on DPS or if you keep healing and then just stand when there's nothing else to do, that makes you a bad healer.

Now that they're all "streamlined", it just doesn't work. Healing is too easy now with the added skills/abilities and DPSing is now boring for having less. Your means of support was also simplified. There's not much tactical decisions involved in AST and SCH anymore.

I really don't get it either. The fights in this game isn't exactly designed for healers to constantly keep on healing. The devs said they're making healing much harder now or make healing more of the focus, but the exact opposite happened while making every other aspect in healers became boring and unenjoyable. The healer role is just terribly designed right now.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Current WoW is just spammy. If you played during BC as a Healer, Healing was about placing the right heal on the right person with an eye towards not overhealing (Massive threat gen you couldnt dump) and mana use, since MP restoration was very limited.

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I have and if you healed raids like Black Temple and Sunwell, you will have noticed that the majority were not happy with the healing design. It was extremely stressful. That's why the changed a lot of it in Wrath to make it less spammy and went to a design I very much disliked in Cataclysm and beyond: spending tiny weak ass heals as a filler and then having large CDs that make the HP bar move, barely being able to correct player errors etc.
Ugh, I felt so weak and powerless. Frustrating.

I think they could up the regular damage a bit in XIV.
Savage could be pimped by 30% (not the spike damage, mind you), lower end content I'd say by 200% + implementing more mechanics on trash, maybe even necessitating Crowd Control and deviating from these Wall to wall pulls ... (ok ok I'll show myself out now).
Seriously, non savage mobs hit like wet noodles with self esteem issues. :D

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Not necessarily. Healing has always had that inherent flaw. If incoming damage necessitates spamming the Tier 1 Cure to keep the tank alive, then there isn't enough incoming damage to warrant spending GCDs using it. Regen and oGCDs handles that way more efficiently and with fewer button presses. If incoming damage necessitates both healers spamming AoE heals to keep the party alive, then you have TEA's Judgement Formation with both healers bottoming their MP within 45 seconds. Healing in this game just isn't built for sustained constant healing.

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What if it necessitated regen AND Cure II spam?
You know, if autohits were actually a threat to the tank?

Some leveling dungeons feel that way, undergeared tanks in there are more interesting to heal than tanks in savage raids. Mobs hit like 40t trucks!

Why can't we have that in expert dungeons? Why do they have to be so easy, just so a few returnees can catch up?

As for the mana thing: you do realize that is just a balancing numbers game. Easy to fix. Very easy.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I really don't get it either. The fights in this game isn't exactly designed for healers to constantly keep on healing. The devs said they're making healing much harder now or make healing more of the focus, but the exact opposite happened

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The DEVs are simply put: too chicken to do major changes abruptly.
I can understand their PoV. If the goal is to make healing more difficult and get a more centered place, they need to change the concept gradually.
If you go from 20H/80D to sth like 80H/20D too abruptly, your players won't be able to cope. I'm not talking about you or me. We as (ex, in my case) raiders would adapt quickly because we have the skills and the experience to do so. Judging by what floats around in the duty finder, 95% of the regular players do not.
They would be alienated, overtaxed, frustrated.

The DEVs must guide these players. Give them time to adapt. Agreed, so far, their approach didn't work at all.
Non savage encounters do not hit hard enough, do not hit often enough and they seem to push gimmicky mechanics you need to adhere to above core gameplay, diverting a lot of the players focus (only so much of that to go around in non coordinated groups).

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Originally Posted by Granyala

What if it necessitated regen AND Cure II spam?
You know, if autohits were actually a threat to the tank?

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Then that falls under the latter. Too MP costly to actually be sustainable with the current battle system. This also feeds into the next point:

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Some leveling dungeons feel that way, undergeared tanks in there are more interesting to heal than tanks in savage raids. Mobs hit like 40t trucks!
Why can't we have that in expert dungeons? Why do they have to be so easy, just so a few returnees can catch up?

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Player progression balance. Levelling dungeons hit extremely hard because they need to scale them to fit player progression but also be balanced for players at the max ilvl cap for the previous expansion. You also don't have all your tools, so it's significantly more challenging. Expert Dungeons have to follow this rule too. They technically can set the difficulty higher and raise the minimum ilvl requirement, but how are players who are playing catch up going to unlock the more lucrative dungeons set at i530 when the only gear they have access to are i430 dungeon gear and old dungeons that give a paltry sum of 45 tomes per clear?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

As for the mana thing: you do realize that is just a balancing numbers game. Easy to fix. Very easy.

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Nope. Reducing MP costs across the board means access to more MP for Healers. Every encounter would have to be adjusted to accommodate this because you're essentially giving healers nigh infinite mp if not careful.

SE just needs to pick a side and stick with it rather than pretending to play both.

Healers don't have to DPS? Sure, I'm fine with that design decision, but they need to actually do it. The damage requirements to beat enrage is absolutely ludicrous if you were to expect healers not to contribute any damage. I certainly don't think I'm being mean when I say I can't expect that out of my PuG-mates. I don't think I can even expect myself to put out that level of damage consistently.

Conversely, admit that healers should be dealing damage and let us have fun with it.

I'm reminded a lot of BLU where they spread a lot of malcontent by saying BLU would be solo friendly and then made it the most group necessitating content they've ever created. Soloing Eureka is more reasonable than soloing BLU.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

SE just needs to pick a side and stick with it rather than pretending to play both.

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That's the black and white approach. It's not the answer, and I know this dev team can do better than that if they just give the role the attention it requires. I don't see the DPS aspect of healing and the healing requirement like this slider where giving to one takes away from the other. There is a way to appease both factions of healers, and they should have piles upon piles of data that shows what keeps healers feeling engaged to draw from. I continue to believe that they are making it more complicated than it actually has to be.

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Seriously, non savage mobs hit like wet noodles with self esteem issues.

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I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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Oh nooo, a couple dungeons with harder than usual hitting mobs.
A minuscule amount of such dungeons doesn't change the fact that a majority of mobs in this game don't hit that hard. Even if a tank isn't using their CDs on a trash pull you can still find time to DPS in just about every engagement. And I'm not even a raider lol, I'm fairly casual.

The tank is only ever at much risk of death in dungeons if they're pulling multiple packs at the same time.

A single pack in Bardam's Mettle or Holminster Switch still doesn't hit hard enough to make me need much more then Regen/Aspected Benefic to keep them up if they're actually using mitigation cooldowns.

What is genuinely stressful is a severely undergeared tank going into one of said instances with so little defense/HP that they can't take more then two sets of auto attacks without dying.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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That's rich, considering you're apparently skipping every level cap dungeon. But let's pretend like a couple of leveling dungeons per expansion are "the rest of the game".

Some of you 'casuals' need to actually pay attention to the game and go out of your comfort zone, not cower in fear of every little difficulty bump.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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To be fair, leveling dungeons will usually be harder than expert roulette dungeons simply because of leveling curve.

If you were i400 going into Hominster with DPS that can hit aoe buttons it's a cake walk. Not a common feat today.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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Bardam's Mettle and Holminster Switch's mobs hit microscopically harder than other dungeons. I still find plenty of time to spam art of war or gravity in big pulls on said dungeons, which - to be frank? Is most of those pulls. I'm not even a savage raider.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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Bardem's Mettle only hit hard if you did the super pull otherwise it was standard dungeon trash. Holminster Switch requires a little extra healing but nothing much. It was only rough on Astro in 5.0 because Astro healing was laughably weak compared to White Mage and Scholar.

And before you ask, I've tanked and healed both dungeons; doing the latter in sub i400 gear. And I'm not a great healer by any stretch.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That's the black and white approach. It's not the answer, and I know this dev team can do better than that if they just give the role the attention it requires. I don't see the DPS aspect of healing and the healing requirement like this slider where giving to one takes away from the other. There is a way to appease both factions of healers, and they should have piles upon piles of data that shows what keeps healers feeling engaged to draw from. I continue to believe that they are making it more complicated than it actually has to be.

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There is no theoretical perfect middle to this situation. The two sides are literally on opposite ends, and they directly appose each other.

There's healers that don't like dealing damage and there's healers that do like dealing damage, and the devs are doing a disservice to both camps by telling one side that they're right while mechanically enforcing the other.

It's like bowmage. There's people that liked it, and there's people that hate it, but making half of their skills have cast times wouldn't make things better because it's a non black and white approach. It just makes both camps angry.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

There is no theoretical perfect middle to this situation. The two sides are literally on opposite ends, and they directly appose each other.

There's healers that don't like dealing damage and there's healers that do like dealing damage, and the devs are doing a disservice to both camps by telling one side that they're right while mechanically enforcing the other.

It's like bowmage. There's people that liked it, and there's people that hate it, but making half of their skills have cast times wouldn't make things better because it's a non black and white approach. It just makes both camps angry.

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That's one camp dude, and it's also the approach that prevents circumventing this problem. That's why those two views directly oppose each other. The other camp are the healers who want to heal more. Within this camp you will find healers who do want more offensive skills in their kit, and don't mind doing damage during downtime; they just want less opportunity to use them during encounters due to an increased healing requirement.

Or are you not aware that these healers exist? Perhaps the devs don't either. Too focused on 'teh deeps'.

Bowmage is also a really bad example to use in this case. BRD needs that mobility, and cast times for them was simply a really stupid concept. That's why it is gone, and also redundant. Healers are casters, and you don't hear those same kind of complaints from BLM/RDM/SMN because they fully understand this aspect to their role. Yes, they have abilities to increase mobility as well, but that's not the point. The point is they don't complain all that much about having to cast abilities because their GCD usage is usually justified with high potency offensive skills. Taking away the need to cast anything with healers is a big part of the problem, as is demonizing any GCD that isn't used for damage. You would think that the healer role would be the one role where this is excused. Alas, it is not.

'GCD' should actually stand for 'Good Consistent Damage'. Not even kidding.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Oh nooo, a couple dungeons with harder than usual hitting mobs.
A minuscule amount of such dungeons doesn't change the fact that a majority of mobs in this game don't hit that hard. Even if a tank isn't using their CDs on a trash pull you can still find time to DPS in just about every engagement. And I'm not even a raider lol, I'm fairly casual.

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I mean, when a lot of players running expert dungeons are 40-60 ilvls ahead of the minimum to enter, it does makes for a massive difference in experience.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That's one camp dude, and it's also the approach that prevents circumventing this problem. That's why those two views directly oppose each other. The other camp are the healers who want to heal more. Within this camp you will find healers who do want more offensive skills in their kit, and don't mind doing damage during downtime; they just want less opportunity to use them during encounters due to an increased healing requirement.

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That's kind of the answer isn't it? Let the DPS skills be there. Those that want to use them can, those that want to ignore them can ignore them.

If the pure healers get fewer groups because groups want healers to DPS, that's a community decision.

In short: More options is almost always better than fewer options. Hell, even SE said so themselves, they didn't want to take away options but for some reason they did with healers.

https://i.imgur.com/TzNQfGE.gif

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Nope. Reducing MP costs across the board means access to more MP for Healers. Every encounter would have to be adjusted to accommodate this because you're essentially giving healers nigh infinite mp if not careful.

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Outside of rezzes (which should be prohibitively expensive), healers have infinite MP right now, so that point is completely moot.

You can very easily tune the mana to be sufficient for [unavoidable damage] + [desired compensation % for player error], any more compensating done on the side of the healer would drain his mana and punish the group later in the fight. This is how healing worked in WoW and it worked pretty well.

As for expert dungeon tuning: Once a new tier comes, the old tome gear can be bought for the scrip that are unlimited. So I see no reason whatsoever to not tune them to the target of the unaugmented old script gear. By halfing the cost of the old gear, newbies could very easily grind it out in the older dungeons, get ready for expert and expert could drop gear that was actually useful to them at the item level of the upgraded old tome gear.

Seriously, if you think this all can't be done, you lack imagination. The healing systems are fine, it's mostly the numbers that are tuned way too lax.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I guess you skipped Bardem's Mettle and Holminster Switch. Seriously some of you 'savage raiders' need to like gone some where, because you forgot how the rest of the game actually plays.

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No I didn't. I even did it with trust.
Easy.

Bardams mettle? Don't make me laugh. The only dangerous thing in there were undergeared tanks that thought: "imma awesome, imma pull EVERYTHING™"
That's true for any leveling dungeon though and that was also true for Academy Anyder when it was freshly released. Them big fish groups hid adequately hard on mass pulls and you know what? It was more fun than it is now.

Just putting my two senses here:

A healer's dps could mean the life or a wipe of an entire party. It DOES make a difference, even if it's just a few hits here and there with re-applying their DoT (or DoTs). I always dps when no one needs healing and/or is topped off. I only switch to pure healer is when there's a lot party-wide damage going out. But most of the time I'm in dps mode with the rest of the party. People need to get a bit out of their comfort zone and just dps. Dps when you find open windows. It makes a difference in a run with it bit being faster. So please, healers, dps when you find open windows.

Signed: a fellow casual healer.

I don't mind when healers DPS.

I object to attitudes about healer DPS when it's:

A) expected in all situations regardless of anything else that may be a consideration;
B) I have to play with healers who prioritize DPS over healing (and usually cause deaths/wipes).

I don't care if anyone wants to DPS as a healer, as long as healing is still their main priority.

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

Some healers aren't very well geared, some of their tanks are badly geared. Sometimes groups struggle with mechanics and the healer has to compensate (Every mechanic becomes a healer mechanic on a long enough time line!) and the healer dpsing just isn't always feasible, and I wish more people understood that.

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Originally Posted by Breezelyn

Just putting my two senses here:

A healer's dps could mean the life or a wipe of an entire party.

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If a healer dpsing literally means a wipe or not in "casual" content (as you describe yourself as a casual healer), there are very serious issues at play, because it's been stated many, many times that healer dps is never required to do any content; and only "useful" to groups pushing cutting edge endgame content to squeak a win out ahead of another group slightly faster.

Healer dps is a nice bonus, a cherry on your ice cream sundae, not the entire dang bowl of ice cream. You can live without it, it's just a little faster and a little nicer with it. It does not "mean the life or wipe of an entire party" unless your party has very, very bad dps or something.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

I don't mind when healers DPS.

I object to attitudes about healer DPS when it's:

A) expected in all situations regardless of anything else that may be a consideration;
B) I have to play with healers who prioritize DPS over healing (and usually cause deaths/wipes).

I don't care if anyone wants to DPS as a healer, as long as healing is still their main priority.

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

Some healers aren't very well geared, some of their tanks are badly geared. Sometimes groups struggle with mechanics and the healer has to compensate (Every mechanic becomes a healer mechanic on a long enough time line!) and the healer dpsing just isn't always feasible, and I wish more people understood that.

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I consider a healer that does 0 DPS bad in the same sense I consider a RDM that only spams jolt bad, or a DPS that only uses autos bad. Will it get you through the basic content? Sure, eventually, but it makes things take substantially longer. Healer DPS is nothing to scoff at right now, they're out DPSing tanks, (on a personal note, in a lot of my personal roulettes I've, allegedly, out DPSed a lot of the DPS too.) and if they're just spamming a level 1 cure they''re playing extremely poorly.

That's not to say I really care when I'm just doing roulettes, but it's hard not to notice.

As for Healer DPS not being a factor in clearing casual content? No duh, even DPS damage isn't a factor in clearing basic content. You could have a SAM use 2 GCDs the entire dungeon run and still clear it. Doesn't mean it's something to condone or something that shouldn't be pointed out. Maybe I'm of a different mindset though. I've never gotten upset when someone told me ways I could improve, or what I could be doing better, yet, when I've tried to tell a WHM that they shouldn't spam Medica II for every single heal they lashed out at me and wouldn't stop going on about what an "elistist" I am.

Meh, give people the option to do juggle healing and damage. If people want to play as a pure healer so be it they can find liked minded players that do not mind it.

However, those that enjoy playing as a healer have no option outside of playing a dps class, and when they are healing the other is to spam one or two buttons throughout the run.

I get more buttons does not mean more complex, but having more things to press beats having less. Granted I would just prefer them to bring back cleric stance swapping I enjoyed it greatly trying to maximize cleric uptime while not letting people die. Sure I let many tanks die pushing my limits at the start but it was fun, and created a clear divide between good and great players. Just as their is a clear divide between bad and good players.

In short give people the option to play how they want and let the community decide. Sure some players may be kicked from groups due to their play style differences but is that really an issue? All it means was the their was a difference in play style it is not inherently a personal attack or anything. Accept it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

If a healer dpsing literally means a wipe or not in "casual" content (as you describe yourself as a casual healer), there are very serious issues at play, because it's been stated many, many times that healer dps is never required to do any content; and only "useful" to groups pushing cutting edge endgame content to squeak a win out ahead of another group slightly faster.

Healer dps is a nice bonus, a cherry on your ice cream sundae, not the entire dang bowl of ice cream. You can live without it, it's just a little faster and a little nicer with it. It does not "mean the life or wipe of an entire party" unless your party has very, very bad dps or something.

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A healer that does zero DPS borders on completely worthless. If you had a Red Mage filling their spot or three DPS and a Paladin, that comp is both faster and more beneficial than a healer who stands around doing absolutely nothing but spamming useless heals. It's also a matter of principle. Why should DPS or tanks be expected to utilize their full kits but a healer isn't? More often than not it simply boils down to the healer multi-tasking Youtube, Netflix and etc. You're also vastly underestimating how much healers can contribute in an AoE situation. They can equal or surpass tanks. So by that logic, Dark Knight should be able to do an Unleash combo and afk, right? After all, they've established aggro.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

If a healer dpsing literally means a wipe or not in "casual" content (as you describe yourself as a casual healer), there are very serious issues at play, because it's been stated many, many times that healer dps is never required to do any content; and only "useful" to groups pushing cutting edge endgame content to squeak a win out ahead of another group slightly faster.

Healer dps is a nice bonus, a cherry on your ice cream sundae, not the entire dang bowl of ice cream. You can live without it, it's just a little faster and a little nicer with it. It does not "mean the life or wipe of an entire party" unless your party has very, very bad dps or something.

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Hasn't this been debunked a bunch of times (for high-end content)? Even if it is possible to meet DPS checks with healers doing 0 dmg, it will be significantly more difficult, good luck doing that in Party Finder or midtier groups.

Healer DPS makes things easier for everybody by virtue of killing the boss faster and thus having to deal with less mechanics, which means less damage to heal through and less risk of people dying and needing to be revived.

Fights like Bismark and the golem in Qarn that have vulnerability periods are made especially less tedious with healer DPS as you're probably not going to be able to one/two cycle them respectively unless your healer(s) are contributing, which adds an additional minute or two to the fight.